Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

kgwithnob

Salaam All,

The HAJJ pilgrimage has been incessantly performed since the time of the prophet Abraham up until today and is going to continue ceaselessly to the end of time on this Earth. Unless we assume that, there has been a noticeable interruption on a global scale for several generations that had made the new generations to forget about this very important global ritual and its place of performance, then the ?claim" of Jerusalem being the original location of ALMASJIDILHARAAM & The Qiblah might be a correct assumption.

Now, do we have any historical, NOT ?archeological?, recorded evidence of such a global historical ?EVENT?, supporting that assumption? I have not heard about it. If someone has, then let us know, so we can debate on it. Till then, we have to say that, historically & logically; ALMASJIDILHARAAM is located in the city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia, with the Ka?bah right in the middle of its courtyard.

Peace,
Khalil

raginggaijin

This is the superstition I have to deal with...

Highlights above are from me.

According to the verses below, among numerous other ones, humans & jinns are two completely different creations, both ESSENTIALLY & CHRONOLOGICALLY.

5514

He created man of clay like the potter's.

5515

And the jinn did He create of smokeless fire.

1526

And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.

1527

And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.

I want you to notice what you just posted

"We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire."

The Jinn were created before the Nasi.

I also want you to note you are using the Arabic word for 'Jinn', but you translate (Nasi) into 'Man'. So already a deception is occurring. But we'll get to that.

Jinn were created before Nasi, which shows Nasi are successors of the Jinn. This is upheld in the Quran.

Successor (Khalif) Surah 230, 3170, 49, 6133, 6165, 717, 769, 774, 7142, 7150, 7169, 9118, 1014, 1073, 1092, 1311, 1959, 2128, 2276, 2762, 349, 3539, 369, 3645, 3826, 4114, 4125, 4142, 4360, 4621, 6715, 7227
?And when thy Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a successor (khaleefatan).' They said, 'What, wilt Thou set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Thy praise and call Thee Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'? Surah 230

"What, do you wonder that a reminder from your Lord should come to you by the lips of a man from among you? That he may warn you; and remember when He appointed you as successors (khulafaa) after the people of Noah, and increased you in stature broadly; remember God's bounties; haply you will prosper.'" Surah 769

"And there succeeded after them a succession who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?" Surah 7169

"And to the three who were left behind (khullifoo), until, when the earth became strait for them, for all its breadth, and their souls became strait for them, and they thought that there was no shelter from God except in Him, then He turned towards them, that they might also turn; surely God turns, and is All-compassionate." Surah 9118

"Had We willed, We would have made angels among you successors (yakhlufoona) in the earth." Surah 4360

Allah states clearly Nasi are made from the seed of another people.

"Thy Lord is All-sufficient, Merciful. If He will, He can put you away, and leave after you, to succeed you (wayastakhlif), what He will, as He produced you from the seed (dhurriyyati) of another (kharna) people (qawmin)." Surah 6133

He even gives details how Adam (pbuh) was made.

?He is the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible, the All-mighty, the All-compassionate, Who has created all things well. And He originated the creation of humans (al-insani) of clay (min teenin), then He fashioned his descendant (naslahu) of an extraction (sulalatin) of low (maheenin) water (ma-in), then He shaped (sawwahu) him, and breathed His spirit (roohihi) in him. And He appointed for you hearing, and sight, and hearts; little thanks you show.? Surah 326-9

There is only one Nasi spoken of in the Quran who was shaped and had Allah's ruh breathed into him - Adam (pbuh) Surah 1529, 329, 3872

If all human beings sprung from the joining of one couple, Allah would not make distinction between the bloodline of the Prophets (pbut), as we all would be from the seed of Adam (pbuh).

