A Possible Oversight of 4:34???
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Salaam,
I think it's funny how the obvious has been escaping everyone's attention for so many years over the "Wife Beating In Islam" issue.
Those males who try to justify wife beating in Islam like to use Quran, 434 to do so. The funny thing is, upon close examination and study of this verse, one would realize that 434 isn't even talking about a husband and wife let alone husband and wife issues or relations.
The reason I strongly feel that this verse is NOT discussing husband and wife relations is because the Arabic word for Husband (male mate/companion) is Zauwj and the Arabic word for wife (female mate/companion) is Zauwja. Neither of these words are mentioned in this verse, yet both of these words are mentioned elsewhere in The Quran when it is clear that it is talking about husband and wife or companions/mates.
Have a look
225, 235, 2102, 2230, 2232, 2234, 2240, 2240, 315, 41, 412, 420, 420, 457, 6139, 6143, 719, 7189, 924, 1140, 133, 1323, 1338, 1588, 1672, 1672, 2053, 20117, 20131, 2190, 225, 236, 2327, 246, 2574, 267, 26166, 3021, 3110, 334, 336, 3328, 3337, 3337, 3350, 3350, 3352, 3353, 3359, 3511, 3636, 3656, 3722, 3858, 396, 396, 408, 4211, 4211, 4312, 4370, 507, 5149, 5345, 5552, 567, 581, 6011, 6011, 6414, 661, 663, 665, 7030, 7539, 788
The Arabic of 434 says Ar-rijaalu qawwaamuuna 'alaa 'Nisaaa'..it does NOT say...Az-Zauwj qawwaamuuna 'alaa Az-Zauwja.
Muslims believe that the Arabic word Nisaa' means Women. If this is the case and 434 is clearly not saying that the HUSBAND (Az-Zauwj) has a degree of strength and dominion over the WIFE (Az-Zauwja), then it would look as though The Quran is saying that the man in general has a degree of strength and dominion over the woman in general, and therefore, a man can exercise an option of beating a woman (any woman) as and when he sees fit. Remember, 434 is not discussing a husband and his wife and it does not specify a particular or specific one to one relationship between a specific man and a specific woman. The Arabic text says THE MAN (Ar-rajaalu) and THE WOMAN (An-Nisaa'. So going by the text, the rules of Arabic grammar and common Muslim thinking, this verse is giving permission for ANY man to chastise ANY woman, rather she has any relation to him or not or if they are total strangers to one another.
Of course, we all know that would be ridiculous. It would be completely ridiculous to think this verse is saying such a thing, and thus, to interpret this verse in such a way.
So what exactly is 434 talking about? Before we can answer that question and take this discussion any further, we must realize something else which has escaped our attention and yet is so painfully obvious. And that is the Arabic word Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women!!!!!!!!
A bold assertion I know, but here is the proof for this.
The singular word for husband in Arabic is Zawj. The plural of this word is azwaaj. Notice how the singular and the plural share the same root.
The singular for Mosque is Masjid and the plural is Masaajid. Again, notice how they share the same root. The singular Muslim has the plural Muslimeen/Muslimoon (depending on type of sentence). The singular Mujahid has Mujaahideen as it's plural and so on and so on.
The plural will ALWAYS share the same root as the singular. These words are placed into different patterns and constructs to bring about the plural of the singular word.
NOW.........according to all of the Arabic dictionaries that I have access to (both Fussha and spoken dialects) the singular word for WOMAN in Arabic is Maraa'. Some dialects use this word, Mraa', and others use Imraa;. HOWEVER these same dictionaries give the word Nisaa' as the plural for Maraa' and this is impossible because these two words come from two entirely different roots.
I have asked this before elsewhere outside of this forum and now I am asking again here at this forum for someone to please do two things for me.
1). Please show me another word in the Arabic Quran which has a plural form that does not share the same root as the singular.
2). Please show me another word in the Arabic Language in general which has a plural that does not share the same root as the singular.
if we were to ponder on this aspect, we would see that there is a huuuuuge problem with how we have been using that word (Nisaa' and how our misunderstanding and misuse of this word has lead to a demonic understanding and interpretation of 434.
To get us on the right track on what the Word Nisaa' really means, I have two things that I wish to bring to everyone's attention.
First, there are the two Arabic words Nas and Insaan. Nas is supposed to mean "Mankind" and Insaan is supposed to mean "Human" or "Human Being". Two related and similar meanings sharing the same core letters. As far as I can tell, the Arabic word Nisaa' ALSO shares the same core letters as Nas and Insaan. Please look at all three words in Arabic and sound all three of them out as well. It should become clear.
