The "Immaculate Conception" of Jesus
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Peace, Khalil.
First of all, I wholeheartedly apologize for my comments about you not reading the article. I had no idea my original post saw the light of day before the site crashed as it happened within a short span of time.
Also, the article was aimed at a widespread of Muslims who believe in the "immaculate conception" which includes an instant birth as well. I jumped the gun and included you in this fold. Therefore all the mentioning of the birth from here on out can be omitted as we're only talking about the point of conception and agreeing on a regular term of pregnancy.
What I claimed to have been miraculous regarding Jesus is his CONCEPTION, not his birth. According to The Qur?aan the instance of Jesus? CONCEPTION was indeed MIRACULOUS, and it was indeed the WORD of GOD, i.e. ?BE?, or ?KUN? (in Arabic), which was breathed into Mary?s womb via the holy spirit, Gabriel, and INSTANTANEOUSLY caused the CONCEPTION of Jesus. The name of that particular WORD according to verse 345 was, the Messiah '?sa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary).
(Remember) when the angels said "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be the Messiah '?sa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah.
The argument that "Be!" is not instantaneous still stands.
"There are several verses in the Qur-an indicating similar thoughts, like 2117; 673; 1640; 1935; 3682. The fayakun in response to the command Kun is by no means instant. All human beings are created and destroyed by the word Kun. Let us read a verse regarding the command Kun from Surah Al-Mu'min.
4068 It is He Who gives life and death. And when He decided upon an affair, He says to it "Be" and it is. "
The breathing of the Spirit also has nothing to do with an instantaneous conception.
"327-9 He who created all things in the best way, and He began creation of man from clay, and He made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid; then He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him His spirit. And He gave you hearing and sight and understanding. Little thanks do you give!
This verse relates to man in general and not necessarily to Adam. If you read minutely the process of embryology as mentioned in the Quran, you will find that conception first occurs in the womb by infusion of semen. Thereafter, when the fetus grows to a certain stage, Allah breathes in His Spirit. In other words, He infuses the human soul into the child lying in the womb.
To sum up, breathing is done inside the fetus, after the fertilization, after the fetus has grown inside the womb. Breathing of Spirit and infusion of semen are two different thing occurring at two different stages of birth of a human being."
Can you explain what the expression, ?no man has touched me?, which uttered by Mary, means? Doesn?t it mean she was a VIRGIN? Doesn?t it mean that since no man had touched her, she is a CHASTE woman too?
She was a virgin at the time of the announcement. She said "no man has touched me" because she was wondering if it would happen right at that moment, but Allah answered with "Kazalika" which means things will happen in due time with their natural process, just like the situations with Zakariya and Ibrahim. This by no means indicates that there was conception while she was a virgin. In time, whether she was married or going to get married, she will get pregnant and give birth to the messiah.
The verses 1920-22 below clearly informs us that at the time of CONCEPTION Mary was a VIRGIN and that she was not an unchaste woman. She was wondering how can it be possible to have a son while STILL being a VIRGIN. In 1921 she is told, that is easy for GOD and that Jesus was to be appointed as a SIGN/miracle for the people. In 1922 Mary gets pregnant with Jesus and goes to a far away hiding place not to be seen by the people.
BTW this is why I originally thought you might have believed in a miracle birth, because most people do when reading these events so closely together.
Anyhow, how do these verses show there was a conception instantly? She asks how can she give birth when she is a virgin, and Allah gives an all encompassing answer that indicates it will take it's time. Like the article shows, Allah's answer (kazalika) was applied to many different situations, all which took it's appointed time to happen and did not happen instantly. It would be jumping to conclusion to say this happened instantly.
"In the verse 1921, Mary is talking about two possibilities (1) coming in touch with a man lawfully and (2) coming in touch with a man unlawfully. However, in her own admission, she is not unchaste. So the possibility #2 is out of consideration. This leaves behind the only one possibility - that of coming in touch with a man.
In verse 347, Mary is talking of just one possibility - no man has touched her.
In reply to both the instances Allah said 'even so' or more appropriately, 'likewise'. The word 'likewise' in a way sends back Mary's question in the form of an answer. She can have a child the way she thinks it is possible - without becoming unchaste, by coming in touch with a man legally.
