Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
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Peace
I question one of the premises of this whole calendar issue, being the use of the word shahr.
34/12 And for Sulaiman the wind, its morning was a full moon and its rawu was a full moon
I've left rawu untranslated as I don't believe it means afternoon. In any case, the above verse makes no sense to me when shahr is made to mean "full moon".
2/194 The sacred full moon with the sacred full moon and the sacred rites is qiun.
Again, making shahr to mean full moon presents problems.
2/197 The aj (is) full moons known,
We see translations insert the word "during" here.
9/5 uses the term l-ashhuru - "the full moons" Yet in 9/36 we see l-shuhri - "the full moons". What's the difference between the two words?
Regarding 9/36, the article "Blind Dating Versus Perfect Timing" linked earlier says,
"What The God is telling us is that we should always count 12 full moons in a year"
The word "year" is not in the verse. The word man is used in the next verse, but the article doesn't explore why this word and sanatin are both translated as "year" in the quran. In fact in 10/5, which is used in the article, l-sinna is translated as "the years".
9/37 also begins with the word "only" - does this mean that only the delaying is kuf'r but bringing forward is okay?
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I've been thinking about this extensively, and I think the winter Ramadan makes more sense for the following reasons
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The fast, according to the verses that discuss it, say that God did not intend for it to be a hardship. Fasting close to the winter solstice would mean the shortest days possible, making the fast less of a hardship than if fasting close to the summer solstice when the days are at their longest.
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Prior revelation, in my very n00b opinion, supports a winter fast. Before anyone starts throwing rotten food at me, hear me out.
First, I suspect that R-M-D may be a loan root from Aramaic (no, I don't buy that crap about the Quran being written in Syriac). "Taurat" and "Injeel" are loan words from Hebrew and Greek, so why not? The root means wonder/amazement/marvel. There happens to be a fall fast of 10 days in the Jewish tradition that also marks the beginning of the new year. AND it is called the Days of Awe. Notice the similarity in "awe" to "wonder/amazement/marvel"?
The fast of the Days of Awe also marks the creation of the world. Early Christian thinking viewed the advent of Jesus to be a kind of revisiting of the creation of the world, creating it anew. Compare the first chapter of John's gospel with the first chapter of Genesis. Clearly, the author of John's gospel was drawing a parallel with the coming of the word from God (Jesus) to the creation of the world.
So, again in my very n00b opinion, a winter 10 day Ramadan fast that also marks the beginning of the calendar year, seems to make the most sense, maintaining what was still accurate from revelation to the Jews, but correcting the fall fast of the Jews to bring it in line with the conception of the Messiah. On a related note, there are problems with the Jewish calendar according to the Torah because there are actually two "new year" dates. One is Rosh Hashanah (the first of the Days of Awe), and the other is the giving of the Torah. The holiday of the giving of the Torah has to be figured based on the first omer of winter barley at harvest time, so it moves solely based on crops. Rabbis use a formula from the Talmud to "correct" this agrarian approach, but the winter Ramadan solution is a better one.
Any thoughts?
-JoelPeace,
It would be nice to believe the fasting is after the Winter Solstice, but we do need the evidence as well. If one believes that Jesus was conceived at the time of Mary receiving the announcement of bearing the Messiah, I suppose this theory would make sense, but otherwise it doesn't. And there is strong evidence that Jesus wasn't conceived at that moment.
Interesting about the root of the word, but the strongest definition of Ramadan does seem to mean something along the lines of "scorching heat". I find it odd that Allah would use the word simply to follow the name of the man-made month, than for it to hold a more significant meaning. Also the Four Restricted Months seem to make more sense placed at the time of wildlife birth and child-rearing than the time of mating. It's close in line with today's hunting laws as well.
I'm still unsure on the whole matter myself, either way. I'm just bouncing ideas around. -\
May Allah guide us all.
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Peace
I question one of the premises of this whole calendar issue, being the use of the word shahr.
34/12 And for Sulaiman the wind, its morning was a full moon and its rawu was a full moon
I've left rawu untranslated as I don't believe it means afternoon. In any case, the above verse makes no sense to me when shahr is made to mean "full moon".
2/194 The sacred full moon with the sacred full moon and the sacred rites is qiun.
Again, making shahr to mean full moon presents problems.
2/197 The aj (is) full moons known,
We see translations insert the word "during" here.
