Question for my brothers and sisters
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Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it.
Peace be with you,
Can you show me this ayat?
I only know we are not to ridicule anyone
"O believers, let not any people scoff at another people who may be better than they; neither let women scoff at women who may be better than themselves. And find not fault with one another, neither revile one another by nicknames. An evil name is ungodliness after belief. And whoso repents not, those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 4911Peace.
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Peace Albo, mire se vjen!
To quote Thomas Jefferson ?I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.?
Conformity concerns me little and find many who study Qur'an are careless and most all translations atrocious.
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Brother raginggaijinn, That verse sums it up. One should be mindful cause calling someone believer or disbeliever is wrong. Only Allah knows our hearts. Among the Quran alone muslims. though as you have noticed many have their own ideas. and if any of them or us. call eachother kaffir cause they dont believe our research. It is wrong. because it adds insult to injury. Because If one is better then the other who called him a non believer it only hurts his own soul. If someone turns to non besides Allah and seeks refuge in him alone and works righteousness, no one should call them kaffir. because this is an insult just the same.
Ans Seid si je? I didnt know any other Albanians existed on here lol. Salamun Alaykum
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Brother raginggaijinn, That verse sums it up. One should be mindful cause calling someone believer or disbeliever is wrong. Only Allah knows our hearts. Among the Quran alone muslims. though as you have noticed many have their own ideas. and if any of them or us. call eachother kaffir cause they dont believe our research. It is wrong. because it adds insult to injury. Because If one is better then the other who called him a non believer it only hurts his own soul. If someone turns to non besides Allah and seeks refuge in him alone and works righteousness, no one should call them kaffir. because this is an insult just the same.
I disagree with your interpretation.
Allah states we are not to revile others or call them names. To call someone a dbag or fg c***-*******g sunuvva ***** would be reviling, and wrong.Yet Allah makes clear their descriptions in the Quran, even calling them by the titles you may find distasteful Disbeliever. Hypocrite. Ignorant.
"And when Moses said to his people, 'God commands you to sacrifice a cow.' They said, 'Dost thou take us in mockery?' He said, 'I take refuge with God, lest I should be one of the ignorant.'" Surah 267
"Say 'Is it other than God you bid me serve, you ignorant ones?'" Surah 3964
"And Noah said, 'My Lord, leave not upon the earth of the unbelievers even one. Surely, if Thou leavest them, they will lead Thy servants astray, and will beget none but unbelieving libertines." Surah 7126-27
"Say 'O you, the unbelievers," Surah 1091
There are many examples of the titles given to them because of the teachings they uphold. We are taught to be discerning, to make investigation, and not to take disbelievers as intimates, guardians, friends.
"O believers, when you are journeying in the path of God, be discriminating, and do not say to him who offers you a greeting, 'Thou art not a believer,' seeking the chance goods of the present life. With God are spoils abundant. So you were aforetime; but God has been gracious to you. So be discriminating; surely God is aware of the things you do." Surah 494
"O believers, when believing women come to you as emigrants, test them. God knows very well their belief. Then, if you know them to be believers, return them not to the unbelievers. They are not permitted to the unbelievers, nor are the unbelievers permitted to them. Give the unbelievers what they have expended; and there is no fault in you to marry them when you have given them their wages. Do not hold fast to the ties of unbelieving women, and ask what you have expended, and let them ask what they have expended. That is God's judgment; He judges between you; and God is All-knowing, All-wise." Surah 6010
How are you going to marry a believing wife is you don't make investigation? Take her for her word?
Allah is clear how we are to act towards those who make a mockery of His revelation. Pass by nobly, do not sit with them Surah 4140, 668, 2563, 2855
"He has sent down upon you in the Book 'When you hear God's signs being disbelieved and made mock of, do not sit with them until they plunge into some other talk, or else you will surely be like to them.' God will gather the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in Gehenna." Surah 4140
Which is why you find me leaving the group on Facebook after our conversation; there are people who uphold teachings of the ancients, teachings of sectarian satans, and Kabbalist esoteric myths. Now those people will be called to account for what they say. Allah makes this clear
"Then said a certain man, a believer of Pharaoh's folk that kept hidden his belief, 'What, will you slay a man because he says, "My Lord is God," yet he has brought you the clear signs from your Lord? If he is a liar, his lying is upon his own head; but if he is truthful, somewhat of that he promises you will smite you. Surely God guides not him who is prodigal and a liar." Surah 4028
I won't be asked what they did or believed. I am only responsible for myself.
Out of all the people on that discussion group, how many study the Quran in the morning or evening?
Out of all the people on that discussion group, how many spend out of what Allah provides them at every harvest (which is every payday for many in America)?
Those are criterion for discerning believers, as taught in the Quran. (Ayats given below.)?Your friend is only God, and His Messenger, and the believers who perform the prayer and pay the alms, and bow them down.
Whoso makes God his friend, and His Messenger, and the believers -- the party of God, they are the victors.? Surah 555-56?And the believers, the men and the women, are friends one of the other; they bid to honour, and forbid dishonour; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and they obey God and His Messenger. Those -- upon them God will have mercy; God is All-mighty, All-wise.? Surah 971
Those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal are not my friends nor my intimates.
I do not practice pagan Namaz; I uphold the salat taught to us by Allah in the Quran.
I do not pay 2.5% of my total income once a year. I spend 1/5 of the abundance at every payday if not more, on top of the Medicare, Social Security, and Unemployment taxes that are obligatory.Allah knows how each person will end up. But Allah has given all nations the Quran so we may judge by what He has sent down.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
These are my beliefs based on the Quran. I'm not saying you have to believe as I do. On the contrary, I'm telling you to not believe me and to check everything that I say to make sure I'm not full of garbage.
I'm telling you to study the Quran and ask Allah to explain it.
Peace.
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I am of like opinion as far as my research. I just dislike that these people exempt themselves from everything than have the nerve to call me a kaffir, because I dont believe as them. I try to be as humble as I can and ignore it. But long as the ummah has this mentality of negativity, I dont see Muslims uniting at all. Peace be upon you brother
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I am of like opinion as far as my research. I just dislike that these people exempt themselves from everything than have the nerve to call me a kaffir, because I dont believe as them. I try to be as humble as I can and ignore it. But long as the ummah has this mentality of negativity, I dont see Muslims uniting at all. Peace be upon you brother
Salam,
I would ask you not to take it literally. But to take it as a "relative" term. When your model of the universe does not match with my model of the universe, we end up calling each other rejectors. We fail to realize that all knowledge does not belong to us, so we may be wrong. The arrogance in us gets unleashed. Which leads to further name callings and personal attacks. I have been called ingrate, hypocrite etc for not seeing numbers here and there. Unfortunately , this is the model of "wisdom" for some people, and this is how they define "beautiful preaching". As for me, whenever I see 2 conflicting models of theology, instead of name calling and personal attacks, I choose to abide by the following(remember that the term rejecter here is relative, not absolute)
1091 Say O rejecters,
1092 I do not serve what you serve,
1093 Nor do you serve what I serve,
1094 Nor will I serve what you serve,
1095 Nor will you serve what I serve,
1096 To you is your system, and to me is mine.Having said that , I pray that Allah increases you in knowledge and wisdom and always guides you to the straight path.
Peace be with you, may Allah be pleased with you
---------------------------------------------------- Student of Allah
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Quote from AlboDibran on Yesterday at 034713 PM
Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it.
Peace be with you,
Can you show me this ayat?
I only know we are not to ridicule anyone
"O believers, let not any people scoff at another people who may be better than they; neither let women scoff at women who may be better than themselves. And find not fault with one another, neither revile one another by nicknames. An evil name is ungodliness after belief. And whoso repents not, those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 4911Peace.
Gladly.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace You are not a believer! You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
/Happy Ramadan!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Salaam,
First of all, I will have to agree with Brother Eikonoklastes, as per his statement
Perhaps it's a bit of a false representation on the Internet since when we discuss things like religion, we usually talk about the differences we have rather than the similarities. I often feel that if we were all in a room together in real life, we'd have a lot more in common than we can imagine. We simply do not have the time to explore these similarities as much online because of the nature of the Internet (especially forums).