If the readers think that 'kazaliki' Mary became pregnant with the word 'kun' or by blow of spirit, please go back to the above discussion to understand the significance of 'kun' and 'blow of spirit'. This word is not a magical wild card to cause pregnancy."
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place
One can ask why she?d do such a thing if she had nothing to hide and were lawfully married? In 1927,28, and after the birth of Jesus, she brings him home to her family and they start questioning her regarding the baby and her chastity. In 1929-34 the miracle becomes tangible and the newborn Jesus starts talking in defense of his chaste mother and his mission from GOD.
This is just an assumption though, it doesn't mean she was trying to hide from accusations of being unchaste, or else why would she later return knowing she'd receive them anyway? Keep in mind, she got news that she is pregnant with the MESSIAH. Do you have any clue how many Jews would have wanted to kill Mary while she was in her most vulnerable state giving birth? Hence the description of the pain she was in. When she was strong again, she returned and people accused her of being unchaste. And like I said before, the accusations mean nothing as virtually every holy person was accused of being the opposite of what they were.
In 339 Yahya, pbuh, was sent to confirm the coming of the WORD, i.e. Jesus. And yes the whole creation consists of countless WORDS of GOD, Almighty. But the word mentioned in 345 is a particular WORD, namely, ?BE?. The name of this particular WORD was the ?Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary.?
OK, agreed Jesus was called the Word. But this is the point I was trying to make, that the WORD doesn't mean it has to be some specially conceived messiah. It's simply Allah's messages and signs. It's used it many places. No doubt the messiah is a special prophet and a word from Allah. He confirmed the message before him and announced the one coming. This doesn't mean he had to be immaculately conceived. And the article shows "Be" has been used in other places that took time to happen as well.
Can you show us at least one similar case in The Qur?aan other than Jesus, that is CONSISTENTLY being called as son or daughter of his or her mother/father? Doesn?t it tell us something that is completely different about Jesus, pbuh?
No, but that doesn't automatically mean Mary didn't have a husband nor Jesus a father, does it? Or that she was some kind of prophet or something higher like the Catholics believe. The mentioning of Maryam is because of how righteous she was and that she received the revelation from Allah that she will give birth to the messiah, and believed it. That's all. She was a noble woman. Does this mean she had an immaculate conception or was anything more? No. The Quran constantly mentions she is revered for her righteousness, it NEVER associates her being the only woman in history to conceive without intercourse and break all systems of conception set by Allah. Wouldn't that be something worth mentioning at least once?
Also, in other situations that would exclude Jesus if he didn't have a father
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
686 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
687 And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.Or what about the natural order of conception in The Quran?
"The Quran describes in detail about the entire process of procreation or childbirth. The verses are detail and describes the process, starting with the need of sperm (327-8; 7720; 7537; 865-7 etc), union of male and female gametes or pairs (133; 3636; 4312; 4913, 5149; 5345 788etc.) to the ultimate statement in verse 6102 about Allah Himself.
All these verses are broad statements applying to all human being and all living being in general. There are no scope of any exception in any statements and nowhere Allah said He will cause an exception in case of Jesus(pbh). So when Jesus(pbh) is viewed as a person born without a father, there is serious contradiction. Either Allah caused serious discrepancy in several verses (nauzubillah!) or it is the human being who are creating the discrepancy based on our poor understanding and lack of investigative research.
Need of sperm for procreation
327-8 And He began the creation of man from clay. Then He made his progeny
from an extract of a liquid held in light estimation.
5345-46And that He has created the pairs - male and female, from the sperm cell
when it is adapted
7720 Did We not create you from a weak fluid?..
7537 Was he not a sperm out of an ejaculation ejaculated? ..
865-7 So let men consider what he is created of. He is created out of a liquid poured
forth, - coming out from between the back-bone and the breast-bone..Need of pairs and mates for procreation
1672 And Allah makes for you mates from among yourselves and through your
mates He gives you sons and daughters.
5149 And of all things We have created pairs, that perhaps you may be reflecting
3636 Glory be to Him Who creates pairs in everything of it out of what the earth
grows, and among themselves and among what they do not know.
