Alcohol
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I am not a Bible fan as you know for a) the Quran overrides the Bible (see 54,
In light of this statement, can you please provide an exegesis of 541-49, and 565-66? Thanks.
and b) the Bible is distorted to say the least in its transmission of the words of Jesus Christ.
Are you claiming that the Quran teaches this? Or that you have evidence that the words of Christ we have now, are different from what they were originally? Thanks.
P.S. It might be better to start a new thread, if you intend to answer.
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Peace,
Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.
Ith'mun/harm is not sin and is the opposite of benefit and prohibited is causing al-ith'ma/the harm to others not the use of things which if used improperly may cause ith'mun/harm to oneself.
2219 they ask you about al-khamri/the inebriant and the gambling say in them both ith'mun/harm great and benefits to the mankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both
733 say indeed what prohibited my Lord the immorality what apparent from it and what hidden wal-ith'ma/and the harm and the oppression without the truth and that you associate with The God what not He sent down in it authority and that you say on The God what not you know
Likewise difference between al-khamri and sakaran and it's not good to interchange them.
443 O you the ones who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying
1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for people who reason
Thus people can make harmful things like intoxicants and helpful things (i.e. that benefit, cause temporary pain relief etc). The verses pertaining to the topic are like warning labels for drugs, drinks, and even the best foods which if over consumed can lead obesity and other health issues.
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Thanks
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Peace Noon dhe plume
Bad deeds are named as sin in Quran?.Whether you?d like to call a sin harm on anything else that?s your choice but God in 2219 says that there is great sin in intoxicants.
Thus people can make harmful things like intoxicants and helpful things (i.e. that benefit, cause temporary pain relief etc). The verses pertaining to the topic are like warning labels for drugs, drinks, and even the best foods which if over consumed can lead obesity and other health issues.
God doesn?t put warning label on things like that and leave it to us to make the decision whether we are capable to handle it rightlfully or not?God specifies that the sins of intoxicants overweight the benefit .And then in 590 commands us to avoid them?.How is it possible that Merciful God leaves us in bewilderedness zone to decide what to do when He precisely says that the sin in them is greater than their benefit that we might think and then commanding us avoiding them as we must avoid idolatry in 590?..Below is the list of occurrence of the word of sin .In none of them God labels them .God is reminding us what sins are and then He specifically calls the sin Haram in 733.
285
2173
2181
2182
2182
2188
2203
2203
2206
2219
2219
3178
420
448
450
4111
4112
4112
52
53
529
529
562
563
5107
6120
6120
733
2411
3358
4237
4912
5332
588
589
Asana
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Dear Layth
I answered exactly the point you raised (and which you did a good job of highlighting in bold and font size and color), yet it seems you were not satisfied wiht my answer and are saying I should have answered more!?
Interesting that you say this. My answer was exactly proportionate to the question raised - yet, because it did not meet your preconcieved notion on the subject, it has become unnaceptable. What am I to say?
You answered to two questions in the same manner! It looks like you didn?t have answer to them!
I am not looking for satisfaction by your answers. I?m looking for the Truth of God to be shined?I submit to God no matter what .It has no any effects on me whether it?s forbidden or not .Let me remind you of your claim. You stated that the word "Ith" being used in the subject of alcohol is a violation of God's commands as the belivers are to avoid "Ithm". I simply pointed out that alcohol in itself has never been called "Ithm" but that the verse says "In Them is Ithm" which gives a drastically differnt conclusion than that which you had raised.
You mean when God says there is sin in some things(2219...590) it means that we can ignore what God says by takeing things in our own hands to see whether we?re capable in handling it or not. Is that why you?re implying?!
God's Book has no contradictions. The object to be avoided is "Satan" (IjtanibuHu) and not the items as you are attempting to make out. Will you still insist on making the Quran say what it is not saying?
In your opinion according to your statement how should we suppose avoid Satan?
It looks like according to you one can drink or gamble but at the same time can remember God?It looks like you take the verse conditionally if only one can behave moderately not in excess while God command us to avoid them no matter what kind of logic we come up with it?.Shouldn't God's commands to be taken as ?heard and obeyed? not challenging Him by wishfully thinking that we can handle things?.?Those who challenge God by thinking that they can make decision by being in control take God?s commands in vain?.And that?s exactly why we are here on this earth to decide who is our Master, our ego/Satan or God,who is in control,us or God.
