The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
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No it doesn't dismantle the theory at all. You are under the illusion that during the year 1971 that people were 100% correct in calculating the winter solstice period. However if you were to ask any astronomer they will tell you that all calendar calculations are APPROXIMATIONS . Not in million years could any calendar calculation could have been 100% accurate. No one can prove otherwise.
?The Seasons Calculator calculates the approximate time and date of the March equinox, the June solstice, the September equinox and the December solstice?..?
Peace Kevin,
I am actually really surprised that this is your faith in science (and math to a degree). Yes, in science there is always a margin of error left as nothing can be 100% accurate. Hence why you see many products claiming to only be 99.99% effective and so on. So granted even with cosmic calculations there will be some room of error, how big do you believe the margin of error is here? A 24-hour margin of error? 12-hour? 1 hour? A few minutes? A few seconds?
Do you honestly believe that they were not able to accurately calculate the Winter Solstice down to within the day? Especially for only 40 years ago? Do you have any idea how many cultures, nations and civilizations rely on the Winter Solstice and have agreed unanimously upon the day, and have been sure of it for decades without any dispute? That website I provided has it down to the minute! Do you believe they would even have the guts to name a day if there was THAT much room for error? They would have just said, "Towards the end of December" or "Approximately December 20-25" if there was that much uncertainty.
Let's be real here. If you told any astronomer they were mistaken to the point of being an entire day off, especially because of this flimsy theory based on an alleged messenger's claim, they would probably find it very amusing - with all due respect. Every nation has agreed on this date, including the Hong Kong Observatory (http//www.hko.gov.hk/gts/time/calendar/text/T1971e.txt) in which their people celebrate the Winter Solstice every year and need to know these exact dates.
In regards to this other issue on ?Dr.Khalifa may have chosen this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory? ?is very eccentric and irrational thinking. It also shows that you barely read anything about the ?submitters group? Dr.Rashad Khalifa believed in the traditional month of Ramadan that 90% of the ?muslims? believe in today. The Winter Solstice theory is a new interpretation that started AFTER his death and not before. Also it was not developed by ?submitters?( who I believe have somewhat strayed from the Way) but another group. If you want to know more ask Layth. His group I believe is responsible for the Winter Solstice theory and NOT THE SUBMITTERS.
I disagree that it is eccentric and irrational. I actually find it quite rational to sometimes test your own beliefs, or the beliefs of others, by thinking of the opposing possibilities especially when it's something as important as verifying a messenger of God. Perhaps you are right, and Rashad didn't know about this date. I wasn't saying it was surely his agenda to forge this date. But I'm saying just because the dates align, be skeptical that there could be a hidden reason behind it all. He could have had the notion in mind and planned it so, or people after could have forged the date (it wouldn't be the only time something suspicious was altered in one of his books, feel free to request this source from me separately as this discussion isn't really around his work), or it could just be a coincidence. Like I said before, if it's as easy as saying the longest night should be the Night of Decree, it's not hard for people to have thought of the idea before. Either way, this is besides the entire discussion. The point is, the dates don't align, and the "immaculate conception" isn't supported by the Quran, thus the Winter Solstice theory isn't logical.
May peace be with you.
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God's servants never die
3169 Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions.
2154 Do not say of those who are killed in the sake of God that they are dead; no, they are alive but you do not perceive.
Peace Kevin,
These verses specifically refer to those who are killed in the sake of God. ie. Martyrs. But even so, do you believe the "alive" means they were "killed", but were instantly zoomed up to heaven where they are awake and hanging out with angels and God? This would defeat the whole purpose of Judgement Day, where Allah makes it clear that we are going to be risen from our rest. Would one not have to be unconscious/immobile first in order for this to happen? The verses are as if to say that those who were killed in the sake of God will be granted life for their honourable duties. Their life will continue, meaning they are "alive" still.
This idea is actually supported by the verse you gave below. By your ideology, if these martyrs are still technically awake enough to interact with others (before Judgement Day), it would contradict this following verse which shows life will be granted.
824 O you who acknowledge, answer the call of God and His messenger when he calls you to what will grant you life. Know that God comes between a person and his heart, and that to Him you will be gathered.
4456 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.
Only on the Day of Judgement can we resurrect, then be judged on whether we are given life or death.
Do not carelessly jump to conclusion's before carefully studying the Quran.
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the Truth. Do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is
completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."Agreed. One should carefully study before jumping to conclusions.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge.
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Peace,
Either way, the whole Rashad Khalifa issue is very secondary to the Winter Solstice theory. Although I proved he was not granted messengership on the Winter Solstice of 1971, if one wants to continue believing he was, it still does not support the already flimsy theory any more.
The connection is the Spirit/Angels. They were there at the announcement of Mary bearing the Messiah, which could have been at any time. There is NO proof that they were present at the time of Jesus' conception. The Quran does not support the "immaculate conception" (http//www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm). Therefore there is no evident link between the Night of Decree and Jesus' conception.
AND EVEN SO, if one wants to continue to believe in the "immaculate conception", that would only be one example of the Spirit/Angels coming around this approximate time, which is not solid evidence at all for something as important as the Night of Decree.