Internet forum is mostly an academic ground where people discuss, and debate on certain things. Religion or belief systems, is a very tricky issue because not two people will have exactly the same views on every single aspect. I have to add that once you meet these people in real life, you will find how much you are similar and how strong connection you have with each other. I have been fortunate enough to meet with a number of Brothers and Sisters from Free Minds, and I can personally tell you that, well, differences don?t matter anymore and we ?connect? straight away (at least, that is what I feel anyway). It is amazing that when you collectively believe in Qur?aan only/monotheism, you do feel that strong ?friendship? regardless of what your age, backgrounds, or level of education/knowledge.
Back to your opinion, does it really matter whether or not we believe exactly the same way? The way someone perceives something is shaped by their environment and experience. Hence, they will have their own unique interpretation on the Scriptures. I cannot fault someone else?s interpretation because I acknowledge that my knowledge is flawed, and that only God has the absolute knowledge. ?Unity? that you speak of, is not realized by appearing or believing the same way. It is collectively moving towards the same destination (God) despite the differences. My analogy is, when a group of us is moving towards ?x?, it does not really matter if one rides a car, a horse, or if one walks or runs.
I personally will not mind us being our own ?messenger?. After all, no messenger is currently present, and we have to exercise the next best thing that God has bestowed mankind in understanding the Qur?aan ? our minds. If my belief alienates me, then that?s fine. I?d rather follow what I believe what is right, than being superficially ?united? with unsettling question within. Why, I must ask, do you desire that ?unity? based on having identical views on every single thing ? is it because you actually want to feel closer to God, or you want to silence your insecurity? Is it because you feel, that the Truth comes in numbers? After all, if more people believe the same way like you do, there will be no way you can be wrong, right?
I have to add that there are many of use respect differences and will not resort to labeling/calling each other kaffir just because the others have different views on Islam.
It seems most Quran alone muslims, even hadithers, are just plain internet muslims. They seem to think arguing semantics and grammar scores them brownie points with Allah. And it is getting pathetic.
It seems righteousness, charity, are at the bottom of the to do list. And being a Quran expert at the top.
Alright, I have the responsibility to defend others here. Your analysis, as quoted above, is flawed because you only witness on what takes place on virtual realm. Do you even know what they do in their lives? Do you even attempt to get to know any of them personally, to understand their beliefs, their dreams and their ambitions? I daresay you don?t. Your judgment is made based on the text exchanges here in Free Minds, which is mostly academic. I don?t think anyone will be douche-y enough to constantly talk about the righteous deeds that they do every single day.
Anyway, that?s all I can say. Feel free to drop me a line if you want to discuss further. Salaam.
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Firstly - as Eikon mentioned, the Internet is not a clear representation of "real life". I have sat face to face with people who have a completely different understanding on some topics (they had a metaphoric apporach), yet we had a lovely discussion, felt brotherly love, and rejoiced in the fact that "God" was the subject of our gathering and discussion - may He be glorified forever.
Dear Layth, Internet can be more real than the real life. Because, here people are less afraid to speak what they actually carry in their minds, and do not need to be hypocritical and have a layer of brotherly niceness coated on them for protecting their image as in face to face. That's what we are usually concerned in real life above anything else, that is why people are forced to follow the moral protocols. Internet is their bunker, here they can be themselves. Here no one can see them and question the character of their person, so people's real selves are projected.... all the hatred, bitterness, intolerance, embedded in their minds finds a very easy channel to flow, they are not afraid that their personality will be exposed to the accusations of bigotry, they can put aside all concerns and be what they really are and what they wish to be. Here what you see is not what you may get, but what that exists, that is the point. I don't say this about the people you sat with, but in general about many of us. It maybe a pessimist's opinion, but it is a posteriori. Sorry for the rant.
Peace.
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Whilst I can understand the sentiment, a few points...
this forum is open to anyone to join and post - this means we will get a mix of opinion on many issues, some quality posts, some poor quality posts.
Quran covers many, perhaps all, aspects of life which means it contains a huge number of topics - in such a thing, you will inevitably get a huge range of view
a forum is a place for exchange of views/information primarily - not some sort of utopia
In real life, and thus on this forum, it is very rare for people to regularly broadcast their charitable deeds, so do not expect that here either.
moderators/admin do not read all posts - shock! - thus rely on members to report posts, very few actually do. Its a bit like complaining the police never do anything about the crime in your street when you never report such incidents to them, even if you see or know of these crimes.
I have been a member a long time, and it is a fact that the majority of discussions are done in a reasonable/respectful manner.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Quote from AlboDibran on Yesterday at 034713 PM
Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace You are not a believer! You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.
Show me where Allah says calling a person 'kafir' is a great offense. That does not say anything about a great offense.
"O believers, when you are journeying in the path of God, be discriminating, and do not say to him who offers to you peace, 'Thou art not a believer,' seeking the chance goods of the present life. With God are spoils abundant. So you were aforetime; but God has been gracious to you. So be discriminating; surely God is aware of the things you do." Surah 494
"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha darabtum fee sabeeli Allahi fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan tabtaghoona AAarada alhayati alddunya faAAinda Allahi maghanimu katheeratun kathalika kuntum min qablu famanna Allahu AAalaykum fatabayyanoo inna Allaha kana bima taAAmaloona khabeeran"
Allah is clear we are not to aggress against those who act peacefully against us in seeking the frail goods of this life.
"God forbids you not, as regards those who have not fought you in religion's cause, nor expelled you from your habitations, that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them; surely God loves the just.
God only forbids you as to those who have fought you in religion's cause, and expelled you from your habitations, and have supported in your expulsion, that you should take them for friends. And whosoever takes them for friends, those -- they are the evildoers." Surah 608-9Thou shall not murder nor be the aggressor Surah 608-9, 2190-193, 429-30, 492-94, 532
"And fight in the way of God with those; who fight with you, but aggress not God loves not the aggressors." Surah 2190
As the example of the Prophets (pbut) show, we are to be discerning. The words and the actions of a person will show if they are believer, disbeliever, hypocrite, and/or ignorant.
Allah explains the Quran.
Peace.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Beg pardon if this is going off topic.
You are correct ) in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense. It is completely contrary to the Guidance located in AQ, to call a person "kafir" though. I understand that you are saying that ALLAH does not say a thing and I agree with you. handshake It is wicked to attribute to ALLAH what ALLAH has not stated. This being said, muslims should call other people neither "kafir" nor any other impolite word--as you already acknowledged in a previous post. It is not my intent to be condescending to you nor to any other. The purpose of this post is to, ISA, show any interested parties why even though calling others "kafir" is not called a great offense we should not do it.
If "kafir" is said as ridicule, then per AQ 4911 the ridiculer is deemed a transgressor. If said with arrogance or insolence, then AQ 3118 states that GOD does not love the person acting with arrogance and/or insolence. Is it good manners to call others names? Is "kafir" a word of kindness, or a word of mockery? Is it a good thing to be called...or an insulting label? I would not like to be called a "kafir"...how would <reader> feel to be called one? hmm
If a muslim has to say something other than what is polite, the muslim should return the same greeting (AQ 486) or say what is said in AQ 2952--but only if it can be said without arrogance, without insolence, and in such a way that it allows the muslim to depart in a good manner.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
3118 And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For GOD does not love the arrogant show off.
7310 And be patient over what they say, and depart from them in a good manner.
2952 Say "GOD is enough as a witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. As for those who believe in falsehood and reject GOD, they are the losers."
Per AQ 494 (and portions of AQ quoted above and below) if a person greets you in peace, you should not call them a "kafir" or otherwise respond disrespectfully. It doesn't matter if the person is a believer or not--if they are polite, a muslim should return politeness--the bare minimum is to "give as good as you get" and return the same greeting. A muslim should strive towards politeness in all situations. GOD alone is Judge. For a person to attempt to judge another's faith ~seems~ like shirk, in that it ~seems~ that the would-be-judge attempts to do what is GOD's exclusively. Even in the case of deniers, we are told to disregard them without being rude (AQ 4389) and leave GOD to deal with them (AQ 7311).
4389 So disregard them and say Peace. For they will come to know.
7311 And leave Me to deal with the deniers who have been given the good things, and give them time for a while.
787 And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until GOD judges between us. He is the best of judges.
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?
6839 Or do you have an oath from Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that you can judge as you please?6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
3159 It was a mercy from GOD that you were soft towards them; had you been harsh and mean hearted, they would have dispersed from you; so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the matter; but when you are convinced, then put your trust in GOD; for GOD loves those who put their trust.