The second thing is Quran Chapter 49, Verse 11 makes it pretty clear that the Arabic word Nisaa' does NOT mean women. This is evident if we read it in Arabic and use some good ole' fashioned common sense.
I am willing to discuss and go through this verse and point it out if anyone here is truly interested in it.
Salaam.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Cross-referencing may shed light on the matter. There are many cross references found! )
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rjl#(4341)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nsw#(4344)
AQ 2222 references l-nisa and menstruation. AQ 434 references both l-nisa
and l-nisi. !AQ 781 references l-rijla, and speaks of approaching l-rijla instead of l-nisi.
AQ 434 references al-rijlu. !Please don't misconstrue this post as support for wife beating/any form of spousal abuse. There are plenty of good threads that bebunk the "wife beating is allowed" thing anyway. hmm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Abdul Hadi,
Thank you for your reply.
I would like to deal with one issue at a time and not jump around to many different issues at once. In other words, I would like to deal with A, B and C before going into D, E and F. )
Hopefully, we could deal with those other verses you have posted later. But in short, I am of the belief that the word Nisaa' does not mean women, 2222 IS NOT talking about women's monthly courses and 781 is not talking about homosexuals and rijaal and nisaa' in that verse doesn't mean men and women respectively.
Again, all of this would be easier to tackle if we deal with 4911 FIRST. That way the other verses you have posted would become clearer.
Salaam.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Shirley I think that you are right. l-nisa can't mean women in general.
I-nisa seems to be another word that means wife. Much as if (in traditional marriage! ) a man refers to his spouse, it means his wife. The word spouse is not the same word, but carries in this context the same meaning.
If there is a better explanation, I'd love to hear it. I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains leak out. )
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace to You Abdul Hadi,
I believe it is impossible for Nisaa' to mean wives either. If it did mean wives, then 43 wouldn't make any sense...
Wa in khiftum Aa Laa tuqseetuu fil yatamaa faankihuu ma taaba lakum MIN AN-NISAAA'.....
According to popular Muslim thinking, if the word Nisaa' means wives then 43 would say; If you all fear you all not be just/fair in the abandoned ones, then marry what he is good for you all The Wives....
If Nisaa' means wives, then 43 is telling people to marry The Wives??? A woman becomes a wife AFTER she has been married, and thus declared as a wife. But if we believe that the word Nisaaa' means wives, then this verse would say that they are already wives before being married and becoming a wife.
Can you see the point that I am trying to make? Shall we take a look at 4911 also?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Shirley I did examine AQ 4911--it's the reason why I agree with you that l-nisa can't mean women in general. At the same time, I'm trying more to reason what it ~does~ mean than what it doesn't. hmm
In light of 43, the meaning that ~seems~ to make the most sense is post-pubescent woman.
I don't know for sure and have no attachment to the definition. I'm willing to accept a better definition if it is clear and works in all Quranic contexts.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Again, all of this would be easier to tackle if we deal with 4911 FIRST. That way the other verses you have posted would become clearer.
@Shirley I did examine AQ 4911--it's the reason why I agree with you that l-nisa can't mean women in general. At the same time, I'm trying more to reason what it ~does~ mean than what it doesn't.
What is the point that makes consider that l-nisa can't mean women in general in 4911?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
What is the point that makes consider that l-nisa can't mean women in general in 4911?
It is not 4911 by itself; when juxtaposed with other parts of AQ the quandary becomes clearer. Whatever the meaning is, it has to fit in 4911 (and all other parts of AQ) where the word is used.
In 434 "women" would mean that any man can beat any woman. This wouldn't make sense. In 2222 "women" would mean "all women"; it doesn't make sense for a man to approach "all women" sexually--it is reserved for his wife (or wives).
Wives doesn't make sense in all places, especially 43. One can't marry a wife! Why would a word flip/flop meaning, if another word exists that has definite meaning? There must be an error in the understanding of the word.
In light of 43, the meaning that ~seems~ to make the most sense is post-pubescent woman--perhaps "post-pubescent woman who is protected" would be even better.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Abdul Hadi and Mazhar,
Salaam 'Alaykum.
Mazhar, I like the explanation that was given by Abdul Hadi concerning 4911. I would like to add something else to that.
Specifically looking at 4911, the traditional understanding is that the second exhortation is directed towards WOMEN!! We should take a closer look at this. Here is the translation by Free-Minds...