9/5 uses the term l-ashhuru - "the full moons" Yet in 9/36 we see l-shuhri - "the full moons". What's the difference between the two words?
Regarding 9/36, the article "Blind Dating Versus Perfect Timing" linked earlier says,
"What The God is telling us is that we should always count 12 full moons in a year"
The word "year" is not in the verse. The word man is used in the next verse, but the article doesn't explore why this word and sanatin are both translated as "year" in the quran. In fact in 10/5, which is used in the article, l-sinna is translated as "the years".
9/37 also begins with the word "only" - does this mean that only the delaying is kuf'r but bringing forward is okay?
Salaam
Shahr is the full lunar month, which starts from the appearance of the cresent to the end of the month "...until it returns like an old palm sheath" making it a full month/moon/shahr.
What we call a full moon in English is actully only a half moon, as it has but reached the middle of its journey. Shahr is simply the lunar month and the problem has been created by some people seeing it from a modern translation of Arabic into English concepts.
The second confusion started as Ramadan only applies to those who witness it. Witnessing is always related to time for example when one gives testimony its always on such and such occassion when a specific occurence happened, so only those who witness breakdown of day and night into a month of Ramadan shall fast therein.
6714 Would He not know who has created? And He is eternally Aware/Knowledgeable au fait of all niceties and delicacies/subtlety/refinements.
The one who created this world knew of places where a month does not happen in terms of day and night breakdown so those living in places like that were the ones who do not witness the month of Ramadan, as seperation of day breaking and approach of the night is vital requirement for fasting. But when it comes to prayers they are not exempted, as they are not forgotten. Their timing is clearly given according to their region, as in 20130Peace
farida -
Peace,
It would be nice to believe the fasting is after the Winter Solstice, but we do need the evidence as well. If one believes that Jesus was conceived at the time of Mary receiving the announcement of bearing the Messiah, I suppose this theory would make sense, but otherwise it doesn't. And there is strong evidence that Jesus wasn't conceived at that moment.
Interesting about the root of the word, but the strongest definition of Ramadan does seem to mean something along the lines of "scorching heat". I find it odd that Allah would use the word simply to follow the name of the man-made month, than for it to hold a more significant meaning. Also the Four Restricted Months seem to make more sense placed at the time of wildlife birth and child-rearing than the time of mating. It's close in line with today's hunting laws as well.
I'm still unsure on the whole matter myself, either way. I'm just bouncing ideas around. -\
May Allah guide us all.
I see both sides of the argument. Since I don't know Arabic, I have to make most of my arguments from prior revelation where I see them fit with translations of the Quran.
Personally, I think a winter conception is supported by the gospels. Jesus' birth happened under a period of census, which would not have been enacted to interfere with planting and harvesting in the spring and summer. This leaves winter and fall as the choices for seasons of his birth. Winter is improbable if the announcement to the shepherds is true. They would not be out at night with sheep, at least not comfortably, in winter. There may also be another clue in John's gospel. John 114 - "The word became flesh and dwelled among us..." The greek word "dwelled" refers to sojourning in a tent, which could refer to the birth happening during the time of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jews live in tents to commemorate the sojourn from Egypt. This feast happens in the fall, around September or October depending on the year. So, if a fall birth is plausible, count back 9 or 10 months for a normal gestation (1st births tend to go longer), then a late December conception date is the most reasonable.
But again, this is not an argument from the Quran. The only one I can think of is the references to the prophet being cloaked or wrapped in his garments at the revelation of the first suras. Wouldn't this support cooler night time temperatures in the winter?
I think a practical benefit of a summer Ramadan is the effect it has on the human body. I've pretty consistently followed a calorie-restricted diet for the past 3 years, and I can tell you the first summer I clearly noticed a difference in how heat affected me. The building where I work is not air-conditioned, so we get window units to make it bearable. When I ate somewhere between 1,200 to 1,500 calories a day, some days I did not even need to turn the window unit on.
But I'm not sure about it being tied to the summer solstice. Typically, the hottest temperatures don't occur until a month after the summer solstice because it takes time for the sun to raise the overall temperatures of the soil and large bodies of water.
I just don't know. I was going to observe Ramadan this summer, and then I read Layth's posts and read the related chapters from The Natural Republic. I believe the Quran is clear guidance, so what is it that is right in front of our eyes that we are missing?