4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
1322 And those who are patient seeking the face of their Lord; and they hold the contact prayer, and they spend from what We have bestowed upon them secretly and openly, and they counter evil with good; these will have an excellent abode.
1426 And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle.
2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say Peace.
6108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.
608 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.
Muslims should be discerning. We should also strive for politeness. In matters of judgement, we should follow the Guidance of ALLAH contained in AQ and not rush to judge others. We should be careful of our alliances, and of who our intimate friends are.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers, to have Mercy on us, and Forgive us for our transgressions.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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You are correct ) in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense.
If Allah does not say it, why do you?
It is completely contrary to the Guidance located in AQ, to call a person "kafir" though.
I would like to take this opportunity to point you back to the Quran
"Say 'O you, the unbelievers (Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona),
I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion!'" Surah 1091-6"Nothing else they said but, 'Lord, forgive us our sins, and that we exceeded in our affair, and make firm our feet, and help us against the people (alqawmi) of the unbelievers (alkafireena).'" Surah 3147
Not only does Allah reveal that we are to call people 'disbeliever', but calling to Allah reflects this as well.
"God charges no soul save to its capacity; standing to its account is what it has earned, and against its account what it has merited. Our Lord, take us not to task if we forget, or make mistake. Our Lord; charge us not with a load such as Thou didst lay upon those before us. Our Lord, do Thou not burden us beyond what we have the strength to bear. And pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; Thou art our Protector. And help us against the people of the unbelievers (alkafireena)." Surah 2286
Proof is given. )
I understand that you are saying that ALLAH does not say a thing and I agree with you. handshake It is wicked to attribute to ALLAH what ALLAH has not stated.
Allah is Guide, Oft-Forgiving, Merciful.
Insha'Allah, we will continue to turn to Him and ask Him to guide us to a right better than this.This being said, muslims should call other people neither "kafir" nor any other impolite word--as you already acknowledged in a previous post.
It is not an impolite word. Allah would not command the title to be said if it was impolite or improper.
Just as Moses (pbuh) asked Allah for refuge from being among the ignorant. Surah 267
Just as Noah (pbuh) asked Allah to increase the wicked in nothing but destruction. Surah 7128
Just as Muhammad (pbuh) was told by Allah to tell the hypocrites of the destruction that awaits them. Surah 4138
Just as Allah commands us to speak penetrating words to them about themselves."Those -- God knows what is in their hearts; so turn away from them, and admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves." Surah 463
"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou stern with them; their refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!" Surah 973
It is not my intent to be condescending to you nor to any other. The purpose of this post is to, ISA, show any interested parties why even though calling others "kafir" is not called a great offense we should not do it.
When the disbelievers are made known to us by Allah, then we are to avoid them and pass by nobly. Allah will deal with them in due time.
But when these disbelievers - kafir - come to me and profess belief, telling me I am not a Muslim because I do not follow their associate gods found in Sahih Bukhari, Appendices of Rashad Khalifa or Edip Yuksel, histories written by men and women who proclaim disbelief in the deen of Al-Islam, or their own hadith that intermixes teachings of the polytheists and esoterics I point to them the clear proofs found in the Quran and speak to them stern, penetrating words. Then I bid them 'Peace' and cease association with them.
So while you bring up valid points in how we are to treat people who do not attack us for our beliefs, those who do attack because we serve Allah alone had best bring proof as to why they believe what they believe, or keep silent. It's wiser.
I am not a craven man that I seek to soothe ruffled feathers when the Truth is presented. The Truth will set you free. But first, it's going to make you very angry.
I know who my friends are as Allah gives description as well. And Allah is Friend to the believers. He is the best Protector.I have been called a 'disbeliever' and 'kafir' numerous times by Islamists, Code-19 Submitters, Quranists, and Christians, among others. I'm not concerned with what they think. I am concerned with what Allah knows, and what I am upholding - my beliefs and my deeds to prove my beliefs. That not only includes upholding salat but most of all doing good deeds and spending out of what Allah provides.
Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer."Those who believe, and have not confounded their belief with evildoing -- to them belongs the true security; they are rightly guided." Surah 682
So make investigation, test those who come to you seeking ties of friendship and marriage, and see if they truly uphold the Truth from Allah. No where are we taught to aggress, we are only allowed to defend. So be kind, judge with equity, be forgiving and patient. Then when they are made known to you, act accordingly. If they are believers, keep them close. If they are disbelievers, bid them 'Peace' and limit interaction with them or you will become like them.
But as shown, those who uphold teachings of disbelief are called disbelievers by Allah and by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), among other Prophets (pbut) found in the Quran.
"But those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving -- upon them shall rest the curse of God and the angels, and of Nasi altogether," Surah 2161
Peace.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in quote box are red.
If Allah does not say it, why do you?
Did I? Where?
I would like to take this opportunity to point you back to the Quran
"Say 'O you, the unbelievers (Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona),
I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion!'" Surah 1091-6Who was Commanded to say that?
"Nothing else they said but, 'Lord, forgive us our sins, and that we exceeded in our affair, and make firm our feet, and help us against the people (alqawmi) of the unbelievers (alkafireena).'" Surah 3147
ALLAH knows who the unbelievers are, and to ALLAH the people asked for help against all unbelievers. The unbelievers were not spoken to here, the unbelievers were spoken of.
Not only does Allah reveal that we are to call people 'disbeliever', but calling to Allah reflects this as well.
Where does ALLAH reveal that we are to call a person a disbeliever? Talking to does not equal talking of; I could talk about a dead person but couldn't talk to them. There is a vast difference.
It is not always the best course of action to call a person according to their attributes. If one were to call every illegitimately-born person we meet a bastard to their face, it would be true--but it would also be offensive, and what good would come of it? Another example is of a morbidly obese person. Which is more compatible with the Guidance of ALLAH for a muslim to say "Peace" or to say "You really are very fat" to such a person. Isn't a muslim supposed to say the better word/do the better thing? There is nothing wrong with using tact.
"God charges no soul save to its capacity; standing to its account is what it has earned, and against its account what it has merited. Our Lord, take us not to task if we forget, or make mistake. Our Lord; charge us not with a load such as Thou didst lay upon those before us. Our Lord, do Thou not burden us beyond what we have the strength to bear. And pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; Thou art our Protector. And help us against the people of the unbelievers (alkafireena)." Surah 2286
Proof is given.
Again, unbelievers are spoken of, not to. This proof is not compelling.
Allah is Guide, Oft-Forgiving, Merciful.
Insha'Allah, we will continue to turn to Him and ask Him to guide us to a right better than this.It is not an impolite word. Allah would not command the title to be said if it was impolite or improper.
Just as Moses (pbuh) asked Allah for refuge from being among the ignorant. Surah 267
Just as Noah (pbuh) asked Allah to increase the wicked in nothing but destruction. Surah 7128
Just as Muhammad (pbuh) was told by Allah to tell the hypocrites of the destruction that awaits them. Surah 4138
Just as Allah commands us to speak penetrating words to them about themselves.In none of the above cases were the prophets (pbut) Commanded to call people these words. Calling someone ignorant, wicked, hypocritical, or an unbeliever is impolite; none of these words are words of kindness. A person called these words is likely to be insulted; ergo, the words are insults--even if the charges are completely true. What is the expected outcome of an insult? An insult will never serve to invite another to a belief, plus we aren't supposed to cherry pick ayahs. We are supposed to comply with ALL Guidance. Examples are posted at the bottom of this message.
"Those -- God knows what is in their hearts; so turn away from them, and admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves." Surah 463
"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou stern with them; their refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!" Surah 973
Who was Commanded to be stern with unbelievers and hypocrites? Why aren't all believers or all submitters Commanded to do this? Penetrating words are not harsh words--they are clear words that are intended to be persuasive.
When the disbelievers are made known to us by Allah, then we are to avoid them and pass by nobly. Allah will deal with them in due time.
I agree, if and only if they are set in their ways. Otherwise, it is good to invite them to monotheism.
But when these disbelievers - kafir - come to me and profess belief, telling me I am not a Muslim because I do not follow their associate gods found in Sahih Bukhari, Appendices of Rashad Khalifa or Edip Yuksel, histories written by men and women who proclaim disbelief in the deen of Al-Islam, or their own hadith that intermixes teachings of the polytheists and esoterics I point to them the clear proofs found in the Quran and speak to them stern, penetrating words. Then I bid them 'Peace' and cease association with them.
