Theory of Evolution anyone ?
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Brother, if they didnt come appearing as mortals who was it that spoke to marrry?
A mortal man.
No where in Surah 19 does it speak of a (malakun). There is only a mortal (basharun).I can't make anyone see that, even when the Arabic is shown
"Faittakhathat min doonihim hijaban faarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan" Surah 1917
Do you see (malakun) there? No.
Do you see (rijalun) there? No.
Do you see (basharun) there? Yes."Then she took (Faittakhathat) from (min) beside them (doonihim) a screen (hijaban), then We sent (faarsalna) to here (ilayha) Our spirit (roohana) his likeness (fatamaththala) it is (laha) mortal (basharan) well-proportioned (sawiyyan)." Surah 1917
Look up the word 'likeness' also translated as 'description'
"And had We willed, We would have raised him up thereby; but he inclined towards the earth and followed his lust. So the likeness (famathaluhu) of him is as the likeness (kamathali) of a dog; if thou attackest it it lolls its tongue out, or if thou leavest it, it lolls its tongue out. That is that people's likeness who cried lies to Our signs. So relate the story; haply they will reflect." Surah 7176
"Now We have sent down to you signs making all clear, and description (wamathalan) of those who passed away before you, and an admonition for the godfearing." Surah 2434
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their description (mathaluhum) in the Torah, and their description (wamathaluhum) in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
Allah gives description and states (basharun). Remember what Allah taught us earlier?
"'Why has an angel (malakun) not been sent down on him?' they say; yet had We sent down an angel (malakun), the matter would have been determined, and then no respite would be given them.
And had We made him an angel (malakan), yet assuredly We would have made him a man (rajulan), and confused for them the thing which they themselves are confusing." Surah 68-9So why would Allah give description the mortal (basharun) who came to her when He used (rijalun) earlier in the example of an angel being sent down? What does Mary (pbuh) tell him when she is told why he is there?
"She said, 'How shall I have a son whom no mortal (basharun) has touched, neither have I been unchaste?'" Surah 1920
Allah shows a mortal (basharun) is sent and before Mary conceived the Messiah (pbuh), no mortal (basharun) has touched her.
So why would I believe an angel was sent when Allah's description is crystal clear?
You've already seen the proofs that show how Allah describes conception; it is always with the sperm and ovum. Do you want me to post them here for the sake of completeness?If He didn't do it in the past with previous Prophets (pbut), He will not change it with any Prophet. Allah says it, and I believe it.
Allah does not change, nor does He change His way (sunnati Allahi) Surah 624, 6115, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3030, 3362, 4815, 4823, 673-4
Or delivered the glad tidings to Abraham, Noah
Mortal men. No where in the Quran does it state angels appeared as men. Allah even says if there were angels as settlers, He would send one as Messenger. But there aren't!
"Say 'Had there been in the earth angels (mala-ikatun) walking. at peace, We would have sent down upon them out of heaven an angel (malakan) as Messenger.'" Surah 1795
Even the people of Noah stated no angels were sent down before, so why believe Noah (pbuh)?
"Said the Council of the unbelievers of his people, 'This is naught but a mortal like yourselves, who desires to gain superiority over you. And if God willed, He would have sent down angels (mala-ikatan). We never heard of this among, our fathers, the ancients." Surah 2324
Allah tells us if an angel were sent down the matter would be decided. Surah 68-9, 693, 6158, 1112, 257
Allah sent only Nasi, mortals (beshar), men (rijalun) as Prophets. Surah 379-80, 6130, 12109, 1338, 2129, 2275
and revealed the Quran to Muhammad. Maybw I misread what you wrote. or did it all occur in a dream? Salam
Allah revealed the Quran to Muhammad (pbuh). The revelation was sent down in the spirit of His command, and laid upon Muhammad's heart.
"Say 'Whosoever is an enemy to Gabriel -- he it was that brought it down (fa-innahu) upon thy heart by the leave (bi-idh'ni) of God (Allahi), confirming what was before it, and for a guidance and good tidings to the believers." Surah 297
"brought down by the Faithful Spirit" Surah 26193
"Even so We have revealed to thee a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Book was, nor belief; but We made it a light, whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants. And thou, surely thou shalt guide unto a straight path --" Surah 4252
No where in the Quran does it teach of an angelic man reciting words to Muhammad (pbuh) or any Prophet of Allah (pbut). Allah is very clear on how He reveals to mankind.
