Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Bob , Thank u for this site, fiest time I see someone who understood that ZAWJ isn't wife,
412 And for you half what left your wives (azwjukum) ...
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I have read through the little text in the site given by Bob. I agree with the general meaning that is givn for zina. I think I said somewhere else, that in 24 it is not so much about sex, but about social mores, and what people owe each other and society in general. In 4.21 marriage is called mithaq ghalith, the same as God calls His covenants with he prophets and the people. Therefore zina in the context of Qur'an is not about sex, but about faithfulness, responsibility, seriousness... But as it happens and as I think Qur'an teaches, sex is not casual. Sex is not an entertainment industry, is not entertainment even if it can be pleasurable. That is a gift from God, that things that are usful are also made pleasant, except delivery, which most of the time is painful. People's bodies are not expendable nor goods.
Some people here speak about sex before marriage and include in that those situations in which couples live together but are not married. As far as I am concerned, what those couples maintain is marriage. They and society may choose not to call it that, but tht is what it is. It is a stable and exclusive relationship
with mutual obligations and with a shared home. In fact under common law those are considered marriages, and in countries without common law they are considered de facto marriages. There is a pact either implicit or explicit, there is publicity, in the sense that it is public and live publicly as a couple. The fact that it is not called marriage comes from previous history where women were classified as mistresses or wives, in a civilisation where divorce was not comtemplated till very recently in historical terms, but the facts are the same.Zina thereforein 24 is about that, and the lashes or stripes or whatever are not for the sin, but for the significance and publicity. If four witnesses are required, it is precisely to avoid policing of people. The problems pointed out by Bob do not stem from the Qur'an which states clearly that both actors in the fact, in case four witnesses testify are t be punished equally. So if somebody picks the zaniya and not the zani or if somebody considers rape a zina, tht is not from the Qur'an, and people who do that, are simple laughing at the Qur'an and they would laugh at the Qur'an equally even if the Qur'an said something else. If somebody is determined to do as he or she pleases and not according to law, they will. That is not a problem with the law, but with the people. Obviously when that gets completely out of hand, redressing the situation is hell, because no matter what law you come up with, those who hold the belief that law is not for them and that it is their good right to be on top no mtter what, will find the way to go around the law. That has nothing to do with wisdom of the law or the lack of it. In fact those are the hypocrites we know that time on them is wasted.
And the bulk of 4.24 that is about zina deals precisely with evil talk and salndering and thing ill and evil of other people, particularly women. ?Why didn't you think the best? Asks the Qur'an. Therefore, we cannot go around acussing anybody of zina without clear undoubtable witnesses, four, of the fact without any othr possibility of interpretation or explanation, because we are asked and admonished that we should think the best. We are not entitled to think otherwise. Our suspicions, must stay suspicions and for ourselves.
Salaam
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Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
because i see when Allah talks about wives or husbunds commits an adultery is called FAHISHA , and there is even a verse that if your wife comes with fahisha u need 4 witnesses and keep her confined ( home or jail ) and i believe it's vice versa for menFor young people who are not married , I believe there is no punishement for sex except from Allah, for the verse of Khitbat Nisaa allah say , talk to them correct because Allah see what u do !!!!
MAin point is , i think Zania and Zani are the prostitute and it's client or the pimp !!!
Can anyone clear it upZ00000mg really? HOW YOUNG!? ... D nvm i thought u said no punishment at all lol
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Thank you everybody for your input on this topic.
24.2..The woman and the man guilty of adultery (unlawful sexual relations) severely whip each of them with a hundred stripes Do not let kindness move you in their case--In a matter that is already decided by Allah, if you (truly) believe in Allah and the Last Day And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.
That is the English translation in my copy of the Koran, and it literally makes me physically ill. First off, I will say that I do think it is wise to keep sex within the confines of a marriage. I think the act should be something sacred, and submission to this particular confinement is a gift, and is in an individual's best interest.
I am glad to hear that this possibly isn't a good translation, because I find it simply terrible.
As has already been mentioned in this thread, there are so many real evils going on in the world wars (and the accompanying profiteering from these wars), starvation, abuse of power, etc. If a man or woman is actually guilty of adultery, what's wrong with showing kindness and forgiveness? What kind of sick freak could even administer this sort of punishment?
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What I fear about these punishments, are that they are abused by hipocrites, who would claim "adultery" when theres none, and bear false testimony. Or simply the way sunnis call Quran Aloners infidels. Therefore I appreciate the milder western punishments. No big error can be done that way.
