WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace be upon you Danish,
If I was in a jungle wherein all animals resided and commanded the lions to submit to a frog, which they all did, and here comes a ladybug disobeying my command, thus banishing the ladybug out of the jungle, simply means that The lions were commanded to submit to the frog. All of them did except the ladybug, she was of an insect, doesn't make the ladybug a lion. This is how I understand and reason with the complexity of all the veses put together pertaining to who Iblis was, given the FACT that he was a jinn.
But how did the ladybug disobey your command? You were commanding the Lions, not the ladybug? That would have been very unfair and unjust of you.
Imagine you are at work, and your boss comes to your desk and says "YOU'RE FIRED!!!!" You get a schocked look on your face "But WHY?"
Your Boss says, "Because you did not empty the trash when everyone left the building". You respond, "but that is not my job, you told the cleaning crew to do that". Your Boss replies, "but you rwere present when I commanded them to empty the trash, so you should have known I was commanding you too".How foolish does that sound?
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Peace be upon you Tay,
I think what is being implied here is the true nature of angels, or atleast one facet of this truth. They are dimensions of the human psyche, ie, emotions. So a person who truly believes "Our Lord is Allah" and remains steadfastly upright will not grieve. He will find peace. He will know through experience that he is on the path of righteousness. He "hears" the good news of Paradise through the flurry of great emotions one feels when he is in harmony with the universe.
Exactly.
My point all this splitting of hairs over whether or not Iblis was/is an angel is completely irrelevant to our development. The origin of the energy does not matter. The effect is what matters.
I disagree that it is irrelevant, because we have to combat falsehood. The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters. You would be suprised at how many people actually sit back and observe the THOUGHT process and how emotions are used as ENERGY (Energy in motion/ E-motion) to bring thoughts into reality.
These symbolic stories are suppossed to teach us that, but others are not understanding the basics of this story, so it is the job of those who now not to conceal the truth. But I do feel that enough evidence has been listed on this thread, so I think we should be nearing the end of this debate.
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The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters.
JINNS
Yet, they set up besides GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.
We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "Hell is your destiny." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient.
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.
He will say, "Enter with the previous communities of jinns and humans into Hell." Every time a group enters, they will curse their ancestral group. Once they are all in it, the latest one will say of the previous one, "Our Lord, these are the ones who misled us. Give them double the retribution of Hell." He will say, "Each receives double, but you do not know."
We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Only those blessed with mercy from your Lord (will not dispute the truth). This is why He created them. The judgment of your Lord has already been issued "I will fill Hell with jinns and humans, all together."
As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire.
Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute!
Mobilized in the service of Solomon were his obedient soldiers of jinns and humans, as well as the birds; all at his disposal.
One afrit from the jinns said, "I can bring it to you before you stand up. I am powerful enough to do this."
Had we willed, we could have given every soul its guidance, but it is already predetermined that I will fill Hell with jinns and humans, all together.
To Solomon we committed the wind at his disposal, traveling one month coming and one month going. And we caused a spring of oil to gush out for him. Also, the jinns worked for him, by his Lord's leave. Any one of them who disregarded our commands, we subjected him to a severe retribution.
Clearly, the jinns have the power to disobey but the angels cannot. Since Iblis was a jinn, he disobeyed GOD and turned arrogant by not submitting to GOD?s new creation (human).When the appointed time for his death came, they had no clue that he had died. It was not until one of the animals tried to eat his staff, and he fell down, that the jinns realized that he was dead. They thus realized that if they really knew the unseen, they would have stopped working so hard as soon as he died.
They will answer, "Be You glorified. You are our Lord and Master, not them. Instead, they were worshiping the jinns; most of them were believers therein."
They even invented a special relationship between Him and the jinns. The jinns themselves know that they are subservient.
We assign to them companions who adorn everything they do in their eyes. Thus, they end up incurring the same fate as the previous communities of jinns and humans, who were also losers.
Those who disbelieved will say, "Our Lord, show us those among the two kinds - jinns and humans - who misled us, so we can trample them under our feet, and render them the lowliest."
