On the timings of salah - an indepth study

ths

Salaam Wakas,

I did not write that article you referenced. It clearly says who wrote it.

I simply assumed that was your real name, as you have claimed authorship of other articles on that site.

Too bad though, because it is an excellent article.

I am not given the option to modify my original post.

Secondly, as I began reading your article it said "A breakdown of all verses relating to salah" then listed 731-7 which does not even mention the word "salah".

Not all verses relating to salah have to have the word salah in it. That is a naive way of looking at the Quran. You can't just type a word into the search to find out everything the Quran is saying about something - especially something like salah which involves rukoo3, sujood, and other acts.

Please correct or identify your criteria of making equivalent terms first.

I made my methodology quite clear. In fact, there is a big bold header that says Methodology.

I took Monnot's list of verses relating to salah and studied them.

And 731-7 is most assuredly talking of salah.

a) The concept of standing during the night in prayer is replete in the Quran.
b) It says to
c) Standing during reading of the Quran is expressed elsewhere in the Quran as salah.

In fact, I don't think I've ever come across any scholar who has argued that these verses don't apply to worship. What did you think they were talking about? Taking a pleasant evening walk?

Salaam Sarah,

About the wusta prayer, you're right in that it could mean the best prayer, or the most balanced prayer.

The problem really lies with 3017 and 3018. Because it only makes sense if it is talking about 4 different times. So if we take tumsoon and tudhhiroon as 2 different timings, then we have 5 prayers regardless of the meaning of 'wusta'.

Interestingly, though, there is a hadith that talks about the Asr prayer being the most important along with the fajr. I read it a long time ago and can't remember the exact wording, but the meaning was something to the effect of whoever misses the Asr and Fajr prayers is doomed - and the traditional explanation for this is that everyone is awake during Asr and so have no excuse to miss it as it is right in the middle.

Whatever the case may be, I find it interesting that the Quran may be identifying 2 important salah timings, fajr and asr, and the hadiths do so as well.

However, the meaning of wusta in this case doesn't affect the final outcome.

Ok interesting findings, one issue I'd like to mention is the mix up of SBH and salah. Tisbih and salah seem to be used interchangeably, do you not think they're separate entities?

This is a good question. I went with Monnot on this one simply out of respect for his scholarly credentials.

This was his take

In the years 620-4, the communal nature of prayer becomes manifest. The most ancient prescription first addressing the community of disciples seems to be VII, 204-6 (cf. XI, 112-4). In XXX, 17 18, the commandment given them is to pray to God evening and morning, then comes this phrase "To Him be praise in the heavens and on the earth, at the declining of the day ('ashiyyan) and when you are at midday (wa-hina tuzhirun}". To give here to the word ^ashiyy a sense other than that which it habitually expresses in the Kur'an (cf. XVII, 28 and XL, 55, parallels to XX, 130 or XLVIII, 9, etc.), would be arbitrary. On the other hand, the last section of the phrase does indeed seem to designate an additional time of prayer, the novelty of which is perceptible in II, 238 "Be steadfast in your prayers, in the median prayer as well (wa
'l-salati 'l-wusta)...".

So basically he concluded the same as me, that it is identifying an additional time of prayer - and that if we take this to be true, then wusta means "middle" and not "the most balanced".

The Encyclopedia of Islam had this to say

The term subha does not occur in classical Tradition in the meaning of rosary; it is often used in the sense of supererogatory salat, e.g. subhat al-duha (Muslim, Musafirun, trad. 81). Al-NawawI explains the term by nafila (commentary on Muslim's Sahih, Cairo 1283, ii, 204). Ibn al-Athir, Nihaya, s.v. asks how it is that the ideas of nafila and subha coincide. He answers that eulogies (subha) are supererogatory additions to the obligatory salats. So supererogatory salats came to be called subha.

Most importantly, the Quran is giving us a timing for these praises. Whether or not it is the same as salah is a good question, but the point is that something is supposed to be done at these times.