(dhurriyyat&#299 offspring Surah 2124, 2128, 2266, 334, 336, 338, 49, 684, 687, 6133, 7172, 7173, 1083, 1338, 1437, 1440, 173, 1762, 1850, 1958, 2927, 3641, 3777, 37113, 4615, 5221, 5726
Seed of Adam Surah 333, 683-87, 7172, 172-3, 1958. 5726

?We have honoured the Children of Adam and carried them on land and sea, and provided them with good things, and preferred them greatly over many of those We created.? Surah 1770

"That is Our argument, which We bestowed upon Abraham as against his people. We raise up in degrees whom We will; surely thy Lord is All-wise, All-knowing.
And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob -- each one We guided, And Noah We guided before; and of his seed (dhurriyyatihi) David and Solomon, Job and Joseph, Moses and Aaron -- even so We recompense the good-doers -- Zachariah and John, Isa and Elias; each was of the righteous; Ishmael and Elisha, Jonah and Lot - each one We preferred above all beings; and of their fathers, and of their seed (wadhurriyytihim), and of their brethren (wa-ikh'wnihim); and We elected them, and We guided them to a straight path." Surah 683-87

"And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.' The seed (dhurriyyata) of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant." Surah 172-3

"These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping." Surah 1958

"And We sent Noah, and Abraham, and We appointed the Prophecy and the Book to be among their seed (dhurriyyatihim and some of them are guided, and many of them are ungodly." Surah 5726

The Jinn are human beings.

Jinn are Christians ? Byzantines ? who accepted the Quran Surah 721-18
Jinn are Yahudians ? Persians ? who accepted the Quran Surah 4629-30
Jew and Christian polytheists who lead astray Surah 2105, 2120, 2135, 2140, 367, 395, 3151, 3186, 582, 6106, 6137, 6161, 931-33, 10105, 16120, 2217, 981-6

Jinn are foreigners among Nasi Surah 6128-131, 2217, 3412-13, 738, 7179
'Ajam' ? ?Non-Arab? or ?Persian? Surah 16103, 4144, 26198
Roman-Persian wars Surah 302-4, 1051-5
Solomon?s Jinn in Quran Surah 2716-41, 3412-13
Solomon's Jinn in previous Books I Kings 513-17, II Chron. 217-18, II Chron. 44-6

But, but, but... They are made of SMOKELESS FIRE!!!!!!!111111111oneoneoneoneleventeen.

The same people who uphold these superstitious beliefs are often among the many who point to the scientific miracles in the Quran.

One such miracle is Surah 2130

"Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?" Surah 2130

This is from the Arberry Quran, translated in 1950. The Yusuf Ali Quran, translated in the 1920s reads

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Surah 2130

In 1978, the Nobel Prize was awarded for the theory of the Big Bang. This theory postulates that the universe was one mass - a monoblock - that was blown apart and sent out into the void.

Press release for 1978 Nobel Peace Prize
http//nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1978/press.html

"A theory developed by the American physicist Gamow and his associates suggested that this synthesis took place at the beginning of the existence of the universe. It is known from studies of the spectra of stars and galaxies that the universe is at present expanding uniformly. This means that at a certain point, 15 billion years ago, the universe was very compact; it is thus tempting to assume that the universe was created by a cosmic explosion, or 'big bang', although other explanations are possible. This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees. Only at those temperatures can various nuclear reactions take place such that chemical elements could be built up from the elementary particles assumed to be present from the very beginning."

Here Scientists - the largest group of unbelievers I know of who cannot believe in something without proof - are showing how the components of all life and matter in the universe was created in this one Big Bang of intense heat and expansion.

Let's repeat that "This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees."
This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees.
This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees.

Jinn created before Nasi of a released, scorching fire Surah 1527, 5515
?And He created (Wakhalaqa) the jinn of (aljanna min) release (marijin) of fire (min narin).? Surah 5515
?and the jinn created We before of fire scorching (alssamoomi).? Surah 1527

While someone who upholds superstition sees evil fire creatures lurking in the aether, I see the intense heat of the Big Bang creating the components of all life itself.

You would think, if the Quran still speaks of the Jinn, there would be some way to know them from the Nasi. After all, Allah makes it clear in Surah 1145-6 that the Jinn are part of the Nasi

"Allathee yuwaswisu fee sudoori alnnasi Mina aljinnati waalnnasi" 1145-6
"who whispers in the breasts of nasi, of jinn and nasi.'" Surah 1145-6

If we are ALL Nasi, but there are still Jinn in and among the Nasi, there must be some indication of these Jinn that still remains if they are humans, right? If the Quran says it, then we should find some indication of it.

