-=[ Who are Bani Israel? ]=-
-
Salaam bro,
Yes brother 'bani' means 'son' and 'banaat' means 'daughter', you will find several examples for the same. For example 37153 below
37153
37153 Has He chosen daughters over sons?Salaam brother,
after the post of SeekingYou where he says ?Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is not?
You said in response to him that he is right.
It?s a bit confusing, in what is he right? U mean that he is right by his defintion of 'Bani' or something else? I have searched some examples but I?m not yet at a point to give a proper definition, I have to study it a bit more.You added the word "along" in the above highlighted part,
Not me but Pickthall, I said that they are Pickthall translations. Actually I deleted some things from the Pickthall translation, I deleted the things he has in brackets, that is one thing I know for sure that it?s something added by the translator. I?m yet not knowledgeable enough in Arabic and in English to give my own translations. So forgive me if I quote pickthall or some other translator. InsjaAllah in the future I can give my own translations.
I tried to do it as per my best knowledge, if it seems not fitting properly in English, please replace "from of" with "from among" in the above.
Thank You for you effort. But I still have a question. From your translation I understand that you don?t understand it as ??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? In this particular verse I have no objections about this understanding, but if you take for example verse 8719 . How do you understand this verse?
Pickthall translation The Books of Abraham and Moses.
It?s now difficult to follow the same logic as in how you proposed it for 1953. You have to read it then as The Books of Ibrahim. And Moses.
What ?And Moses?? It doesn't make sense to me. It looks to me that we have to understand 8719 as ?The Books of Ibrahim. And the Books of Moses?.
If we use the same logic for 1958 then I think we have to understand it as
??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? instead of ??the seed of Ibrahim. And Israel??.
I hope u understand what I mean, I look forward for your input.
probably i missing some detail.By the way I saw that in your Arabic text the waw has a tashdeed, did u put it yourself or is there website were it has this tasjdeed? If so please give me a link. I use for my research this site www.tanzil.info maybe u know this site all ready. If not, then I really can recommend it to you. It has a very nice search function, u can search on root of the words and also exact word(s). It also has a lot of translations, but the searchfunction is why i'm addicted to that site, really helpfull.
There is only a relation between "...those whom We carried with Noah, and from of the seed of Ibraheem..."
And also in prostrating and weeping.
If u are right and ?waw with tashdeed? is indeed a relating waw then this is very interesting. May I ask you, how u came to this conclusion? Is this just Arabic grammar or is this from studying the verses in TheQuran?
Thanks brother for your effort
Salaam,
Bender -
after the post of SeekingYou where he says ?Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is not?
You said in response to him that he is right.
It?s a bit confusing, in what is he right? U mean that he is right by his defintion of 'Bani' or something else? I have searched some examples but I?m not yet at a point to give a proper definition, I have to study it a bit more.I was saying that there is a difference between 'walad' and 'bani' they both are not same. As I question at the end of my post that I am still in confusion why all the Nabiyyeen were having banis not walad.
Anyways, that is another topic inshaAllah we will discuss it if you like in other thread.
Thank You for you effort. But I still have a question. From your translation I understand that you don?t understand it as ??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? In this particular verse I have no objections about this understanding, but if you take for example verse 8719 . How do you understand this verse?
Pickthall translation The Books of Abraham and Moses.
It?s now difficult to follow the same logic as in how you proposed it for 1953. You have to read it then as The Books of Ibrahim. And Moses.
What ?And Moses?? It doesn't make sense to me. It looks to me that we have to understand 8719 as ?The Books of Ibrahim. And the Books of Moses?.
If we use the same logic for 1958 then I think we have to understand it as
??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? instead of ??the seed of Ibrahim. And Israel??.
I hope u understand what I mean, I look forward for your input.
probably i missing some detail.I agree with you on this.
Firstly you should know that I am not well versed in Arabic grammar but in most of the cases you can understand that aayat by looking at its pattern. Each aayat has its own pattern and design. Lets take for example 459
459
459 O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to Allah and His messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
In the above aayat if you notice 'atee-i' is missing for 'oolil amri minkum' . But this aayat is always wrongly used by adding OBEY to those in authority among you.
The pattern explains it well and in the same way we can understand 1958 as follows
1958
1958 These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping.
It has to be taken as you said ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? because of the pattern of this aayat.
Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel.
By the way I saw that in your Arabic text the waw has a tashdeed, did u put it yourself or is there website were it has this tasjdeed? If so please give me a link. I use for my research this site www.tanzil.info maybe u know this site all ready. If not, then I really can recommend it to you. It has a very nice search function, u can search on root of the words and also exact word(s). It also has a lot of translations, but the searchfunction is why i'm addicted to that site, really helpfull.
Thank you brother for the site www.tanzil.info, I am already know that site. I am using an application called "Quran With Tafseer" vol.1.0 In it is a text with tashdeed. I downloaded it long time back, if you want inshaAllah I will search and let you know where to downloaded it from.
If u are right and ?waw with tashdeed? is indeed a relating waw then this is very interesting. May I ask you, how u came to this conclusion? Is this just Arabic grammar or is this from studying the verses in TheQuran?