Such are the ones stamped as disbelievers among every generation of jinns and humans; they are losers.
Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran. When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me alone.
(O humans and jinns,) which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?
And created the jinns from blazing fire.
We will call you to account, O humans and jinns.
O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.
On that day, no human, nor a jinn, will be asked about his sins.
For those who reverence the majesty of their Lord, two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).
Their beautiful mates were never touched by any human or jinn.
Below them are two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn.
Say, "I was inspired that a group of jinns listened, then said, `We have heard a wonderful Quran.
" `We thought that neither the humans, nor the jinns, could possibly utter lies about GOD.
" `Human beings used to seek power through jinn beings, but they only afflicted them with a lot of adversity.
"Be they of the jinns, or the people."
After reading studying and understanding thoroughly all the above verses in conjuntion with others, it is absolutely clear as daylight that Jinns are nothing else but creatures/beings. It is a mockery of GOD's Book (Al-Quran) to think otherwise.
On the same lines, Muhammad is a name/title given to a person just like Musa and Esa are (titles), Quran is a name given to GOD's Book just like Torah and Injeel are (titles), Islam is a name (a title) given to GOD'S System, Muslim is a name (a title) given to humans who believe in Islam and so on, all based on contextual clear undersstanding. It is plain stupidity to address someone by their name's (title's) meanings.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE EMOTIONS ARE NOT CREATURES, JINNS ARE.
Insha-Allah, I will get back on some of the previous issues (replies), such as that on 'ladybug' and 'Iblis being or not being an angel'.
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Peace Marie,
I think the word ?jinn? in the context of 1850 is misunderstood
I find the translation of Ahmad Shabir more adequate
1850 Recall when We told the angels, ?Bow yourselves before Adam!? They all bowed except Iblis. He was of the hidden selfish desires (jinn) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-3If you find Ahmad Shabir's translation more adequate, then better believe the above in bold underlined. Iblis never became, but was, a jinn, as per the above.
In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
You found that Ahmed Shabir was more adequate??? What happened above? Why change from "he was" to "he became".
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.Not to me and neither to you since you are not sure of yourself in the first place (see below).
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena
"kanamina" translates into "became one of".
- Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.?
Qul sadaqa Allahu faittabiAAoomillata ibraheema haneefan wama kanamina almushrikeena
In the above verse, "kanamina" translates into "he was not of".
- And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
Waotlu AAalayhim nabaa allatheeataynahu ayatina fainsalakhaminha faatbaAAahu alshshaytanu fakanamina alghaweena
Here, "kanamina" translates into "he became of".
- ?And forgive my father, for he was of those misguided.?
Waighfir li-abee innahu kanamina alddalleena
"kanamina" is translated as "he was" in the above verse.
- Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanatfarjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohinawasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanatmina alqaniteena
"kanatmina" is translated as "she was of".
Hope that helps.
Sorry to say, not a bit, very confusing. Why the discrepancies? Can you make up your mind or are you trying to prove your point without a point? (No offense intended, just a question).
Thanks and GOD bless.
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
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Peace Danish,
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Independently if "kanamina" in 1850 means "he became of" or "he was of", the two meanings are possible.
In the light of the context of 1850, I prefer "he became" than "he was" because I consider "Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord" is a consequence of "kanamina aljinn / he became of the jinn".In the following verses, "except for Satan" does not mark the end of the sentence, the blue sentences are supplementary and explain themself mutually.
so they submitted except for Satan; he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters. (234)
so they submitted except for Satan; he was not of those who submitted.(711)
Thus, all of the Angels submitted,(1530) except for Satan; he refused to be with those who submitted. (1531)
So they submitted except for Satan; he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?(1761)
So they all submitted except for Satan; he was of the "jinn", so he disobeyed the order of his Lord(1850)
They all submitted except for Satan; he refused.(20116)
The Angels submitted, all of them, (3873)except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.(3874)
Allah knows best
Marie
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PEACE MARIE
In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena
Even if you translate the ayat as..."he became one of the rejectors", hence, a "fallen maliaka", your arguement still fails for the following reason
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the Jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran...