Neanderthal DNA still found in modern Homo Sapiens

Neanderthals, Humans Interbred?First Solid DNA Evidence
"The next time you're tempted to call some oaf a Neanderthal, you might want to take a look in the mirror.
According to a new DNA study, most humans have a little Neanderthal in them?at least 1 to 4 percent of a person's genetic makeup.
The study uncovered the first solid genetic evidence that "modern" humans?or Homo sapiens?interbred with their Neanderthal neighbors, who mysteriously died out about 30,000 years ago.
What's more, the Neanderthal-modern human mating apparently took place in the Middle East, shortly after modern humans had left Africa, not in Europe?as has long been suspected."

Read more http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

Study Neanderthal DNA Lives On in Modern Humans
"Still, other paleoanthropologists say the discovery is not entirely unexpected. There is ample archaeological evidence ? including tools, habitation sites and fossils ? that Neanderthals and early modern humans may have coexisted in the Middle East as much as 80,000 years ago, and certainly in Europe 30,000 to 45,000 years ago. What has been missing until now is the genetic evidence.

"The fact that they found it across the board says that the evidence must be very widespread across modern humans," says Erik Trinkaus, an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis, Mo., who has long argued that the human fossils he has studied in France, Romania, the Czech Republic and other places show mixed ancestry. "If you can find evidence after 30,000 years of genetic shifting, then it must have been pretty important or prominent then." Trinkaus speculates that the genetic flow between Neanderthals and early modern humans might have been as high as 10% to 20%.
The new finding may prompt a tweaking of the well-known Out of Africa theory, which in its strictest interpretation says a small group of early modern humans left Africa and outcompeted and replaced all other hominids without any interbreeding. The alternate theory, known as multiregionalism, argues that distinct populations of modern humans developed simultaneously around the world and along the same evolutionary lines by swapping genes.
"What we falsify here is the very hard Out of Africa theory," said P??bo. "We show that outside Africa there is this 1% to 4% that came from archaic humans. Of course, it's totally possible that archaic forms that we don't know contributed to Africans today. I don't think we should take this as evidence that only people outside Africa have some 'caveman' biology within them."
According to Trinkaus, many paleoanthropologists have long believed that early modern humans and Neanderthals interbred. "People have been saying this for decades," he argues. "The minority position was the position that there was no gene flow. Most people who work with the fossil record support some level of admixture."

Whatever our mixing, it is human uniqueness that has also been revealed by the sequencing. By comparing the Neanderthal genome with those of modern humans, the team identified a small number of genetic changes that were newly evolved in modern humans. Some of the changes may have arisen as a result of genetic drift, but others seem to have been positively selected for ? meaning they swept through populations rapidly, possibly because they gave us some advantage."

Read more http//www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568-2,00.html

So we do find remnants of the Jinn - Neanderthal man - who was created before Homo Sapien man. We find this in the DNA of Homo Sapien - the Nasi.

I don't believe in a 'Creation' theory, where 'man' was poof suddenly made after an old man in a beard rolled up his sleeves and sculpted him.
I don't believe in a 'Evolution' theory, where 'man' is a series of lucky breaks in evolutionary shifts in such a manner that it is a leap of faith in and of itself.
I believe in an Intervention theory, where Allah guided the path of each successor. Allah says 'Be' and it is, and it is in accord with the Sunnah He has instilled into this world. A world that upholds logic, reason, and evidence-based research.

Why would someone want to hide that Jinn are humans, who hold the same ties to Nasi?

"Say 'If the Last Abode with God is yours exclusively, and not for other people, then long for death -- if you speak truly.'" Surah 294
"Say 'You of Jewry, if you assert that you are the friends of God, apart from other men, then do you long for death, if you speak truly.'" Surah 626

Hebrew ?nasi? president, prince, ruler
Lev. 422, Eze. 442-18, Ezra 18

What are the common translations for 'Nasi' in Arabic men, people, rulers/viceroys

From the Babylonian Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean&quot, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Baba Kamma 113a Jews may use lies ("subterfuges&quot to circumvent a Gentile.
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Baba Mezia 24a If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen&quot it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

It's the same false teachings recycled into what is taught in the religions of man.

"Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings saying, 'We have heard and we disobey' and 'Hear, and be thou not given to hear' and 'Observe us,' twisting with their tongues and traducing religion. If they had said, 'We have heard and obey' and 'Hear' and 'Regard us,' it would have been better for them, and more upright; but God has cursed them for their unbelief so they believe not except a few." Surah 446

"People of the Book, now there has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book, and effacing many things. There has come to you from God a light, and a Book Manifest" Surah 515

"Then the evildoers of them substituted a saying other than that which had been said to them; so We sent down upon them wrath out of heaven for their evildoing." Surah 7162

And let's not forget the Birds.

?And Solomon was David's heir, and he said, 'Nasi (alnnasu), we have been taught the speech of the birds (alttayri), and we have been given of everything; surely this is indeed the manifest bounty.'? Surah 2716

Solomon wasn't the only person who knew 'the speech of birds'. The Nasi were taught it as well.
Phoenicia(from the Greek Greek Phoin?k&#275, was an ancient civilization in Canaan which covered most of the western, coastal part of the fertile Crescent. "Phoenicia" is really a Classical Greek term used to refer to the region of the major Canaanite port towns, and does not correspond exactly to a cultural identity that would have been recognised by the Phoenicians themselves. It is uncertain to what extent the Phoenicians viewed themselves as a single ethnicity. Their civilization was organized in city-states, similar to ancient Greece. However In terms of archaeology, language, life style and religion, there is little to set the Phoenicians apart as markedly different from other cultures of Canaan. As Canaanites, they were unique in their remarkable seafaring achievements.
Around 1600 B.C. the Phoenicians invented 22 ?magic signs? called the alphabet, and passed them onto the world. The Phoenicians gave the alphabet to the Greeks who adopted it; the evolution of the Phoenician Alphabet to Etruscan alphabet to the Latin letters of present-day. The Phoenicians were the first state-level society to make extensive use of the alphabet. The Phoenician phonetic alphabet is generally believed to be the ancestor of almost all modern alphabets, although it did not contain any vowels (these were added later by the Greeks). From a traditional linguistic perspective, they spoke Phoenician, a Canaanite dialect. However, due to the very slight differences in language, and the insufficient records of the time, whether Phoenician formed a separate and united dialect, or was merely a superficially defined part of a broader language continuum, is unclear. Through their maritime trade, the Phoenicians spread the use of the alphabet to North Africa and Europe, where it was adopted by the Greeks, who later passed it on to the Etruscans, who in turn transmitted it to the Romans.

Hudhud, aka 'Hoopoe' - the bird with the crest on it's head?

http//creagrus.home.montereybay.com/Hoopoe_madj-crest.jpg

A Greek helmet
http//www.lawrensnest.com/images/GRK6058BP.jpg

(The Hoopoe is also Israel's National Bird, for those interested.)

The Phoenicans were assimilated into the Greek empire, which was assimilated into the Roman empire to become the Byzantine Empire. What is the flag of the Byzantine Empire?

http//www.glogster.com/media/4/13/31/47/13314752.png

But hey, I'm the crazy one. Right?

Furthermore, chapter 55 in its entirety addresses the HUMANS & JINNS as two different beings and each will end up in one of the TWO SEPARATE paradises each deserves.

5538

So on that Day no question will be asked of man or jinni as to his sin, .

5546

But for him who fears the standing before his Lord, there will be two Gardens.

This is where your superstition gets you into trouble, as you lay your beliefs over what is actually taught.

There are 3 types of people described in the Quran.

3 types of people Surah 746-48, 567-11

The Foremost
The People of the Right Hand
The People of the Left Hand

The Foremost/Outstrippers are
"a throng of the ancients and how few of the later folk." Surah 5613-14

The People of the Right Hand are
"A throng of the ancients and a throng of the later folk." Surah 5639-40

Allah names both partitions, 'The ancients (al-awwaleena) and the later folk (waal-akhireena)' in Surah 5649
The People of the Left Hand abide in the Fire. Surah 5649-56

The two Gardens are for the Foremost and the People of the Right Hand.