So while you bring up valid points in how we are to treat people who do not attack us for our beliefs, those who do attack because we serve Allah alone had best bring proof as to why they believe what they believe, or keep silent. It's wiser.
I am not a craven man that I seek to soothe ruffled feathers when the Truth is presented. The Truth will set you free. But first, it's going to make you very angry.
I know who my friends are as Allah gives description as well. And Allah is Friend to the believers. He is the best Protector.Truth supports itself just fine without anger. Anger imperils logical thought and prevents civil discourse.
I have been called a 'disbeliever' and 'kafir' numerous times by Islamists, Code-19 Submitters, Quranists, and Christians, among others. I'm not concerned with what they think. I am concerned with what Allah knows, and what I am upholding - my beliefs and my deeds to prove my beliefs. That not only includes upholding salat but most of all doing good deeds and spending out of what Allah provides.
Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer.When you were called a disbeliever and "kafir", were you insulted?
"Those who believe, and have not confounded their belief with evildoing -- to them belongs the true security; they are rightly guided." Surah 682
So make investigation, test those who come to you seeking ties of friendship and marriage, and see if they truly uphold the Truth from Allah. No where are we taught to aggress, we are only allowed to defend. So be kind, judge with equity, be forgiving and patient. Then when they are made known to you, act accordingly. If they are believers, keep them close. If they are disbelievers, bid them 'Peace' and limit interaction with them or you will become like them.
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.
Unless physically attacked, we should use neither offensive actions nor offensive words--and all Judgement should be left to ALLAH. Personally, I like to use the "ignore" button to tone out the bombast of certain persons.
But as shown, those who uphold teachings of disbelief are called disbelievers by Allah and by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), among other Prophets (pbut) found in the Quran.
"But those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving -- upon them shall rest the curse of God and the angels, and of Nasi altogether," Surah 2161
Disbelievers exist, but nowhere are we (ordinary muslims) commanded to address them as such.
Peace.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
All believers are addressed, not only prophets (pbut)!
3118 And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For GOD does not love the arrogant show off.
7310 And be patient over what they say, and depart from them in a good manner.
4389 So disregard them and say Peace. For they will come to know.
7311 And leave Me to deal with the deniers who have been given the good things, and give them time for a while.
787 And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until GOD judges between us. He is the best of judges.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
3159 It was a mercy from GOD that you were soft towards them; had you been harsh and mean hearted, they would have dispersed from you; so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the matter; but when you are convinced, then put your trust in GOD; for GOD loves those who put their trust.
4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
1322 And those who are patient seeking the face of their Lord; and they hold the contact prayer, and they spend from what We have bestowed upon them secretly and openly, and they counter evil with good; these will have an excellent abode.
1426 And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle.
2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say Peace.
6108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.
608 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.
The preponderance of Quranic evidence is clear. Truth stands manifest from error.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments in quote box are red.
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
All believers are addressed, not only prophets (pbut)!
So you are stating only part of the Quran is for believers, and part is only for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). That is your claim?
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854
?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789
?In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe.? Surah 12111
"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." Surah 1037
Did I? Where?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602640.msg281937#msg281937
The OP asked "Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it."
I asked where this was said, could you show it.
You said 'Gladly'.
So why do you 'gladly' strive to show it or say it when Allah does not?Who was Commanded to say that?
We, the believers, are commanded to say that.
Unless you are striving to say that every single command of 'Say' is ONLY for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Is that your claim?
Unless you are striving to say we do not have an excellent example in Prophet Muhammad. Is that your claim?"You have had a good example in God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God oft." Surah 3321
Everything in the Quran is for the reader, not just Muhammad. You cannot make exception just because you do not like it.
ALLAH knows who the unbelievers are, and to ALLAH the people asked for help against all unbelievers. The unbelievers were not spoken to here, the unbelievers were spoken of.
So you are saying it is okay to call them disbelievers behind their back, as long as we are speaking to Allah. Is that your claim?
"O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate." Surah 4912
At least with me people know exactly where they stand with me.
Where does ALLAH reveal that we are to call a person a disbeliever? Talking to does not equal talking of; I could talk about a dead person but couldn't talk to them. There is a vast difference.
Proof is given in Surah 1091-6, as well as the ayats that follow. You choose to ignore them and to uphold talking about a person behind their back instead Back-biting. That is your choice.
It is not always the best course of action to call a person according to their attributes. If one were to call every illegitimately-born person we meet a bastard to their face, it would be true--but it would also be offensive, and what good would come of it? Another example is of a morbidly obese person. Which is more compatible with the Guidance of ALLAH for a muslim to say "Peace" or to say "You really are very fat" to such a person. Isn't a muslim supposed to say the better word/do the better thing? There is nothing wrong with using tact.
This proves you know only extremes, as Allah states clearly in Surah 608-9 we are to be kind. And yet you say 'unbeliever' is worse than reviling somone by calling them a 'bastard'? By what do you judge?
Calling someone a 'bastard' is derogatory; you are seeking to undermine their esteem. Coupled with you seeking to learn about a person's private life - are you spying on them or gossiping with others about them? Shame on you.
And you equate morbid obesity with mocking Allah's revelation that you would not talk to them but would only say 'Peace'? Is that your claim?And as for those who are morbidly obese, it is my job to tell them 'You are very obese and need to lose weight'. I am in the Medical field, assisting in Surgery, and we have to deal with morbidly obese patients. We cannot be 'tactful' when they are endangering their lives - both on and off the surgical table - by saying 'Peace' and letting them be. We tell them penetrating words so they understand the gravity of the situation that afflicts them.
Just as it is your job to remind and warn those who disbelieve. You are not to guard them, just remind them. And you do so by using penetrating words.Again, unbelievers are spoken of, not to. This proof is not compelling.
And he ignores Surah 109. It matters not to me, I believe in the entire Quran; all of it. I do not pick-and-choose what suits my fancy.
To you are your deeds and to me are mine. I am not going to be asked what you did, nor will you be asked what I did.In none of the above cases were the prophets (pbut) Commanded to call people these words.
Oh, so it's okay to say it in front of them, but not to them. Gotcha.
Calling someone ignorant, wicked, hypocritical, or an unbeliever is impolite
NOW we get to the meat of the matter! You say it is impolite to THEM!
Why do you believe it is impolite to them?; none of these words are words of kindness. A person called these words is likely to be insulted; ergo, the words are insults--even if the charges are completely true.
Because it is true.
To which I have to ask, why are you defending the disbeliever?
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
What is the expected outcome of an insult?
You say it is an insult only because it is true and will 'hurt them'. No where in the Quran does it show these words to be insults. If they were insults, they would not be called them by our Creator.
You are not striving to say our Creator is insulting disbelievers, are you?
You are not striving to say the Prophets (pbut) were insulting disbelievers, are you?See the problem you run into by ascribing attributes to our Creator that are not upheld in the Quran?
An insult will never serve to invite another to a belief,
Which is why, in my daily dawah - my actions - I do not act in an unkind manner to the disbelievers I am in daily contact with. I act with balance and fairness, and speak in a manner that we are commanded. But when they strive to attack me for my beliefs, they get the full of the Quran brought to bear along with their Books. All power is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
plus we aren't supposed to cherry pick ayahs. We are supposed to comply with ALL Guidance. Examples are posted at the bottom of this message.
Who is the one ignoring Surah 109? Let's see if you are cherry-picking further ayats, shall we?
Who was Commanded to be stern with unbelievers and hypocrites? Why aren't all believers or all submitters Commanded to do this? Penetrating words are not harsh words--they are clear words that are intended to be persuasive.
Ah, so YOU are saying WE are not to be stern with disbelievers! That THIS is ONLY to Muhammad? Is that your claim?
I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.
I agree, if and only if they are set in their ways. Otherwise, it is good to invite them to monotheism.
And how do you determine if they are set in their ways? Do you know the unseen? Are you given revelation from Allah that tells you they are set in their ways?
I continue to give dawah by my actions and through refutation when they attack my beliefs. There are people who I know uphold disbelief over Truth, even in my own family, so I limit my interactions. I do not take friends or guardians from the disbelievers. My Friend is Allah and He has given clear description of the disbelievers and the believers. If they are to be guided, that is up to Allah. My only obligation is to remind. As long as they continue to uphold teachings of disbelief, I keep them at arm's-length.
When you were called a disbeliever and "kafir", were you insulted?