Also, verses like 1598 tie the two concepts together - tasbih and salah.

EDIT I should clarify a little more. I take these verses to be speaking of worship in general. Tasbih, recitation of the Quran, and salah, are all forms of 3ibaadah that fall under the traditional act of salah, as it includes tasbih and takbir, sujood, rukoo3, tartil and tilaawah, etc. Because if there is anything we've learnt from the perpetual bickering on salah, it is that it is a general conception of worship that includes diverse acts of a mental and physical nature.

Wakas

peace ths,

Thanks for answering.

Unfortunately, this assumption in your article underpins everything else in it.

ths

Salaam Wakas,

The Quran is a highly poetic book. I'm sure I could dig up several verses that don't directly mention something but are using metaphors or metonyms to discuss it....I'll leave it for another time.

The point is that the Quran isn't structured so that someone can simply come along and type a word into the search bar and print everything out. It is much more subtle than that.

Salaam Sarah,

I forgot to address your last point.

from when the sun has passed it's zenith till the darkness of night. would this for example be seen as from mughreb till isha (Declining of the sun till night)? so maybe salah is as long as 1 hour? or however long that timing is?

Well I interpret that verse as giving a time-frame to perform a particular salah. Also, there is a verse that states that one should perform salah however long you can do it comfortably - but I can't find it right now.

Also, Quran al-fajr - the recitation of the Quran during fajr is another interesting parallel between the Qur'an and hadiths - the Qur'an seems to be identifying two different acts of fajr - the salah, and the quran (recitation/reading). The hadiths also identify two different acts, as they state that one should read from the Quran until sunrise after having performed the prayer.

SarahY

The problem only become a problem if you take tasbih as salat. And it?s interesting that 3818 talks about His praise, wa lahu hamd, when salat?s purpose is dhikr (2014, 2945). So personally i don?t see them as problems because i see salah and tisbih as different things

Also if we?re going to take scholarly work into consideration, we should take other scholarly work into consideration. There is numerous indications that indicate 2 prayers a day was the practice.

Tsbih can be part of prayer i wouldn?t say it is salah though. In reference to 1598

I don?t have a problem of it being mental and physical, what exactly is the mental and physical nature, God knows best. Most people have different opinions on this
It might be time frame i rather see it as length of salah. If there is a verse of how ever long you can do it comfortable that?ll make sense. Because physical traditional salah only lasts 2 mins.

I seem to think Quran and salat have a parallel.

And come on, it would be unwise to think no hadith will have any relation to Quranic text.

peace

ths

I would make some amendments to this study after coming across more information.

I am no longer convinced that 3017-18 is talking about salah.

This is thanks to Loxbox's post here

I also realize that I forgot to account for the last appointed time in 20130, but this doesn't matter as it follows the same formula as 3017-18, the .

What bothers me is that the times mentioned to perform tasbeeh are identical to the times mentioned to perform salah.

So what is tasbeeh? Traditionally it is taken to be the formulaic repetition of "subhan allah".

But since the times mentioned in 20130 are identical to times mentioned for salah, is this simply a metonym for salah?

Either way, tasbih seems to be appointed for us 5 times a day, which is interesting in itself.

Wakas

What bothers me is that the times mentioned to perform tasbeeh are identical to the times mentioned to perform salah.

Either way, tasbih seems to be appointed for us 5 times a day, which is interesting in itself.

You sure about that?

I strongly recommend that if one thinks doing tasbih is somehow a synonym for salat, then simply note down the exact times for tasbih, and do the same for salat, and one should soon see the problem.

Not to mention there is never any mention of doing tasbih in any format or info on method or anything for that matter, as there is for salat.

ths

I strongly recommend that if one thinks doing tasbih is somehow a synonym for salat, then simply note down the exact times for tasbih, and do the same for salat, and one should soon see the problem.