4211 Originator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you mates from
among yourselves, and mates of the cattle. He multiplies you through it...Based on the above verses, particularly 1672, how can Mary have a son born to her without mates? Please note, there is no scope of any exception in any case. So Jesus(pbh) cannot have been born without a sperm cell - in other words, without a father. "
May peace be with you.
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read this post and its links
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602219.msg275609#msg275609Peace, Wakas,
This "sex" thing is quite intriguing. ;D
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Another perspective
Jewish tradition at the time of Jesus held that if a woman conceived before her first menstrual cycle, she had in fact conceived as a virgin. Miraculous? Scientifically, no. Statistically, yes.
It also has to take into account the larger teachings about Jesus. This is where most of you may disagree with me, but I believe the Quran is a clarification. What it explicitly changed needed to be changed (such as the trinity), but what was revealed that was still intact it left alone or confirmed. Therefore, the teachings of Jesus as contained in the gospels are not abrogated by the Quran.
Given this, from where did Jesus get his "culture", in terms of his habits, views of the world, his sense of purpose, etc? Most of us get our culture from our parents. Even though Joseph may have been Jesus' biological father, he did not provide Jesus with his sense of purpose and culture. God did. When you look at Jesus' teachings in, for instance, Matthew chapters 5-7, you can see a world view that would not be typical of a Jewish stonecutter or carpenter living under Roman occupation, not a view of the world Jesus learned from Joseph. Jesus learned it from God, so in one sense, God played more of a paternal role in Jesus' life than his actual father. Jesus' actual parenting in human terms was done by Mary, which is why he is called "son of Mary" in the Quran.
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Given this, from where did Jesus get his "culture", in terms of his habits, views of the world, his sense of purpose, etc? Most of us get our culture from our parents. Even though Joseph may have been Jesus' biological father, he did not provide Jesus with his sense of purpose and culture. God did. When you look at Jesus' teachings in, for instance, Matthew chapters 5-7, you can see a world view that would not be typical of a Jewish stonecutter or carpenter living under Roman occupation, not a view of the world Jesus learned from Joseph. Jesus learned it from God, so in one sense, God played more of a paternal role in Jesus' life than his actual father. Jesus' actual parenting in human terms was done by Mary, which is why he is called "son of Mary" in the Quran.
Interesting view.. which I tend to agree...
- I do believe that Jesus does have a 'biological' father, given Y-chromosome is needed for a baby boy..
- A pregnant virgin (read being pregnant without 'coitus' is hardly a miracle nowadays... have anybody heard of something called 'artificial insemination' a.k.a tube baby?
- I'm always AMAZED and DAZZLED to the fact of how people seems to be 'obsessed' with Jesus virgin birth while nobody pay any attention to the 'miracle' of Isaac and John "OLD MAID BIRTH". Born from an old maid who has passed her menopause without any eggs in her womb.. That's something harder to replicate even with today's technology.
- In the Quran it was said "the similarity' of Jesus is with Adam... which I believe it's true, both have God as their 'father' (guiding / teaching / mentoring figure) although I do believe that both Jesus and Adam does have a biological father and mother.
Salam / Peace
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Interesting view.. which I tend to agree...
- I'm always AMAZED and DAZZLED to the fact of how people seems to be 'obsessed' with Jesus virgin birth while nobody pay any attention to the 'miracle' of Isaac and John "OLD MAID BIRTH". Born from an old maid who has passed her menopause without any eggs in her womb.. That's something harder to replicate even with today's technology.
- In the Quran it was said "the similarity' of Jesus is with Adam... which I believe it's true, both have God as their 'father' (guiding / teaching / mentoring figure) although I do believe that both Jesus and Adam does have a biological father and mother.
Salam / Peace
#3 Absolutely. Completely agree.