The Foremost are in elevated rank, and are in better reward in the Hereafter. Allah teaches of the believers in Paradise, those in the Ramparts, and those in the Fire

"The inhabitants of Paradise will call to the inhabitants of the Fire 'We have found that. which our Lord promised us true; have you found what your Lord promised you true?' 'Yes,' they will say. And then a herald shall proclaim between them 'God's curse is on the evildoers
who bar from God's way, desiring to make it crooked, disbelieving in the world to come.
And between them is a veil, and on the Ramparts are men knowing each by their mark, who shall call to the inhabitants of Paradise 'Peace be upon you! They have not entered it, for all their eagerness.'" Surah 744-46

So the Ramparts are one Garden for the Foremost, while the other Garden is for the People of the Right Hand, who are believers but are not foremost in deeds.

Now, you are more than welcome to believe in invisible fire spirits, and that Allah sculpted a man out of clay and made him come alive like Pinocchio, and that Prophets (pbut) were able to speak to birds in a Walt Disney fashion.
But don't expect me to believe it when there is no proof for it.

Bring your proof, then post it here so we are not derailing this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602635.msg281831#msg281831

Peace.

raginggaijin

Peace and blessings be upon you and yours,

If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for th direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper.

The issue also lies in that Jerusalem does not allow sacrifices to be made within the precincts of the Temple, much less in the Dome of the Rock or Jerusalem. Sacrifices have been halted since the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

The ploy of the Yahud playing at being Muslims is an old trick. The attempts at division between Mecca and Jerusalem began during the time of Muhammad (pbuh), as proven by the Masjid made to divide the believers Masjid Al-Qiblatan aka The Mosque of Two Qiblahs. Surah 9107

Allah even states

"The buildings they have built will not cease to be a point of doubt within their hearts, unless it be that their hearts are cut into pieces; God is All-knowing, All-wise." Surah 9110

The shift to a qiblah inside Masjid Al-Haram occurred by those who came after. Hadith teaches to face the Kaaba, not Masjid Al-Haram - the Masjid that surrounds the Kaaba.

"Stand there never. A mosque that was founded upon godfearing from the first day is worthier for thee to stand in; therein are men who love to cleanse themselves; and God loves those who cleanse themselves." Surah 9108

Allah is clear the qiblah would be a difficult test except for those who He guides.

"Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom God has guided; but God would never leave your faith to waste - truly, God is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate." Surah 2143

Even now, ask any person who calls themselves 'Muslim' what their qiblah is, and then ask them to show you the building.
How many point to the Kaaba, Bayt al-Atiq, Bayt al-Haram?
How many point to the building that surrounds the Kaaba, called Masjid Al-Haram?

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149

I'm not of the doubters.
My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram.

May Allah guide us closer to the Truth.

Peace.

Layth

Dear Stilllearning,

So it is accepted that
(i) Message of the Quran had spread far during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohd.
(ii) Followers of the Quran to go on Pilgramage/Hajj
(iii) Muslims to pray/salat in a given direction

That is not accurately what I have responded, but I will jump to the subject of your post to save time.

These are very important and fundemental issues which Prophet Mohd must have propogated to his followers. Therefore Muslims in his lifetime must have been aware of where to go for Hajj and in which direction to perform Salat. If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for the direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper. Are we seriuosly to believe that every Muslim at the time was so gullible that they accepted this huge and monumental shift away from the teachings of Prophet Mohd. Surely historically there must be some record of this or some splinter group who objected to this massive corruption and hence consider the Qibla as stated by Layth.

I understand from your post you are arguing that we should "follow the majority" and therefore agree that if the group consensus says a certain thing, then that must be accurate?

Thus, using your same logic, we should surrender to the fact that "Jesus is the son of God" because the majority (if not nearly all) Christians say so. And, since Jesus spread his message to various cities at the time, was around for a number of years preaching his message - then it must be true?