"It belongs not to any mortal that God should speak to him, except by revelation, or from behind a veil, or that He should send a Messenger and he reveal whatsoever He will, by His leave; surely He is All-high, All-wise." Surah 4251
"And when We said to thee, 'Surely thy Lord encompasses men,' and We made the vision that We showed thee and the tree cursed in the Koran to be only a trial for men; and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence." Surah 1760
"God has indeed fulfilled the vision He vouchsafed to His Messenger truly 'You shall enter the Holy Mosque, if God wills, in security, your heads shaved, your hair cut short, not fearing.' He knew what you knew not, and appointed ere that a nigh victory." Surah 4827
The hardest part for us is to give up the preconceptions we bring to our deen, and start over from scratch. Forget everything you used to believe and begin fresh.
Proof Angels
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz151UufthwYou are not stupid, dumb, or incapable of understanding. Trust in Allah. He is Guide.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Peace.
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I see what your saying. But question. When it refers the Quran was brought down to his heart. Would you mean in the context he had it in a vision? That Gabriel did not come as an angel to bring it down. that it was to his heart or a vision. Not in the literal sense? I will look into this as it is very interesting. But I just want to fully understand the context your referring to. Also in regards to Abraham, and Lot, when the messengers came to Abraham, and he offered food and they would not take it. then He sought refuge in Allah and they said fear not we are messengers of God. Was this verse mistranslated? were these "messengers" not angels who came to Abraham? Peace be upon you brother
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Peace be with you,
I see what your saying. But question. When it refers the Quran was brought down to his heart. Would you mean in the context he had it in a vision? That Gabriel did not come as an angel to bring it down.
Allah is clear We don't have a lot of knowledge of the spirit (ruh).
"They will question thee concerning the Spirit. Say 'The Spirit is of the bidding of my Lord. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.'" Surah 1785
You are asking me to create hadith on what happened. I cannot. I only know what Allah has shown us in the Quran. There is plenty of room for people - satans - to create their own teachings, but Allah is clear those are the people who will lead people astray with their teachings based on allegory, not what Allah teaches. Surah 37
There are some things we just won't know until the Day of Judgment.
Now I have to ask Where do you get the idea that Gabriel was a man with wings who came down in a vision and recited the Quran? Part of the process of learning is getting rid of all the past ideas and teachings and starting over. If we don't, we will overlay the ideas we had prior to guidance and try to make them fit. If Allah does not teach it in the Quran, why uphold it?
that it was to his heart or a vision. Not in the literal sense? I will look into this as it is very interesting. But I just want to fully understand the context your referring to. Also in regards to Abraham, and Lot, when the messengers came to Abraham, and he offered food and they would not take it. then He sought refuge in Allah and they said fear not we are messengers of God. Was this verse mistranslated? were these "messengers" not angels who came to Abraham?
Why would you think they are angels when Allah is clear in the Quran
Angels are not men (rijalun) nor mortals (basharan) nor are they settlers on this earth. No where in the ayats that speak of the Messengers sent to Abraham and Lot (pbut) that they are (malikan). So why do you believe they are angels?
Allah sent only Nasi, mortals (beshar), men (rijalun) Surah 379-80, 6130, 12109, 1338, 2129, 2275
"And We sent Messengers before thee, and We assigned to them wives, and seed; and it was not for any Messengers to bring a sign, but by God's leave. Every term has a Book." Surah 1338
Angels bring down the Message in the spirit of Allah's command onto the hearts of the servant's of Allah's choosing. No where in the Quran does it teach angels manifested in any mortal form on earth. Angels are immortal; they do not die.
It is my turn to ask you to bring proof to show why you believe what you believe.
If you cannot provide proof to support it, why do you uphold it?May Allah increase us in knowledge.
Peace.
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No where in the Quran does it teach angels manifested in any mortal form on earth.
Peace raginggaijin, transformation of the ruh did take place, that is clearly written ...
1917 so We sent to her (our ruh) so he assumed for her the likeness basharan/human straight (i.e. real).
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Salam,
Verily I say unto you all, I still do not see the point in your posts reflecting the topic of the thread.
Peace
--------------------------- Student of Allah
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Peace raginggaijin, transformation of the ruh did take place, that is clearly written ...
1917 so We sent to her (our ruh) so he assumed for her the likeness basharan/human straight (i.e. real).