I think it has nothing to do with Arabic grammar that is the reason they are not using tashdeed in most of the text of AlQuraan. Allah has shown me this by studying AlQuraan.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
I was saying that there is a difference between 'walad' and 'bani' they both are not same. As I question at the end of my post that I am still in confusion why all the Nabiyyeen were having banis not walad.
Anyways, that is another topic inshaAllah we will discuss it if you like in other thread.
salaam brother
Sure, if you want to open a new topic about this then I?m all ears. Sounds interesting and I haven?t noticed this before. U have to give me a couple of days to read on it a bit.
I will respond insjaAllah tomorrow or Friday on the rest of the post.
-
Firstly you should know that I am not well versed in Arabic grammar but in most of the cases you can understand that aayat by looking at its pattern. Each aayat has its own pattern and design. Lets take for example 459
Salaam brother,
I believe you are right. It would be great if we could classify the patterns and design. I think if we could do this then it makes understanding of the verses really easy. I know that this sounds like reinventing the wheel because Arabic grammar all ready exist, but I have the feeling that some Arabic grammar rules are contradicting the ?grammar? of The Quran.
I agree that in 459 you can?t add ?Obey? to ?those in authority among you?. The only problem is that I still don?t have a general rule how to recognize such patterns. I?m almost sure that there is some general rule for this. May Allah increase our knowledge.
It has to be taken as you said ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? because of the pattern of this aayat.
IF it has to be taken as ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? AND IF the waw with tasjdeed is a relating waw THEN there is a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel).
Thus not only a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham)Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel.
Yes, thank you for pointing this out.
A little detail, in the aya it is said the anbiya on whom Allah showed His favor, I think u meant that too.
As u surely have noticed, from ayaat 1 till 58 we are said to remember certain persons an in aya 58 it is said that they are the ones from the anbiya on whom Allah had showed his favor from the seed of ?.etc.
I think Ibrahim was surely a nabi, he is mentioned in ayaat 1941 and is called a nabi, thus he certainly was a nabi. He is not included in 1958 in ?the seed of Ibrahim? as u pointed out, but I think he is included in ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah?.Now I have a couple of questions
- Can we conclude that Meryem was also a nabi? I think that i read somewhere in The Quran something like there are only male rasoels or only male nabi's. I tried to find this ayaat yesterday but i couldn't find it, maybe u know this ayaat or someone else ofcourse. Or maybe it's a hadith that's still in my head )
- What about Noah? Till yesterday I always thought that he was a nabi, but now I don?t think so. Do you think he is a nabi?
- IF we have to read as ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah? AND not as ?of the seed of Adam and of (THE SEED) of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN who from the anbiya from ayaat 1 till 58 where with Noah on the boat???
I am using an application called "Quran With Tafseer" vol.1.0 In it is a text with tashdeed. I downloaded it long time back, if you want inshaAllah I will search and let you know where to downloaded it from.
I have googled for it but couldn?t find anything. How big is the application? If it?s under 25 mb then u could sent it to me via mail if you want. Or if you or someone else reading this have a copy of The Quran with the ?waw with tasjdeed? in Word then I really like to have it, you can send it to me via mail. Thanks in advance and may Allah bless you.
I think it has nothing to do with Arabic grammar that is the reason they are not using tashdeed in most of the text of AlQuraan. Allah has shown me this by studying AlQuraan.
Brother, I really want to thank you for your observation about ?the waw with tashdeed?. I?m convinced that it has a different meaning then ?the waw without tasjdeed?. I can?t say at this moment what the difference is or if it is indeed a relating waw as you think, but it?s definitely different.
Yesterday I was studying 1958 and as always I was using a lot the search function of the tanzil site. There were 2 ayaats that came across during my searches which where in my eyes strange. Then I remembered your comment about the waw with tasjdeed and I was so convinced that there had to be a tasjdeed on 2 waw?s. I don?t even know why, but my feeling said it had to be, because that was the only explanation I had for this 2 ayaats. Thus I went downstairs and opened my only exemplar of The Quran wich has this tasjdeeds and subhanaAllah there were indeed the 2 tasjdeeds on exactly the waw?s that I had predicted. I still have no clue what this waw with tasjdeed really means or does but if we can find this out then it would be a big help in understanding ayaat?s like 1958. I think that without the tasjdeed on the waw in aya 1958, there is a contradiction or something really weird going on in that ayaat. That?s the reason I always had difficulty with this ayaat. I still don?t understand it good but at least now I know that there is something that I first have to figure out.
-
Salaam brother Bender,
Sorry for keeping at hold for long. May Allah forgive me.
I believe you are right. It would be great if we could classify the patterns and design. I think if we could do this then it makes understanding of the verses really easy. I know that this sounds like reinventing the wheel because Arabic grammar all ready exist, but I have the feeling that some Arabic grammar rules are contradicting the ?grammar? of The Quran.
Patterns and designs of the aayaats can be noticed by comparing with other aayaats. I don't think it is possible for us to do anything in regards to same. I believe that there are many veils in front of our eyes, when Allah decided to show us something from AlQuraan then He will take off that particular veil from our eyes and here that thing can easily be seen sharp clear.