No. Why should I when I stand upon a clear sign from Allah?
Why would you be insulted by a title given to you that is not true? Is your ego so frail that being called something you are not is upsetting?Someone calls you a 'kafir' or 'disbeliever', ask their reason. Then turn to Allah and bring proof from the Quran to refute the falsehood ascribed onto you.
Truth supports itself just fine without anger. Anger imperils logical thought and prevents civil discourse.
You are not a revert. You think all of this is in interaction, when I am speaking about ourselves. You waste both our time by laying your interpretation over what is being said.
Allah knows what you hear, and with what you hear with Surah 820-23, 636, 1747, 2451, 3053, 3918, 4130, 6416
When I was shown the Truth I was a Trinitarian for 28 years. To be shown that I was lied to my entire life, to have my spiritual rug pulled out from beneath me, angered me. Why wouldn't it? Being deceived should anger a person.
It was in turning to Allah and serving Him that the anger was cooled and He showed me why this deception is perpetrated. Yet even today, it angers me to see these people willfully leading people astray."You have had a good example in Abraham, and those with him, when they said to their people, 'We are quit of you and that you serve, apart from God. We disbelieve in you, and between us and you enmity has shown itself, and hatred for ever, until you believe in God alone - except that Abraham said unto his father, 'Certainly I shall ask pardon for thee; but I have no power to do aught for thee against God.' 'Our Lord, in Thee we trust; to Thee we turn; to Thee is the homecoming." Surah 604
Who is the one cherry-picking ayats?
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.
Unless physically attacked, we should use neither offensive actions nor offensive words--and all Judgement should be left to ALLAH. Personally, I like to use the "ignore" button to tone out the bombast of certain persons.
So why do you condemn me for leaving people be after giving reminder? Don't be a hypocrite.
Once the reminder is given, my obligation is done.""Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
Disbelievers exist, but nowhere are we (ordinary muslims) commanded to address them as such.
Says the man who ignores Surah 109.
By upholding that calling a person a disbeliever, a hypocrite, wicked, or any other title in the Quran is an insult, you are stating
Allah and the Prophets (pbut) ridiculed the people they were sent to warn, as they called the disbelievers by these titles.
Every single ayat you posted where you attempt to correlate these titles of disbelief with ridicule, you accuse our Creator and the Prophets and the believers who use the same titles of an evil deed.
That's your choice. As shown, I do not cherry-pick ayats to suit my purpose. And I do not take disbelievers as intimates, guardians, or friends. It appears to me you do not discern between them and take disbelievers as friends, intimates, guardians. Those are the actions of a hypocrite, someone who is ungodly.
?Leave alone those who take their religion for a sport and a diversion, and whom the present life has deluded. Remind hereby, lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; apart from God, it has no protector (awliya) and no intercessor; though it offer any equivalent, it shall not be taken from it. Those are they who are given up to destruction for what they have earned; for them awaits a draught of boiling water and a painful chastisement, for that they were unbelievers.? Surah 670
?Thou seest many of them making unbelievers their friends. Evil is that they have forwarded to their account, that God is angered against them, and in the chastisement they shall dwell forever.
Yet had they believed in God and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends; but many of them are ungodly.? Surah 580-81You are saying that every time the words 'Say' are in the Quran, they are only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
?Argue not with the People of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit.? Surah 2946
Is that only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
If not, why do you cherry-pick?You are saying that every time a disbeliever is called by their rightful titles - as you stated above they are true - they are spoken to in an evil manner, attributing an evil act to the Prophets and our Creator. Surah 4911
Do you call every person who ascribes partners with Allah, by following teachings beside what Allah revealed a believer?
Do you call every person of a sect of the Islamists - be they Sunni, Shia, Quranist, Sufi, Wahabbi, etc. - a Muslim?To you are your deeds, to me are mine. That penetrates to the core of the matter.
Peace.
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Brother I get what your saying. But my point is the term Disbeliever is thrown around very loosely. For example. you can disagree on an interpretation, even if you serve Allah do charity act righteous and are humble, because you dont accept their belief they call you a disbeliever. You dont see the arrogance there? There is a fine line between knowing and calling a disbeliever when you see one, and just throwing the term around because people dont believe the same. For instance I was called a disbeliever by a quranist for disagreeing that hajj means ankles. Now they dont know me or my actions or how I serve Allah. but because I didnt believe what they assumed I was called a disbeliever, even after I bid them peace. Peace be upon you
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Brother I get what your saying. But my point is the term Disbeliever is thrown around very loosely.
I agree. Yet I have to emphasize I am only responsible for myself. It is my actions and words and beliefs that I will be judged by. The rest, it is between them and Allah.
Though it is thrown around loosely, it only falls upon those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal.For example. you can disagree on an interpretation, even if you serve Allah do charity act righteous and are humble, because you dont accept their belief they call you a disbeliever. You dont see the arrogance there?
Disagreeing on an interpretation, as we disagree here, does not make one a disbeliever. It is in the association of partners with Allah, the upholding of teachings that Allah did not reveal, that makes one a disbeliever.
An example is a person who professes to believe in Allah and be a Muslim, yet he brings teachings from esoteric myths to explain the Quran; he is upholding teachings Allah did not reveal. He is associating partners with Allah.
Another example Rashad Khalifa. This is a man who professed to receive revelation from Allah, yet made numerous mistakes in his teachings. That alone proves he is not a Messenger, and those that follow him or his disciples associate partners by upholding his hadith found in Appendices.
The Islamists who come forward with hadiths uphold partners to Allah by following that which He did not reveal. He will say "I am a Muslim! I uphold the Quran and Sunnah!" And when he calls me a disbeliever, I can show him where he is actually the one who upholds teachings of satans, leading astray many men and women, and how he is in actuallity a disbeliever.That makes a person a disbeliever. You and I may not agree on this topic, but that does not automatically make you a disbeliever, or me for that matter. It is in who we serve, and whose teachings we follow, that prove whether we are believers or disbelievers.
There is a fine line between knowing and calling a disbeliever when you see one, and just throwing the term around because people dont believe the same. For instance I was called a disbeliever by a quranist for disagreeing that hajj means ankles. Now they dont know me or my actions or how I serve Allah. but because I didnt believe what they assumed I was called a disbeliever, even after I bid them peace.
I don't agree with you on hajj meaning 'ankles' and can bring proof to show why it doesn't. But that doesn't make you a disbeliever. The question is Where did you get that interpretation? If you are upholding teachings of men and not Allah, then you can be proven to serve associates beside Allah.
The root word for (kaba) means 'protrusions', which is also used for 'ankles' in the Quran and for the Kaaba protruding from in the middle of Masjid Al-Haram. So already you have a problem by interpreting (hajj) as (kaba), which is a warning sign to me; be careful and confirm everything this man tells you.But that doesn't mean I'm going to attack you or vilify you. On the contrary, I would bring proof to show why I believe what I believe and you are to bring proof to show why you believe what you believe. Then we both make our choices accordingly. If your sources include Quranist websites or Lexicons and not the Quran, you will see me distancing myself from you and bidding you 'Peace' after the reminder is given.
Allah explains the Quran. )
No where are we to treat people like jerks, and even then Allah tells us that though retaliation is allowed, forgiving is better.
But if a person upholds teachings Allah did not reveal, then I cannot say I do not know if he/she is not a disbeliever when Allah has given numerous descriptions throughout the Quran to let us judge accordingly. My only obligation is to remind, so I do so.
Then it is between each individual and Allah.How we respond to these people will prove if we are striving to submit to Allah's will, or follow our own diseased heart. Believers are patient under adversity, but they are not afraid to fight and uphold the Truth when it is required. Fighting to defend your beliefs, fighting for your rights of freedom given to us by Allah, and fighting to uphold the Truth by confronting the falsehood when presented.
Fighting isn't just physical violence. We will fight with penetrating words in order that our hands will not be raised in violent acts in the future, insha'Allah.May Allah guide us to a right better than this.
Peace and blessings.
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No I dont believe it means ankles either. sounds extremely eroneous and inconsistent. And Many Quranists dont understand words mean things based on context and seperate it from the whole book and take it alone. I should have phrased the sentence better. But I was called disbeliever for not believing that hajj is ankles. And then when I asked for proof and not an opinionated explanation. I was then called a one who follows traditionalism and said that I like to kiss a black vagina stone. LOL So the person got very insulting when I dont even uphold those added rituals not in Quran. But my belief and If I am wrong Allah forgive me. But it seems many are trying to manipulate and play with grammar to exempt themselves from any duty to Allah. such as saying Allah permits homosexuality, that the punishment for adultery is mistranslated, and many other claims that they merely never cough up proof for. And when I ask for proof they just retaliate with questions lol. Peace be unto you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments follow in red.