#4. I'm sure you know that "son of ..." doesn't mean literally the offspring of someone/something. In the gospels, Jesus calls himself "son of man" in the greek text (huios anthropos). But if the greek text is a transliteration from hebrew/aramaic (which is likely since there are a lot of Hebrew idioms), then Jesus would have referred to himself as "ben adam", or "son of man/Adam", since the name of Adam is also one of the Hebrew words for a man. So it is entirely likely that Jesus considered himself to be a similarity to Adam. Just as the Quran calls him. )Peace,
Joel -
#4. I'm sure you know that "son of ..." doesn't mean literally the offspring of someone/something. In the gospels, Jesus calls himself "son of man" in the greek text (huios anthropos). But if the greek text is a transliteration from hebrew/aramaic (which is likely since there are a lot of Hebrew idioms), then Jesus would have referred to himself as "ben adam", or "son of man/Adam", since the name of Adam is also one of the Hebrew words for a man. So it is entirely likely that Jesus considered himself to be a similarity to Adam. Just as the Quran calls him.
Of course.. the terminology of Hebrew "Ben Elohym" (translated as Son Of God), a singular version of plural "Beney Elohym" (Children/Sons of God) is a Hebrew idiom. It must be understood within Hebrew cultural context and not paganistic concept.
Even Jesus himself clearly clarify what it meant.. as recorded in Gospel according to Matthew..
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God (Hebrew Beney Elohym)"
Matthew 59If one read the Psalm and Songs of Solomon carefully.. David and Solomon too are being called "Son Of God" (Ben Elohym).
All of this mess started when Judaism started to meet Hellenistic Paganism.. and form a 'synchretic culture' which is now known as "Christianity". Within the pagan world; they too have a mythology of "Hercules Son of Zeus" and "Horus Son Of Isis". They figured; this terminology "Son Of God" must be similar in meanings to the conception of "Son Of God" within their existing understanding of "Hercules Son Of Zeus" or "Horus Son Of Isis". (A God mate with another God or a human female named 'Alcmene' in Hercules case; which the give birth to a new God which is kind of a hybrid species of God and human)
I've found an interesting writing from "Early Christians Fathers" about a debate on how Peter blatantly rejected the idea proposed by "Non Jewish Christian Convert" named Simon of the notion that "The Son Of God must be God as well" (as Hercules is a God because he is Son of Zeus which also a God). An idea which proved to be prevalent in the christian world today.
"Peter answered Our Lord (Jesus) never asserted that there were gods except the Creator of all, nor did he proclaim himself to be God, but he with reason pronounced; 'blessed him who called him the Son of that God who has arranged the universe'. And Simon answered ?Does it not seem to you, then, that he who comes from God is God?? And Peter said Tell us how this is possible; for we cannot affirm this, because we did not hear it from him!"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10408.msg53129#msg53129
http//www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vi.iv.xix.xv.htmlQuran seems to be avoiding this misused hebrew idiom of "Ben Elohym" or "Beney Elohym" altogether and makes it clear that Jesus is a human like us. Which is understandable given the main audience of the Quran is yet another culture with deep root in paganism and idol worshiping.
Salam / Peace
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I appreciate all the long answers to the original post. Quite simply, however, being a Koran Aloner means just that and actually accepting what the Koran says. It is plain for even the most biased reader that Mary was a virgin as she states quite clearly that she hasn't been touched. Surely that is the point. What else is there to say, and surely that is the point that God is getting across that yes, she was a virgin, but the Almighty can do what He wants because He rules. Sometimes the intellectualising just goes a little too far.
Peace. -
I appreciate all the long answers to the original post. Quite simply, however, being a Koran Aloner means just that and actually accepting what the Koran says. It is plain for even the most biased reader that Mary was a virgin as she states quite clearly that she hasn't been touched. Surely that is the point. What else is there to say, and surely that is the point that God is getting across that yes, she was a virgin, but the Almighty can do what He wants because He rules. Sometimes the intellectualising just goes a little too far.
Peace.Highlights are from me.
EXACTLY.
Peace,
Khalil -
Of course.. the terminology of Hebrew "Ben Elohym" (translated as Son Of God), a singular version of plural "Beney Elohym" (Children/Sons of God) is a Hebrew idiom. It must be understood within Hebrew cultural context and not paganistic concept.
Absolutely.