Those who think that they can control themselves by drinking alcohol moderately or gambling a little bit not only violate God?s command by not avoiding them but also causeing that God takes away His supports , leaving them in their wishful thought of controlling which means sending them astray.One can gamble and at the same time Praises God .In this manner the person hasn?t forgotten God but is that God means by avoiding those acts? In this manner God hasn?t be forgotten and one can say God was wrong! Glory be to God, He is above that to command us in vain.
This comment was adressed to all the Internet doctors who are suddenl providing medical claims as to why alcohol should be avoided...I am simply pointing out the obvious, that the risk of such items is related to specific items (causing strife, forgetting the rememberance of God) and not to the myriad of self made excuses that were being posted.
And I wanted to highlight there that Idolatry and intoxicants are in the same boat!. If one think can pass the boundary by committing idolatry by not avoiding it then can use intoxicant a little bit too as some understand for its benefit.
"You make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for people who comprehend"
Can it get any clearer than this? God not only acknolweldges that wine is being made from these fruits, but He calls is a "sign" for people who comprehend!
The sign is for the intelligent to be seen we can make out of good things bad things to harm ourselves too. We can commit sin by eating things that God reminded us not to eat.
So, now you are saying that the "khamr" in Heaven is not real "khamr" (fruit juce I guess!). Naming it "khamr" then becomes a msitake on God's part since it will not "cover" as "khamr" inherintly does - you are clutching at straw shere.
Are you sure dear Layth I?m clutching at straw here? Then why God asks the drunken not to observer Salat?
When the brain doesn't function properly by using intoxicants is in a state of ?sukara?.
BTW are you saying that the wine in Paradise is polluted too as on earth where God says according to you there is harm in them? I hope you can see the fallacy of your logic here.
The only grey-zone is the one you have constructed on your own...A believer can be intoxicated and still be a believer (see 443) - will you dispute this obvious fact
?A believer commit sin too?Are you disputing that it?s possible a believer miss his/her Salat too and yet to be called a believer?
Glory be to God that asks a drunken by not committing second sin by observing Salat where he/she can blasphemies too or hurt oneself through the motions of prayer etc?a believer never miss her/his prayer?.Once missed it, it can?t be substituted again?And isn?t a punishment from God by not making an exist to the drunken to substitute the missing Salat/s? Are you still would like to insist on that a drunken hasn?t committed a sin? Wow.
May God enlighten the heart of the believers with His True Light to see His Truth.
Peace
Asana -
Peace to you all,
Here are 2 questions that I will pose and I hope it will make some see what to others is crystal clear-
Can a person who is in a state of "intoxication/drunkeness" still be considered a "believer/mumin"? (see 443 for help)
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Do "believers/mumins" adhere fully to God's laws, never ignoring them, and only carrying out acts that He has permitted/allowed? (see 2573, 2451 for help)
If you have answered "yes" to both questions, then you will be able to understand all the verses on the subject with the light of this foundation...But if your answer is "no", then there is nothing else that can be said...
Dear Layth, this is based on logical fallacy called Either/Or... You are confusing the prescriptive statements with descriptive ones and you are limiting our choice with the prescriptive one...
Using the same flawed logic, we should say "it is okay to kill each other, in fact 'moderation' in killing each other is the characteristic of a 'moderate society' (ummatan wasata)."! See 499.
As you see, you do not have it crystal clear; to the contrary, you are trying to defend one of the acts, which are depicted as "the works of devil", which is followed by the divine instruction "stay away from them."
So, I follow those verses you quoted and STAY AWAY from alcohol and gambling.
Peace,
Edip -
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Dear Edip,
If I am drunk/intoxicated, can I still be a believer in my state of drunkeness?
I claim this is a simple observation that anyone can deduce from 443 - even the Quran hating Sunni Arabs - which is why they invented the law of "abrogation".
Regards,
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Peace Asana,
Bad deeds are named as sin in Quran?.Whether you?d like to call a sin harm on anything else that?s your choice but God in 2219 says that there is great sin in intoxicants.
God doesn?t put warning label on things like that and leave it to us to make the decision whether we are capable to handle it rightlfully or not?God specifies that the sins of intoxicants overweight the benefit .And then in 590 commands us to avoid them?.How is it possible that Merciful God leaves us in bewilderedness zone to decide what to do when He precisely says that the sin in them is greater than their benefit that we might think and then commanding us avoiding them as we must avoid idolatry in 590?..Below is the list of occurrence of the word of sin .In none of them God labels them .God is reminding us what sins are and then He specifically calls the sin Haram in 733.