In traditional sunni salah, and probably in shia salah as well, tasbih is done in every rak'ah. So for the tasbih timings to be the same as salah timings is interesting.

Not to mention there is never any mention of doing tasbih in any format or info on method or anything for that matter, as there is for salat.

You sure about that?

I strongly recommend reading Loxbox's post here. It is rather illuminating and describes the Quran's usage of the phrase subhan allah in the Quran. Because of it I am confused as to how to interpret occurrences of subhan allah and tasbih, which need more study.

How do you interpret 3017-18 and 20130?

Wakas

You sure about that?

Yes, unless someone can bring a verse to the contrary.

How do you interpret 3017-18 and 20130?

superlative / hyperbole / idiomatic statements. (As a side note, whenever the sun is mentioned, it always seems to be singular)

I compiled the timings of tasbeeh once and I found it was impossible for them to mean specific timings and/or synonymous with the regular/timed salat, no matter how many daily salat I chose. Unless I subjectively ignored some and kept others etc which of course is not a sound method.

ths

You sure about that?

Yes, unless someone can bring a verse to the contrary.

Wakas why do you act impishly sometimes?

I wrote

You sure about that?

I strongly recommend reading Loxbox's post here. It is rather illuminating and describes...

You completely ignored my response because you can't read Arabic, and instead quoted the first part of the sentence and respond as if no verses had been brought.
People have brought verses to the contrary. Just because you haven't come across them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Wakas

Please bring one then.

I actually can read* Arabic but only with tashkeel/vocalisation.

*to understand I'd have to have my resources/books with me of course.

ths

Please bring one then.

They are in red

Wakas

After my post above, I wrote the following
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Conclusion

SBH/glorification of God can come in different forms, including expression through actions and verbally. If timed-SBH is taken as timed-salat then it is a minimum of twice daily (references one, two, three), with an optional night vigil which the messenger likely undertook regularly . If the messenger opted to SBH/glorify more than others, then the individual is also free to do the same.

agphys

@wakas,

http//www.19miracle.org/salats-mathematically-confirmed/

As-Salaatayn

Let me re-post this

Salaam,

This was a good topic. I am sorry I missed out on responding to it. I want to quote this and then respond. The following is from one of Wakas' posts. The color coding is mine.

Pray during the night, specifically the first part of the night (al-layli) (731-7)
When you wake up (7eena taquum) (5248-49)
During the night (min al-layli) (5248-49)
At Dawn (At the retreat of the stars - adbaar al-nujoom) (5248-49)
In the morning (bukratan) (7625-26)
In the evening (aseela) (7625-26)
And a part of the night (min al-layli) (7625-26)
Before the rising of the sun (qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi) (5039-40)
Before the setting of the sun (qabla 'l-ghuroob) (5039-40)
During the night (min al-layli) (5039-40)
During the night (min al-layli) (5116-1
In the early dawn (bil-as7aari - su7oor) (5116-1
Before the rising of the sun (qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi) (20130)
Before the setting of the sun (qabla ghuroobihaa) (20130)
During the night (min 2aanaa2 al-layli) (20130)
At the ends of the day (different from dawn and the evening as they are mentioned in the same verse) (atraaf al-nahaar) (20130)
From the sinking sun to the darkening of the night (dulook il-shamsi ilaa ghasaq al-layli (1778-79)
At dawn (quraan al-fajr) (1778-79)
At night (min al-layli) (1778-79)
In the evening (al-3ashiyyi) (4055)
At dawn (al-ibkaar) (4055)
At two ends of the day (tarafay 'l-nahaari) (11114)
Approaches of the night (zulfan min al-layli) (11114)
In the morning (7eena tusbihuun) (3017-1
In the afternoon (7eena tumsoon) (3017-1
At the setting sun (3ashiyyan) (3017-1
At noon (7eena tudhhiruun) (3017-1
The middle prayer? (Salat al-wusta) (223
A portion of the night (adna min thuluthay al-layli wa-nisfahu wa-thuluthahu) (7320)
At dawn (salat al-fajr) (245
At noon (al-dhaheera) (245
In the evening (salat al-isha) (245

...