Highlights are from me.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602533.msg280437#msg280437
Peace,
KhalilThe traditional approach to Ramadan is a pragmatic one, but the problem I find with it is it becomes completely ahistorical. The revelation of the Quran is an event in history. It happened at a specific time of year. A rotating observance of Ramadan does not recognize this fact.
Peace farida,
I question this as well. If you look at the points I raised in my last post, inserting "month" into those verses presents problems as well.
Peace Mushu,
I think a very easy mistake to make with any language is to assume that a word means the same thing in every context. Hebrew has several words that can mean a wide range of things depending on the context. For instance, "olam" can refer to eternity, an indefinitely long period of time, a fixed period of time based on the context, and with a masculine pronoun can also refer to God. All languages have words that require fluid contextual interpretation.
-Joel
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...But again, this is not an argument from the Quran. The only one I can think of is the references to the prophet being cloaked or wrapped in his garments at the revelation of the first suras. Wouldn't this support cooler night time temperatures in the winter?...
...I just don't know. I was going to observe Ramadan this summer, and then I read Layth's posts and read the related chapters from The Natural Republic. I believe the Quran is clear guidance, so what is it that is right in front of our eyes that we are missing?...
...The traditional approach to Ramadan is a pragmatic one, but the problem I find with it is it becomes completely ahistorical. The revelation of the Quran is an event in history. It happened at a specific time of year. A rotating observance of Ramadan does not recognize this fact...
Highlights above are from me.
The Islamic lunar calendar was not invented with the advent of The Qur?aan. The lunar calendar has been around and being used on a regular basis long before the revelation of The Qur?aan. The month of Ramadan is only the NAME of the NINTH month in that particular calendar. This calendar has, CONSTANTLY, ONLY 12 months in it, and is around 11 days shorter than the solar calendar. That is why the lunar calendar months, CONSTANTLY, move through the 4 seasons. By the same token the month of Ramadan just like any other lunar month can fall in spring, summer, fall, or winter. So, the revelation of The Qur?aan could have started in any season. Also, we should keep in mind that the revelation of The Qur?aan took around 23 years to COMPLETE. It was not revealed all at the same time, and I believe that, its revelation did BEGIN in the month of Ramadan, just as The Qur?aan claims.
My point here is that, GOD?S SYSTEM is a JUST system and it will never change. It is a JUST system because for example regarding the month of Ramadan, if it is going to be within a fixed month, falling within a fixed season every year, it?s going to be favorable and very easy for some people and unfavorable and hard for others. If for example Ramadan is in summer all the time, year after year, the fasting is going to be long and hard for the people living in the northern hemisphere and very short and easy for the residents of the southern hemisphere. This does not hold water within GOD?S system of JUSTICE.
Now, if the months of FASTING and HAJJ and? move around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, then everyone gradually goes through all the seasons of the year and no one will be wronged.
Peace,
Khalil -
The Islamic lunar calendar was not invented with the advent of The Qur?aan. The lunar calendar has been around and being used on a regular basis long before the revelation of The Qur?aan. The month of Ramadan is only the NAME of the NINTH month in that particular calendar. This calendar has, CONSTANTLY, ONLY 12 months in it, and is around 11 days shorter than the solar calendar. That is why the lunar calendar months, CONSTANTLY, move through the 4 seasons. By the same token the month of Ramadan just like any other lunar month can fall in spring, summer, fall, or winter.
I see what you are saying, but a strictly lunar calendar is completely useless for anything practical. You can't plan more than a few months in advance, you can't plant crops by it, you can't plan sea voyages by it, you can't hunt by it. A lunar calendar only works when it is used in conjunction with a solar calendar. Precedence in prior revelation of the Torah favors a luni-solar calendar. A lunar calendar is just so unweildy that it would have to be used for nothing else but scheduling the fasting month of Ramadan. It just doesn't make any sense.
Are there any references to Ramadan outside of the Quran from sources that predate the Quran? I've mostly heard people say no, but I'm willing to examine the evidence.
My point here is that, GOD?S SYSTEM is a JUST system and it will never change. It is a JUST system because for example regarding the month of Ramadan, if it is going to be within a fixed month, falling within a fixed season every year, it?s going to be favorable and very easy for some people and unfavorable and hard for others. If for example Ramadan is in summer all the time, year after year, the fasting is going to be long and hard for the people living in the northern hemisphere and very short and easy for the residents of the southern hemisphere. This does not hold water within GOD?S system of JUSTICE.
