Pork & Logic
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Hi all,
I must say the stories, reports, etc. cited here is nothing new. But to my mind, they do not hold water. These are statistics based on very small variations, that can easily be turned around and be true for any kind of animals used for food.
The creatures most indifferent concerning their diet do not live on land, they live in the sea, and in the Qur?an I can not find any restrictions on these creatures as food resources.
The findings that the pig is ?unclean? due to it being an ?all-eater?, therefore can not be of any significance as to why it is forbidden as a food source.There are restaurants in China specializing in various dishes of rat-meat, and also, there are numerous food sources around the world, killing a large number of people, like birds and bird products, cattle, and so on.
When we hear the word fat, we think heart disease or some other form of cardiovascular disease. However, animal fat is mostly saturated fat and therefore contains mostly ?good? cholesterol.
So that can hardly be the reason for pig?s flesh being forbidden.Blood is forbidden, but regarded a delicacy in many European countries, like the Scandinavian countries, Germany and so on.
These same countries are also using very high quantities of pig?s products in their food.
The life span and health situation in those countries do not seem to be much affected by this diet either.Immoral living? Please!
No, sorry, I can not agree with all these ?findings?. Something is wrong in this picture. Either our understanding of what food God really asks us to stay away from, or there must be something devastating dangerous with what we are told to avoid.
I tend to lean towards meat not being forbidden, but only fresh, or well preserved meat.
Therefore vegetarianism is probably good, but ?good? meat as well, meaning we should be more careful with the meat we consume.Have we come any closer, or are we all being more confused?
Best regards
Ali Omar
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Peace be upon you Ali,
I tend to lean towards meat not being forbidden, but only fresh, or well preserved meat.
Therefore vegetarianism is probably good, but ?good? meat as well, meaning we should be more careful with the meat we consume.That is the understanding I currently hold as well.
Have we come any closer, or are we all being more confused?
Its hard to tell Let me add some more wood to the fire;
(6146) And on those who guided(hadoo), We forbade every (thing) of nails/claws , and from the cows and the sheep and goats , We forbade on them their fat, except what their backs bore , or the intestines/guts , or what (was) mixed/mingled with bones, that We rewarded/reimbursed them because of their oppression/transgression, and We are truthful (E).
Why are those things prohibited from those people described as "hadoo"?
Why is not pigs meat in that verse? -
Peace be upon you all,
I have been thinking about this pig issue, not about the Arabic, but just about pigs in general. I just see no reason why pigs, to the exclusion of many many filthy animals, were singled out as restricted foods.
I have come to the conclusion that we are being told not to "eat" Greediness into our hearts.
When we remember the story of Adam (mankind), we recall that the basic desire that causes us to fall from the Garden is our GREED for more than we need.
(235) And We said "You Adam, reside/inhabit you and your spouse the garden, and you (both) eat from it easily/comfortably where/when you (both) wanted, and do not approach/near (B) this the tree, so you (B) become from the unjust/oppressors."
We are told that we have everything we need, yet we become GREEDY for more. Nations are now suffering as they always have been becuase of the GREED of those in control. Many of us live in neighborhoods that have homeless, yet we build football stadiums, have game shows where people play games to win millions, casinos, etc.
Greed , which stems from arrogance seems to be the root of the tree of evil. And what better animal to represent greed than the Pig? It doesn't even give any "EXCESS" through sweat because it doesn't have any sweat glands.
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Dear Wakas,
I have not done much research on the subject, and I feel a bit awkward defending pork as a source of nutrition as I have no intention of touching it myself, as yet, but I wonder where you got your facts?
There are researchers who have found the following comparison to be true
3 ounces, cooked/roasted/trimmed
Pork tenderloin, cal. 139, tot. fat 4.1 g, Sat. fat 1.4 g, Cholesterol 67.
Skinless chicken leg, cal. 180, tot. fat 7.1 g, Sat. fat 2.0 g, Cholesterol 80.
Beef tenderloin, cal. 175, tot. fat 8.1 g, Sat. fat 3.0 g, Cholesterol 71.
Salmon fish, cal. 175, tot. fat 11.0 g, Sat. fat 2.1 g, Cholesterol 54.Does not look unfavorable for pork-meat?
Best regards
Ali Omar
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Dear Wakas,
Sorry, I missed the link at first. Got it now though, thanks.
Anyway, pork does not seem to be the worst kind of flesh for the human body, based on the various substances that are affecting our health.
It seems, therefore likely, that this is not an issue in the matter of forbidding this kind of meat rather than other types.
I lean towards health reasons not being grounds for the restrictions.Best regards
Ali Omar
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Peace be upon you,
I also am leaning away from health reasons, there are just way too many unhealthy things for us to be only restricted of pigs meat.
I think it is more of a symbolism of a greedy individual. If you are what you eat, we should not "eat" pigs because greed is a killer of humanity.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
No, I am not "saying" anything right now, only speculating.
What I am pondering is why would the God single out the pig, when there are MANY things that are detremental to our health.
When you study symbolism, you must look at the pig and its characteristics. Just like when one says that rich man will not enter heaven until a camel passes through the eye of a needle, one must study the camel. The God uses these animals to convey a message to us. This is my understanding, but not firm yet. This is all very new thought for me.
When you think of a pig, what characteristics come to mind? And why did Adam and his wife fall from the Garden?
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Peace rossi,
The --> al
In arabic, an adjective has the same attributes as the word it's describing.
For example
The big (the)door --> albabou alkabirou.a big door --> baboun kabiroun. (no al for both words)
In this case, "kabiroun" is an adjective describing "bab", they both have to have al, or both without al for the statement to be correct gramaticaly. And both have the same finishing. (ou or oun)
Example 2
The door of the town --> babou almadinatiYou will notice that only "madinati" has an al, and not "babou". Thus "madinati" cannot be an adjective of babou, because
1- babou and madinati don't have the same finishing.