O you who believe, let not any PEOPLE ridicule other PEOPLE, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any WOMEN ridicule other WOMEN, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
The two key words in this verse are the words PEOPLE and WOMEN which is why I have underlined them. Now, we should look at this verse in the original Arabic. Sorry I do not have Arabic fonts on my PC. I'll do my best to 'Transliterate' it as I have in my original post...
Yaaa ayyuhuul 'aladheena 'amanoo Laa yaskhar QAWMUN min QAWMIN 'asaa 'an yakunoo khairun minhum wa laaa NISAA'UN mmin NISAA'IN 'an yakoonna khairun min hunna wa laa talmizuu 'anfusakum wa laa tanaabazoo bil 'alqaab bi' sa' al ismul fusooq ba'adal eeman wa mal lam yatub fa'ulaaika hum ad-dhaalimoon
The first word, Qawmun/Qawmin means people, nation, tribe among other definitions. Because of this, all of the translations have rendered this word as "PEOPLE" as the Free-Minds translation has it. Where it gets tricky is that "PEOPLE" encompasses EVERYONE, INCLUDING WOMEN!! So it would make no sense to speak about the actions of a PEOPLE and then speak about the actions of only WOMEN in the same breath. WOMEN were already included in the FIRST group which is QAWMUN.
To speak about men AND women, then the first word should NOT be QAWMUN. It should be another word representing a male, man or men and juxtapose the two genders as a pair just as it does in many other places such as 2430-31, 242 and 243 just to cite a few examples.
So if QAWMUN and NISAA'UN are mentioned as opposites of an equal pair, then that means that this word (Nisaa' means something totally different than what we have been taught that it means and how it is translated in the present translations.
Something I have mentioned in my opening post I wish to mention again;
In the Arabic language, the plural form of a word will ALWAYS be constructed from the same root as its singular counterpart. Thus we have Masjid and Masaajid. We have Mal and Amwaal. We have Kitab and kutub.
For the singular for man, we have the word Rajul and the plural is Rijaal. BUT, the singular word woman is Imraa' YET we are taught its plural form is NISAA'???!! A TOTALLY unrelated word from a TOTALLY unrelated root!!!
Because of this, I wish to repeat my earlier request. If someone wishes to convince me that Nisaa' is the plural for Imraa', then PLEASE show me another Word In The Quran as well as another word from the available Arabic Vocabulary that has a singular and plural form from two entirely, different and unrelated roots.
Once we realize that we cannot HONESTLY do so, then we can continue our journey of "Process of Elimination" and arrive at the accurate or more appropriate definition of this word Nisaa'.
Salaam.
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Peace Shirley,
The translation of "nisaa" has been bothering me for a while as well. I made a thread almost a month ago in regards to my misunderstanding of the ablution process (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602871.0) that involves the word as well. Maybe it can also help for finding a possible meaning.
I'm very interested in seeing the outcome of this topic. Have you any ideas to offer in the meanwhile?
May peace be with you.
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http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.104a.gif
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/049.%20Al%20Hujrat/49.11.gif
Some people of a community should not indulge in mocking/ridiculing another group of community, since it is possible that they might be better than them;http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/049.%20Al%20Hujrat/49.11a.gif
and nor a group of women from amongst women should indulge mocking/ridiculing other women, it is possible that they might be better than them;The word is NOT used to signify a community of women alone.
The word originally signifies a group of men.
The word when signifies a "Nation" it includes women alongwith men as well.First is the subject of Jussive Verb and with apposition is the subject of verb, for which reason both are nominative. The preposition signifies subset of a group. It has been made distinct the advice is both for men and women. The pronouns used are also distincty for men and women.
The verb cannot be used if even only one man is included therein amongst thousands and hundreds of thousands of women.
The same word, which has only plural form, is used, in relation, for wives
The object of verb means "wives" and not women.
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Some people of a community should not indulge in mocking/ridiculing another group of community, since it is possible that they might be better than them;
Okay, so far this grammatically is sound.
and nor a group of women from amongst women should indulge mocking/ridiculing other women, it is possible that they might be better than them;
This is where I disagree with you. In the first part of the verse, the word Qawmun is clearly NOT definite. Because the definite article is not included, then the word Qawmun means A group/community/nation.
Secondly, you translated it as SOME people when the Arabic word for some (Ba'dun) is not mentioned in this verse. So it is NOT Some People. It is do not mock/ridicule A NATION/GROUP of PEOPLE at A NATION/GROUP of PEOPLE possibly they are better than them.