Now, if the months of FASTING and HAJJ and? move around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, then everyone gradually goes through all the seasons of the year and no one will be wronged.
Peace,
KhalilIt would be a just system if Ramadan were a requirement for every muslim. I'm not sure the Quran says that Ramadan is for everyone, though fasting in some form or another is a requirement of every muslim. Some things God has revealed are confined within a particular time and place, and not universally applicable.
Peace,
Joel -
I see both sides of the argument. Since I don't know Arabic, I have to make most of my arguments from prior revelation where I see them fit with translations of the Quran.
Personally, I think a winter conception is supported by the gospels. Jesus' birth happened under a period of census, which would not have been enacted to interfere with planting and harvesting in the spring and summer. This leaves winter and fall as the choices for seasons of his birth. Winter is improbable if the announcement to the shepherds is true. They would not be out at night with sheep, at least not comfortably, in winter. There may also be another clue in John's gospel. John 114 - "The word became flesh and dwelled among us..." The greek word "dwelled" refers to sojourning in a tent, which could refer to the birth happening during the time of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jews live in tents to commemorate the sojourn from Egypt. This feast happens in the fall, around September or October depending on the year. So, if a fall birth is plausible, count back 9 or 10 months for a normal gestation (1st births tend to go longer), then a late December conception date is the most reasonable.
But again, this is not an argument from the Quran. The only one I can think of is the references to the prophet being cloaked or wrapped in his garments at the revelation of the first suras. Wouldn't this support cooler night time temperatures in the winter?
I think a practical benefit of a summer Ramadan is the effect it has on the human body. I've pretty consistently followed a calorie-restricted diet for the past 3 years, and I can tell you the first summer I clearly noticed a difference in how heat affected me. The building where I work is not air-conditioned, so we get window units to make it bearable. When I ate somewhere between 1,200 to 1,500 calories a day, some days I did not even need to turn the window unit on.
But I'm not sure about it being tied to the summer solstice. Typically, the hottest temperatures don't occur until a month after the summer solstice because it takes time for the sun to raise the overall temperatures of the soil and large bodies of water.
I just don't know. I was going to observe Ramadan this summer, and then I read Layth's posts and read the related chapters from The Natural Republic. I believe the Quran is clear guidance, so what is it that is right in front of our eyes that we are missing?
Peace MaverickMonotheist,
Interesting. I do believe it's possible for Jesus to have been conceived around December. Even the "rhutab" season point put forth by TNR was pretty logical. But the major link described in TNR to relate the two incidents is the Spirit/Angels coming down at both the conception of Jesus and the Night of Decree. If one does NOT believe in the immaculate conception, then that means though Jesus may have been conceived around December, this doesn't mean the Spirit/Angels were present at this time of season as the announcement could have come at any time by the Spirit/Angels, and then Jesus was conceived around the Winter later on after Mary married/had intercourse, etc.
From what I gather from the thread I made in the general section, The "Immaculate Conception" of Jesus, you don't seem to believe in the event neither. So that breaks the link as far as I'm concerned. But even if we do find out the Spirit/Angels were present at the time, are those 2 events enough to make the link?
The Summer Solstice theory at least utilizes the meaning behind the word Ramadan. Like I said, it's quite difficult to believe Allah would just use the man-made month name "Ramadan", that holds the meaning of "scorching heat", but that it be a month that can happen any time or during the Winter. This Ramadan would be the first Full Moon after the Summer Solstice, so it will typically be a few weeks after the solstice meaning it would be quite hot, if not the hottest.
Ah, that's the question, what is it that we are missing... I've read a few other theories and none seem to hold as much weight as these two, perhaps we're not far from figuring it out. At least when it comes to J-Day Allah can see we were trying and not following some random calendar. P
May peace be with you.
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Peace Joel,
Peace Mushu,
I think a very easy mistake to make with any language is to assume that a word means the same thing in every context. Hebrew has several words that can mean a wide range of things depending on the context. For instance, "olam" can refer to eternity, an indefinitely long period of time, a fixed period of time based on the context, and with a masculine pronoun can also refer to God. All languages have words that require fluid contextual interpretation.
-Joel
Even so, the word used has to fit the structure used in the verse concerned. If shahr is month, how does one witness a month?
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Peace Joel,
Even so, the word used has to fit the structure used in the verse concerned. If shahr is month, how does one witness a month?
