Alcohol
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Dear Asana,
As much as I try to avoid this thread, I find that I end up comming back to say the same things...
You mean when God says there is sin in some things(2219...590) it means that we can ignore what God says by takeing things in our own hands to see whether we?re capable in handling it or not. Is that why you?re implying?!
You are getting close. It means that God is pointing out the pitfalls in certain things (like our money and children) and we as believers in the word of God take heed of these warnings and act accordingly (we would beware of spending too much time with our kids and miss the remeberance of God, or we would be careful not to fall into the trap of loving money as an object, and that we would beware of the pitfalls of alcohol and gambling that could distract us from the rememberance of God and cause strife).
This is how a believer would behave with the information God has given...
Rather than working with these guidelines, your approach is to introduce new "Asnana" laws that throw the baby out with the bath water...
In your opinion according to your statement how should we suppose avoid Satan?
It looks like according to you one can drink or gamble but at the same time can remember God?It looks like you take the verse conditionally if only one can behave moderately not in excess while God command us to avoid them no matter what kind of logic we come up with it?.There is no "avoid them" - it is "avoid him". How do we avoid Satan? By simply understanding the objective behind his tactics and not falling for them. The objective of Satan with our father Adam and his mate was to not to get them to "eat from the tree" but to get them "expelled from the paradise" which he acheived using the tool of the tree.
Shouldn't God's commands to be taken as ?heard and obeyed? not challenging Him by wishfully thinking that we can handle things?.?Those who challenge God by thinking that they can make decision by being in control take God?s commands in vain?.And that?s exactly why we are here on this earth to decide who is our Master, our ego/Satan or God,who is in control,us or God.
The only challenge I see is people trying to forbid what God has made lawful by a twisting of words and verses...How do you see yourself "hearing & obeying" when you are forcing meaning to God's words other than what He has said?
Those who think that they can control themselves by drinking alcohol moderately or gambling a little bit not only violate God?s command by not avoiding them but also causeing that God takes away His supports , leaving them in their wishful thought of controlling which means sending them astray.
a) there is no command to "avoid them", but "avoid him". you may keep repeating this false translation you are using thousands of times...it will not make it come true. b) who said believers would drink only in "moderation"? a believer can drink and become intoxicated and still be a believer (see 443).
BTW are you saying that the wine in Paradise is polluted too as on earth where God says according to you there is harm in them? I hope you can see the fallacy of your logic here.
When did wine/khamr become polluted? you seem to be very creative in your use of words on this topic. Khamr itself has no sin/ithm, but it is the missuse of khamr, in accordance with Satan's whispering, that can lead to the sin/ithm. The khamr in paradise is the same as that on earth (with the exception that it does not cause a headache/hangover). What is missing? Obviously Satan is the missing element in paradise, making the alcohol risk free and in no need of regulation/restriction, which goes to clarify that it is Satan that is the problem and needs to be avoided and not the alcohol/khamr.
A believer commit sin too?Are you disputing that it?s possible a believer miss his/her Salat too and yet to be called a believer?
So in this new understanding you are sharing, a person can be in a state of sin and maintain his/her believer status while in that state? So while a person is commiting adultry, theft, etc. they are still believers during such acts? If this is the case, then why do you think God asks people who commit sins to repent and seek His forgiveness if they are, according to you, still in a state that acknowledges them as "believers" while carrying out such acts? The more you try to twist 443, the more messy things become.
Glory be to God that asks a drunken by not committing second sin by observing Salat where he/she can blasphemies too or hurt oneself through the motions of prayer etc?a believer never miss her/his prayer?.Once missed it, it can?t be substituted again?And isn?t a punishment from God by not making an exist to the drunken to substitute the missing Salat/s? Are you still would like to insist on that a drunken hasn?t committed a sin? Wow.
You talk of Salat as the sunnis do - can't be substituted, etc. failing to realize that Salat is a "tool" granted to help the believers on the constant rememberance of God and is not an obligation that they will be penalized for missing like some classroom event!