7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways
7214 And that some of us are those who submit, and some of us are the deviators; so whoever submits, these aim at the right way
The above ayats, conclusively, establish that the Jinn humans were divided into two camps/sects, those who submitted to Allah/believed and those that didn't. Iblis, to whom we may extend the benefit of the doubt, prior to the advent of Adam, may have been of those who submited/believed. However, when Allah decided to establish Adam as leadership in the earth, well, Iblis, rebelled and thus became of the camp/sect , of rejectors/disbelievers/those who refuse to submit.
It appears that, where Allah uses..."he became", in regard to Iblis, it is in reference to his attitude i.e. "he became of the rejectors/disbelievers/kafiroona, and not his composition as a creation. This is why 1850 cannot be translated into..."he became a Jinn".
Clearly then, Iblis was not a malaika who "became/transformed" into a Jinn human being.
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
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Peace PB,
In the light of 1850, jinn is not a race but an attitude/behavior of Iblis/satan and the cause of his disobedience
illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord)
He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord...
This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
Allah knows best
Marie
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PEACE MARIE
illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord) He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord... This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
I see what you mean, however, you are not taking into account Sura Al-Jinn, where it is quite clear that the Jinn, represent some kind of creation which can choose to submit/believe or not submit/disbelieve. To say that Jinn, represents "hidden selfish desire", contradicts ayats 7211 and 14, in that, if a Jinn submits and believes, how then, can he be considered selfish?
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Also, Allah says of the Jinn
1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you do not accept the Jinn, as being some kind of distinct being apart from the malaika. So, my question to you then is, are the Jinn, fallen malaika? I ask this, because Iblis became one the disbelievers, hence, the terms "those" and "disbelievers" are plural terms. Given that, the Jinn precede man, then who are the "those" whom Iblis is like?
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Peace Marie,
If, according to you, Kyle and others, Iblis was an angel and became emotional (jinn), then he must still be an angel and remain that way on earth until the D-Day. But according to the Quran, angels uphold absolute authority, obey at all times and do whatever they are told. In other words, they are especially designed and created by GOD to do just that. This also implies that the angels cannot disobey any command of GOD nor do they possess any emotional/behavioral indifferences (good or bad) in them or amongst them. How the hell did an angel like Iblis (it?s a disgrace to even call him an angel) got out of hand? Did GOD make a mistake in creating angels, specifically Iblis? Or are there many such devilish angels with emotions (jinns) that exists on earth? I?m sure there are abundance of devilish emotional creatures (human and jinn kinds) inhabitant on earth but none of them are angels, as per my understanding of the Quran. If that?s the case, then its not possible to trust, believe in and obey them, as commanded to us by GOD. It would be horrendous to even call an angel, a devil or satan. Only jinnkind like Iblis or humankind, can have the nerves to disobey and turn arrogant towards GOD?s commands and as well as others, thus becoming disbelievers journeying to Hell and therefore termed as devils and satans.
Emotion
- A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love.
- A state of mental agitation or disturbance spoke unsteadily in a voice that betrayed his emotion. See Synonyms at feeling.
- The part of the consciousness that involves feeling; sensibility ?The very essence of literature is the war between emotion and intellect? (Isaac Bashevis Singer).
Jinn
- In Muslim legend, a spirit often capable of assuming human or animal form and exercising supernatural influence over people
- nee \Jin"nee, n.; pl. Jinn. (Arabian & Mohammedan Myth.) A genius or demon; one of the fabled genii, good and evil spirits, supposed to be the children of fire, and to have the power of assuming various forms.
Some of the key features are outlined below and I'm sure there may be many more
- Emotions/behaviour do not have minds, eyes and ears; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour are not thrown in Hell; human and jinns (creatures) are.
- Emotions/behaviour do not receive messengers and revelations; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour do not share each others company; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour do not have communities/sects/groups; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour are the result of human and jinn kind (creatures) themselves, whereas humans and jinns are created by GOD. Emotions/behaviour are the consequences of ?feelings?; humans and jinns are the consequences of creation - ?clay/mud? and ?blazing fire? .