Third of all, when speaking on Nisaa', it is done as a continuation from speaking on Qawmun because the second part of the verse says Wa Laa....which means AND/AS WELL AS...
Fourthly, there is a double standard in the way in which you have translated the part of the verse on Nisaa'. The first part, you have translated it as people of a community should not indulge in mocking/ridiculing ANOTHER group of community and yet translated the concerns of Nisaa' as nor a group of women from amongst women should indulge mocking/ridiculing other women
There is something wrong with this part of the translation. First you have mentioned the incorrect definition of women Three Times in your translation when the original Arabic mentions the word Nisaa' only two times.
Also, the address of Nisaa' is a continuation of what has been started with Qawmun in the beginning of the verse. There has been no change in the context or senntence. But in the first part talking about Qawmun, you have translated the word min to mean another but then translate this same word to mean from amongst women and this is done in order to make your understanding fit. From amongst nisaa' would be min nisaa', but since min nisaa' is mentioned only once you would have to make a decision as to which one it means.....AMONGST nisaa' or AT nisaa'. It cannot mean both at the same time. It could only mean one or the other. And the BEGINNING CONTEXT of this verse compels me to choose the ATnisaa' meaning.
The word is NOT used to signify a community of women alone.
I agree with you. It signifies an entire community/nation/group of PEOPLE. Men, women and children. So as I said, it is pointless and redundant to think that women alone are being talked about in the second part of the verse when they were already included in the first part of the verse sense women also are a part of a Qawm .
The word originally signifies a group of men.
There is not a single Arabic dictionary that says that the word Qawm originally signifies a group of men. I have read the term group of men being included as a possible definition, but nowhere have I ever read that it ORIGINALLY signifies a group of men.
Now, do I believe that it can mean or should mean men in many usages throughout The Quran?? Me personally, I say no. I will not ignore the fact that all of the Arabic dictionaries were written by MEN and the first one was written during the Abbasid era. These two facts have forced me to approach ALL Arabic dictionaries with minute caution. We also cannot ignore the FACT that the Arab culture and ethos always has been, is presently and more than likely will continue to be Male Chauvinist. This also effects meanings and definitions they will give to certain terms in their dictionaries.
The word when signifies a "Nation" it includes women alongwith men as well.
Exactly, this is the point that I have been trying to make.
No matter what else Sibawayh and those who copied him have to say, if something doesn't make sense, then it doesn't make sense. We should Put the grammar books down and exercise some common sense. Only then will we start to make sense of things that haven't been making any sense at all for centuries now.
Salaam.
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There is not a single Arabic dictionary that says that the word Qawm originally signifies a group of men. I have read the term group of men being included as a possible definition, but nowhere have I ever read that it ORIGINALLY signifies a group of men.
Now, do I believe that it can mean or should mean men in many usages throughout The Quran?? Me personally, I say no. I will not ignore the fact that all of the Arabic dictionaries were written by MEN and the first one was written during the Abbasid era. These two facts have forced me to approach ALL Arabic dictionaries with minute caution. We also cannot ignore the FACT that the Arab culture and ethos always has been, is presently and more than likely will continue to be Male Chauvinist. This also effects meanings and definitions they will give to certain terms in their dictionaries.
Quote from
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Secondly, you translated it as SOME people when the Arabic word for some (Ba'dun) is not mentioned in this verse. So it is NOT Some People. It is do not mock/ridicule A NATION/GROUP of PEOPLE at A NATION/GROUP of PEOPLE possibly they are better than them.
"Some" signifies an unspecified number, quantity, or proportion of a total.
"lil tabeez", to indicate division into parts.And it is a Mass noun. And the words used are . a subset of a set-some/unspecified number of people from a community/group of people. Similarly for women the words are a subset of women from the set of women.
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Quote from
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Thank you for quoting this excerpt from Lisaanul 'Arab. I stand corrected when I said there isn't a single dictionary that says Qawm originally signifies men. I do have a digital copy of Lisaanul 'Arab (as well as some other Arabic-Arabic Dictionaries) but hardly use it because I do not have a hardcopy of it which is my preference.
Now, you and I have a choice as to rather we would accept or not accept this interpretation. I am sure you have chosen to ACCEPT it. I choose NOT to accept it and I do so because the flaw in this interpretation is written in the explanation itself;
It says it signified men because Ar-Rijaal were dominant as compared to nisaa'. There are some problems with this. First, the REAL WORD for men is already mentioned here....Rijaal. One word is used to mean MEN and another word is adopted to mean men because men (rijaal) dominate over women (which nisaa' is incorrectly used to signify women).