I've found an interesting writing from "Early Christians Fathers" about a debate on how Peter blatantly rejected the idea proposed by "Non Jewish Christian Convert" named Simon of the notion that "The Son Of God must be God as well" (as Hercules is a God because he is Son of Zeus which also a God). An idea which proved to be prevalent in the christian world today.
"Peter answered Our Lord (Jesus) never asserted that there were gods except the Creator of all, nor did he proclaim himself to be God, but he with reason pronounced; 'blessed him who called him the Son of that God who has arranged the universe'. And Simon answered ?Does it not seem to you, then, that he who comes from God is God?? And Peter said Tell us how this is possible; for we cannot affirm this, because we did not hear it from him!"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10408.msg53129#msg53129
http//www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.vi.iv.xix.xv.htmlInteresting that you quoted the Clementine Epistles. Scholars think that Simon Magus in these letters are really referring to the "apostle" Paul. They changed his name because the Jewish Monotheist followers of Jesus were pretty quickly dismissed by the Greek Christians, and since the Jewish followers of Jesus were no longer accepted by the Jewish community because they did not follow Bar Kochba, they were on their own and were afraid of persecution from both Jews and Greek Christians.
Quran seems to be avoiding this misused hebrew idiom of "Ben Elohym" or "Beney Elohym" altogether and makes it clear that Jesus is a human like us. Which is understandable given the main audience of the Quran is yet another culture with deep root in paganism and idol worshiping.
Salam / Peace
Since the Quran is the final and universal revelation, I'm not surprised that it is free of these idioms found in previous revelations.
Peace,
Joel -
I appreciate all the long answers to the original post. Quite simply, however, being a Koran Aloner means just that and actually accepting what the Koran says. It is plain for even the most biased reader that Mary was a virgin as she states quite clearly that she hasn't been touched. Surely that is the point. What else is there to say, and surely that is the point that God is getting across that yes, she was a virgin, but the Almighty can do what He wants because He rules. Sometimes the intellectualising just goes a little too far.
Peace.Peace,
All issues surrounding the topic were discussed using the Quran alone.
Secondly, many things may seem clear to us when read superficially. However, we later find things to have a much deeper meaning or a completely different one altogether once you begin cross-referencing and taking the Quran as a whole, rather than a bunch of stand-alone verses. By your ideology, it seems we should simply accept that there is middle prayer, that it is acceptable to beat women in order to resolve marital issues, and that thieves should have their hands cut off simply because that is what we read at first glance. Many of the insights we are privileged to have already are because of lengthy discussions like this one.
May Allah guide us all.
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Absolutely. )
Interesting that you quoted the Clementine Epistles. Scholars think that Simon Magus in these letters are really referring to the "apostle" Paul. They changed his name because the Jewish Monotheist followers of Jesus were pretty quickly dismissed by the Greek Christians, and since the Jewish followers of Jesus were no longer accepted by the Jewish community because they did not follow Bar Kochba, they were on their own and were afraid of persecution from both Jews and Greek Christians.
I don't subscribe to this 'scholar view' that this Simon Magus is actually Paul a.k.a Saul of Tarsus for many reasons, some of those are
- The notion of the discussion indicate that this "Simon Magus" character are lacking the basic understanding of jiewish culture and/or Judaism. His lack of understanding on the basic hebrew idiom of "ben elohym" and also his 'strange' propositions that 'those who came from God is also a God' clearly show his lack of understanding of basic judaism/israelite conception of "God" which differs greatly to the hellenistic and paganism conception of "gods" and "deities".
- While Saul of Tarsus is a jew; he was once a "Judaism Pharisee Fundamentalist", he was once a "Mutaween" (Religious Police) of the Rabbanical Judaism Sanhedrin. Pharisee was the most strict orthodox sect within Judaism during those era; And similar to the "Wahhabis" of today; they tend to over-emphasize on "monotheism" and "tauhid" also ruthlessly hit those who are 'against the religion' and/or trying to 'bend the akedah' (note akedah means bonding was originally a hebrew terminology as well). They persecute Jesus and John's telmudim (students) under the accusation of spreading heresy and 'false prophets'. (Which according to judaism law should be stoned to death)
Saul of Tarsus might made some mistakes and / or he was not a truly honest person; however we should not treat him as 'scapegoat' by putting accusations of things which he didn't do, such as but not limited to; introduction of trinity and other paganistic element within today's christianity.