- Emotions/behaviour do not have soldiers/armies; humans and jinns (creatures) do. Solomon had humans, jinns and birds as soldiers at his disposal, by GOD?s leave.
- Emotions/behaviour, whether good or bad, are within both humans and jinns (creatures).
- Jinns have no clue of life and death, nor the unseen.
- Emotions/behaviour do not have generations or are termed as disbelievers and losers, but jinns and humans as creatures have/are.
- Jinns and humans are consistently mentioned and categorized as two distinct kinds/creatures throughout the Quran.
In accordance with all the verses supplied earlier and some of the distinguishing points made above and as well as by Priest BM, pertaining to jinns, it is evidently obvious and crystal clear that jinns are creatures/beings/spirits and not emotions or behaviour. There are good and bad humans and there are good and bad jinns, both of which have emotional/behavioral patterns within themselves. The Quran also distinguishes both the kinds (humans and jinns) throughout and yet some cannot/refuse to understand such clear distinct verses.
Perhaps Marie, Kyle or anyone else who assumes that jinn means emotion or behaviour can collectively put together all the verses pertaining to jinns, with explanation.
Is there any dictionary that mentions jinns to mean emotions or behaviour? That would be interesting. Btw, are emotion and behaviour in Arabic correct as follows? Thanks.
emotion , ,
behaviour , ,GOD bless.
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Peace PB,
PEACE MARIE
illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord) He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord... This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
I see what you mean, however, you are not taking into account Sura Al-Jinn, where it is quite clear that the Jinn, represent some kind of creation which can choose to submit/believe or not submit/disbelieve. To say that Jinn, represents "hidden selfish desire", contradicts ayats 7211 and 14, in that, if a Jinn submits and believes, how then, can he be considered selfish?
No because you attribute the same meaning to this word in different contexts.
Let us suppose that this word means a creature, the "FA" in "FAfasaqa/so he disobey(fasaqa)" gives the cause and effect.
We know, there are those who submit, and some are the deviator among Jinn (7214)
In 1850, we read Iblis became/was of....(cause)----->FAfasaqa/he disobey)(effect)
The word jinn in 1850 couldn't means a creature because all the Jinn are not disobeying their lord (7214).
I don't think you attribute the same meanings to the word salat everywhere in the quran.
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Also, Allah says of the Jinn
1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you do not accept the Jinn, as being some kind of distinct being apart from the malaika.
Jinn and Ins/human are two creatures.
All of the Angels submitted, except Iblis 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874
For me there is no doubt Iblis is one of the Angels who disobeyed his lord .
No where in the quran do we find that Iblis alone is asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam or Iblis and Angels were asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam.
The following verse coul give an additional information
- But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their wickedness to them which was kept from them; and he said ?Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal.?
So, my question to you then is, are the Jinn, fallen malaika?
This is a good question, I don't know about Jinn but I think Iblis is a fallen/rebel angel.
I ask this, because Iblis became one the disbelievers, hence, the terms "those" and "disbelievers" are plural terms. Given that, the Jinn precede man, then who are the "those" whom Iblis is like?
This is a good question, Allah doesn't specify. Disbelievers or rejectors are a generic term.
Let us read the following verse
723.They said (Adam and his mate) ?Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, then we will be of the losers!?
The losers is a plural term. Idem "the losers" is a generic term.
Salam
Marie
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- We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils (shayateena), to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
The word shaytan/satan is not specific to human or jinn.
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PEACE MARIE
MARIE illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord) He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord... This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
PREIST I see what you mean, however, you are not taking into account Sura Al-Jinn, where it is quite clear that the Jinn, represent some kind of creation which can choose to submit/believe or not submit/disbelieve. To say that Jinn, represents "hidden selfish desire", contradicts ayats 7211 and 14, in that, if a Jinn submits and believes, how then, can he be considered selfish?
No because you attribute the same meaning to this word in different contexts.
Let us suppose that this word means a creature, the "FA" in "FAfasaqa/so he disobey(fasaqa)" gives the cause and effect.