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Peace dudes,
This topic is very interesting one. How come noone ever argues about the meat of pig, but anytime when the alcool comes up, the debate heats?
The reason is divinely simple. The meat of pig is clearly forbidden in the Scripture.
Whereas the alcohol..........is not.
If it's not, then how much to drink? - The answer is balance.
And you can drink it by remembering GOD.
Let's check this verse 443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying...
This implies something.......you may drink until you know what you're saying, and that's enabled only via Balanced consumation of alcool.
Personally, have had some stomach issues and cannot consume it for the moment, but the red wine my friends, that's a a beautiful taste for me. The beer is ok, if you mix is with a Sprite.
So no need for extremes, any object may be the cause of not remembering GOD.
Hence the forms are the test. Check beyond them, and you'll sense who is directing all existence.
Praise be to GOD. The Lord of me and you, and everything in between.
Peace,
R. -
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/012.%20Halalan%20Tayyeban/01.%202.168.gif 2168
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/012.%20Halalan%20Tayyeban/09.%207.157.gif 7157
Where does Intoxicants/hard drinks fall?
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That is the debate good sir. This is actually a really complex topic, or is it? That is my question. Because ALLAH does not explicitly says anything, he states the statistics (ithm>naf) and asks who will then mind.
So the question is, who will mind?
There is no question that hard intoxication is harmful. You do not publicly go to the toilet, you do not publicly have sex, then why publicly stumble around drunk?
However for all of these is a time and place, toilets exist, marriages exist, then surely there is a place for sakara/khamr.
We must however avoid the fallacy of equivocation, something I see coming up time and time again. Where ALLAH has delineated X to be relative to Y via Z, do not equate X with Y and leave out Z. This is also a tool of satan and I can clearly see why it says avoid him. Even when arguing for what you believe to be righteous, if you so fall to this fallacy you have fallen for his tricks. Why run away from satan's booby trap to fall into another one?
May God guide!
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Peace dudes,
This topic is very interesting one. How come noone ever argues about the meat of pig, but anytime when the alcool comes up, the debate heats?
The reason is divinely simple. The meat of pig is clearly forbidden in the Scripture.
Whereas the alcohol..........is not.
If it's not, then how much to drink? - The answer is balance.
And you can drink it by remembering GOD.
Let's check this verse 443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying...
This implies something.......you may drink until you know what you're saying, and that's enabled only via Balanced consumation of alcool.
Personally, have had some stomach issues and cannot consume it for the moment, but the red wine my friends, that's a a beautiful taste for me. The beer is ok, if you mix is with a Sprite.
So no need for extremes, any object may be the cause of not remembering GOD.
Hence the forms are the test. Check beyond them, and you'll sense who is directing all existence.
Praise be to GOD. The Lord of me and you, and everything in between.
Peace,
R.bravo
We think alike on this issue...except in mixing beer with Sprite! P That sounds like alcohol abuse--a waste of beer!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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As much as I would like to see Alcohol forbidden since all I could think of is the negative aspects and not the positive(if there is any) it would be unwise to say that Alcohol is forbidden since the Quran does not give a clear answer in regards to its prohibition.
First Verse in the Quran dealing with Intoxicants and Gambling....
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think.
Nothing here in this verse says that Alcohol (an intoxicant) is forbidden but rather a view on of the effects of intoxicants and gambling. The View The harm is greater than its benefits.
Second verse
443 O you who acknowledge, do not come near the contact prayer while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or one of you come from the bathroom, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall seek clean soil and wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving. - Consuming intoxicants(like alcohol) is a matter of choice and not necessarily negate a person from being a believer.
Third and Fourth Verse
590 O you who acknowledge, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. (you shall avoid him not THEM)
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you then desist?