He did have some debates and/or differing opinions with Peter, James (Jesus's brother, presumably also a son of Mary) and others on the 'applicability of mosaic rites and rules' for those who are non-jewish. Such as circumcision, sabbath day, kosher food (especially pork) etc.. Peter and friends think that those mosaic laws are also applicable for non-jews while Paul think otherwise.
Since the Quran is the final and universal revelation, I'm not surprised that it is free of these idioms found in previous revelations.
Mind you that the Quran never claim it was the final revelation.. show me the verse which show that..
And I do think that it was not the final revelation.. God's revelation is an ongoing process which still happening until today and well up into the future including our children generation..
Muhammad, Jesus and others are dead now but God is forever living....PS I'm not a 'quran aloner' I prefer to call myself as "God alone"..
Salam / Peace
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Another perspective
Jewish tradition at the time of Jesus held that if a woman conceived before her first menstrual cycle, she had in fact conceived as a virgin. Miraculous? Scientifically, no. Statistically, yes.
Peace,
This is very interesting, thank you for sharing. I'm going to look into this. I understand that Mary was very young at the time as well.
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Peace Jafar,
You have definitely done your homework. If you are interested in another view of Paul, you might see if you can get a copy of "Paul The Mythmaker" by Hyam Maccoby. He raises some good points, like why would a "Pharisee of Pharisees" work as hired muscle for a Sadducean High Priest?
I personally use some of Paul's writings from time to time, but I do not believe that he honestly presented himself in his letters.
I think the Quran is the final authority of revelation for this particular time. I do not believe there will be another revelation, though God can do what he wants. IF another revelation comes, it will not be a good thing because it means that things have gotten very, very bad.
Peace,
Joel -
Peace Jafar,
You have definitely done your homework. If you are interested in another view of Paul, you might see if you can get a copy of "Paul The Mythmaker" by Hyam Maccoby. He raises some good points, like why would a "Pharisee of Pharisees" work as hired muscle for a Sadducean High Priest?
No I'm not interested in "Paul's View"..
I do however find many 'similarities' between 'the sectarianism in judean region during jesus era' and 'the sectarianism of today'. Where every sects hate and persecute each other for petty and unfathomable reasons.
And.... it was the 'jewish priesthood' who first invented 'organized religion' in the first place which carries over towards Christianism and Sunniism. The 'saducees + pharisees' persecution of 'Jesus group' had many resemblance with today's Sunnist persecution towards the ahmadis (for example).
That's what interest me... to find the mistakes from 'previous people' and learn from it to avoid repeating the same mistakes.
I think the Quran is the final authority of revelation for this particular time. I do not believe there will be another revelation, though God can do what he wants. IF another revelation comes, it will not be a good thing because it means that things have gotten very, very bad.
My friend Joel, Quran never claimed itself to be the 'last / final revelation' from God.
Most people however think that it is... although no such statement can be found within the Quran.I respect the right for those who believe that it is the final revelation; because there are no compulsory in belief as truth stands out clear from error.
The similitude is like; there are people who think that 'elementary school' is the 'final stage' for his/her education and be satisfied with it while there are those who think otherwise and received further education beyond 'elementary school'.
If you believe that God's revelation has stopped.. so it is then.. for you...The evidence are very simple
According to the Quran it is He (God) who teaches men what they initially knew not..
In which I believe it's true..Now.. 1400 years after the Quran.. our knowledge has grown exponentially.. we understand many new things such as but not limited to electricity, magnetism, micro-biology, chemistry, astronomy, cosmology, physics etc..
So who 'reveal' those things to humanity?? It's a rethoric question by the way..And compared to 1400 years ago, human relatively has grown wiser and more enlightened because all of His guide and revelations..
Revelation is an ongoing process and shall continue even to future generation..