It is my opinion that all of the times of prayer other than the times of tasbeeh highlighted in blue can be reduced to fajr and/or 'ishaa. (dawn and dusk).

The time in RED is not a time for tasbeeh or salaat.

The times in pink can be read as 'during' instead of 'before' in the sense of 'to stand before or to be in the face of something.' So 'in the face of the setting and rising of the sun.' As in 'We stood in awe before the rising of the sun and marveled at its great beauty.' The Arabic term 'qabl' also has this meaning as in 'in the face of' which is commonly overlooked.

Lastly, as far as what is in blue, tudh-hiroon as was pointed out before can mean 'to go out' or it can mean to speak up/out. And as was stated before tasbeeh CAN DEFINITELY INCLUDE but DOES NOT DEFINITIVELY IMPLY salaat. Al-wustaa can mean 'best' or 'most moderate.' Best as in quality, not which prayer is the best prayer to make.

In my opinion the most explicit explanation of the two edges of the day, being both day time AND NIGHT are dawn and dusk. And all other times mentioned for prayers can be reduced to these times, either giving details on the definition of dawn and dusk (edge of day, time close to sunset during the night, in the face (qabl) of sunrise and sunset, etc.etc., moderate prayer (wustaa), quality prayer (wustaa))

The times that don't match this can easily be seen as times that we should praise God, but not necessarily in ritualistic Salaat. However, there is nothing forbidding us from praising God in ritualistic Salaat during these times. It is just that these times, while for praise, do not have to be for ritualistic Salaat.

I hope what i have said is helpful.

Salaam

As-Salaatayn

I want to add that I can see how many see 3 Salaat in the Quran based on the alternate interpretation of dulookush-shams as zawaalu-shams meaning afternoon up to sunset as well as sunset and sunrise in its most literal sense. However, I think that this afternoon prayer is not fard. That is because I see this as the least supported, and most ambiguous, timing. Hence I take the noon/afternoon prayer as musta7abb but not fard. As I research, I am seeing that the Shia are the closest to the truth on this issue. However, I have not seen their evidence for 5 salaat during 3 particular times. I think I will continue to dig into their literature.

Wakas

19miracle.org/salats-mathematically-confirmed/

19 numerology cannot confirm anything..... at most it can only add evidence to the table. If you think it can confirm, then I'm not interested in further discussion. Rebuttal based on what Quran says
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Timotheus

'Now we all know that the verses addressing the believers only speak of 2 or 3 prayers per day.'

Right?

'Establish salat at the ends/parts (2) of the day and the approaches/nearness/proximity to the night (3)'

looks clearly like 5 to me.

There are clearly 5 mentions of 'salawat' in the Quran

God uses word repetition as one of his signs eg day 365 month 12 days 30 etc

Wakas

'Establish salat at the ends/parts (2) of the day and the approaches/nearness/proximity to the night (3)'

looks clearly like 5 to me.

You are simply repeating the same erroneous arguments discussed many times on the forum before. As I provided before, please see this link http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

If you actually read the link and still think it is clearly 5, then feel free to start a thread for you and I to discuss this, as long as the following criteria are met

I'm not interested in numerology discussion
a charitable donation fee will be set (e.g. $25 USD) for each point proven to be baseless/weak/illogical/fallacious etc in either of our arguments, i.e. you/I will have to donate $25 per point to charity (with proof). This is so our discussion is not a complete waste of time, i.e. at least a charity will benefit.
you are free to collaborate with as many people you can find who also believe it is 5 - the more the better - as they almost all repeat the same erroneous arguments.

Here is an interesting thing to ponder upon most (all?) longterm forum members do not believe it is 5 salat daily. 5 salat daily is most commonly found in new members. Ponder over why that might be.