The Perfect Response
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Hi guys,
I'll keep this short and I apologise if this has been done before.
Whenever I tell people, whether it be family members or friends, about Qur'an alone and a refusal to follow the hadith, they often reply with the fair question "what about verses in the Qur'an that say Obey Allah and obey the messenger?"
Although I think I know what these verses mean, I find it difficult to verbalise my thoughts. I was wondering if anyone had a concise response that they may have used in the past that I could give that sums up the God alone side of the debate. The more the better!
Thanks,
Ty
Highlights above are from me.
Common sense dictates that, to obey someone, that someone MUST be a LIVING one. It is impossible to obey the DEAD. Likewise, as a sound-minded human, I cannot obey or follow a dead human, he/she is no longer among us to be recognized as one of us.
On the other hand, GOD, Almighty is EVERLIVING, ETERNAL, and OMNIPRESENT. His word, i.e. The Qur'aan, is also readily with us. I do not follow but The Qur'aan, the EVERLIVING MESSENGER. We are inherited no religious guidance but The Qur'aan. See 3531,32 below.
And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing.
Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; but of them is he who makes his soul to suffer a loss, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence.
Peace,
Khalil -
Thank you so much for your post "kgwithnob"!
Thank you so much for the statements and clarifying them with those quotes from The Reading (Quran)!
What you wrote is so enlightening!
The Qur'aan, the EVERLIVING MESSENGER
That's it!
Thank you!
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Hi guys,
I'll keep this short and I apologise if this has been done before.
Whenever I tell people, whether it be family members or friends, about Qur'an alone and a refusal to follow the hadith, they often reply with the fair question "what about verses in the Qur'an that say Obey Allah and obey the messenger?"
Although I think I know what these verses mean, I find it difficult to verbalise my thoughts. I was wondering if anyone had a concise response that they may have used in the past that I could give that sums up the God alone side of the debate. The more the better!
Thanks,
Ty
Depending on who you are speaking to, my response is "But I do obey the Messenger". That throws "them" off guard and they really don't know how to respond.
I usually point out the similarities rather than the differences. We do follow the sunnah of the prophet, but we are content with the sunnah described in the Quran. We also follow hadith but we are content with the hadith found in the Quran. I stress the point that we can agree that the only book that can without a doubt be classified as "true" is the Quran.The best "tactic" I have found is to answer a question with a question. "Obey the messenger? In which way do I not obey the Messenger?"
Mind you, this "tactic" I have only used so far on traditional muslims who are liberal and progressive, ie my friends. It would not work if you were to discuss with someone more conservative, then I would definately recommend finding evidence in the Quran such as kgwithnob wrote.
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Salam,
Whenever I tell people, whether it be family members or friends, about Qur'an alone and a refusal to follow the hadith, they often reply with the fair question "what about verses in the Qur'an that say Obey Allah and obey the messenger?"
Although I think I know what these verses mean, I find it difficult to verbalise my thoughts. I was wondering if anyone had a concise response that they may have used in the past that I could give that sums up the God alone side of the debate. The more the better!
I would simply state that you do indeed obey God and the messenger. The Quran was not transmitted to us directly from God, but was given as an inspiration to the messenger. Therefore, it is a physical impossibility to obey God without obeying the messenger (i.e. the 2 statements are interrelatred).
This is why God says "whosoever has obeyed the messenger has obeyed God".
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Shalom,
I believe that there is no such thing as "The Perfect Response". What Layth pointed out is something pretty obvious unless you have been programmed to be like my avatar on the left. See the person in the picture ? I cant imagine the messenger going around in arabia asking people to obey God. Most of them already obey "their" God. The ayaat will be pointless unless you inform them of the message which is being inspired to the messenger. Thus, dont obey your monks and priests, obey THE messenger. And, something that we miss out to discuss is, without "THE MESSAGE" , there is no "Messengership". Thus, if Muhammad or anyone isnt teaching the message, why should you obey him at that point ? For you to obey him, he must be messenger(one who is carrying a message).
One of my tactic is to channel them to something specific that ends the argument. Let me demonstrate.
Start by asking "Why dont you let God and his messenger judge between us since we are in dispute ?"
Provide this ayaat
"459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing."Now the average traditionalist would rejoice in the hope of setting partner with Allah Their trainers twist their tongues so much with THE BOOK inorder to sell them satanic things, that they lie against Allah They will try to sell Bukhari/Muslim/Abu Dawud/etc.
Now what we do is share with them some verses about judging found from the Qur'an
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
545 And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
549 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and many of the people are wicked.
550 Is it the judgment of the days of ignorance that they seek? Who is better than God as a judge for a people who comprehend?