This is what God tells us about the "majority"

6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

As for the other part that you have also missed...It is God's Sunna/Way that after every prophet is sent, the devil is allowed to make corruption in his teachings so as to lead people astray

6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - mankind and Jinn devils - to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.

Finally, before making sarcastic comments about this fact not being known until the 22nd century, a little reading in the Quran and in history would have set your path straight

Quran talks about a Qibla shift during the life of the prophet;
Archaeology records the first Qibla as Jerusalem - a fact undisputed by nearly all sects;
Quranic verses match the area of Jerusalem as the site for the Masjid Al-Haram (not Mecca);
Quran even calls such place "Bakka" - a name common to Jerusalem, but not to Mecca;
Early Muslims had a civil war in which they slaughtered one another - obviously over some major issues;
Muslim Khalifa (AbdulMalik Bin Marwan) sent an army to destroy the Mecca worshipers and to destroy the Kaaba - while at the same time renovating and decorating the Dome of the Rock.

there are so many other points that have been rained in this thread that you can read at your leisure...But the first step is to let go of your attachment to the "majority" and stick rather to the "truth".

Layth

Salam,

Now, do we have any historical, NOT ?archeological?, recorded evidence of such a global historical ?EVENT?, supporting that assumption? I have not heard about it. If someone has, then let us know, so we can debate on it. Till then, we have to say that, historically & logically; ALMASJIDILHARAAM is located in the city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia, with the Ka?bah right in the middle of its courtyard.

You mean like the fact the Old Testament speaks of pilgrimage to Jerusalem (not Mecca) and that people were facing it in their Salat?

Pilgrimage to Mecca before the 8th or 9th century have no record of ever occurring (keep in mind Abraham was nearly 7,000 years ago). As for Jerusalem, we have records of its pilgrimage dating back to Roman times (2,000 years back) and even older in the Old Testament (a Book 5,000-6,000 or so years old).

Bigmo

AOA
So it is accepted that
(i) Message of the Quran had spread far during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohd.
(ii) Followers of the Quran to go on Pilgramage/Hajj
(iii) Muslims to pray/salat in a given direction

These are very important and fundemental issues which Prophet Mohd must have propogated to his followers. Therefore Muslims in his lifetime must have been aware of where to go for Hajj and in which direction to perform Salat. If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for th direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper. Are we seriuosly to believe that every Muslim at the time was so gullible that they accepted this huge and monumental shift away from the teachings of Prophet Mohd. Surely historically there must be some record of this or some splinter group who objected to this massive corruption and hence consider the Qibla as stated by Layth.
Regards

I have talked about this in the Hadith Discussion section when discussing difference between Hadith and Sunnah. I call it "hidden assumptions". Koranist from a Muslim background suffer from this. We assume that there was no pluralism at Muhammad's time or that there was no different way to pray or even different Qiblas. We assume that there was a common standard ritual and therefore we make assumptions as the one you did. I also relied on such assumptions but there is no reason why the early Muslims could had different Qiblas and performed Haj variantly and some may not have even believed in performing Haj. In such a scenario later authorities could have had an easier time manufacturing a standard ritual as there wasn't an already standard ritual for them to change but simply to create one.

Think about that.

Patanahi

Yesterday, I was listening to an audio CD (a lecture by a Javed Ahmed Ghamdi ? translation of Quranic verses 2134 ? 2143). From what I understood or misunderstood that he emphasized about the context of change of Qiblah by referring to verses 2134141 whereby Allah?s message was rejected by Yahud and Nasara due their prejudice.
As a result, they were deprived by Allah of their (earlier elevated) status including the change of Qiblah from previously followed on to the one now prescribed by Allah after depriving rejecters off their elevated status due to their rejection.
Therefore, upon enquiry by ?Al Sufahao? about change from previous Qiblah (2142) (i.e. the Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier), Allah guided believers how to respond to their query. And then Allah explained in 2143 why He initially ordered believers to follow previous Qiblah (ie Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier) just to test if new comers would follow Messenger in obeying Allah?s order.
To summarize, upon attaining Itmm al-hujjah (various verses in chapter 2 that ended on 2141) on Yahud and Nasara, Allah deprived the rejecters from the earlier recognized status and guided believers to follow prescribed Qiblah which is in practice till today.