2219 they ask you about the inebriant and the gambling say in them both harm great and benefits to the mankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both
733 say indeed prohibited my Lord the immorality what apparent from it and what hidden and the harm and the oppression without the truth and that you associate with The God what not He sent down in it authority and that you say on The God what not you know
Do you not see the contradiction in using/translating as sin?
How can there be any benefit to mankind in committing sin?Prohibited is causing the harm (opposite of benefit) like hitting someone in the head with a beer bottle. Be precise in the reading and not interchange dissimilar words like al-khamri and sakaran; here are relevant verses for reference and it's avoid him (the devil) not avoid them...
443 O you the ones who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying
1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for people who reason
590 O you the ones who believe indeed the inebriant and the gambling and the monuments and the arrows filth from work the devil so avoid him that you may prosper
591 indeed intends the devil that cause between you the hostility and the hatred in the inebriant and the gambling and hinder you about remembrance The God and from the prayer so shall you (be) those who abstain?
592 and obey The God and obey the messenger and beware so if you turn away so know that only on Our messenger the conveyance the clear
Things to be aware of are the drunkenness and the gambling if one is to prosper.
Example; if all people who frequent casinos were sober and really good at gaming theory (i.e. deployed card counting and only raised their bets after a win) the casinos would lose and have to close down or change the rules so they are at an advantage again which of course the sober person would know odds are against them same as the lottery (a form of arrows) and not waste their time.
Cheers!
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Peace Noon dhe plume
Do you not see the contradiction in using/translating as sin?
You have chosen to use the word of harm instead of sin while God uses the word of sin as I said before.
You?re trying to explain what sin is while we know in what context God uses the word of sin?.Your repeated explanation doesn?t change the fact that the word of sin has been used by God in 2219 plus other verses and sin has been made Haram by God in 733 unless you'd like to deny that which of course you can't.
What you?re trying to say is that it?s impossible something benefit us a bit but at the same time harm us and for that reason God calls it sin and then make the sins Haram....As you can see God has done it!
Please don?t forget that when God makes meat of the pig Haram, Almighty God explains the reason behind it likewise God reminds us about the small benefit of intoxicants/gambling where its great sin wipes out their benefits .If God wanted us using intoxicants in moderation or for its benefit He wouldn?t have called it ?rijs/abomination? work of Satan.
you?re reminding me that it?s the Satan who we should avoid .What you say means using the intoxicant for example on its own is not what God means but it?s the Satan while you forget that avoiding the work of Satan is avoiding him???.The reason behind our test on this earth is about avoiding Satan but how we should avoid him is another matter where God reminds us intoxicant is an abomination and one of the Satan?s work that must be avoided! In regarding command of God there is no such as if or maybe! It?s simple, avoid Satan through his works/tools and say yes God ?heard and obeyed??.Believers do not challenge God by ignoring His reminders/commands.
I really like to know how you avoid Satan regarding 590.
I'm aware of usage of the word of Sakaran in 1667 instead of intoxicant and i'd like you to tell me the difference between the state of mind by using intoxicants as used in 2219 and sakaran in 1667 if it's used.Below is the list of occurrences of word of ?rijs? in entire Quran.Please note that all the sins promotes by Satan and are ?rijs?;
590
6125
6145
771
995
9125
9125 l10100
2230And here is the occurrences of the word of ?avoiding? Please note the usage of the word of sin in 4912 where God commands us to avoid certain suspicions and calls it ?ithm/sin??.Avoiding Satan is avoiding the action/work of Satan .He promotes it by enticing us in doing them in order to take the lead to divert us from the Straight path of God and as soon as he is chose over God, Almighty God takes away His support sending us astray
431
590
1636
2230
2230
3917
4237
4912
5332Asana
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Dear Edip,
If I am drunk/intoxicated, can I still be a believer in my state of drunkeness?
I claim this is a simple observation that anyone can deduce from 443 - even the Quran hating Sunni Arabs - which is why they invented the law of "abrogation".
Regards,
Dea Layth
As a beliver, one may commit a sin and still maintain his or her faith and acknowledgement.
As an acrobat, one may fall while walking on the street and still maintain his or her title.
As an author, one may construct a horrible sentence and still maintain his or her profession.
As a comedian, one may cry and make people cry and still be consitered a commedian.
...However, committing sin is not good for a believer, falling down while walking is not good for an acrobat... Committing those errors on will and continously might "engulf one with sins" and destroy his dreams, position, reputation, or career...
PS If something is considered as "work of satan" and we are instructed to "stay away" from it, then there should be a categorical definition of such a sin, or a clearer border.
I hope the best for you.