The phrase "Will you then desist???" is a strange one since to me if something was clearly forbidden in the Quran why would God then say "Will you then desist???" This was the first indication to me that God was making a recommendation that it would be better to abstain or to be careful when dealing with such devices (intoxicants , gambling etc) since if you or I are not careful we can fall prey to devil since these tools can be used as means for regression from the Way. If we look back at Sura 2219 this becomes more clearer
Read Again...
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "In them is great harm, and a benefit for people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." They ask you how much are they to give, say, "The excess." Thus, God clarifies for you the signs that you may think. ( The reason why Satan can use these tools is because these tools make us most venerable. For example when we are drunk we cannot fully focus when the time is necessary. )
Basically all I see is recommendation from God to abstain from such devices (or to be careful when dealing with them). God is quite clear in highlighting that intoxicants does more harm than good. It would be wise if we abstain from such devices all together rather than toy with them since they're harm outweigh the benefits.
Again I would love to see a clear ban on these products and devices since they lack little or no value to the body , and society. However it would be wrong for me to say that such devices are forbidden since there is not a clear prohibition in the Quran.
Peace,
Kevin.
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Let's focus on 2219 again ...And they ask you how much they are to give, say ?The excess.?
If you give the excess, what remains? - The Balance.
...It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
Peace, and Praise be to GOD. The Reason of existence.
R.
P.S. Abdul-Hadi, you're right
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In Lighter Vein
The Muslims translate the word Al Camry in Chapter 2 Verse 219 as "Alcohol" and some say intoxicants". Although the word "Haram" or "forbidden" is not mentioned in any of the verses in the Quran when the word Al Camry appears they say it is "forbidden" to consume "Alcohol". The word Camry is used to refer to wine for inhabitants of Paradise 4715.
It seems that Alcohol is an Arabic word. Though used extensively in the western world, the word came from Arabia.
For the sunnis and shi'ite the word Al Cohol is just like Al Rahman or Al Raheem. It?s perfectly possible that they think Al Cohol could also be God?s name or attribute.
Therefore it would be forbidden to consume God.Its funny that in USA Toyota Camry cars are the best selling. Perhaps it?s a correlation to the number of drug abusers in USA. Perhaps drug/intoxicant/Al Cohol dealers all drive Toyota Camry?s.
http//www.aididsafar.com/humor.html
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{2421}
O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure but Allah doth purify whom He pleases and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).Whatever happens we must be aware of this!
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handshake
http//www.youtube.com/user/WhereIsTruth?gl=CA&hl=en#p/u/148/lcIfrVXPOUQ
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It's clear -- beware of drunkenness and gambling which people are out to take advantage.
Heavenly is clear water, milk, deliciously fine wine, pure honey, all kinds of fruits...
4715 likeness the garden the one promised the righteous in it rivers from water not polluted and rivers from milk not change it's taste and rivers from inebriant/wine delicious to the drinkers and rivers from honey pure and for them in it from every the fruits and forgiveness from their Lord unlike who he abides forever in the fire and they given drink water boiling so it cuts to pieces their guts
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In Lighter Vein
The Muslims translate the word Al Camry in Chapter 2 Verse 219 as "Alcohol" and some say intoxicants". Although the word "Haram" or "forbidden" is not mentioned in any of the verses in the Quran when the word Al Camry appears they say it is "forbidden" to consume "Alcohol". The word Camry is used to refer to wine for inhabitants of Paradise 4715.
It seems that Alcohol is an Arabic word. Though used extensively in the western world, the word came from Arabia.
For the sunnis and shi'ite the word Al Cohol is just like Al Rahman or Al Raheem. It?s perfectly possible that they think Al Cohol could also be God?s name or attribute.
Therefore it would be forbidden to consume God.Its funny that in USA Toyota Camry cars are the best selling. Perhaps it?s a correlation to the number of drug abusers in USA. Perhaps drug/intoxicant/Al Cohol dealers all drive Toyota Camry?s.
http//www.aididsafar.com/humor.html
rotfl rotfl rotfl