And 'yes' I strongly agree with you that AlQuraan is not 100% go with Arabic grammar. I would like to add that AlQuraan has its own pattern and design PLUS it own Arabic grammar.
I agree that in 459 you can?t add ?Obey? to ?those in authority among you?. The only problem is that I still don?t have a general rule how to recognize such patterns. I?m almost sure that there is some general rule for this. May Allah increase our knowledge.
brother that aayat itself clarifies it. There will be two ways to right this aayat as follows
459
Please note that highlighted 'ati'oo' is missing in the below sentence.
You can see similar this pattern in 3132
3132
'ati'oo' before the word 'alRasool' is missing.
IF it has to be taken as ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? AND IF the waw with tasjdeed is a relating waw THEN there is a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel).
Thus not only a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham)I think it is the other way. There are two different points.
1- Because of the waw with tashdeed it has a relation between 'from among those whom We carried with Noah' AND 'from seed of Ibrahim'.
2- As per the pattern there is only relation between 'from seed of Ibrahim' and 'Israel'.
Thus it is like "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
Yes, thank you for pointing this out.
A little detail, in the aya it is said the anbiya on whom Allah showed His favor, I think u meant that too.
As u surely have noticed, from ayaat 1 till 58 we are said to remember certain persons an in aya 58 it is said that they are the ones from the anbiya on whom Allah had showed his favor from the seed of ?.etc.Yes brother only to anmbiya but as I said earlier
"Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel."1954 is not referring to Adam, Noah, Ibrahim and Israel.
As you said it might be referring to those mentioned from aayat 1-57 in the same sura, i.e.,
"Zachariyya" - 192
"Yahya" - 197, 1912
"Marium" - 1916
"Eisa" - 1934
"Ibrahim" - 1941, 1946
"Is-haaq" - 1949
"Ya'qoob" - 1949
"Moosa" - 1951
"Haroon" - 1953
"Ismail" - 1954
"Idrees" - 1956In addition 1958 starts with "Ulaaika allazeena " referring to the anmbiyas used as above.
I think Ibrahim was surely a nabi, he is mentioned in ayaat 1941 and is called a nabi, thus he certainly was a nabi. He is not included in 1958 in ?the seed of Ibrahim? as u pointed out, but I think he is included in ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah?.
Yes I think you are right that Ibrahim is included in 'from among seed of Adam' AND is used after this, so 'from among those whom We carried with Noah' is not in relation as you said.
Now I have a couple of questions
- Can we conclude that Meryem was also a nabi? I think that i read somewhere in The Quran something like there are only male rasoels or only male nabi's. I tried to find this ayaat yesterday but i couldn't find it, maybe u know this ayaat or someone else ofcourse. Or maybe it's a hadith that's still in my head )
I don't think Marium is Nabi.
You can find the list of Nabis in 683-87, It is declared in 689.
- What about Noah? Till yesterday I always thought that he was a nabi, but now I don?t think so. Do you think he is a nabi?
Yes ofcourse he is a Nabi, but why do you thing so, please let me know. He is also included in the list of 683-87.
- IF we have to read as ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah? AND not as ?of the seed of Adam and of (THE SEED) of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN who from the anbiya from ayaat 1 till 58 where with Noah on the boat???
Interesting point! I cannot answer for this now , may Allah increase us in knowledge.
I have googled for it but couldn?t find anything. How big is the application? If it?s under 25 mb then u could sent it to me via mail if you want. Or if you or someone else reading this have a copy of The Quran with the ?waw with tasjdeed? in Word then I really like to have it, you can send it to me via mail. Thanks in advance and may Allah bless you.
Brother the application size 56.5 MB, inshaAllah I will try to find some site where I can upload it if possible or try to find the downloadable file for you.
Brother, I really want to thank you for your observation about ?the waw with tashdeed?. I?m convinced that it has a different meaning then ?the waw without tasjdeed?. I can?t say at this moment what the difference is or if it is indeed a relating waw as you think, but it?s definitely different.
Praise Allah brother, He is the One who guide us. We have to be thankful to Him for His guidance pr
Yesterday I was studying 1958 and as always I was using a lot the search function of the tanzil site. There were 2 ayaats that came across during my searches which where in my eyes strange. Then I remembered your comment about the waw with tasjdeed and I was so convinced that there had to be a tasjdeed on 2 waw?s. I don?t even know why, but my feeling said it had to be, because that was the only explanation I had for this 2 ayaats. Thus I went downstairs and opened my only exemplar of The Quran wich has this tasjdeeds and subhanaAllah there were indeed the 2 tasjdeeds on exactly the waw?s that I had predicted. I still have no clue what this waw with tasjdeed really means or does but if we can find this out then it would be a big help in understanding ayaat?s like 1958. I think that without the tasjdeed on the waw in aya 1958, there is a contradiction or something really weird going on in that ayaat. That?s the reason I always had difficulty with this ayaat. I still don?t understand it good but at least now I know that there is something that I first have to figure out.
MashaAllah! May Allah be praised. I am really very happy to know your prediction.