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Peace Noon dhe plume
You have chosen to use the word of harm instead of sin while God uses the word of sin as I said before.
You?re trying to explain what sin is while we know in what context God uses the word of sin?.Your repeated explanation doesn?t change the fact that the word of sin has been used by God in 2219 plus other verses and sin has been made Haram by God in 733 unless you'd like to deny that which of course you can't.
What you?re trying to say is that it?s impossible something benefit us a bit but at the same time harm us and for that reason God calls it sin and then make the sins Haram....As you can see God has done it!
Please don?t forget that when God makes meat of the pig Haram, Almighty God explains the reason behind it likewise God reminds us about the small benefit of intoxicants/gambling where its great sin wipes out their benefits .If God wanted us using intoxicants in moderation or for its benefit He wouldn?t have called it ?rijs/abomination? work of Satan.
Peace Asana -- one thing at time.
You interpret harm as sin (in Christian theology a transgression of God's law knowingly and willingly) and where does it say that drugs or alcohol have "a bit" or little benefit to mankind since the word little is not there?
2219 say in them both harm great and benefits to the mankind
and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them bothTherefore, according to your reading it's a sin to inject cocaine products or use alcohol to sterilize tools during oral surgery your next root canal or any surgery for that matter because "the sin" is greater than the benefit for the people?
PS If something is considered as "work of satan" and we are instructed to "stay away" from it, then there should be a categorical definition of such a sin, or a clearer border.
Same question to you -- what is "work of satan" a glass of wine/beer or the gambling while intoxicated?
During your next tooth extraction or root canal will you refuse and tell the doctor, no thanks it is a sin?
I hope the best for you.
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I feel that if something is an abomination to Allah SWT, then we should stay away from it.
Having said that, Allah SWT continually calls on believers to use their reason and tells us in the Holy Qur'an that even for our thinking/reason we will be questioned.
Humans tend to abuse things Allah SWT so graciously granted them. One of those things is alcohol. Alcohol is the reason for people to get sick (i.e. alcohol induced mental health problems, poisoning), to get killed (i.e. in some countries drunk driving is #1 killer) and disintegrates families (i.e. increase in abuse in the family). And of course, Allah SWT tells us that alcohol drives people away from remembering Allah SWT.
So, I say, there is a plenty of reason to avoid alcohol, hadith or not.
I understand that anti-Hadith movement is 100% anti-hadith, but it is fair to say that not all hadiths are evil. Many of the good ones can just be the fruits of clear human reason.
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I'd say it most definitely is haram. The Qur'an mentions the word "intoxicants" and alcohol is an intoxicant, and also one of the most harmful intoxicants. As somebody who grew up around an alcoholic(My step-dad) I can believe 100% that alcohol is harmful. There's apologist movements that'll try to say it's healthy in moderation, but in reality the stuff that makes alcohol "healthy" you can get from much better sources. Grapes are an excellent example.
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Alcohol is the reason for people to get sick (i.e. alcohol induced mental health problems, poisoning), to get killed...
They say so many people die because of alcohol
They never realized how many of them are born because of it hmm
(source unknown)
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Peace Noon dhe plum
where does it say that drugs or alcohol have "a bit" or little benefit to mankind since the word little is not there?
My apology for not being precise?.When there is some benefit in intoxicants and its sin is greater ,it means that the benefit is much less than its sin. Are you going to refute what God says comparing the sin and benefit? When one receives retribution for it then its benefit not only is minute but also nothing I can say!
Therefore, according to your reading it's a sin to inject cocaine products or use alcohol to sterilize tools during oral surgery your next root canal or any surgery for that matter because "the sin" is greater than the benefit for the people?
Using it for sterilization is not as one using it putting it in the body.
As for injection containing cocaine as a believer should be avoided.........I?ve witnessed those who use painkillers containing codeine suffer from hallucination and other irritation. I have a first hand experience from somebody who loved using the codeine one not the other painkillers?I witnessed how much he had changed?I went through big surgery .I was offered in using morphine for my pain?I refused it and by Will of God I managed to cope with painkillers?.It?s all up to strength of our belief in God by asking Him to help.
I hope I answered your question. Can I now ask you to answer my questions please? Thanks.