It's one big slippery slope relying on falsehood. I have no agenda or outside source making me this adamant regarding my stance on this issue, other than the fact that it is not supported by the Quran.
May peace be with you all.
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Salam,
The connection is the Spirit/Angels. They were there at the announcement of Mary bearing the Messiah, which could have been at any time. There is NO proof that they were present at the time of Jesus' conception. The Quran does not support the "immaculate conception" (http//www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm). Therefore there is no evident link between the Night of Decree and Jesus' conception.
AND EVEN SO, if one wants to continue to believe in the "immaculate conception", that would only be one example of the Spirit/Angels coming around this approximate time, which is not solid evidence at all for something as important as the Night of Decree.
It's one big slippery slope relying on falsehood. I have no agenda or outside source making me this adamant regarding my stance on this issue, other than the fact that it is not supported by the Quran.
I am sorry to say that, from your posts, you are approaching this subject with a pre-determined conclusion that is blocking what is actually and very clear and simple argument (words such as "flimsy, falsehood, etc." are counterproductive).
That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" was present for the conception of Jesus is a "fact" (1917).
That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" is sent down on the special "night of decree" is a "fact" (974).
That Jesus was concived around the time of Aug/Sep when dates are ripe is a "fact" (1925).
That God is Merciful and that He encourages us to use the night more than the day for worship is a "fact" (11, 976)
Now, if you want to deny these simple facts and pretend the subject is "not clear" and that if it were so clear then others before would have worked it out, then that is your perogative...
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Salam Kevin,
Your observation on RK and his "encounter" is very interesting and food for thought.
However, I would not put too much effort in defending the accuracy of his appendix as you will note he speaks of december 21 1971, yet he quotes an Arabic date (3rd zulhijja 1391) which corresponds to January 20 1972.
If he is refering to December 21 1971, then that would make the Arabic date 3rd zulqaida 1391.
Either way, there is an error in the dates.
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Salam,
I am sorry to say that, from your posts, you are approaching this subject with a pre-determined conclusion that is blocking what is actually and very clear and simple argument (words such as "flimsy, falsehood, etc." are counterproductive).
Peace Layth,
With all due respect, I find this statement of yours quite unfair. Brother Kevin and I are having a discussion in which our opinions differ, so of course we will have a somewhat "pre-determined conclusion" which will be our respective opinions (which we believe in strongly). This doesn't mean it is blocking anything, as I am open-minded and will conform my beliefs to what I am convinced of as I have many times in the past. You share his view for the most part, therefore it is obvious you would see it as clear and simple and see only my words as "counterproductive". So I prefer not to be seen as just some ignorant speaker, as I do not feel my points are senseless.
That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" is sent down on the special "night of decree" is a "fact" (974).
That Jesus was concived around the time of Aug/Sep when dates are ripe is a "fact" (1925).
That God is Merciful and that He encourages us to use the night more than the day for worship is a "fact" (11, 976)
I agree with all of these. Although I believe in your second point you meant "birthed" instead of conceived. Correct?
And while the last point is true, this does not explain the significance of a long night for the Night of Decree. The only opinion that the length is significant that would make some sense is if you believe we should stay up all night to receive this special peace/guidance, which I don't believe you have answered yet. And which I don't believe there is any reason to outlined in the Quran.
But in general, I agree with these statements.
That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" was present for the conception of Jesus is a "fact" (1917).
I disagree with this being a fact. Was the Spirit there for the CONCEPTION? Or just for the ANNOUNCEMENT that Mary would bear the Messiah? There is no indication that when the Spirit made this announcement, Jesus was conceived right then and there. This is contradictory to what the Quran teaches regarding the natural processes of procreation (in which Jesus was not exempt), and to the way in which Allah works in this universe. After the Spirit announced the message, time could have passed, Mary could have got married, had intercourse with Joseph, conceived Jesus at a later time, then gave birth to him at the season of ripe dates.
I believe many are misled as the birth is mentioned shortly after in the same verse, though this does not mean time hasn't passed. As you know, this quick-series-of-lengthy-events type of explanation is in many places in the Quran. This doesn't mean time is being defied or that other processes didn't occur between them.
I know I am repeatedly posting this link (http//www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm), but I feel as if it's not being read or something. All of the assumptions that Jesus was conceived right then and there at the Spirit's announcement are logically disproved using examples and cross-references from the Quran. I don't see the point being made any more clear.
May peace be with you.
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Salam Kevin,
Your observation on RK and his "encounter" is very interesting and food for thought.
However, I would not put too much effort in defending the accuracy of his appendix as you will note he speaks of december 21 1971, yet he quotes an Arabic date (3rd zulhijja 1391) which corresponds to January 20 1972.
If he is refering to December 21 1971, then that would make the Arabic date 3rd zulqaida 1391.
Either way, there is an error in the dates.