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By definition, zinaa is performing intercourse with someone to whom you are not married. Thus, a zaani is one who has performed intercourse with someone to whom they are not married. As such, both prostitution and adultery (with intercourse) fall under the scope of this definition. Thus, the common trend amongst the translators of rendering zinaa as adultery in English is not befitting.
The English language does not have a word for making this distinction, namely, intercourse inside or outside of wedlock.
Further, by definition, a faahisha is any abominable act; and zinaa, as the Quran points out, is one such act.
In stipulating the necessity of four witnesses for the occasioning of punishment, perhaps The Author's intention was to cover up the blunders of those who commit such an act (owing to the sizable improbability of such a condition being fulfilled).
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Perhaps a wiser idea is to check what Torah has to say on this one too.
Peace,
R. -
Peace,
Am not convinced that the Word Zina is sex related, this has been the traditional understanding, and we are tying to fit it while it doesn't make sense.Quran is common sense, specially for crime and punishments.
When there is a crime, a punishment equivalent is decided and presented to the victims victims to decide.Now is sex a crime?
If it is how can you go on and prove it.
Are we supposed to walk 4x4 on the street just in case we might stumble on some one having sex?
and then we approach them and enquire about their identities, and see whether they are married to each other or not? maybe by checking a wedding certificate?
Would I need then to forge one every time I engage with my extramarital adventures?As you can see this doesn't make sense!
Sex isn't a crime and this is why God "told" us it's better for both of us to keep faithful..
It is not something like a Police has to enforce it!Secondly, in a small village it easy to guess who is doing who..
But in a big city like Sao Paulo, how are you going to check it out?Every now and then 4 people turn up at the door and enquire about who are you with and what are you doing and .. etc..
I mean all this zina talk doesn't make sense realy..
I think we should look with a different eye, as if we never heard this word Zina before..not try to assume it is sex.. and then we try to come up with excuses like what the Hadith lovers like doing, when they want o justify something that has no sense to begin with by inventing idealistic preconditions.. for instance.. they will be punished only if they had enough money to get married!We are in society where children below the age of 15 engage in sex.. are you saying that these children we got to flog them 100 each for discovering something natural.??
The more brains there are the better explanation God will reveal to us.
Peace sex and Love. ;D
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Peace,
Am not convinced that the Word Zina is sex related, this has been the traditional understanding, and we are tying to fit it while it doesn't make sense.Quran is common sense, specially for crime and punishments.
When there is a crime, a punishment equivalent is decided and presented to the victims victims to decide.Now is sex a crime?
If it is how can you go on and prove it.
Are we supposed to walk 4x4 on the street just in case we might stumble on some one having sex?
and then we approach them and enquire about their identities, and see whether they are married to each other or not? maybe by checking a wedding certificate?
Would I need then to forge one every time I engage with my extramarital adventures?As you can see this doesn't make sense!
Sex isn't a crime and this is why God "told" us it's better for both of us to keep faithful..
It is not something like a Police has to enforce it!Secondly, in a small village it easy to guess who is doing who..
But in a big city like Sao Paulo, how are you going to check it out?Every now and then 4 people turn up at the door and enquire about who are you with and what are you doing and .. etc..
I mean all this zina talk doesn't make sense realy..
I think we should look with a different eye, as if we never heard this word Zina before..not try to assume it is sex.. and then we try to come up with excuses like what the Hadith lovers like doing, when they want o justify something that has no sense to begin with by inventing idealistic preconditions.. for instance.. they will be punished only if they had enough money to get married!We are in society where children below the age of 15 engage in sex.. are you saying that these children we got to flog them 100 each for discovering something natural.??
The more brains there are the better explanation God will reveal to us.
Peace sex and Love. ;D
ZANI, ZANIA, is OBSCENITY , Zani is the obscene
notice in surah al Nour, Zani and Zania doesn't need 4 witnesses for punishement.
just as Zani and zaniya aren't the adulters , but the obscene people , the mi'ata jalda isn't also a 100 stripes
a stripe is arabic is SAWT, or SIWAT , jalda is a jail or in frensh Jouloise. the number hundred could indicate a 100 says, or months, or just a long time.
Allah knows best -
A recurring argument which I have noticed in use almost exclusively by individuals of the Quran Alone movement, which, it must be noted is a relatively modern argument, is the argument of words signifying significations other than those which they have acquired through linguistic use over the course of many centuries. I reject the validity of this argument, outright, based on the following two arguments.