Thus, in the light of the above ayaats, Muhammad (along with other messenges/prophets) was required to judge using the kitaab of Allah, not his desire or wish, otherwise, Allah calls the one who does not judge using Allah's book , a kafir a fasik a Zalim. Do you want me to believe that Muhammad was 3 in 1 (kafir+fasik+zalim) ???? Sorry, the messenger was not such kind of a person, I respect him and bow down to his Lord, and can not judge between us using Bukhari/Abu Dawood/etc, because of the said ayaats.
I hope you read that.
PEACE be on you, may Allah be pleased with you
-------------------------------------- Student of Allah
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I need a Verse from Quran Forbidding Hadith Jesus.
Explaination;
Ignite their Curiosity.Curiosity of a Sunni, will drive them to delve into Quran and search for it. At the same time they'll read few verse, and do comprehension.
Most Sunni read the Quran without Comprehension. But by driving their Curiosity, They have to Read, and Comprehend what they are Reading in order to find a Verse that forbids Hadith Jesus.
Comprehension is key. Most Sunni do not activate their comprehension when talking about Islam, they simply Parroting what they are thought, without Comprehending it.
Comprehension is key in searching. Once their Comprehension unleashed the Quran will show them the truth.
Peace.
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There is a perfect response.
Let's suppose obeying the messenger is fine, right down to the number of times he brushed his teeth. After all, ALLAH says his character is exemplary, and he states there is an example in previous prophets like Ibrahim too.
Anything supposed to have come from the messenger must be verified according to 1736. We do not follow hadeeth of Ibrahim for this very reason and neither will you see a Sunni doing so. Then there is the issue of the creator warning us against people using baseless hadeeth in 316. In 1037 we are told quran itself is an explanation/exposition of the divine guidance for mankind.
So where in this is there room for hearsay? Anyone find a verse, let me know. While it says "Obey Allah and obey the messenger" it does not say "judge using ALLAH's words and judge using the messenger's words". It says "judge with what God has sent down" and of course God did not send down any ahadeeth to be transmitted by hearsay.
So there is a perfect response "Read your quran and let it speak for itself"
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Shalom "Student of Allah", nice post!
For the rest, is this about some kind of missionaries? Is there something of a Islamic missionary around?
Why would anybody coerce anybody into something? Why would anybody teach or preach anything to people?
Is it nor written that Allah guides whomever He wants and diverts whomever He wants?
And that whoever is on the Right Path (sirata almustaqueem) nobody can distract him, and whoever is in the wrong direction nobody can straighten him? -
"opening the mind of the closed minded people"
"Ignite their Curiosity"
"Fuel their Curiosity, so they'll willingly search for truth"
"attract their mind to uncover the truth"
What do you all think about that? In my opinion showing the Truth, most of the time ineffective on strongly indoctrinated close-minded people.
7750
Then in what statement after the Qur'an will they believe? -
Salaam Tyler--
I think your family are not challenging you enough ) Instead of asking you "what about follow the Messanger of Allah?" I would have asked you "do you believe Islam is the religion of Abraham?" If you answered 'yes,' then my question to you would be "Did Abraham savs perform Hajj, give zekat, etc?" And if you were to say 'yes,' then my next question would be "The Holy Qur'an tells you to follow the religion of Abraham Islaam. It tells you that he performed Hajj, sacrificed a sheep, etc. But how do you--in this age and time--know how to perform these duties of the religion of Abraham? Muslims before you knew, the ones during the Qur'anic revelation. How do you think that knowledge would have reached us if there is not hadiths to tell us about it?"
Those would be my questions. I would support your view that the Noble Qur'an should be absolute textual authority on Islam, but I would say that the hadiths to follow must be in accordance with the Qur'an as evident from the questions I posed for you.
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Salaam Tyler--
I think your family are not challenging you enough ) Instead of asking you "what about follow the Messanger of Allah?" I would have asked you "do you believe Islam is the religion of Abraham?" If you answered 'yes,' then my question to you would be "Did Abraham savs perform Hajj, give zekat, etc?" And if you were to say 'yes,' then my next question would be "The Holy Qur'an tells you to follow the religion of Abraham Islaam. It tells you that he performed Hajj, sacrificed a sheep, etc. But how do you--in this age and time--know how to perform these duties of the religion of Abraham? Muslims before you knew, the ones during the Qur'anic revelation. How do you think that knowledge would have reached us if there is not hadiths to tell us about it?"
Those would be my questions. I would support your view that the Noble Qur'an should be absolute textual authority on Islam, but I would say that the hadiths to follow must be in accordance with the Qur'an as evident from the questions I posed for you.
In your view any Hadith Jesus, accordance to the Qur'an is okay, and must be follow.
Amica, What do you think about it?
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Thank you all for you suggestions!
I think now I'll be able to handle such a question much better in the future. And thanks Student of Allah for the detailed reply, really helpful.
Cheers guys.