We know, there are those who submit, and some are the deviator among Jinn (7214)
In 1850, we read Iblis became/was of....(cause)----->FAfasaqa/he disobey)(effect)
The word jinn in 1850 couldn't means a creature because all the Jinn are not disobeying their lord (7214).
I don't think you attribute the same meanings to the word salat everywhere in the quran.
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I think what you are failing to take into account Marie is that, "he disobeyed/became one of the kafiroona" was only possible, precisely, because Iblis was of the Jinn race.
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Jinn, cannot mean hidden selfish "thoughts"/not a being and also mean a being, that is a contradiction and contradicts 37, where Allah says
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He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are consistent with/similar to...
37 Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun...
Do you see my point here?
MARIE If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
PREIST Also, Allah says of the Jinn 1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you do not accept the Jinn, as being some kind of distinct being apart from the malaika.
Jinn and Ins/human are two creatures.
All of the Angels submitted, except Iblis 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874. For me there is no doubt Iblis is one of the Angels who disobeyed his lord.
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Yes, the Jinn, the men, the dabbatin and the malaika, are all different beings, there simply is no question about this, do you agree? You can't have it both ways Marie, meaning, you cannot define Jinn as "hidden selfish thoughts" and also define them as distinct creatures.
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If Iblis, was one of the malaika, then, the malika, must be Jinns as well, given the fact that, the Jinn can both obey and disobey, hence, some other malaika must be the ones who Allah is referring to as "those" and "disbelievers" whom Iblis became one of. Is this your position? Hence, my question
No where in the quran do we find that Iblis alone is asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam or Iblis and Angels were asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam. 720. But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their wickedness to them which was kept from them; and he said ?Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal.?
I think you will agree that, in the light of other ayats, these ayats do not conclusively establish your assertion.
MARIE For me there is no doubt Iblis is one of the Angels who disobeyed his lord.
PREIST So, my question to you then is, are the Jinn, fallen malaika?
MARIE This is a good question, I don't know about Jinn but I think Iblis is a fallen/rebel angel.
You see, Marie, you cannot in one breath claim that you have "no doubt" and then in the next state that, "you don't know" and "you think", especially, when it concerns the principle aspects of your arguement. Your arguement cannot go forward until you are dead certain about the definitions of terms, Jinn, malaika, dabbatin, and men.
PREIST I ask this, because Iblis became one the disbelievers, hence, the terms "those" and "disbelievers" are plural terms. Given that, the Jinn precede man, then who are the "those" whom Iblis is like?
MARIE This is a good question, Allah doesn't specify. Disbelievers or rejectors are a generic term.
Let us read the following verse
723.They said (Adam and his mate) ?Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, then we will be of the losers!?
The losers is a plural term. Idem "the losers" is a generic term.
You may have a point here, however, if the ayat is translated accurately, you will notice that it reads...of the losers. Now, if that simply pertained to Adam and Eve, then wouldn't it have read..."we will be losers"? Once again, as with Iblis, Adam and Eve, the "of the" appears to be referring to "others" already in existence, if nothing else, then Iblis himself, who, at the moment of Adam and Eve made that duaa, was already a kafir/loser.
Now, you might respond by asking, "well, if it is referring to Iblis, then, Iblis was only one entitiy and not many, hence, the ayat would have to have read "loser" and not "losers" as it does". Now, given that the plural, losers, is used, it must be referring to more than one entity, thus, as with Iblis, who are the other beings which disbelieved and were losers who Adam and Eve did not want to be like? The implication of all of this is that, more than one of the malaika must have rebelled or the Jinns are not malaika and others of them did rebel along with Iblis , given the fact that, the Jinn, according to 7214, can both obey/believe or disobey/disbelieve. This is why Allah says...before the creation of men, He created the Jinn, hence, some of them were/are "losers".