Just wanted to share my understanding with you people and would like to have feedback from all who can help me gain some understanding of the matter.

Regarding one of the posts from Bigmo, asking me why I need to be specific or too concerned about the Qibla location. Actually since Masjid Al Haram is our Qiblah, therefore, I understand that we can take Salat from there, which means I get justification for following the time/way/form of salat as it is offered in Masjid Al Haram (based on one of the lectures of IIPC.tv (Muhammad Sheikh)).

Bigmo

Yesterday, I was listening to an audio CD (a lecture by a Javed Ahmed Ghamdi ? translation of Quranic verses 2134 ? 2143). From what I understood or misunderstood that he emphasized about the context of change of Qiblah by referring to verses 2134141 whereby Allah?s message was rejected by Yahud and Nasara due their prejudice.
As a result, they were deprived by Allah of their (earlier elevated) status including the change of Qiblah from previously followed on to the one now prescribed by Allah after depriving rejecters off their elevated status due to their rejection.
Therefore, upon enquiry by ?Al Sufahao? about change from previous Qiblah (2142) (i.e. the Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier), Allah guided believers how to respond to their query. And then Allah explained in 2143 why He initially ordered believers to follow previous Qiblah (ie Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier) just to test if new comers would follow Messenger in obeying Allah?s order.
To summarize, upon attaining Itmm al-hujjah (various verses in chapter 2 that ended on 2141) on Yahud and Nasara, Allah deprived the rejecters from the earlier recognized status and guided believers to follow prescribed Qiblah which is in practice till today.

Just wanted to share my understanding with you people and would like to have feedback from all who can help me gain some understanding of the matter.

Regarding one of the posts from Bigmo, asking me why I need to be specific or too concerned about the Qibla location. Actually since Masjid Al Haram is our Qiblah, therefore, I understand that we can take Salat from there, which means I get justification for following the time/way/form of salat as it is offered in Masjid Al Haram (based on one of the lectures of IIPC.tv (Muhammad Sheikh)).

Then ask Ghamdi about this verse

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing

raginggaijin

Then ask Ghamdi about this verse

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing

The qiblah is only an indication of whose teachings you say you are following.

Face Jerusalem Yahudian and Nazarene.
Don't face a qiblah Sabine Christian.
Face a fire Zoroastrian.
Face the Kaaba Islamist
Face Masjid Al-Haram Muslim.

It isn't righteousness to face a qiblah. Righteousness is the deeds you do that show if you are upholding the teachings you profess to be following, or not.

Peace.

stillearning

Dear Layth
Please accept my apology as I am traveling & only access to the net is my phone but I am struggling with copy and paste option. Hence u may have to read my original post.

If I assumed incorrectly from your answers then I stand to be corrected. However given your answers I reached what I felt was an accurate conclusion as wanted to establish commonly agreed principles.
I have no idea how you understood from my post that I was arguing that we should follow the majority. I suggest you read my post again.
However your half baked attempt with reference to different Muslim groups fighting each other makes me think perhaps you did understand the point I was trying to make. Your answer does not in any way explain why there's not even a tiny hint of dissent of this monsterous corruption in the religion which you yourself accepted, had spread afar in the lifetime of its original messenger. You are the only source (i am aware of) in over 1500 yrs who has reached this conclusion.
Forget your preoccupation with majority/minority and try to logically explain how Muslimd/historians worldover were brainwashed in one single swoop. Do you not think even the non Muslim academics may have raised eyebrows such a monumental event.

Salam Kgwithknob
You have perhaps summarised the point better than I.

Salam bigmo
I did think about the points you raised. I am afraid I did think much about them. Just deem more and more outlandish theories to justify an illogical stance taken by vast majority on this site.

Regards

herbman

Salam all,

what makes you think SALAT is linked to Qibla?

Peace

Bigmo

Salam all,

what makes you think SALAT is linked to Qibla?

Peace

Good point. Probably because the verses have references to Jews and Jews have a Qibla linked to Salat. But good point.

raginggaijin

Salam all,

what makes you think SALAT is linked to Qibla?