Peace and blessings of Allah be with you and yours,
Now a reader runs into problems when the word translated as 'for he assumed for her the likeness' is given for the word (fatamathala). So a phrase is given for a single word, yet throughout the Quran it is not given the same translation, but instead 'likeness', 'description', and 'similitude'. I gave ayats above that show this
"And had We willed, We would have raised him up thereby; but he inclined towards the earth and followed his lust. So the likeness (famathaluhu) (ُ of him is as the likeness (kamathali)(ِ of a dog; if thou attackest it it lolls its tongue out, or if thou leavest it, it lolls its tongue out. That is that people's likeness who cried lies to Our signs. So relate the story; haply they will reflect." Surah 7176
"Now We have sent down to you signs making all clear, and description (wamathalan)(ا of those who passed away before you, and an admonition for the godfearing." Surah 2434
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their description (mathaluhum)(ْ in the Torah, and their description (wamathaluhum)(ْ in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
This is one of the issues I have with translations, as the translators give a meaning to a word that is used elsewhere in the Quran, but is not translated the same. And in this case, an exposition on the meaning is given.
(fatamathala)(َ Surah 1917
(famathaluhu) (ُ Surah 7176
(kamathali)(ِ Surah 7176
(wamathalan)(ا Surah 2434
(mathaluhum)(ْ Surah 4829
(wamathaluhum)(ْ Surah 4829Yet in none of the ayats outside of Surah 1917 do they say "they assumed the likeness' or 'they assumed the description' or 'they assumed the similitude'.
So why do they add what Allah did not say to this ayat?
There is no argument the spirit (ruh)(ا, the command of Allah, was sent. Allah is clear about how He sends the spirit (ruh)
"He sends down the angels in the spirit (ِ of His command ( ِ upon whomsoever He will among His servants, saying Give you warning that there is no God hut I; so fear you Me!" Surah 162
"Exalter of ranks is He, Possessor of the Throne, casting the spirit (َ of His command ( ِ upon whomever He will of His servants, that he may warn them of the Day of Encounter," Surah 4015
"They will question thee concerning the Spirit. Say 'The spirit (ُ is of the command ( ِ of my Lord(ي. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.'" Surah 1785
For those who say the spirit (ruh) assumed the appearance of a mortal, they run into problems
The spirit is the command of Allah.
Allah casts His spirit (ruh) into the Prophets (pbut) and the believers.
Are they then not mortals, humans?"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Isa son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him (waroohun). So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian." Surah 4171
"Say 'The Holy spirit (roohu) sent it down from thy Lord in truth, and to confirm those who believe, and to be a guidance and good tidings to those who surrender.'" Surah 16102
"And she who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our spirit (roohina) and appointed her and her son to be a sign unto all beings." Surah 2191
"then He shaped him, and breathed His spirit (roohihi) in him. And He appointed for you hearing, and sight, and hearts; little thanks you show." Surah 329
"Even so We have revealed to thee a spirit (roohan) of Our command (min amrina). Thou knewest not what the Book was, nor belief; but We made it a light, whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants. And thou, surely thou shalt guide unto a straight path --" Surah 4252
The spirit is Allah's command. The spirit is cast upon Allah's servants. No where is the spirit a mortal (basharan) human being (insana) or physical manifestation of a man (rijalun).
More to ponder and ask Allah for explanation on.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Peace.
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Salam,
Verily I say unto you all, I still do not see the point in your posts reflecting the topic of the thread.
Peace be with you,
The points about the spirit?
The points about how Allah originated creation?
The points about the beliefs of Jinn and Nasi?They are interlinked.
Allah does not change His way. If He established a way with the Prophets (pbut) before, He will not change it.
So if people believe Adam was created out of literal clay and breathed life into like Pinocchio, then Allah changed His way. Allah is very clear on how humans are made as a result of conception. Surah
If people believe Isa was created by virgin birth, then Allah changed His way. Virgin birth cults have been around in pagan teachings since Isis and Horus in Egypt.
If people believe Jinn are fire creatures who live on the earth, then Allah changed His way. Allah only sent humans, mortals, Nasi as Messengers, and He states angels are not settlers in the earth or He would have sent an angel as a Messenger for them.I'm unclear as to where the confusion comes in.
Peace.
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Peace raginggaijin,
Now a reader runs into problems when the word translated as 'for he assumed for her the likeness' is given for the word (fatamathala). So a phrase is given for a single word, yet throughout the Quran it is not given the same translation, but instead 'likeness', 'description', and 'similitude'.
OK then 1917 so We sent to her (our ruh) so likeness/appearance for her basharan/human straight (i.e. real).
It?s clear the ruh appeared to her as a real person, so what is the issue?
For those who say the spirit (ruh) assumed the appearance of a mortal, they run into problems
The spirit is the command of Allah.
Allah casts His spirit (ruh) into the Prophets (pbut) and the believers.
Are they then not mortals, humans?There are no problems, simply add 1917 to what we know about the ruh ? sent ?appears? as a person.
Allah does not change His way.
That's an assumption on the complete understanding of all the physics involved and the way of Allah.