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The first argument can be summed up by the mantra oft-quoted by scholars of semantics, and that is "Meaning is use." There can be no other way for a word to acquire a meaning other than by way of its being employed in speech or writing. Thus, the signification of a word can be known through only one of two ways. The first is that an individual must have heard that word being used in speech enough times to the effect that he can form a sound idea of how that word is used, and therefore, what it signifies. The second is that an individual can compile a corpus with enough entries of that word to the effect that he can form a sound idea of how that word is used, and therefore, what it signifies. Now, I accept the possibility that some Quranic words are used in ways which confer to them variations of presently existing meanings, or they can introduce new meanings altogether. However, such words must, I repeat, must be used enough times to allow for that possibility. And if this is not the case, then the only significations we can use to understand the Quran are those which the Arabic language itself admits. Thus it is my opinion that verbs and nouns which have only been used 2 or 3 times in the Quran, like zanaa, saraqa, khamr, and maysir, can only mean to fornicate, to steal, wine (or intoxicant), and games of chance, respectively, without modulation of the presently existing meaning.
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The second argument is that if the first argument does not hold true, then there can be no way of knowing which signification The Author intended in the use of any given word, hence, chaos, hence, no guidance, hence, eternal loss.
Meaning is use.
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- The second argument is that if the first argument does not hold true, then there can be no way of knowing which signification The Author intended in the use of any given word, hence, chaos, hence, no guidance, hence, eternal loss.
Small clarification. If by "no way of knowing" you mean that once all avenues are exhausted, e.g. cross-reference, logic etc and they yield no clues as to the usage, then yes, I agree.
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Sorry to disappoint you on this one
The main reason I'm advancing this argument is that, words meanings are lost with the wrong interpretation.Example Hidjab for almost everyone mean a women dress.. but it's not.
Waled Awlad, in many countries mean boys, but in reality it means children..
there are so many examples where words acquired through tradition a different meaning.
Tradition is not the word of God.Even if everyone think that Al zina is fornication it doesn't mean it is the truth.
Common sense has to prevail.Bottom line is that, while God is insisting in the preservation of life, Satan wants from human to perform blood sacrifice and spend their time thinking about how to punish people,
and spill blood as a sacrifice for him through ritualistic traditions, such as circumcision,
sacrifice of the sheep, stoning and cutting of the heads and the hands. -
zani and zanya is the ones who ask for more of what they need...this is why the zani doesn't make a relationship except with a zanya
I.E
The one who wants more than what he need and made a relationship with another girl...she also must be asking for more than what she needs....it is a fact not an order....to force zanya and zany to marry each other or some thing like that.
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@ Wakas
Yes. A corpus involves studying every instance of the word in question and forming, thereby, an understanding of that word.
@ foralgerian
In that case, the burden of proof lies with you. You must use extra-Quranic sources dating back to centuries which are immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation to demonstrate that the word in question signifies the meaning which you here propose.
@ SeekingYou
You've completely lost me.
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It is funny to see this discussion. Some people here namely woman-haters Fahad and Obour are trying to convince people that only married women should be punished for having sex with another man, while married men should not be punished for having sex with another woman and similary anti-woman statements can be found among with the followers of the hadiths who claim that when a woman is being raped she is the one to punish for adultery.
However, other people here are trying to justify fornication and adultery by claiming that God nowhere says that you cannot cheat your wife or husband or that you can not have a one night stand and that he certainly did not said that by saying 'zina'. These are typical sexual active people who somehow tryes to justify their sex engagements by demanding sexual freedom in the name of the Quran. Very few people here tries to actually understand what God is telling us.Peace,
Am not convinced that the Word Zina is sex related, this has been the traditional understanding, and we are tying to fit it while it doesn't make sense.Quran is common sense, specially for crime and punishments.
When there is a crime, a punishment equivalent is decided and presented to the victims victims to decide.Now is sex a crime?
If it is how can you go on and prove it.
Are we supposed to walk 4x4 on the street just in case we might stumble on some one having sex?
and then we approach them and enquire about their identities, and see whether they are married to each other or not? maybe by checking a wedding certificate?
Would I need then to forge one every time I engage with my extramarital adventures?As you can see this doesn't make sense!
Sex isn't a crime and this is why God "told" us it's better for both of us to keep faithful..
It is not something like a Police has to enforce it!Secondly, in a small village it easy to guess who is doing who..