I hope this presentation wasn't too convoluted. shock o
Looking fprward to your reply. D
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Peace Kyle,
If I was in a jungle wherein all animals resided and commanded the lions to submit to a frog, which they all did, and here comes a ladybug disobeying my command, thus banishing the ladybug out of the jungle, simply means that The lions were commanded to submit to the frog. All of them did except the ladybug, she was of an insect, doesn't make the ladybug a lion. This is how I understand and reason with the complexity of all the veses put together pertaining to who Iblis was, given the FACT that he was a jinn.
But how did the ladybug disobey your command? You were commanding the Lions, not the ladybug? That would have been very unfair and unjust of you.
Not at all unfair and unjust. It is simply a matter of undersanding. A jungle has all kinds of animals, not just lions. My command was generalized to all animals, although pointed to lions. Every creature/animal in the jungle heard my command, thus all animals submitted including the lions, except the ladybug, she was of an insect.
Assuming the elephant was a new creation to have been introduced in a jungle with the rest of the animals, its obvious all creatures of the jungle must welcome the elephant and submit, essentially when they heard the "Supreme's" call. In the heavens, angels were not the only creatures present to have obeyed/disobeyed GOD's commands, but included were jinns and all other spirits to have witnessed a new creation by GOD. We are told that angels DO NOT DISOBEY GOD'S COMMANDS, hence who are left now, obviously jinns and other spirits who are prone to disobey. All angels submitted except Iblis, he was of jinn. One of the reasons why the jinn Iblis revolted and disobeyed, thus was bannished from heavens and thrown down on earth along with Adam and his mate (human spirits/counterpart). Many such jinn-spirits and their counterpart human-spirits followed their suit and that's why we are here. Now to imply that jinn means emotion or behaviour, is plain stupidity.
Imagine you are at work, and your boss comes to your desk and says "YOU'RE FIRED!!!!" You get a schocked look on your face "But WHY?"
Your Boss says, "Because you did not empty the trash when everyone left the building". You respond, "but that is not my job, you told the cleaning crew to do that". Your Boss replies, "but you rwere present when I commanded them to empty the trash, so you should have known I was commanding you too".How foolish does that sound?
Your analogy is totally out-of-line and more so miserably fails. I was talking about a JUNGLE, full of all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, fish, insects, etc., whereas you are talking about a specific human (boss) commanding another specific human (employee). That to me sounds foolish and has no basis whatsoever in comparison to my analogy relevant to the heavenly creatures. Its too easy to have thought otherwise, no wonder the misunderstandings.
Kyle, you need to broaden up a little and try to understand the whole picture.
GOD bless.
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Salaam,
The Qur'an never even suggests Iblis is an angel. For anyone who has Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary,check illa out on page 27. He says that the word means except, but then states that in Arabic it can mean 2 things. Example,all the people came except Zaid. He then says that in Arabic you can say "all the people came but the donkey'. If you look at the very next sentence, there can be no doubt which kind of exception the one in 234 is. It says " he refused and was proud, and was of the disbelievers" The Qur'an makes it very clear Iblis was not an angel. It doesn't say he became a disbeliever, it says he was a disbeliever, and had been, but then he manifested it publically.It's also obvious certain people continue to analyze the Qur'an using English syntax as a barometer,which is leading them to inaccurate interpretations.
Marie, your translation of 1850 is faulty. There is a cause and effect, but you have it in reverse. It says that iblis was of the jinn, so he disobeyed, aka he disobeyed because he was a jinn, not not that he became a jinn because he disobeyed. The fa gives the effect to the next word,while the cause is coming from the words preceding.
I had to post an edit after rereading Marie's post. Marie, I'm not sure what you're saying regarding 1850, so I apologize if I'm incorrect in my assessment. You did say that you think Iblis is a fallen angel though, so that's why I wrote what I did above.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
Not at all unfair and unjust. It is simply a matter of undersanding. A jungle has all kinds of animals, not just lions. My command was generalized to all animals, although pointed to lions.
Ridiculous! If I say "All lions get on the ground", how is that command to ALL ANIMALS. That is nonsense.
Every creature/animal in the jungle heard my command, thus all animals submitted including the lions, except the ladybug, she was of an insect.