Asana
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In 443 it is said to the believers stay away from the salat while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying. I didn't think much of this but let's consider the obvious consequences -
1.) You can be a believer and possess intoxicants/be intoxicated
2.) You can be a believer and carry out the entire salat WHILE intoxicated AS LONG AS you understand what you are sayingNow these two things cannot be denied unless you wish to cling to fear & distrust of ALLAH's words. Therefore not only is intoxication not forbidden for all but the believers too. Why would creator allow something for the non-mumin and forbid it to the mumin totally? You can argue "but but but... any Intelligent Believer will use his intelligence and stay away". That is correct to whatever degree but totally irrelevant. What about the foolish believers? "Stay away from the fire so you don't get burnt" =/= "If you touch that fire you deserve to burn in hell"
Moving on to 1667 let us apply logic again. In 1667 there is a clear distinction between sakara and hasan. Throughout the quran the root ( ن signifies better/best/correct/exemplary. It is used with regards to something that is purely good. On the other hand sakara is called rijis in 590 and in 2219 it is said there is both ith'm and amana in sakara. We must understand that English words blur the clear distinctions and usages of the terms behind them.
Things labelled as hasan are purely good. Things labelled as rijis are impure. Ithm does not mean exactly sin, it implies ultimately decreasing/inefficient/wasteful/unbalancing, to contrast with naf which implies ultimately increasing/beneficial/purposeful/balancing. Sakara cannot ever be named hasan but nor can you take away that God said it has some increase. We must also be aware that ithm is not the opposite to naf either with reference to goodness, only increase/decrease. With reference to goodness, its opposite is darra, e.g. in 2555 where ALLAH is He who alone brings forth goodly increase and harm.
If ithm meant sin then there would be no need to make any distinguishment in other places like 562. See for example 6812 where 3 different things come together to constitute hell-worthiness (what in English we call "Evil" - forbidding the good, transgressing the limits, and causing decrease/waste/imbalance (ithm).
So 2219 = in it there is a profit/increase and a loss/decrease for men and the loss is greater than the profit
Not "harm" or "benefit"!
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If ithm meant sin then there would be no need to make any distinguishment in other places like 562. See for example 6812 where 3 different things come together to constitute hell-worthiness (what in English we call "Evil" - forbidding the good, transgressing the limits, and causing decrease/waste/imbalance (ithm).
So 2219 = in it there is a profit/increase and a loss/decrease for men and the loss is greater than the profit
Not "harm" or "benefit"!
Peace OPF -- nice post and good to see you post.
Same concept opposites/antonyms whichever word conveys closest and best meaning in English.Peace Noon dhe plum
My apology for not being precise?.When there is some benefit in intoxicants and its sin is greater ,it means that the benefit is much less than its sin. Are you going to refute what God says comparing the sin and benefit? When one receives retribution for it then its benefit not only is minute but also nothing I can say!
Using it for sterilization is not as one using it putting it in the body.
As for injection containing cocaine as a believer should be avoided.........I?ve witnessed those who use painkillers containing codeine suffer from hallucination and other irritation. I have a first hand experience from somebody who loved using the codeine one not the other painkillers?I witnessed how much he had changed?I went through big surgery .I was offered in using morphine for my pain?I refused it and by Will of God I managed to cope with painkillers?.It?s all up to strength of our belief in God by asking Him to help.
I hope I answered your question. Can I now ask you to answer my questions please? Thanks.
Asana
Peace Asana -- see above by OPF.
Thus according to your reading all people commit sin and are transgressing when they have oral surgery for example, need to sterilize the mouth, remove infections, or take pain inhibitors before having their wisdom teeth removed and thus all shall receive retribution/punishment?
Let's stay with loss/harm whichever conveys best meaning while you translate as sin ?
4912 avoid much from the conjecture indeed some the conjecture loss/harm
If a person has a drink not sukr/drunk are they conscious/aware what they?re saying?
443 O you the ones who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying
Likewise sakara (e.g. a glass of date/grape wine) where is loss/harm, post the verses?
1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for people who reason
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In 1952, Noah S. ?Soggy? Sweat, Jr., a member of the Mississippi House of Representatives, was asked about his position on Alcohol. Here?s how he answered
"If you mean whiskey, the devil?s brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean that evil drink that topples Christian men and women from the pinnacles of righteous and gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, shame, despair, helplessness, and hopelessness, then, my friend, I am opposed to it with every fiber of my being"
"However, if by whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the elixir of life, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer, the stimulating sip that puts a little spring in the step of an elderly gentleman on a frosty morning; if you mean that drink that enables man to magnify his joy, and to forget life?s great tragedies and heartbreaks and sorrow; if you mean that drink the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars each year, that provides tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitifully aged and infirm, to build the finest highways, hospitals, universities, and community colleges in this nation, then my friend, I am absolutely, unequivocally in favor of it"
siki