I seek knowledge and guidance in Allah for all of us, may Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam brother Bender,
Sorry for keeping at hold for long. May Allah forgive me.
Salaam brother,
No problem with me, I? am also a little bit slow with answering so we are even now handshake
Patterns and designs of the aayaats can be noticed by comparing with other aayaats. I don't think it is possible for us to do anything in regards to same.
I believe that it is certainly possible, it?s only very time consuming.
I believe that there are many veils in front of our eyes, when Allah decided to show us something from AlQuraan then He will take off that particular veil from our eyes and here that thing can easily be seen sharp clear.
Yup it?s always nice revelation when that happens. InsjaAllah Allah will take many many veils from our eyes.
I think it is the other way. There are two different points.
1- Because of the waw with tashdeed it has a relation between 'from among those whom We carried with Noah' AND 'from seed of Ibrahim'.
2- As per the pattern there is only relation between 'from seed of Ibrahim' and 'Israel'.
Thus it is like "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
I don?t know if I understood correctly. Could you please give in the next sentence colors to the parts that you think are relating "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
Please give the same color to the parts you think have a relationship.Yes brother only to anmbiya but as I said earlier
"Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel."1954 is not referring to Adam, Noah, Ibrahim and Israel.
As you said it might be referring to those mentioned from aayat 1-57 in the same sura, i.e.,
"Zachariyya" - 192
"Yahya" - 197, 1912
"Marium" - 1916
"Eisa" - 1934
"Ibrahim" - 1941, 1946
"Is-haaq" - 1949
"Ya'qoob" - 1949
"Moosa" - 1951
"Haroon" - 1953
"Ismail" - 1954
"Idrees" - 1956Hmmm? why do you think Meryem was not a nabi if 1958 is referring to the anbiyas mentioned in the verses 191-57?
Also note verse 2191-92 it is said that she and her son belong to same umma as the persons mentioned in the verses 2148-91 Musa, Haroen, Ibrahim, Ishaaq, Yaqoob, Lut, Nuh, Dawoed, Sulaymen, Ayuub, Ismail, Idries, Zol-Kifl Zonnoen, Zachariya and she who kept her ?fawzj? and her son (I assume Meryem and Isa, who else???).
What umma is meant in 1292? I think the umma of the anbiya.
Maybe this discussion belongs in the other thread, the thread A WOMAN AS A MESSENGER.Yes ofcourse he is a Nabi, but why do you thing so, please let me know. He is also included in the list of 683-87.
Yes you are right, I only did a quick research on him and missed a couple of verses which indicates that he was indeed a nabi. The next day after I wrote that, I all ready saw that I was wrong -, may Allah increase us in knowledge.
Please note also this verse 2537
Nuh was not the only rasuul to his people, there were other rasuuls with him.Also see the following from chapter 37
78
79
80
81
82Could Ibrahim be one of the anbiya and rusoels with Nuh hmm
Brother the application size 56.5 MB, inshaAllah I will try to find some site where I can upload it if possible or try to find the downloadable file for you.
Thanks for offering, but it?s to much trouble for you. I have found this site http//www.searchtruth.com/quran_reading/quran.html
The only problem is that you can?t copy paste from this site. The waw with tasjdeed doesn?t have a tasjdeed on this site but it?s green.Praise Allah brother, He is the One who guide us. We have to be thankful to Him for His guidance pr
Of course Alhamd is only for Allah but you brother get my thanks and my salaam )
MashaAllah! May Allah be praised. I am really very happy to know your prediction. D
I have a really bad memory, I don't remember the ayaats anymore (
Another question Do you think Israel was a person with Nuh on the boat or Israel were the ones with Nuh on the boat?
I myself think that he was not a person but the people with Nuh on the boat.If I understand correct then this part of 1958 ??the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel?
Can be read as
??the seed of Adam and ISRAEL, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel? If we replace ?those whom We carried with Noah? with ?Israel?. This makes sense to me and is not contradicting 172-3I hope you understand why I have replaced "Israel" with ?those whom We carried with Noah?. IF according to 172-3 "Bani Israel" are "The seed of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN "Israel" must be "those whom We carried with Noah"
The only ?problem? left is ayaat 393
It looks like Israel is in this ayaat a person, but I think it?s is here also ?those whom we carried with Nuh? only it is used as a collective (in the grammar I mean), and that?s why in my opinion it looks like it is a person.What do you think? If in Arabic Quran a collective is used the same way as a singular then I think we have solved the problem. And there for ?Israel? is NOT Jacob but Those who were with Nuh on the boat AND ?Bani Israel? are not the Jews but all the people of the world. And this makes in my opinion really sense if we read all the ayaats were Bani Israel are mentioned in The Quran.
Please correct me were you feel that I' am wrong.
Thanks for your time again brother, may Allah increase our knowledge and lead us to the siraat almustakeem.
salaam,
Bender -
Peace everyone!
My understanding
Israel is Jacob, this is something you have to read the previous scripture to find out!