But in a big city like Sao Paulo, how are you going to check it out?Every now and then 4 people turn up at the door and enquire about who are you with and what are you doing and .. etc..
I mean all this zina talk doesn't make sense realy..
I think we should look with a different eye, as if we never heard this word Zina before..not try to assume it is sex.. and then we try to come up with excuses like what the Hadith lovers like doing, when they want o justify something that has no sense to begin with by inventing idealistic preconditions.. for instance.. they will be punished only if they had enough money to get married!We are in society where children below the age of 15 engage in sex.. are you saying that these children we got to flog them 100 each for discovering something natural.??
The more brains there are the better explanation God will reveal to us.
Peace sex and Love. ;D
So you mean that there is no illicit sex in Islam? that one nights stands and casual sex, pornography etc. are all fine? And that 15 years old kids having sex is okay?
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So you mean that there is no illicit sex in Islam? that one nights stands and casual sex, pornography etc. are all fine? And that 15 years old kids having sex is okay?
Look I think it's better to breath, relax and then read carefully, is there any where where in my post I said what you're deducting?
Sex in it self is not a bad thing, when both part are consensual and private
Rape on the other hand is non consensual and it is a crime.
Paedophilia is crime too, it is regarded as rape because the under aged. in question is unable to comprehend what is going on.What is illicit sex? and where did I say that it is ok to have it.?
I give you a clear example so that you can start and think about it and also try to understand what am trying to point at.
The Quran states that you cannot marry your sister for example.
Now, if some one does just that, what does the Quran say about the punishment.regards
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Look I think it's better to breath, relax and then read carefully, is there any where where in my post I said what you're deducting?
Sex in it self is not a bad thing, when both part are consensual and private
Rape on the other hand is non consensual and it is a crime.
Paedophilia is crime too, it is regarded as rape because the under aged. in question is unable to comprehend what is going on.What is illicit sex? and where did I say that it is ok to have it.?
I give you a clear example so that you can start and think about it and also try to understand what am trying to point at.
The Quran states that you cannot marry your sister for example.
Now, if some one does just that, what does the Quran say about the punishment.regards
So when quran mentions illicit sex than quran means rape according to you ?
So you mean that all consenting sex is fine, does it include adultery, fornication and one night stands ? -
foralgerian
The Quran states that you cannot marry your sister for example.
You are contradicting yourself. First you said that unmarried people can have sex with each other and now you say that you cannot have sex with your sister because the quran says that you cannot MARRY her But marriage is not a requirement of sex according to you, so how does quran ban sex between siblings when it only bans MARRIAGE between siblings? So by your own logic, you can have sex with your sister if she consents to it - you can just not marry her. tempt
Sex-liberators in-the-name-of-God like you, somehow, always contradict themselves.
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The Koran can only order the prophet to inflict any form of punishment if someone commits something AGAINST another. Like murdering, slandering, stealing etc. Thats it the only time the Koran allows people to interfere.
So Zina has to be adultery for both husband and wife. The Koran also says that people should not commit zina except with their spouses or MMA. MMA to me is a concubine. Concubine is the same as a wife but without the dowry and usual rituals.
Basically its talking about cheating and betraying someone else. Its a VERY serious matter and can be a huge fitna in people's life. Many people were killed, homes destroyed, families seperated and trust destroyed because of it.
Its not a joke. Most of all it causes pain. Hence the emphasis in the Koran on lashing and pain. An eye for an eye. However that punishment is symbolic in many cases as the verses are really there to deal with slandering. They have to produce four witnesses. Thats a tough thing to do. Meanwhile the acused can always lie under oath. Since most people would lie anyways when facing pain. Its human nature to lie to stop pain. Lashing is intense pain.
Slandering in many societies leads to murder(honor killings) and can make people falsely accuse others. You never really will know how a person will react when faced with betrayal of this sort.
I have been watching some videos about people getting caught cheating. Its not pretty.
http//www.metacafe.com/watch/442607/guy_films_himself_cheating_and_gets_caught/
http//www.break.com/index/wife-caught-cheating.html#
There is even worse, where a guy tries to stab and kill someone. But the villagers stopped him but beat up the cheating guy bad. He probably knew she was someone's wife.
By wipping him with a stick. yes
Thats Koranic justice for you.
I will try to post that one if I can get that link again. Thats when I realized its not a joke, especially in Eastern societies.
Some more Koranic justice yes
http//mytings.net/video/cheating-husband-beaten-up-by