Peace

?Say 'My Lord has commanded justice. Set your faces (wujoohakum) in every place of worship (masjidin) and call on Him (waodAAoohu), making your religion (alddeena) sincerely His. As He originated you so you will return;? Surah 729

Peace.

Layth

Dear Stilllearning,

I have read and responded to your comment, and I ask that you re-read what you have written since you seem to be unsure what you want.

We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?

If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!

Your stance is basically saying, OK, I know the Quran may be saying this, but lets look to the masses for guidance.

Did I not share with you verses saying that the majority are led astray? did I not share a verse stating that the devils will be allowed to pollute the message of every prophet? Did I not share with you the false Christian doctorine for an answer to your question on how the masses can be led astray with none being the wiser?

Let us all please stick to the Quran for evidence and not be emotional about what others before us may/maynot have done.

2134 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.

Student_of_Allah

Dear Stilllearning,

I have read and responded to your comment, and I ask that you re-read what you have written since you seem to be unsure what you want.

We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?

If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!

Your stance is basically saying, OK, I know the Quran may be saying this, but lets look to the masses for guidance.

Did I not share with you verses saying that the majority are led astray? did I not share a verse stating that the devils will be allowed to pollute the message of every prophet? Did I not share with you the false Christian doctorine for an answer to your question on how the masses can be led astray with none being the wiser?

Let us all please stick to the Quran for evidence and not be emotional about what others before us may/maynot have done.

2134 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.

Salam,

Sorry for going offtopic, but did you receive my PM ?

PEACE

--------------- Student of Allah

Bigmo

Dear Stilllearning,

I have read and responded to your comment, and I ask that you re-read what you have written since you seem to be unsure what you want.

We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?

If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!

Your stance is basically saying, OK, I know the Quran may be saying this, but lets look to the masses for guidance.

Did I not share with you verses saying that the majority are led astray? did I not share a verse stating that the devils will be allowed to pollute the message of every prophet? Did I not share with you the false Christian doctorine for an answer to your question on how the masses can be led astray with none being the wiser?

Let us all please stick to the Quran for evidence and not be emotional about what others before us may/maynot have done.

2134 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.

I think you are talking about the bearing of sins (no soul should bear the sins of another). However the Koran does talk a lot about past prophets and past events and it does recognize the previous scriptures. The Koran also says we do not bear the sin of our parents and spouses who we can be living with. As the case with the Pharoah and his wife and Lot and Noah and their wives. The Koran I think refered to the majority Israelites as being astray (or rather disbelievers) and not Christians.

Layth

Salam Student,

I did...it seems to be a strange glitch (I was also able to see you as having 8 messages - so our IP's must have crossed).

It seems sorted out now.

Dear Bigmo,

The verse I quoted talks about "responsibility" for the actions/thoughts of the people before us (which we clearly are not) - thus to be concerned with finding commonality with the previous generations - while neglecting God's verses - is asking to be misled.

stillearning

Dear Layth

We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?

Correct! However 12 pages of this thread, and countless other discussions it seems there is a lack of agreement as to what the Quran has to say on the subject.

If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!
ar Layth

I am astonished that you fail to grasp the simple point that if at any period in history such a fundemental shift in belief occured not one person appears to have objected to this. Fight against falsehood is not confined to any period of time. Humans (often v tiny minorities) have always resisted against corruption of any kind.

Quran talks about using one's intelligence. Using this criteria do you not think there would be some historical evidence that this event occured somewhere in the history in of approx last 1500yrs.

Your whole flawed argument is based on some obsecure archaelogical evidence which only you appear to have interperted in a particular manner.
As as I am not an archaeclogist (& have no idea as to your expertise in this area) it is difficult for me to discuss the arcaecological evidence with you. However anyone with the very limited understanding of research will explain that even the well established principles in any given field can often be interperted in a contradictory manner. Yet you seem to want turn the entire Islamic history on its head by few flimsy archaelogical statements which even with my limited knowldge sound as credible as a second hand car salesman. As for it being Quranic evidence the discussions on this thread have been more than sufficent to debunk this myth (if the evidence presented here is viewed with an open mind and objectively)