Also, using a word to mean men (in place of a word which ALREADY EXISTS to mean men ) due to them dominating the opposite gender is an adaptation of that meaning as it is entirely based upon manmade criteria and male chauvinism.
Thirdly, I feel the need to re iterate what I had said in my last post. There are NO dictionaries or grammar books that are PRE ABBASID!!! Every Arabic grammar book and dictionary in existence are POST ABBASID. This is a very, very, very important thing to keep in mind when studying ANY grammar or dictionary of Arabic. Very Important!!
If you cannot (or will not) see the reality and importance of this aspect of "Islamic" history, then it would basically be pointless to have a discussion on Quranic Arabic understanding since you would be coming from one angle and understanding and I would be coming from the exact opposite angle and understanding.
But I will conclude at least this post by pointing out that Rajul has always been used to mean man and rijaal has always been used to mean men. How, why, where, and when did Qawm make its way to also mean men. Something to please, please, please contemplate....we have the SINGULAR form for rijaal which is rajul. But WHERE is the singular form of Qawm if Qawm means MEN. This is a plural form so it MUST have a singular form as well. It looks like this wordplay on Qawm has the same flaw as the wordplay on Imra'a and Nisaa'. If we use our minds, stop letting tradition and history do our thinking for us and ask KEY and CRITICAL questions, the flaws and bullet holes would start to reveal themselves.
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Fourthly, there is a double standard in the way in which you have translated the part of the verse on Nisaa'. The first part, you have translated it as people of a community should not indulge in mocking/ridiculing ANOTHER group of community and yet translated the concerns of Nisaa' as nor a group of women from amongst women should indulge mocking/ridiculing other women
There is something wrong with this part of the translation. First you have mentioned the incorrect definition of women Three Times in your translation when the original Arabic mentions the word Nisaa' only two times.
In translation, while keeping regard for the target language, an attempt need to be made to avoid "translation loss" to the maximum. "some people of a community"- signifies a group of people from amongst people=a group of women from amongst women. The preposition "Min" indicates sub division signifying a sub set from the main set.
Pl see the text, women are mentioned four times.
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Quran is the first arabic dictionary and grammar.
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There is not a single Arabic dictionary that says that the word Qawm originally signifies a group of men. I have read the term group of men being included as a possible definition, but nowhere have I ever read that it ORIGINALLY signifies a group of men.
Another quote-Lane
A people or body of persons composing a community and people or persons; a company or body or party of men without women; or of men and women together for the Qaum of every man is his party, and his kinsfolk or tribe.
I hope the purpose or cause of mentioning women separately would be understood for reason of prevailing perception about the word Qaum.
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"Some" signifies an unspecified number, quantity, or proportion of a total.
"lil tabeez", to indicate division into parts.And it is a Mass noun. And the words used are . a subset of a set-some/unspecified number of people from a community/group of people. Similarly for women the words are a subset of women from the set of women.
I feel that this explanation doesn't do anything for the simple fact that the Arabic word for Some or Some of is Ba'Ddun and this word simply doesn't exist in this verse. This word is mentioned in 236, so if 4911 is meant to mean Some Nisaa' then it would simply say Ba'Dd nisaa'. If it says it, it says. If it doesn't say it, then it doesn't say. For me it really is that simple.
The explanation above doesn't do anything for me in the face of Tasreef, asking critical questions, a willingness to THINK outside of the traditional box and use good ole' fashion common sense.
But that's just me.
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In translation, while keeping regard for the target language, an attempt need to be made to avoid "translation loss" to the maximum. "some people of a community"- signifies a group of people from amongst people=a group of women from amongst women.
But the problem is that there is an Arabic word for some or some of and that word is Ba'aDdun and this word is NOT mentioned or used in 4911, yet it is used elsewhere in The Quran. If the idea of SOME or SOME OF was meant to be conveyed, then the most appropriate word to convey that idea would have been used. But......
The preposition "Min" indicates sub division signifying a sub set from the main set.
This is picking and choosing. You have not translated this same word as a sub division signifying a subset from a main set in the first part of your translating relating to Qawm, but you are now translating this word differently as related to Nisaa' to make your understanding of women to fit in it. I cannot accept such a thing. But, that's just me.
Pl see the text, women are mentioned four times.
Women isn't mentioned AT ALL in this verse...let alone four times.