If you were in a co ed facility, and you heard soemone say "All men report to the front", do you assume the caller means women too? I mean this converstaion is really getting foolish.
I will post the verses with "jinn" in them to show my understanding of jinn being THOUGHTS (that which is covered), not some species of ghosts.
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Peace be upon you,
The word "jinn" comes from the same root as the word "majnun".
Majnun is used to call someone CRAZY (mental state). They say this person is controlled by "jinn" in tradition.
So why is it hard to understand jinn as THOUGHTS?
Janna (the garden) is also fromthe same root, is not Janna a CONDITION which starts here on earth?
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Peace Kyle,
Not at all unfair and unjust. It is simply a matter of undersanding. A jungle has all kinds of animals, not just lions. My command was generalized to all animals, although pointed to lions. See below for another demonstration underlined, if you can contemplate.
Ridiculous! If I say "All lions get on the ground", how is that command to ALL ANIMALS. That is nonsense.
Ridiculous and nonsense as it may sound, emphasis lies on the word 'JUNGLE' relevant to lions. Scenario already explained.
The first word of the second Surah means "THAT". Must I disagree and argue about it to mean that "THAT" refers to something other than the Quran. Again, its a matter of simple understanding, although not easy when it comes to frivilous debates.
Every creature/animal in the jungle heard my command, thus all animals submitted including the lions, except the ladybug, she was of an insect.
If you were in a co ed facility, and you heard soemone say "All men report to the front", do you assume the caller means women too? I mean this converstaion is really getting foolish.
That depends. Man, simply means a human, a person. And it could also mean a male. Men is plural. If men and animals were together, and the men were ordered to seperate out, then yes, it would definitely include women. That goes for the animals to seperate out as well, even though the animals were not ordered to. Plain and simple, nothing foolish about. It is simply a matter of understanding.
I will post the verses with "jinn" in them to show my understanding of jinn being THOUGHTS (that which is covered), not some species of ghosts.
Looking forward to. "species of ghosts", now that's befuddling roll
Majnun is used to call someone CRAZY (mental state). They say this person is controlled by "jinn" in tradition.
That's traditonal superstition. If a person can control his/her THOUGHTS (JINN), he/she can never be in a "mental state", ie. being CRAZY, now would they?
So why is it hard to understand jinn as THOUGHTS?
Not at all. On the contrary, it is getting difficult for you to understand that jinns are CREATURES. If Iblis was an angel, he didn't become or was of THOUGHTS. Sounds silly. Besides, THOUGHTS don't have minds, eyes and ears, CREATURES DO. "THOUGHTS" are acts or processes of reflection, power of reasoning, meditation, mental engrossment. JINN does not mean THOUGHT or BEHAVIOUR, but refers to their condition of being in that state or process, just like humans. One of the reasons why jinns are never mentioned to be within humans (as thoughts) but seperately, yet side by side. As per the Quran, there are good and bad jinns and there are good and bad humans, both of which have thoughts (good or bad). Clear as crystal.
Here's a jinn ---> twisted
Here's a thought ---> idea -
Edited to include QD info
Jiim-Nun-Nun = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness, become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden, spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, serpent, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk.
An interesting example is 'ajinnah' (noun) in 5332.
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From Lane
Jiim-Nun-Nun = ,
spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses, become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon (CREATURES)
--->
veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness, become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage (THOUGHTS/BEHAVIOUR)Peace and thanks Wakas.
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Peace Kyle,
I disagree that it is irrelevant, because we have to combat falsehood. The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters.
I see your point. My apologies. I did not mean to belittle the dialogue, only redirect it.
These symbolic stories are suppossed to teach us that, but others are not understanding the basics of this story, so it is the job of those who know not to conceal the truth.
Gotcha! Here's my two cents
Iblis disobeyed because Iblis was designed to disobey. Iblis=disobey. I think 2 things must be considered in understanding the nature of the beast.
One no other entity, besides mankind and Iblis, is noted as disobeying.
Two no mention is made about the existence of Iblis prior to mankind's creation.This, to me, intimately ties Iblis to mankind.
Peace,
Tay