Verily I say unto you all, I still do not see the point in your posts reflecting the topic of the thread.
OK back to topic, I believe in devolution of the original code program of life over time which initself has error correcting and adapting code. Thus nothing new is created which wasn't a part of the original and it's only some parts of the code that are applified or turned on whereas other parts of the code are inactive/dormant or destroyed by radiaction, etc. No such thing as evolution, programs don't re-write themselves as version 2.0 unless extremely advanced adaptable to begin with and the idea of precise machinery evolving over time healing itself as in DNA replication even if given billions of years absurd.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jtmOZaIvS0
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It is my turn to ask you to bring proof to show why you believe what you believe.
If you cannot provide proof to support it, why do you uphold it?May Allah increase us in knowledge.
Peace.
Well brother I wasnt debating you lol. Merely asking a question. Personally I have not dont extensive look into angels so I could not say. Of course to my present mindset, I dont like to say sternly that its like this or like that. As I have not researched it. I wasnt there when these matters took place to know exactly how they unfolded. I do however believe they took place. But what you present is interesting none the less. So I will do my research and let you know what I come across. If God wills to show me.
Peace be unto you
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Well brother I wasnt debating you lol. Merely asking a question.
Peace be with you,
Don't take every return question as a debate, especially with me, please! I hate how text doesn't convey tone, and with many who want info in 'tweets' or neat little sound bites, it gets difficult to convey a point without sounding blunt or terse. I prefer talking face-to-face or using dialogues to convey my beliefs.
Personally I have not dont extensive look into angels so I could not say. Of course to my present mindset, I dont like to say sternly that its like this or like that. As I have not researched it. I wasnt there when these matters took place to know exactly how they unfolded. I do however believe they took place. But what you present is interesting none the less. So I will do my research and let you know what I come across. If God wills to show me.
And that is what we are all supposed to do; a person comes up with something and says 'I believe in this and that!' We are then obligated to look into it and ask Allah to explain it to us, before we make up our minds.
You are on the right track, and your heart is in the right place.
Do you want to serve Allah?
Then do good deeds.That's the bottom line.
We may not agree on everything, but we should be striving in service to Him.
May Allah guide us to a right better than this.
Peace and blessings.
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Peace be with you,
The points about the spirit?
The points about how Allah originated creation?
The points about the beliefs of Jinn and Nasi?They are interlinked.
Allah does not change His way. If He established a way with the Prophets (pbut) before, He will not change it.
So if people believe Adam was created out of literal clay and breathed life into like Pinocchio, then Allah changed His way. Allah is very clear on how humans are made as a result of conception. Surah
If people believe Isa was created by virgin birth, then Allah changed His way. Virgin birth cults have been around in pagan teachings since Isis and Horus in Egypt.
If people believe Jinn are fire creatures who live on the earth, then Allah changed His way. Allah only sent humans, mortals, Nasi as Messengers, and He states angels are not settlers in the earth or He would have sent an angel as a Messenger for them.I'm unclear as to where the confusion comes in. P
Peace.
Salam,
But the topic is about the Evolution of Species, the theory that was originally proposed by Charles Darwin. Theory of Evolution. Everything in this world can be interlinked to one another, afterall , it is a closed system. Why are you guyz debating over a completely foreign aspect in this thread ? To me, it makes no sense what so ever, and I beleve the posts must be transported to some place they really belong.
PEACE
----------------------- Student of Allah -
Actually Darwin borrowed and expanded on the theory of evolution. It was first taught and advocated by a Muslim scientists during the golden age of Islam. I believe his name was Ibn Khaldoun. And Allah knows best how life was made. personally I find it arrogant that people equate evolution to disbelief. I dont believe in evolution from frog to money to human. But a guided proccess of selection makes sense. And If Allah created evolution, than evolution does not disprove Allah, nor does upholding the idea od some form of evolutionary selection make one a non believer. The reason evolutionary theory is still presenting issues, is because the complex system of cells and organisms within evolutionary chains is so complex that It couldnt possibly take place without an intelligent creator guiding the process. In the end Allah knows best. Peace be upon you all
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Actually Darwin borrowed and expanded on the theory of evolution. It was first taught and advocated by a Muslim scientists during the golden age of Islam. I believe his name was Ibn Khaldoun. And Allah knows best how life was made. personally I find it arrogant that people equate evolution to disbelief. I dont believe in evolution from frog to money to human. But a guided proccess of selection makes sense. And If Allah created evolution, than evolution does not disprove Allah, nor does upholding the idea od some form of evolutionary selection make one a non believer. The reason evolutionary theory is still presenting issues, is because the complex system of cells and organisms within evolutionary chains is so complex that It couldnt possibly take place without an intelligent creator guiding the process. In the end Allah knows best. Peace be upon you all
Salam,
The problem with evolution and muslims are purely cultural and emotional. Evoution is attacked by the christians, nothing unexpected as most of them believe that the earth is around 6000years old or at most 10000 years old. For me, evolution is good to go. Like any scientific theory, the model will improve with time. And I remember someone in this forum, telling me about this muslim back in the 12/13th century i think that discussed such theories. Dont remember the name.