So you are stating only part of the Quran is for believers, and part is only for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). That is your claim?
Yes. For instance see AQ 3350, 3359, etc. A single example proves the point.
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.? Surah 1854
?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789
?In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe.? Surah 12111
"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." Surah 1037
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602640.msg281937#msg281937The OP asked "Allah says calling people who believe Kaffir, is a great offense, and it seems not many of us are being mindful of it."
I asked where this was said, could you show it.
You said 'Gladly'.
So why do you 'gladly' strive to show it or say it when Allah does not?Granted. And then I clarified in no uncertain terms. When I wrote "You are correct ) in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense." was there a disconnect? It was not my intent to confuse.
We, the believers, are commanded to say that.
Unless you are striving to say that every single command of 'Say' is ONLY for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Is that your claim?It is a big unless. Yes, my claim is the ayahs that begin with "Say" and use "I" instead of "we" are referring to the Prophet Muhammad (peace upon him and all prophets). Further evidence is provided in AQ 7158
AQ 7158 Say O people, I am a messenger of GOD to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, there is no god except He; He gives life and causes death. So believe in GOD and His Gentile messenger prophet, who believes in GOD and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.
Unless you are striving to say we do not have an excellent example in Prophet Muhammad. Is that your claim?
There are parts of AQ that are particular to specific individuals and times...for instance AQ 3350.
"You have had a good example in God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God oft." Surah 3321
Everything in the Quran is for the reader, not just Muhammad. You cannot make exception just because you do not like it.
I see. So when ALLAH states "O Prophet", ALLAH ~meant~ to say "all believers." <sarcasm> Here is AQ 3350 for verification
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are maintained by your oath, as granted to you by GOD; and the daughters of the brothers of your father, and the daughters of the sisters of your father, and the daughters of the brothers of your mother, and the daughters of the sisters of your mother - those who emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are maintained by their oaths. This is to spare you any hardship. GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
So you are saying it is okay to call them disbelievers behind their back, as long as we are speaking to Allah. Is that your claim?
A disbeliever is a disbeliever. Who is a better Judge than ALLAH? In short, yes. Further, this is not referring to an individual disbeliever but to ALL disbelievers.
"O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate." Surah 4912
At least with me people know exactly where they stand with me.
Proof is given in Surah 1091-6, as well as the ayats that follow. You choose to ignore them and to uphold talking about a person behind their back instead Back-biting. That is your choice.
This proves you know only extremes, as Allah states clearly in Surah 608-9 we are to be kind. And yet you say 'unbeliever' is worse than reviling somone by calling them a 'bastard'? By what do you judge?
Calling someone a 'bastard' is derogatory; you are seeking to undermine their esteem. Coupled with you seeking to learn about a person's private life - are you spying on them or gossiping with others about them? Shame on you.
And you equate morbid obesity with mocking Allah's revelation that you would not talk to them but would only say 'Peace'? Is that your claim? oBastard is a descriptive legal term. Morbidly obese has a technical definition. A person is either a bastard or not, morbidly obese or not, and a believer or an unbeliever. Unbeliever is a term that varies from person to person, and is better left to the Judgement of ALLAH. I never claimed that one term was more insulting than the other. My point is that everything that is true is not necessary to say. Yes, I would only say "Peace" to somebody that was morbidly obese in normal conversation.
And as for those who are morbidly obese, it is my job to tell them 'You are very obese and need to lose weight'. I am in the Medical field, assisting in Surgery, and we have to deal with morbidly obese patients. We cannot be 'tactful' when they are endangering their lives - both on and off the surgical table - by saying 'Peace' and letting them be. We tell them penetrating words so they understand the gravity of the situation that afflicts them.
Just as it is your job to remind and warn those who disbelieve. You are not to guard them, just remind them. And you do so by using penetrating words.Cool story bro, but it doesn't pertain to ordinary conversation. No, it is not my job to warn; I have no obligation. It is a privilege from time to time, ISA.
And he ignores Surah 109. It matters not to me, I believe in the entire Quran; all of it. I do not pick-and-choose what suits my fancy.
To you are your deeds and to me are mine. I am not going to be asked what you did, nor will you be asked what I did.The language of AQ is deliberate. Why is believers not used in Surah 109? Can an ordinary person say the contents of Surah 109 and still comply with the rest of AQ?
Oh, so it's okay to say it in front of them, but not to them. Gotcha.
NOW we get to the meat of the matter! You say it is impolite to THEM!
Why do you believe it is impolite to them?Because it is true.
So, if somebody were to call another person an insulting name, it would not be insulting if it wasn't true? An insult is an insult, regardless of the truth of the insult.
6108 And do not insult those who call on other than GOD, lest they insult GOD out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.
To which I have to ask, why are you defending the disbeliever?
I am defending politeness and defined Quranic behavior. Further, disbelievers may become believers, ISA.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
You say it is an insult only because it is true and will 'hurt them'. No where in the Quran does it show these words to be insults. If they were insults, they would not be called them by our Creator.
You are not striving to say our Creator is insulting disbelievers, are you?
You are not striving to say the Prophets (pbut) were insulting disbelievers, are you?Are these serious questions or just really weakly constructed strawman arguments? In no place in AQ is an individual disbeliever singled out. No and no to the questions. However, if the Creator wanted to insult anyone, that is the Creator's business and not mine.
See the problem you run into by ascribing attributes to our Creator that are not upheld in the Quran?
If I were to do such, I'm sure that I would, ISA.
Which is why, in my daily dawah - my actions - I do not act in an unkind manner to the disbelievers I am in daily contact with. I act with balance and fairness, and speak in a manner that we are commanded. But when they strive to attack me for my beliefs, they get the full of the Quran brought to bear along with their Books. All power is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
Who is the one ignoring Surah 109? Let's see if you are cherry-picking further ayats, shall we?
Ah, so YOU are saying WE are not to be stern with disbelievers! That THIS is ONLY to Muhammad? Is that your claim?
This is exactly my claim.
I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.
And how do you determine if they are set in their ways? Do you know the unseen? Are you given revelation from Allah that tells you they are set in their ways?
Exactly; I don't. This is why I don't call any individual a disbeliever. ALLAH knows who the disbelievers are and will ISA intervene as necessary.
I continue to give dawah by my actions and through refutation when they attack my beliefs. There are people who I know uphold disbelief over Truth, even in my own family, so I limit my interactions. I do not take friends or guardians from the disbelievers. My Friend is Allah and He has given clear description of the disbelievers and the believers. If they are to be guided, that is up to Allah. My only obligation is to remind. As long as they continue to uphold teachings of disbelief, I keep them at arm's-length.
No. Why should I when I stand upon a clear sign from Allah?
Why would you be insulted by a title given to you that is not true? Is your ego so frail that being called something you are not is upsetting?I gave the example of the word "bastard." Most bastards would be insulted to be called a bastard. It isn't about ~my~ ego or even ~your~ ego, btw.
Someone calls you a 'kafir' or 'disbeliever', ask their reason. Then turn to Allah and bring proof from the Quran to refute the falsehood ascribed onto you.
Excellent advice.
You are not a revert. You think all of this is in interaction, when I am speaking about ourselves. You waste both our time by laying your interpretation over what is being said.
Are you saying that your understanding/interpretation is somehow superior? You are telling me what I am and what I think, aren't you? If you feel that my messages waste your time, feel free to ignore them or me. To each their own.
Allah knows what you hear, and with what you hear with Surah 820-23, 636, 1747, 2451, 3053, 3918, 4130, 6416
When I was shown the Truth I was a Trinitarian for 28 years. To be shown that I was lied to my entire life, to have my spiritual rug pulled out from beneath me, angered me. Why wouldn't it? Being deceived should anger a person.
It was in turning to Allah and serving Him that the anger was cooled and He showed me why this deception is perpetrated. Yet even today, it angers me to see these people willfully leading people astray."You have had a good example in Abraham, and those with him, when they said to their people, 'We are quit of you and that you serve, apart from God. We disbelieve in you, and between us and you enmity has shown itself, and hatred for ever, until you believe in God alone - except that Abraham said unto his father, 'Certainly I shall ask pardon for thee; but I have no power to do aught for thee against God.' 'Our Lord, in Thee we trust; to Thee we turn; to Thee is the homecoming." Surah 604
Who is the one cherry-picking ayats?