The children of Israel are the seed of Jacob/Israel (e.g 12 tribes of israel + joseph's 2 children=adopted by Jacob/Israel) (I don't know the stance of those who "converted" with the children of Israel at their Exodus from Egypt and after that (e.g Pharaoh's wife / Ruth)
The term ""JEW" was developed AFTER the babylonian exile of the jews (the 12 tribes of Israel were wiped out except Judah (Hebrew Yahuda) Hence, the decendents became called "Yahudim" = JewsMay the Lord God increase us in Knowledge & wisdom & Guidance!
Blessed be the Lord God! -
Peace everyone!
My understanding
Israel is Jacob, this is something you have to read the previous scripture to find out!
The children of Israel are the seed of Jacob/Israel (e.g 12 tribes of israel + joseph's 2 children=adopted by Jacob/Israel) (I don't know the stance of those who "converted" with the children of Israel at their Exodus from Egypt and after that (e.g Pharaoh's wife / Ruth)
The term ""JEW" was developed AFTER the babylonian exile of the jews (the 12 tribes of Israel were wiped out except Judah (Hebrew Yahuda) Hence, the decendents became called "Yahudim" = JewsMay the Lord God increase us in Knowledge & wisdom & Guidance!
Blessed be the Lord God!Salaam Youssef4342,
That is what I also thought for a long time. That is what I learned from the hadiths and I was very happy when I discovered that Youssef saw in his dream 11 kawkaban. I thought that was the proof that Israel was Jacob because the 11 kawkaban where his brothers thus Jacob must have 12 sons and that was equal to the 12 tribes.
The Jacob=Israel theory is nice and it looks almost waterproof but it?s just a theory which is based on sources outside The Quran. This is indeed a big danger and a lesson for all of us to not make assumptions from something else then The Quran, they may look very nice but they are false according to The Quran.
I think 172-3 is very clear of who are Bani Israel, please read the opening post of MmKhan. The only problem I had with 172-3 was 1958, because Israel was mentioned in the same verse with those who were with Nuh on the boat. But 1958 is now getting more and more clear for me alhamdoellillah. I am waiting for a reply from MmKhan or someone else to correct me were I might be wrong in my last post about 1958.
-
Salam Bender!
I think the verse you're reffering to simply means, those who carried with Noah (Period). AND abraham... etc.
Thus God is simply putting them and their lineage in the spotlight as being favoured/picked
Peace, and may the Lord God grant us wisdom to understand in all things pr
Blessed is God, knower of all secretes and declarations! -
Salaaman Bender,
No problem with me, I? am also a little bit slow with answering so we are even now handshake
Thanks handshake this is ofcourse an advantage to me )
I believe that it is certainly possible, it?s only very time consuming.
Yes I think the same about patterns and designs of AlQuraan's aayaats. But I think, it is necessary without it, it is not possible to get to the correct understanding.
I don?t know if I understood correctly. Could you please give in the next sentence colors to the parts that you think are relating "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
Please give the same color to the parts you think have a relationship.I got confuse in 1958, specially in "....wa min zurriyati Ibraheema wa Israeela...." I think we are taking it wrong brother because
3132
3132 And obey Allah and the messenger so that you may obtain mercy.This does not mean "obey Allah and OBEY the messenger", because when Allah wanted to say so, He said it.
592
592 And obey Allah and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of Our messenger to deliver clearly.So, when He said "Israeel" in 1958 the simply means "Israeel" and does not mean "seed of Israeel" as per the above said. And I am waiting to understand 8719 from Allah.
Hmmm? why do you think Meryem was not a nabi if 1958 is referring to the anbiyas mentioned in the verses 191-57?
Only male are send as Rasools and I think all nabis are also male as per the list given in 683-87 and said that they all were Nabiyeen in 689.
Also note verse 2191-92 it is said that she and her son belong to same umma as the persons mentioned in the verses 2148-91 Musa, Haroen, Ibrahim, Ishaaq, Yaqoob, Lut, Nuh, Dawoed, Sulaymen, Ayuub, Ismail, Idries, Zol-Kifl Zonnoen, Zachariya and she who kept her ?fawzj? and her son (I assume Meryem and Isa, who else???).
What umma is meant in 1292? I think the umma of the anbiya.
Maybe this discussion belongs in the other thread, the thread A WOMAN AS A MESSENGER.As per my understanding the word "Umma(t)" means people of same understanding, lets say there are 10 men in a group but 3 got the same understanding, other 2 are same and rest of them are of same understanding, that means there are three ummats, one of 2 people, other is of 3 and another of 5 people. This is how I understand the word umma.
Please note also this verse 2537
Nuh was not the only rasuul to his people, there were other rasuuls with him.Also see the following from chapter 37
78
79
80
81
82Could Ibrahim be one of the anbiya and rusoels with Nuh hmm
Not only people of Noah but also 'Aad, Thamood, Looth, Ashaabul Aiyka disbelieved messengers.
26105
26123
26141
26160
26176I don't know about Ibraheem being one of Noah's group, still has to get the correct understanding of the word "Shi'aa" in 3783.
Another question Do you think Israel was a person with Nuh on the boat or Israel were the ones with Nuh on the boat?
I myself think that he was not a person but the people with Nuh on the boat.If I understand correct then this part of 1958 ??the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel?