PEACE
-------------------- Student of Allah -
Salam,
But the topic is about the Evolution of Species, the theory that was originally proposed by Charles Darwin. Theory of Evolution. Everything in this world can be interlinked to one another, afterall , it is a closed system. Why are you guyz debating over a completely foreign aspect in this thread ? To me, it makes no sense what so ever, and I beleve the posts must be transported to some place they really belong.
PEACE
----------------------- Student of AllahPeace and blessings of Allah be upon you,
I dig it. I'll stop responding to this thread so discussion can continue. I apologize for the derailing. -[
Peace and blessings.
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...But the topic is about the Evolution of Species, the theory that was originally proposed by Charles Darwin. Theory of Evolution. Everything in this world can be interlinked to one another, afterall , it is a closed system...
All highlights are from me.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602536.msg280134#msg280134
...Why are you guyz debating over a completely foreign aspect in this thread ? To me, it makes no sense what so ever, and I beleve the posts must be transported to some place they really belong...
I agree with you completely. Someone derailed the topic, and I think he did it on purpose. I hope I am wrong. God knows best.
Peace,
Khalil -
While I do not believe POOF we were here. What is your claim that Adam didnt exist? That Adam was not in the Garden, that he didnt eat of the tree. that he wasnt banished to earth. from "wherever" he was. Dont get me wrong not challenging it. Just want it explained. It is a bold claim considering Quran does mention the garden and banihsment. Peace be upon you
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While I do not believe POOF we were here. What is your claim that Adam didnt exist? That Adam was not in the Garden, that he didnt eat of the tree. that he wasnt banished to earth. from "wherever" he was. Dont get me wrong not challenging it. Just want it explained. It is a bold claim considering Quran does mention the garden and banihsment. Peace be upon you
Salam,
Inshallah, explanation coming soon
PEACE
--------------------- Student of Allah
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Lol Inshallah. Salam
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While I do not believe POOF we were here. What is your claim that Adam didnt exist? That Adam was not in the Garden, that he didnt eat of the tree. that he wasnt banished to earth. from "wherever" he was. Dont get me wrong not challenging it. Just want it explained. It is a bold claim considering Quran does mention the garden and banihsment. Peace be upon you
Highlight above is from me.
According to The Qur?aan, Adam is not the first human. Adam and his people, i.e. other humans of his time were already living in the ?GARDEN?, i.e. in the trees, somewhere here on Earth, and I personally believe, the place was in east Africa, and probably at the slopes of Kilimanjaro, or somewhere like that. I am saying that, because, all evidences resulting from natural science, point to modern man, originated in east Africa.
Now lets contemplate verses of The Qur?aan and see What GOD Almighty is telling us regarding the issue.
1st GOD?S commandment regarding how we should study His creation. See verse 2920 below.
??Roam the Earth and observe how God started the creation??
Here, it is absolutely necessary to explore the Earth to learn how GOD started the creation.
2nd In verse 230 GOD informs the angels He is APPOINTING, NOT creating, a SUCCESSOR within the Earth, NOT anywhere else in the Universe.
The angels did not expect this event and questioned GOD?S decision on that, wondering why He is placing a NEW, corrupt and blood shedding creature within the Earth. One must ask why the angels asked such a question. Do they know the future events? Surly NOT! No one knows about the future but GOD, SWT, Himself. Here in fact, the angels are remembering the past, the previous generations of humans, and their behavior and that, this one wouldn?t be any different either.
Next. GOD informs them of their ignorance and challenges them on that regard. The angels confess accordingly and glorify GOD.
3rd After Adam, his wife, and the others that were living in the same habitat, ate from the forbidden tree and lost their outer protective garments, they became vulnerable against the elements and started suffering.
4th Consequently, they all had to get down the trees and the high elevations and migrate to lower land and warmer climates in order to suffer less and to survive. See verse 230 through 238 for clarification.
CONCLUSION
? Adam was not created instantly, he was the EVOLUTIONARY successor of his previous generations.
? Adam was not EXILED to EARTH from some other place in the Universe.Peace,
Khalil