Peace Layth,
It appears that you are correct. 3rd zulhijja 1391 is on January 20th 1972. I believe he made a mistake on the Islamic date and not the Christian date. If you look at the Appendix he said that his messenger-ship occurred on a Tuesday. January 20th 1972 is on a Thursday and not a Tuesday (whilst December 21st 1971 is on a Tuesday)
To verify http//www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html
He most likely made an innocent mistake since he probably doesn?t use an Islamic calendar often. Most Muslims I know use a Christian calendar 95% of the time. The only occasion they use an Islamic calendar is when they need to know the timing of there Islamic practices (eg Ramadan ) Anyway just to be extra safe I?ll send an email to the 'submitters' just to make sure.
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Peace,
To my utter surprise it turns out that Dr.Rashad Khalifa did indeed receive messengership on December 21st 1971?..The longest night during the year(in the northern hemisphere)
Could this be a coincidence?
Of course no coincidence that you were aroused. You believe his claim to resemble deceased prophet, and other absurdities, and you conjectured then did the look up; if not successful you would have simply skipped it similar to how those obsessed with numerology ignore all failures like drug addicts in denial look for the next fix/buzz.
Example, they read hadith revelation started in 610 CE
? 23 years (not multiple, ignore)
? 610 / 19 = 32.1052632 (not multiple, ignore)
? 1974 / 19 = 103.894737 (not multiple, ignore)
? (1974 - 610 = 1364) / 19 = 71.78947371974 (not multiple, ignore)Convert to lunar years ((1974 - 610 = 1364) x 12 months = 365.242199 days) / (12 lunar months = 354.36708 days) = 1405.85959 then round to 1406 and bingo! 1406 / 19 = 74
Your observation on RK and his "encounter" is very interesting and food for thought.
Why -- did he fast during winter solstice for 10 days or was he clueless following hadith/tradition?
Winter solstice only ascent contradicts Qur'an. They do not sleep the other 365 days and 364 nights; it is a continuous/instantaneous ascent like our thoughts which instantaneously reach across the universe.
701 asked a questioner about a punishment and real
702 to the disbelievers is not to it any preventer
703 from Allah owner the ways of ascent
704 ascent the angels and The Spirit to Him in day/time is its measure fifty thousand timeframe
705 so be patient a patience beautiful
706 indeed they see it far
707 and We see it soon -
Dear S29,
Winter solstice only ascent contradicts Qur'an. They do not sleep the other 365 days and 364 nights; it is a continuous/instantaneous ascent like our thoughts which instantaneously reach across the universe.
There are no contradictions in the Quran my friend. God tells us that one night in the year is "special" - and that the angels and spirit are sent down with decrees on that night
971 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
972 And do you know what is the Night of Decree?
973 The Night of Decree is better than one thousand months.
974 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of
their Lord to carry out every matter.
975 It is peaceful until the coming of dawn.The verses you have quoted speak of the angels and the spirit "ascending" towards God on J-Day that has been made equivalent to 50,000 years.
The 2 subjects are not the same.
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Peace Dear Layth,
Dear S29,
There are no contradictions in the Quran my friend. God tells us that one night in the year is "special" - and that the angels and spirit are sent down with decrees on that night
971 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
972 And do you know what is the Night of Decree?
973 The Night of Decree is better than one thousand months.
974 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of
their Lord to carry out every matter.
975 It is peaceful until the coming of dawn.The verses you have quoted speak of the angels and the spirit "ascending" towards God on J-Day that has been made equivalent to 50,000 years.
The 2 subjects are not the same.
No, what you wrote about winter solstice contradicts Qur'an. Chapter 97 is about a night that Qur'an was revealed; it being the only night they descend conjecture. If they "descend" during revelation and "ascent" 50,000 years in the future then if approximate year of revelation is 610 CE, Judgment Day is year 50,610 CE or 50,610 - 2011 = 48,599 years from now.
Why interpret 50k sunnah as years or 50k rotations of the earth around the sun?
The sunnah/timeframe person based on cosmic events e.g. 1,000 earth rotations on axis is 1,000 days.
2247 and they ask you to hasten in the punishment and never fails Allah His Promise and indeed a day with your Lord thousand timeframe from what you reckon
The sunnah/timeframe/way Allah is 1,000 our sunnah/timeframe/way i.e. Day is 1,000 people days.
701 asked a questioner about a punishment and real
702 to the disbelievers is not to it any preventer
703 from Allah owner the ways of ascent
704 ascent the angels and The Spirit to Him in day is its measure fifty thousand timeframe
705 so be patient a patience beautiful
706 indeed they see it far
707 and We see it soon(50,000 x (1,000 days)) / (12 month) = 136,895.463 solar years creation of man to punishment.
Humanity/thinking man who spoke (Adam) has not been on earth greater than the above time.The above last part I am still not sure about since there was no reference given to human time.
Peace
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I think a good many of you are unaware that life exists south of the equator... where as the northern hemisphere's winter solstice being the shortest day of the year is also the southern hemisphere's summer solstice being the longest day of the year therefor the logic is reversed on most points made about that. So point being that whether you are a proponent of the winter solstice being the night of decree or Ramadan or whether the summer time being the time of Ramadan then the reverse is true based on your logic which makes it illogical.