Can be read as
??the seed of Adam and ISRAEL, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel? If we replace ?those whom We carried with Noah? with ?Israel?. This makes sense to me and is not contradicting 172-3I hope you understand why I have replaced "Israel" with ?those whom We carried with Noah?. IF according to 172-3 "Bani Israel" are "The seed of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN "Israel" must be "those whom We carried with Noah"
The only ?problem? left is ayaat 393
It looks like Israel is in this ayaat a person, but I think it?s is here also ?those whom we carried with Nuh? only it is used as a collective (in the grammar I mean), and that?s why in my opinion it looks like it is a person.Israeel is a person. He is mentioned in AlQuraan only twice in 393 and 1958.
What do you think? If in Arabic Quran a collective is used the same way as a singular then I think we have solved the problem. And there for ?Israel? is NOT Jacob but Those who were with Nuh on the boat AND ?Bani Israel? are not the Jews but all the people of the world. And this makes in my opinion really sense if we read all the ayaats were Bani Israel are mentioned in The Quran.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.""NafsiHI" is the keyword in 393 "HI" always refers to masculine if it would have "HA" instead, then it may refer to feminine or a group.
May Allah increase us in knowledge guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman Bender,
Thanks handshake this is ofcourse an advantage to me
Salaam brother,
I got confuse in 1958, specially in "....wa min zurriyati Ibraheema wa Israeela...." I think we are taking it wrong brother because
3132
3132 And obey Allah and the messenger so that you may obtain mercy.This does not mean "obey Allah and OBEY the messenger", because when Allah wanted to say so, He said it.
592
592 And obey Allah and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of Our messenger to deliver clearly.So, when He said "Israeel" in 1958 the simply means "Israeel" and does not mean "seed of Israeel" as per the above said. And I am waiting to understand 8719 from Allah.
I have a ?new? understanding for 1958, insjaAllah I will post this ?new? understanding in the next post, I like first to hear from you what you think about my next questions.
You showed me 3132 and 592, and I have to agree for the moment with your reasoning. But I have a question about verse 56. I really like to know how you do your washing for the sallaat. ? Do you wash your arms to the elbows or not? If you do indeed wash you arms to the elbows, can you explain to me what the difference is with the examples you gave me (3132 and 592). And also how do we have to interpret verses like ? There are more examples, but for the moment I really like to know how you read such verses.
By the way, look at this verse 333 Here Allah uses the same logic as you pointed out in 3132 and 592.
Only male are send as Rasools and I think all nabis are also male as per the list given in 683-87 and said that they all were Nabiyeen in 689.
But the list of nabi?s mentioned in 683-87 is not complete, for example Mohammed and Idries are missing, they were also nabi?s but not mentioned in 683-87.
If you can proof that a rasool is by default a nabi then you are right (or an straightforward proof). If not then I think we can?t take Meryem out of the list of the nabi?s because of 191-58.As per my understanding the word "Umma(t)" means people of same understanding, lets say there are 10 men in a group but 3 got the same understanding, other 2 are same and rest of them are of same understanding, that means there are three ummats, one of 2 people, other is of 3 and another of 5 people. This is how I understand the word umma.
I had as definition a group of people who have something in common, not especially "same understanding". I think your definition is more precise, thanks
Not only people of Noah but also 'Aad, Thamood, Looth, Ashaabul Aiyka disbelieved messengers.
26105
26123
26141
26160
26176I don't know about Ibraheem being one of Noah's group, still has to get the correct understanding of the word "Shi'aa" in 3783.
a study for next time insjaAllah
Israeel is a person. He is mentioned in AlQuraan only twice in 393 and 1958.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.""NafsiHI" is the keyword in 393 "HI" always refers to masculine if it would have "HA" instead, then it may refer to feminine or a group.
Ok thanks for clarifying this to me, I have to agree with this.
But what is the relationship between Israel and Bani Israel?
From 172-3 we know Bani Israel = Thurrijati of those who were carried with Nuh (thus more then 1 person who where with Nuh on the boat)
From 1958 and 393 we know Israel = a person (1 person)
I find it very hard to see some logic in this. If you have an idea how we can understand this then please share, I find it very confusing.May Allah increase our knowledge
Salaam brotherBy the way. I hope I?m not bothering you with all of this. For me it?s like this 1860 InsjaAllah that moment will come soon and I can feel like this muscle
-
I have a ?new? understanding for 1958, insjaAllah I will post this ?new? understanding in the next post, I like first to hear from you what you think about my next questions.
Salaaman brother,
I would love to know you 'new' understanding.
You showed me 3132 and 592, and I have to agree for the moment with your reasoning. But I have a question about verse 56. I really like to know how you do your washing for the sallaat. ? Do you wash your arms to the elbows or not? If you do indeed wash you arms to the elbows, can you explain to me what the difference is with the examples you gave me (3132 and 592). And also how do we have to interpret verses like ? There are more examples, but for the moment I really like to know how you read such verses.
You caught me there... )
I was suppose to quote you 56 after getting your reply of my previous post, anyway, I am totally off on this now, I don't have any answer, just waiting for Allah's clarification.
Yes you are right brother, there are many more such examples.