The technical mechanism of bringing those revelation perhaps are different now.. but the objective are the same.. to reveal / enlightened human... that is to those who are willing to be enlightened... or in Quranic or Gospelic term to those who are not 'deaf and blind'..As saith in the Gospel
"Ask and you shall received.. seek and you shall find"...From personal perspective; God's revelation to you.. begin when you were first being born into this world and shall end when you die. So seek it out, ask it out.. while you still have time..
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
No I'm not interested in "Paul's View"..
I do however find many 'similarities' between 'the sectarianism in judean region during jesus era' and 'the sectarianism of today'. Where every sects hate and persecute each other for petty and unfathomable reasons.
Let me rephrase if you want to see the evidence that differs from what you earlier said you believe about Paul, than Maccoby's book is a good place to start. But if you aren't interested in Paul's view, then it doesn't matter.
My friend Joel, Quran never claimed itself to be the 'last / final revelation' from God.
Most people however think that it is... although no such statement can be found within the Quran.You are correct, it does not. But here is how I look at it. I believe we are currently in a period of time where there are no messengers
?The days are coming,? declares the Sovereign LORD,
?when I will send a famine through the land?
not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
People will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east,
searching for the word of the LORD,
but they will not find it (Amos 811-12).Think of it. From the time of Moses, there was a nearly constant stream of prophets and messengers. Until after Mohammed, the seal of the prophets. It has been 1400 years, and we are in a famine of HEARING the word of God. We now READ was was spoken by the prophets.
The evidence are very simple
According to the Quran it is He (God) who teaches men what they initially knew not..
In which I believe it's true..What kind of knowledge is it that God teaches that we do not know? It is the knowledge of supernatural things. The growth of scientific knowledge is merely something that builds upon things we previously knew. In one sense, the potential for knowing all of these things is already latent within humanity anyway. Science does not teach us what we cannot know and discover on our own. God teaches us what is beyond the limits of what we can know.
Now.. 1400 years after the Quran.. our knowledge has grown exponentially.. we understand many new things such as but not limited to electricity, magnetism, micro-biology, chemistry, astronomy, cosmology, physics etc..
So who 'reveal' those things to humanity?? It's a rethoric question by the way..And compared to 1400 years ago, human relatively has grown wiser and more enlightened because all of His guide and revelations..
I know you asked a rhetorical question, but it does deserve further exploration. Is it really God that teaches us these things? Let me ask a question or two in response. Is it possible for a person without electricity, running water, etc, to be rightly guided by God? Is it possible for a person with all of the modern advances in the world to NOT be rightly guided? Of course! All of the things you mentioned are good things. We should see what other good things we can discover. But they are a separate matter from revelation.
As a species, we have not grown wiser and more enlightened. We have medicines that can practically erase the HIV virus from a body, better farming techniques to improve yields, and new ways of filtering water. And yet how many people die daily for lack of these things, all because of greed? What potential for evil do we possess with our military technology?
Nietzsche's Overman has yet to be realized - and never will be. We have philosophically reached the limits of epistemology. Modern philosophers have declared that God is dead, and they have good arguments. And yet humanity overall is in the grip of an existential crisis. We are not growing more enlightened, our pride at our achievements is causing us to transgress the limits.
Again, all of the things you mentioned are good things. But they will not solve humanity's angst. They do not speak to the soul of man. God's word does. While we are in a famine of having a prophetic tradition in the world, we do have God's words for us to read.
Peace to you friend,
Joel -
You are correct, it does not. But here is how I look at it. I believe we are currently in a period of time where there are no messengers
?The days are coming,? declares the Sovereign LORD,
?when I will send a famine through the land?
not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
People will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east,
searching for the word of the LORD,
but they will not find it (Amos 811-12).Think of it. From the time of Moses, there was a nearly constant stream of prophets and messengers. Until after Mohammed, the seal of the prophets. It has been 1400 years, and we are in a famine of HEARING the word of God. We now READ was was spoken by the prophets.
What kind of knowledge is it that God teaches that we do not know? It is the knowledge of supernatural things. The growth of scientific knowledge is merely something that builds upon things we previously knew. In one sense, the potential for knowing all of these things is already latent within humanity anyway. Science does not teach us what we cannot know and discover on our own. God teaches us what is beyond the limits of what we can know.