Salaam
6714 Would He not know who has created? And He is eternally Aware/Knowledgeable au fait of all niceties and delicacies/subtlety/refinements.
The one who created this world knew of places where a month does not happen in terms of day and night breakdown. For exampleduring this Ramadan those living in northern countries are not witnessing the breaking of the day and ending of the day, into thirty days, the sun does not set there its another thing that they set arbitary days for daily routine.
To observe fast of Ramadan, seperation of day breaking and approach of the night is vital requirement for starting and ending it and those who do not see clear days and nights can not fast according to guide line set out in the Qur'an
Peace
farida -
Selam
Question If we use the winter or summer argument, will the north and south-hemispher observe ramadan at different times? Also, how about those people who live close to the north and south poles, how will they observe ramadan? Also, is it really about fasting or is there something else to it?
Peace
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Peace Eikonoklastes,
So that breaks the link as far as I'm concerned. But even if we do find out the Spirit/Angels were present at the time, are those 2 events enough to make the link?
I'm not sure it breaks the link. The spirit sent from God can, and does, touch things that are completely natural. As for whether or not those 2 events are enough, I don't know. Like I said, I see both sides.
The Summer Solstice theory at least utilizes the meaning behind the word Ramadan. Like I said, it's quite difficult to believe Allah would just use the man-made month name "Ramadan", that holds the meaning of "scorching heat", but that it be a month that can happen any time or during the Winter. This Ramadan would be the first Full Moon after the Summer Solstice, so it will typically be a few weeks after the solstice meaning it would be quite hot, if not the hottest.
The meaning of the root does have weight for a summer fast, I'll admit. Unless the "scorching heat" refers to something else, perhaps the closeness of God as a consuming fire during the revelation of the Quran, like Moses' experience of the burning bush and pillar of fire, etc?
Ah, that's the question, what is it that we are missing... I've read a few other theories and none seem to hold as much weight as these two, perhaps we're not far from figuring it out. At least when it comes to J-Day Allah can see we were trying and not following some random calendar.
Agreed, I think these two theories are the best. Hopefully someone will have an "a-ha" moment and see the missing piece of the puzzle.
Also, is it really about fasting or is there something else to it?
I think it is about conformity and unity. Fasting can be done anytime. But there is something about the unifying of a group that happens when you participate in something like Ramadan together.
Peace,
Joel -
Peace Joel,
Even so, the word used has to fit the structure used in the verse concerned. If shahr is month, how does one witness a month?
Dude, that's easy. Just look at the calendar ;D
Btw, seriously, Joel, you should also take a serious look at the word Shawm itself, instead of just following the generally assumed meaning of "fasting".
I think it is about conformity and unity. Fasting can be done anytime. But there is something about the unifying of a group that happens when you participate in something like Ramadan together.
The practice of fasting across the world/religions/traditions/history surely has a lot to do with "conformity". Do you however really think that fasting is the most "unifying" act human beings can perform?
Anyway, war is among the first things I would think of when someone speaks about "scorching heat" (I also imagined a majestic mushroom cloud).
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Peace
Salaam
6714 Would He not know who has created? And He is eternally Aware/Knowledgeable au fait of all niceties and delicacies/subtlety/refinements.
The one who created this world knew of places where a month does not happen in terms of day and night breakdown.Not sure what this means. A month happens everywhere, because its just a duration of time. So a month happens regardless of day and night breakdown. My point was how does one witness a month? Sure, you can witness sunrise and sunset, but I don't see how that fits with the verse.
Dude, that's easy. Just look at the calendar ;D
;D
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Peace
Not sure what this means. A month happens everywhere, because its just a duration of time. So a month happens regardless of day and night breakdown. My point was how does one witness a month? Sure, you can witness sunrise and sunset, but I don't see how that fits with the verse.
Salaam
As I understand in places where sun does not rise or sets there is constant day or night with shades of lightness and darkness, moon rises and sets but no clear division of day and night into thirty sections which makes a month. Time there is calculated like anywhere else in the world.
peace -
I think a good many of you are unaware that life exists south of the equator... where as the northern hemisphere's winter solstice being the shortest day of the year is also the southern hemisphere's summer solstice being the longest day of the year therefor the logic is reversed on most points made about that. So point being that whether you are a proponent of the winter solstice being the night of decree or Ramadan or whether the summer time being the time of Ramadan then the reverse is true based on your logic which makes it illogical.