By the way, look at this verse 333 Here Allah uses the same logic as you pointed out in 3132 and 592.
Correct! This is how I think there is a difference between these patterns. There is surely some reason behind using such way. InshaAllah, Allah will show us if He only wills.
But the list of nabi?s mentioned in 683-87 is not complete, for example Mohammed and Idries are missing, they were also nabi?s but not mentioned in 683-87.
Thank you brother, I agree with you. In fact I was having something in my mind about Mohammed being not mentioned in that list, but about Idrees... -\
One thing I wanted to add here is who are mentioned in 683-87 are all "Al Nabiyeen" and Idrees in 1956 is just a "Nabi" without "Al". What do you think on this?
If you can proof that a rasool is by default a nabi then you are right (or an straightforward proof). If not then I think we can?t take Meryem out of the list of the nabi?s because of 191-58.
Rasool and Nabi are not same and I don't believe that Rasool is by default a Nabi. I am taking out Maryam from the list of 191-57 because 1958 also talks about Nabiyeen and Israeel is also mentioned in the list, that means he is also a Nabi? Don't have any idea. He might be a Nabi as mentioned in 1958. I would like to know your view on this.
Ok thanks for clarifying this to me, I have to agree with this.
But what is the relationship between Israel and Bani Israel?
From 172-3 we know Bani Israel = Thurrijati of those who were carried with Nuh (thus more then 1 person who where with Nuh on the boat)
From 1958 and 393 we know Israel = a person (1 person)
I find it very hard to see some logic in this. If you have an idea how we can understand this then please share, I find it very confusing.I understand it as follows
Israeel = 1 person
Israeel's sons = Bani Israeel
Noah came to Bani Israeel and the ones who believed with Noah came with him on the ship made by Noah, others died in the flood.
People carried on ship are Bani Israeel and their children called as zurriyat of people who where carried on the ship.
But I don't have any proof of Israeel came before Noah (
By the way. I hope I?m not bothering you with all of this. For me it?s like this 1860 ) InsjaAllah that moment will come soon and I can feel like this muscle
No way brother, please don't think so, I am learning a lot from you. BTW, your example of 1860 is very nice yes
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman brother,
I would love to know you 'new' understanding.
Salaam brother,
This is my new understanding.
I think we are focusing on the wrong word. Why should Allah say the nabiyien from the seed of Adam and the nabiyien from the seed of Ibrahim etc. Are the nabiyien of the seed of Ibrahim not all ready included in the nabiyien from the seed of Adam? I think 1958 is not talking about the nabiyien but about the ones who Allah favored.
For the moment I still don?t know how to split this verse in groups. Do we have to split the groups by the word ?WA? or do we have to split the groups by the words ?MIN and WAMIMAN?
If we split the groups by ?MIN an WAMIMAN? then we have to read it like this.A
If we have to split the groups by ?WA? then we have to read it like this.
BI hope you understand what I mean.
Correct! This is how I think there is a difference between these patterns. There is surely some reason behind using such way. InshaAllah, Allah will show us if He only wills.
I believe that if we have to read 1958 as A (see above) then it?s ?seed of Israel? and if we have to read it as B (see above) then it?s simply ?Israel?.
If we can identify all the ayaats like 333 and 592 then we can learn the wisdom behind this InsjaAllah and thus learn how we have to read ayaats like 1958 (?Israel? OR ?seed of Israel?).
Thank you brother, I agree with you. In fact I was having something in my mind about Mohammed being not mentioned in that list, but about Idrees... -\
One thing I wanted to add here is who are mentioned in 683-87 are all "Al Nabiyeen" and Idrees in 1956 is just a "Nabi" without "Al". What do you think on this?
hmmm, i think the other way around. I think there is only one Al Nabi and the rest are Nabi without Al. Whom of this nabiyien is The Nabi, I don?t know. Maybe I?m wrong on this, but I couldn?t find an aya were one of the nabiens is called Al Nabi.
The Nabi is also The Rasool I believe, please read 7157
We can find to who this Al Rasoel - Al Nabi is referring in The Taurat and in The Indjiel.
Maybe, maybe (I?m not sure about this), it?s prophet and rasoel Ibrahim peace be upon him. Please read 368 .
You can read that ayaat in two ways I think. To who is ?wahatha Al Nabi? referring? To Ibrahim or to some else? If someone else then who? please correct me if you think that I?m wrong.Rasool and Nabi are not same and I don't believe that Rasool is by default a Nabi. I am taking out Maryam from the list of 191-57 because 1958 also talks about Nabiyeen and Israeel is also mentioned in the list, that means he is also a Nabi? Don't have any idea. He might be a Nabi as mentioned in 1958. I would like to know your view on this.
yes I also believe that rasoel and nabi are 2 different "things", but if an rasool is by default an nabi or vice versa i don't know.
As said above I think that 1958 is about the ones Allah favored not about nabiyien. Thus I believe that Meryem was one of the nabiyien, but Israel I don?t know. Maybe he was, maybe not. I believe he was certainly one of the favored ones from the ones Allah guided and/or chose.