2- bab has no al, and madinat has an al.
So we know from the gramatical construction of the sentence that "madinat" is not an adjective for "bab".The case we have for "lahmou alkhinziri" is the same as example 2. So "khinziri" cannot be an adjective for "lahmou".
peace someone,
are you suggesting that the Qur'an arabic is 'grammatically wrong' or perhaps you are suggesting that our understanding of the Qur'anic arabic is 'faulty'?
is there a difference between 'modern arabic' and the 'classical arabic' of the Qur'an?salaam
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Salaams idolfree,
please check out
122,1337,16103,20113,26195,3928,413,4144,427,433,4612.I think what allah is saying is the Book is written in plain Arabic so that one can easily understand,i don't know why you want to make things complicated by assuming its mostly symbolic.
Its the people handling and/or the translators who i think have muddled,it.
what do you think?
Salaam.
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If we don't see any logical readon not to eat pork this can mean two things
- we don't have enough knowledge yet to know why,
OR
- we are forbidden to eat it, as an obeidience act. No other reason than "because God told us, and we accept it"
What do you think? The second reason reminds me of some martial art classes I was in when the teacher asked things just for the purpose of testing its students trust in him.
Does that makes sense? -
Peace be upon you MZ,
please check out
122,1337,16103,20113,26195,3928,413,4144,427,433,4612.Yes, I know that THIS reading(quran) was sent down in Arabic. I also remember that it is a confirmation of what was already here. How does this effect anything I have stated? Arabs do not use symbolism? In fact, aren't LETTERS symbols? Letters are only shapes that bring about an idea, and it is the same with pictures. You can have a physical picture in fornt of you, or you can visualize a picture in your head.
I think what allah is saying is the Book is written in plain Arabic so that one can easily understand,i don't know why you want to make things complicated by assuming its mostly symbolic.
But you see, easy and hard are all subjective, what is easy for one person can be hard for the next. I find that much more of the message has opened up to me by looking at it symbolically.
Its the people handling and/or the translators who i think have muddled,it.
what do you think?
I am still weighing the evidence, so far, symbolism is leading.
What I keep in mind is that this is nothing new, the pig has been used in symbolism for a long time.
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Salaams idolfree,
so you think,Allah wanted us to guese at what the symbols meant?Any language is for communications,but obviosly symbols are/can be used aswell but only if the people you want to communicate a message to know what the definition of a symbols is -like in physics or chemistry,so accordingly Allah still needs then in your case to give us the definitions as i belive he hasnn't yet?Or has he?
Salaams.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
Salaams idolfree,
so you think,Allah wanted us to guese at what the symbols meant?No, I think we are suppossed to reason them out just like we do everything.
Any language is for communications,but obviosly symbols are/can be used aswell but only if the people you want to communicate a message to know what the definition of a symbols is -like in physics or chemistry,so accordingly Allah still needs then in your case to give us the definitions as i belive he hasnn't yet?Or has he?
We are still debating definitions now that MOST of mankind disagree about, what is the difference? The God tells us to study the creation. Why?
We developed planes from studying birds
Submarines from fishso many lessons in the animals
(454) And in your creation, and what He scatters/distributes from a walker/creeper/crawler (are) signs to a nation being sure/certain
(2544) Or you think/suppose that most of them hear/listen or reason/comprehend , that they are except as the camels/livestock, but they are more misguided (in) a way/path
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Peace All,
I'm closely following this discussion. It is certainly giving me something to think about.
Does anyone know or have any idea what Isa is referring to in the context of ?eating and storing in your houses?? Could this be a reference to any meat that will eventually rot?
? AND I INFORM YOU OF WHAT YOU SHOULD EAT AND WHAT YOU SHOULD STORE IN YOUR HOUSES; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
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Peace be upon you Grourself,
I'm closely following this discussion. It is certainly giving me something to think about.
This is a fantastic discussion isn't it? D Who would have thought we would be discussing THIS! D
Does anyone know or have any idea what Isa is referring to in the context of ?eating and storing in your houses?? Could this be a reference to any meat that will eventually rot?
? AND I INFORM YOU OF WHAT YOU SHOULD EAT AND WHAT YOU SHOULD STORE IN YOUR HOUSES; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
Ithink that could be a PORTION of what is meant. To me, this verse is telling us that the God's WORD (symbolized by Jesus, son of Mary) will inform us what we should "EAT" , that is, what we should take in both mentally and physically as nourishment for our minds and bodies, and also what we "STORE IN OUR HOUSES", which implies what we KEEP in our MINDS and BODIES.
Remember that the God's "House" is the laws of the God which protect us from outside elements.
So we should make sure that what we bring into our houses (eat) and what we store thier is proper.
With that said, you make good sense because on the physical level, meat becomes bad for us when it stays in the stomach for too long. While it is not prohibited, it makes sense that we should not eat as much of it as many of us do. God's Word and Science should compliment each other, or should be one and the same.
And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
WOW! Good verse! Yes, man makes so many things restricted, but the Gods Truth (His Word, born of the virgin mind) comes to set us free!
Go work Grourself D
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Dear all,
My conclusion
Meat is not forbidden, of any animal, but we should avoid meat from animals that dies without being slaughtered, meat that is not fresh or well preserved, meat that is slaughtered in some ritualistic way, and blood.
We can overlook these limits only if we are forced to, out of necessity.In short, be careful with anything you eat that comes from animals.
Am I way off?
Best regards
Ali Omar