I never accused YOU of doing so. The message is on a public forum; it isn't a PM. The message I composed is backed by Quranic evidence. We are told not to insult others. Directly calling an individual person an unbeliever is a flat-out insult, and there is no getting around it.
So why do you condemn me for leaving people be after giving reminder? Don't be a hypocrite.
Once the reminder is given, my obligation is done.I never condemned YOU at all. In many things, I agree with you, fwiw. I'll bet that you hate it when other people are hypocrites!
""Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
Says the man who ignores Surah 109.
What makes you think that I ignore it? I believe that the Prophet Muhammad was Commanded to say Surah 109; in the Message is an excellent example--not so much in saying it.
By upholding that calling a person a disbeliever, a hypocrite, wicked, or any other title in the Quran is an insult, you are stating
Allah and the Prophets (pbut) ridiculed the people they were sent to warn, as they called the disbelievers by these titles.
Where is a singular person called a disbeliever again? Perhaps some proof will be forthcoming?
Every single ayat you posted where you attempt to correlate these titles of disbelief with ridicule, you accuse our Creator and the Prophets and the believers who use the same titles of an evil deed.
That's your choice. As shown, I do not cherry-pick ayats to suit my purpose. And I do not take disbelievers as intimates, guardians, or friends. It appears to me you do not discern between them and take disbelievers as friends, intimates, guardians. Those are the actions of a hypocrite, someone who is ungodly.
?Leave alone those who take their religion for a sport and a diversion, and whom the present life has deluded. Remind hereby, lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; apart from God, it has no protector (awliya) and no intercessor; though it offer any equivalent, it shall not be taken from it. Those are they who are given up to destruction for what they have earned; for them awaits a draught of boiling water and a painful chastisement, for that they were unbelievers.? Surah 670
?Thou seest many of them making unbelievers their friends. Evil is that they have forwarded to their account, that God is angered against them, and in the chastisement they shall dwell forever.
Yet had they believed in God and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends; but many of them are ungodly.? Surah 580-81You are saying that every time the words 'Say' are in the Quran, they are only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Usually when an ayah begins with "Say", yes. When "Say" is universal (among believers) it is so stated.
?Argue not with the People of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit.? Surah 2946
Is that only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
No. It also doesn't begin with the word "Say."
If not, why do you cherry-pick?
You are saying that every time a disbeliever is called by their rightful titles - as you stated above they are true - they are spoken to in an evil manner, attributing an evil act to the Prophets and our Creator. Surah 4911
What gives one person the right to judge another? Not once has it been demonstrated that an individual has been verbally called a disbeliever.
Do you call every person who ascribes partners with Allah, by following teachings beside what Allah revealed a believer?
Do you call every person of a sect of the Islamists - be they Sunni, Shia, Quranist, Sufi, Wahabbi, etc. - a Muslim?I don't concern myself with the beliefs of others, except as that person chooses to reveal.
To you are your deeds, to me are mine. That penetrates to the core of the matter. )
Peace.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Let us begin.
You posted Surah 3350 and 3359 as your proof that every 'Say' command in the Quran is for only Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I did not ask for you to post an ayat addressed directly to the Prophet, as the 'Say commands previously shown do not start with (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu).
You compound your problem further.
"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), We have made lawful for thee thy wives whom thou hast given their wages and what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee, and the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee, and any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers -- We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own -- that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3350
"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), say to thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they draw their veils close to them; so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3359
These are addressed specifically to the Prophet Muhammad. The direct translation of (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu) is "Oh you, the Prophet".
Just as the disbelievers are addressed in Surah 1091.
Allah is very clear when a command is only for the Prophet and no other, as shown by the specific address of Prophet Muhammad.When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times.
Now you run into a further problem, as you are dismissing 332 ayats of the Quran by upholding your interpretion that all 'Say' commands are only for Muhammad, and not for the reader.
You also dismiss every refutation of argument given to us by Allah by ignoring every 'Say' command to the believers in response to the 'They said' arguments of the disbelievers.When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "They said."
I believe in the Quran, all of it. It is a guidance, a healing, and a blessing to the believer. It is all from Allah, and I do not dismiss any of it. I do not believe as you believe.
Granted. And then I clarified in no uncertain terms.
And I accepted your apology after you clarified that Allah does not command what was initially stated. You are proven to initially attempt to defend a statement Allah did not make. Only after proof was unable to be given by you did you 'clarify'.
No disconnect, only establishment of what you uphold and what it is based on.It is a big unless. Yes, my claim is the ayahs that begin with "Say" and use "I" instead of "we" are referring to the Prophet Muhammad (peace upon him and all prophets). Further evidence is provided in AQ 7158
I didn't ask if every 'Say' command referred TO the Prophet. I asked if every 'Say' command are only FOR the Prophet (pbuh).
When the Prophet is addressed or is told to address, as shown in Surah 7158"Say 'O mankind, I am the Messenger of God to you all, of Him to whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and of the earth. There is no god but He. He gives life, and makes to die. Believe then in God, and in His Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, who believes in God and His words, and follow him; haply so you will be guided.'" Surah 7158
As a believer, I can quote this as proof Muhammad (pbuh) is a Messenger of Allah, by his own testimony still with us in the Quran.
But I have not received an answer to my question Is every single command of 'Say' ONLY FOR the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Is that your claim?
There are parts of AQ that are particular to specific individuals and times...for instance AQ 3350.
I see. So when ALLAH states "O Prophet", ALLAH ~meant~ to say "all believers." <sarcasm> Here is AQ 3350 for verificationProof is given above. Even though the Prophet Muhammad is addressed, we the believers are told what to uphold and not do what Allah has forbidden. Do you disagree? I will repost the ayat and bold to ensure you understand what I am speaking of
"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), We have made lawful for thee thy wives whom thou hast given their wages and what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee, and the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee, and any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers -- We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own -- that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3350"O Prophet (Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu), say to thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they draw their veils close to them; so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 3359
So, yes, it is for the believers. Or do you disagree?
And yes, it is for these times as well, up to the End of Days. No where is there a stipulation that it is for ONLY the time of the Prophet. We are still to uphold these teachings. Or again, do you disagree?If you agree with me, why are you saying those ayats are ONLY for Muhammad?
A disbeliever is a disbeliever. Who is a better Judge than ALLAH? In short, yes. Further, this is not referring to an individual disbeliever but to ALL disbelievers.
I will not backbite a person. Allah has given us the Quran that we may judge between people by what He revealed. I do so, and people know exactly where they stand with me. There is no deception or backbiting in my life.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge (litakuma) between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
Bastard is a descriptive legal term.
The Quran is the Book sent to all nations so we may judge between people by what Allah has revealed. By the same account, disbeliever is a descriptive 'legal' term to judge a person by. Proof is given above.
Morbidly obese has a technical definition.
So too is 'wicked', 'unjust', 'evildoer', 'hypocrite'.
A person is either a bastard or not, morbidly obese or not, and a believer or an unbeliever.
So why would you call a person who upholds falsehood a believer?
Unbeliever is a term that varies from person to person, and is better left to the Judgement of ALLAH.
Where does it say that we are not to judge people? You must have missed the ayats in the Quran where Allah tells us to judge between people by what He revealed.
"Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge (litakuma) between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;" Surah 4105
"God commands you to deliver trusts back to their owners; and when you judge (hakamtum) between the people, that you judge (tahkumoo) with justice. Good is the admonition God gives you; God is All-hearing, All-seeing." Surah 458
"So let the People of the Gospel judge (Walyahkum) according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges (yahkum) not according to what God has sent down -- they are the ungodly." Surah 547
Do you want more?
You say Allah does not allow us to judge people? Is that your claim? If it is, where is your proof of this claim?
If you cannot prove it, why do you uphold it?
If Allah did not reveal it, why do you uphold it?I never claimed that one term was more insulting than the other. My point is that everything that is true is not necessary to say. Yes, I would only say "Peace" to somebody that was morbidly obese in normal conversation.
Are you not saying that calling a person a disbeliever is an insult and forbidden by Allah? You brought up these terms then ratified their usage.