I understand it as follows
Israeel = 1 person
Israeel's sons = Bani Israeel
Noah came to Bani Israeel and the ones who believed with Noah came with him on the ship made by Noah, others died in the flood.
People carried on ship are Bani Israeel and their children called as zurriyat of people who where carried on the ship.
But I don't have any proof of Israeel came before Noah (
Thank you, strangely enough I have never thought in such way. For the moment I think it makes sense, I have to sleep over it a couple of days -)
No way brother, please don't think so, I am learning a lot from you. BTW, your example of 1860 is very nice yes
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. KhanOk thank you, I have even learned more from you. The Al Nabi "thing" mentioned above I have learned it from one of your older topics about Al Rasoel (but shhhhhhhhhht don?t tell).
Salaam and may Allah increase our knowledge.
ps. i have a strange feeling that I'm misunderstanding 172-3
-
I think we are focusing on the wrong word. Why should Allah say the nabiyien from the seed of Adam and the nabiyien from the seed of Ibrahim etc. Are the nabiyien of the seed of Ibrahim not all ready included in the nabiyien from the seed of Adam? I think 1958 is not talking about the nabiyien but about the ones who Allah favored.
Salaaman brother,
I agree with you totally.
ps. i have a strange feeling that I'm misunderstanding 172-3 D
My new understanding about 172-3.
172 and 173 are talking separately they are not linked.
172
172 And We gave Musa the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."Then it is being said to zurriyat of those who were carried with Noah that he was a thankful/appreciative person.
173
173 Zurriyat of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.If you don't take it like this, then Israel has to be before Noah which is not possible.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."That means Israel was available at the time of AlTauraat.
365
365 "O people of the Book, why do you debate regarding Ibraheem when the Tauraat and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not comprehend?"Hope you understand what I am trying to say.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman brother,
I agree with you totally.
My new understanding about 172-3.
172 and 173 are talking separately they are not linked.
172
172 And We gave Musa the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."Then it is being said to zurriyat of those who were carried with Noah that he was a thankful/appreciative person.
173
173 Zurriyat of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.Salaam Mohammed,
I understand, but in this way it looks like a lost ayaat, it looks like this ayaat doesn?t belong there, while I believe that every sentence and every ayaat in the Quran is linked in some way to the previous and the next sentence/ayaat.
If you don't take it like this, then Israel has to be before Noah which is not possible.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."That means Israel was available at the time of AlTauraat.
365
365 "O people of the Book, why do you debate regarding Ibraheem when the Tauraat and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not comprehend?"Hope you understand what I am trying to say.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. KhanI understand this differently.
I think not Israel was at the moment when the Tauraat was sent down, but Bani Israel.
Thus I see it like this.
First Adam, then somewhere after Adam but before the Tauraat Israel was born. Israel had no book or a book without any forbidden food. Thus for Israel it was allowed to eat everything but for some reason he forbade for himself some food. Then Israel died but his children understood that what their Father forbade for himself was also forbidden for them. Then after some time The Tauraat was sent down, and in The Tauraat there were rules of what is forbidden and what not of the food.
Thus All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."I think if you have to understand it like you did then there would have been something like this All the food was made lawful to Israel and his children except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
may Allah increase us in knowledge
-
I understand, but in this way it looks like a lost ayaat, it looks like this ayaat doesn?t belong there, while I believe that every sentence and every ayaat in the Quran is linked in some way to the previous and the next sentence/ayaat.
Salaaman brother,
I agree, but still I remember there were aayats that has no relation with the previous or next aayat. InshaAllah, if I find any I will post it here.
I understand this differently.
I think not Israel was at the moment when the Tauraat was sent down, but Bani Israel.
Thus I see it like this.
First Adam, then somewhere after Adam but before the Tauraat Israel was born. Israel had no book or a book without any forbidden food. Thus for Israel it was allowed to eat everything but for some reason he forbade for himself some food. Then Israel died but his children understood that what their Father forbade for himself was also forbidden for them. Then after some time The Tauraat was sent down, and in The Tauraat there were rules of what is forbidden and what not of the food.
Thus All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."Interesting! MashaAllah, I think it makes lot of sense. At the moment I agree with you on this. ) And thank you for sharing your understand with us brother, may Allah reward you the best.
I think if you have to understand it like you did then there would have been something like this All the food was made lawful to Israel and his children except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
I got that... May Allah forgive our mistakes and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan
-
Benu Israa'il are Gypsy (or. Gypty from el-gypty, meaning Egyptian). They are not one nation as their ancestors, but from different nations, nomadic people came to Egypt and settled there, during Hittite period. Israa'il means "wandering, traveling", and they were their ancestors, not one man. Progeny of Israa'il are Benu Israa'il.
They landed with NooH after Flood in Mediterranean, then started to look for a land to settle. They lost their original land due to Flood. They were of high educated civilization (ie. Atlantean), and due to their potential Allah gave them a land to settle, after pharaoh (Akhanaton). Some of them settled before and didn't come to Egypt (called MiSr in that time).
They are from NooH's qawm (commune), and Israa'il were most "criticized" (lowest) from that commune (1127). They were not relatives to NooH, but later on they made a progeny with Ibrahim's offspring (195, and got themselves a pedigree.