I know you asked a rhetorical question, but it does deserve further exploration. Is it really God that teaches us these things? Let me ask a question or two in response. Is it possible for a person without electricity, running water, etc, to be rightly guided by God? Is it possible for a person with all of the modern advances in the world to NOT be rightly guided? Of course! All of the things you mentioned are good things. We should see what other good things we can discover. But they are a separate matter from revelation.
My friend, you are thinking that revelation only came through "Nabi/Nevi/Prophet".. (those whose tongue are being 'borrowed' to speak words not from their own).
You are 'imprisoning' yourself to that expectation..The culture / habits of 'prophethood' only happen in 'western culture', semitic culture to be exact where God is being 'personified' as thus He speaks and so on...
Such conception doesn't exist in (for example) eastern culture, where God is not being personified.. as thus there are no 'prophets' within their society..
Yet it doesn't mean that they doesn't received any revelation from It... (Since they refer to God as It rather than Him)There are no such thing as 'super natural', the notion of 'natural' and 'super natural' are defined by human to differentiate "thing that we now understand" and "thing that we now haven't understand".
As time progress and human learned more.. things which was "super natural" became "natural"..
Virgin birth for example... it's hardly a miracle nowadays.. because we now understand how it can be done...The advent of the so-called 'scientific methodology' is also within His plan.. it's something the He revealed..
It also a part of His revelation.. Science is not a 'party' or 'something that give knowledge' it's merely a methodology.. a knowledge that we learn...God teaches us everything that we knew not before.. including (but not limited to) scientific methodology and empirical research. which was a kind of 'quantum leap' from doctrinal / dogmatic methodology.. commonly employed by sectarians..
As a species, we have not grown wiser and more enlightened. We have medicines that can practically erase the HIV virus from a body, better farming techniques to improve yields, and new ways of filtering water. And yet how many people die daily for lack of these things, all because of greed? What potential for evil do we possess with our military technology?
Yes we do.. there are no more 'official slavery', 'human sacrifice' for example..
We now understand thing about Virus and health..
And we now know that there are many people still living in poor condition..While hundred years ago..
Nobody knows about virus.. and nearly everybody are living in poor condition (compare with our standards now)..
But since they didn't know about it.. they didn't complain or see it as a 'problem'...The advent of 'modern weaponry' also has a blessing in disguise.. seeing the 'destructive effect' which modern war can cause.. nation now practiced (relatively) more of a 'self restraint'..
Compare the frequency of war happening in the last century with 19th century for example.. the number has gone down and the casualties has gone down too.. WWI and WWII makes people grew more wiser...They learn now that instead of doing war doing business and trading are more beneficial...
Nation's border are getting less-less relevant... international trade flourishes.. international travel flourishes.. international communication flourishes.. the so-called 'globalization' which (slowly but sure) bring a sense of 'togetherness' accross border. When EU and US economy being hit hard.. (just like now), China also suffers... given less people are able to buy their products... that was just one simple example... When India & China economy grew (just like now) every nation in the world rejoice.. as that mean more business to be made.. more trading to be made with them..
People across the ocean send relief when other people hit hard with a disaster such as tsunami..Something which never happened 1400 years ago...
Nietzsche's Overman has yet to be realized - and never will be. We have philosophically reached the limits of epistemology. Modern philosophers have declared that God is dead, and they have good arguments. And yet humanity overall is in the grip of an existential crisis. We are not growing more enlightened, our pride at our achievements is causing us to transgress the limits.
Again, all of the things you mentioned are good things. But they will not solve humanity's angst. They do not speak to the soul of man. God's word does. While we are in a famine of having a prophetic tradition in the world, we do have God's words for us to read.
I advice you to (for example) go to China.. and seek out whether they are 'wisdomless society'...
They never had any 'prophets'... yet I don't see them as lacking of wisdom..
In many ways I see them relatively 'wiser' than those people who had received many prophets...God sent His revelation to everyone with variety of ways / mechanism...
And God signs are there in the heaven and the earth.. for people to understand..
That is for those who can understand...But nevertheless if you believe that God has stopped His revelation, well then it's your choice.. so it will be then.. for you..
Salam / Peace