A disbeliever - a term you state a person either is or isn't - with descriptions given of who these people are throughout the Quran so that we may judge by what Allah has revealed. By judging a person, we are upholding the 'legalese' given to us by Allah, so we may determine if a person is or isn't a believer.
Where does Allah say calling a person by their LEGAL descriptive title - to judge between people - is an insult?
Are you telling me that in a discussion, by calling a person a 'disbeliever' after providing proof of their associating partners to Allah, I am insulting them?
Because I firmly believe in calling them a disbeliever and providing proof of their disbelief, I am telling them penetrating words so they understand the gravity of the situation that afflicts them.Cool story bro,
Ah, part of the younger Internet community! I would expect the trolling to be a bit of a higher standard though.
but it doesn't pertain to ordinary conversation.
No one said we are to call people 'disbeliever' in ordinary conversation. We are speaking of discussions, debates, and arguments. No where are we to fight a people who do not fight us.
No, it is not my job to warn; I have no obligation. It is a privilege from time to time, ISA.
Then you have made your choice.
We are witnesses Surah 352, 9122, 2875, 2278, 353-4,23, 361-4, 6114
Helpers in Allah?s way (ansara Allahi) Surah 352, 6114
Share knowledge of the Quran, do not hide it. Surah 2283-284
Duty only to remind Surah 669
"Nothing of their account falls upon those that are godfearing but a reminding; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 669
Confront falsehood with Truth Surah 242, 666, 6150, 378, 88, 394, 1781, 2118The language of AQ is deliberate. Why is believers not used in Surah 109? Can an ordinary person say the contents of Surah 109 and still comply with the rest of AQ?
You attempt a leading argument; what is an 'ordinary' person? You have stated above a person is a 'believer' or 'disbeliever'. So by your standards, are you saying an ordinary person is a believer or disbeliever? Is an ordinary person a Jew, Christian, Islamist... What is this 'ordinary' person you speak of?
As for Surah 109, I have heard Islamists quote the whole Surah at the end of discussions/debates with Muslims. So disbelievers can say it, in its entirety. And the irony is that though they ascribe 'disbelief' onto the Muslims, they condemn themselves. )
A disbeliever who quotes Surah 109 is already non-compliant with the Quran. They are disbelievers! P
When they have told me that, I can only agree that I do not serve that which they serve!
I then turn to Allah again to ensure I am not being misguided. Allah is sufficient for me. )So, if somebody were to call another person an insulting name, it would not be insulting if it wasn't true? An insult is an insult, regardless of the truth of the insult.
Again with the leading argument.
You say the title 'disbeliever' is an insult, yet you cannot provide proof from the Quran that it is an insult.
As well, in saying the term is an insult, according to you the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is INSULTING the disbelievers. Something Allah forbids.
You are digging a hole for yourself because of your beliefs.As for Surah 6108
"Abuse not those to whom they pray, apart from God, or they will abuse God in revenge without knowledge. So We have decked out fair to every nation their deeds; then to their Lord they shall return, and He will tell them what they have been doing." Surah 6108Don't mock their gods, or they will lash out at Allah mocking Him in retaliation.
Are these serious questions or just really weakly constructed strawman arguments?
If they are strawman, refute them.
Do you not uphold that the term 'disbeliever' is an insult? Yes or no. If yes...
Does it 'Say' in Surah 1091 "Oh you, the disbelievers'? Yes or no. If yes...
Are you saying Prophet Muhammad called a group of people an insulting name in Surah 1091? Yes or no.In no place in AQ is an individual disbeliever singled out. No and no to the questions. However, if the Creator wanted to insult anyone, that is the Creator's business and not mine.
So according to you it is okay to call a group of people disbelievers and it is not an insult? You wrote
I am defending politeness and defined Quranic behavior.
But your interpretation of what is an insult and what is not reminds me of the Political Correctness of this era. It's okay to insult a group but not the individual? o
What makes up the group? Individuals!
I do not believe our Creator would insult anyone. To you are your beliefs, and to me are mine.
Ah, so YOU are saying WE are not to be stern with disbelievers! That THIS is ONLY to Muhammad? Is that your claim?
This is exactly my claim.
Okie doke. Proof is given why I do not believe as you believe.
"O believers, whosoever of you turns from his religion, God will assuredly bring a people He loves, and who love Him, humble towards the believers, mighty (aizzatin) against the unbelievers, men who struggle in the path of God, not fearing the reproach of any reproacher. That is God's bounty; He gives it unto whom He will; and God is All-embracing, All-knowing." Surah 554
"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness (ghil'atan); and know that God is with the godfearing." Surah 9123
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe (ashiddu) against the unbelievers (l-kufri), merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
To you are your deeds, to me are mine.
?O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport -- and fear God, if you are believers ?? Surah 557
?Thou seest many of them making unbelievers their friends. Evil is that they have forwarded to their account, that God is angered against them, and in the chastisement they shall dwell forever.
Yet had they believed in God and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends; but many of them are ungodly.? Surah 580-81Exactly; I don't. This is why I don't call any individual a disbeliever. ALLAH knows who the disbelievers are and will ISA intervene as necessary.
So you do not judge between people by what Allah has sent down? Am I understanding you correctly?
So you will marry a disbeliever, because you do not judge by what Allah has sent down?
Serious question. How are you going to figure out if a woman is a believer or not if you don't judge by what Allah revealed in the Quran? At some point you will have to make a decision - to judge - on whether a woman is a believer or not.
What criteria will you use? OAre you saying that your understanding/interpretation is somehow superior? You are telling me what I am and what I think, aren't you? If you feel that my messages waste your time, feel free to ignore them or me. To each their own.
In the End we will know who judged by what Allah revealed, and who took satans as friends and guardians instead of judging accordingly by what Allah sent down.
I'm not here to guide anyone. I am bringing proofs to show why I believe what I believe, and refuting what I am being told by those who uphold teachings Allah did not reveal.
I'm responding to you for myself. Refuting falsehood with Truth and strengthening my iman.Note your response below
Directly calling an individual person an unbeliever is a flat-out insult, and there is no getting around it.
And yet you started off this response with
"You are correct Smiley in stating that ALLAH does not say that calling a person a "kafir" is a great offense."
You are a young man of two minds.
I believe that the Prophet Muhammad was Commanded to say Surah 109; in the Message is an excellent example--not so much in saying it.
You are saying the Prophet Muhammad was commanded by Allah to insult people.
Your own words are manifest proof.Exactly; I don't. This is why I don't call any individual a disbeliever. ALLAH knows who the disbelievers are and will ISA intervene as necessary.
Again, you say you do not judge between a people by what Allah revealed? Am I correct in understanding this?
I gave the example of the word "bastard." Most bastards would be insulted to be called a bastard.
Why is it insulting?
Because it is true.It isn't about ~my~ ego or even ~your~ ego, btw.
Oh, but it is. Words do not contain any power except what you give them. If it stings you it is because it stings your ego. Penetrating words hurt the ego.
Where is a singular person called a disbeliever again? Perhaps some proof will be forthcoming?
Oh, so now it gets narrowed down to an individual! It's okay to call a group of people disbelievers, but not an individual! Let's ignore the fact that a group of people is comprised of individuals.
You cannot see the problems your interpretations bring up, can you?Usually when an ayah begins with "Say", yes. When "Say" is universal (among believers) it is so stated.
?Argue not with the People of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit.? Surah 2946
Is that only for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
No. It also doesn't begin with the word "Say."
So the ayats that begin with 'Say' are dismissed by you as they are only for Prophet Muhammad, according to what you just stated.
How many ayats do you throw out of the Quran by upholding this belief?What gives one person the right to judge another?
Allah. Proof is given above. You deny it.
How will you marry a believer when you are forbidden to marry a disbeliever, an idolator, if you do not test her and judge accordingly? P
Will you marry a Sunni? A Shia? Ahmadi? Quranist? Christian Trinitarian? Orthodox Jew?
How are you going to judge if a person is allowed to be your spouse?Not once has it been demonstrated that an individual has been verbally called a disbeliever.
Says the young man who ignores Surah 1091.
Individuals make up a group.
By what do you judge? ???"He said, 'Indeed thou knowest that none sent these down, except the Lord of the heavens and earth, as clear proofs; and, Pharaoh, I think thou art accursed.'" Surah 17102
To you are your deeds, to me are mine.
I bid you 'Peace'. )
