Imams/Clergy in Quran Alone????
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Wow.... Based on the response and the tone of it, I think I used the wrong language. Clergy, Imam, etc. I appreciate everyones responses. I also understand the apprehension of giving someone authority to do something religiously. However, along the idea of a spokesperson and religious coordinator I think there really needs to be some sort of leader. No group forms a well organized group with out some sort of leadership. Leadership doesn't mean "You will do what I say". Often leadership says "Where do we want to go?" then listens to those answers and then helps organize people to make it operational and ultimately succeed.
For example, we want our children educated, we need someone to organize schooling, because we may not have the time nor enough understanding to guide learning effectively. As the example mentioned above about science... We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
I appreciate your feedback and these are just my thoughts....
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Salaam JewishDude,
For example, we want our children educated, we need someone to organize schooling, because we may not have the time nor enough understanding to guide learning effectively. As the example mentioned above about science... We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
I appreciate your feedback and these are just my thoughts....
Let me add my thoughts.
The above highlighted part is a problem. Example given above is good for 'worldly education' but not to a guidance towards Allah. At the moments I thought of the following reasons
They add their own personal understanding while teaches which could be wrong.
Allah knows of a student of AlQuraan and gives him/her 'what and when' is needed, getting something earlier may lead the student go astray because of not having proper basics. Allah teaches us step-by-step in a very powerful manner.
Allah's guidance is the 'only true' guidance, other's may not.
Most of other teacher or leaders they make you closer to themselves and their ideology and their group in many ways, but they never think of making you closer to Allah.
Please look at the following aayaats in support of my understanding
73
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any supporters. Little do you remember!548
548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if Allah had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To Allah you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salam and Peace!
Wow.... Based on the response and the tone of it, I think I used the wrong language. Clergy, Imam, etc. I appreciate everyones responses. I also understand the apprehension of giving someone authority to do something religiously. However, along the idea of a spokesperson and religious coordinator I think there really needs to be some sort of leader. No group forms a well organized group with out some sort of leadership. Leadership doesn't mean "You will do what I say". Often leadership says "Where do we want to go?" then listens to those answers and then helps organize people to make it operational and ultimately succeed.
For example, we want our children educated, we need someone to organize schooling, because we may not have the time nor enough understanding to guide learning effectively. As the example mentioned above about science... We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
I appreciate your feedback and these are just my thoughts....
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peacePeople often ask, "Institutions are more important or persons are more important?"
Then they answer, "Institutions are more important, and we should always struggle to make them stronger."But, according to my understanding of Al-Quran,----persons are more important than the institutions, because it is the persons who establish and run he institutions. If persons are dishonest and liars, then institutions only become a source of fulfilling their vested interests.
Allah, in His Exalted Quran, never commands us to strengthen the institutions, rather He commands us to fear Allah, and reform and purify ourselves and become good to others.
-----"Allah loves those who purify themselves." (910
So, a God-fearing person, who purifies himself, and as a reward of it, Allah loves him,-----is the best person to run an institution and serve the people. Such a person could be a ruler or an officer.
But we should remember, in Islam, the rulers and officers, are nothing but servants of the common people.
And people, who are served, has all the right to take them to accountability.What comes out finally, is that the rulers and officers are nothing but servants, organizers or care-takers of the community.
On the other hand the momineen (people) of the community who are served, are commnaded to stand with the (God-fearing) care-takers, and extend their full cooperations to their servants.
-----"O you who believe, fear Allah, and be with those who are true." (9119)
Indeed, these true people could be the servants, friends and other people of the community.
And when it comes to the rulers (servants of the community), then this act of cooperation with those true rulers is so important that it is not only an act of standing by them, but it is also a matter of obedience.-----"O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those who are in authority (Oolil Umr that is true care-takers of the community) among you. Then if you have a dispute concerning any matter (people are allowed to dispute with the Oolil Umr, if they go against Allah's Commandments), refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more commendable in the end." (459)
There is no concept of an "established institution" of religious scholars, sheikhs and imams in Al-Quran.
Only in one Verse (9122), people of "yatafaqqahu fid Deen" are ordered to warn the people.
Yes, warn the people, and not to become teachers and teach them Al-Quran.
Because the same people who will be warned, are commanded to read, contemplate and follow Al-Quran themselves.At another place in Al-Quran, it is adviced to go to people of Knowledge and ask them.
But again, those who are advised to go to people of Knowkedge and ask, are commanded to read, contemplate and follow Al-Quran for themselves,-----because when they would go to people of Knowledge, how would they confirm whatever they are told is from Al-Quran, until they themselves read and attain The Knowledge very properly.
And indeed, such a person who reads Al-Quran keenly and with fear of Allah and know its Message, would barely need to go to any scholar, only when he is confused at some place.So, as such, people of the ummah, are not fully handed over to the Clergies/Imams. The ummah is not left at the mercy of the Clergies/Imams.
There is no institution of "Clergies/Imams" in Al-Quran.And see, what these big Imams and religious scholars (Ulama Karam) have done to this ummah. These corrupt and criminal Ulama Karam, Sheikhs and big Imama follow different schools of thoughts (Shirk) and have divided the ummah into haram and mushrik sects.
This is only and exactly, what the Ulama Karam, big Sheikhs, and big-bellied Imams have done to the ummah.-----They hide The Revealed Truth from people and stop them from Allah.-----"Indeed, those who conceal what We have sent down of Clear Proofs and The Guidance, after what We had made it clear for the people in the Scripture. They are those cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse." (2159)
Who conceals The Clear Proofs (Al-Quran) from the ummah?
Common people???---Or---the corrupt Clergies/Imams???Common people are also liars and criminals,---because they follow these corrupt lot of Clergies/Imams.
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After the Messenger, there is no leader in Deen. The Messenger was an Authorized leader.
Allah Himself is the Teacher, Guide and everything. If someone reads Al-Quran himself, without the help of the fabricated ahadith, tafseer and human teacher, only then he will come to know that Allah alone is The Teacher, Hadi, and everything.Once these Clergies/Imams are taken as leaders or teachers, (even if they are on The Right Path, and as such they are not), shirk starts.
-----"They have taken their Clergies/Imams as their rubb besides Allah" (At-Tauba-31)
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What is the---TruthBehindIt?
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Peace brother!
A lot of Peace! -
Salam and Peace!
In all times, the previous ummahs have always been misguided by these Clergies/Imams, Priests, Rabbis, Pundits. They had made people their slaves and divided them into sects.
These Clergies/Imams always supported the unjust rulers who oppressed the common people.And whenever Allah's Messengers came to the oppressed people with Allah's Revelations, these were the unjust rulers and the Clergies/Imams who stood against them and opposed them.
These corrupt Clergies/Imams and the unjust rulers persecuted the Messengers and their Sahabas.Even today, if any Messenger of Allah had to come to this misguided ummah,-----for sure, these Clergies/Imams of the ummah would have been on the forefront to oppose the Messenger of Allah.
If you need the Proof, then start calling the misguided majority of this ummah to Allah's Quran,-----you will find no one, but the corrupt, sectarian and shirk-doer Clergies/Imams from every corner of the world opposing, threatening and persecuting you.
These gentle-looking, soft-spoken Clergies/Imams, Sheikhs and Ulama Karam will pass a fatwa agaisnt you that you have become a murtad, kafir and blasphemer.
Common people will come and kill you, to go to Paradise and spend time with virgins there.Is it not the---TruthBehindIt?
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Peace again!
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Peace,
I think people are misunderstanding what Jewishdude is saying. Yes we all are aware of the folly of following a leader, but practically, operationally speaking there has to be one or more? How can a group exist practically without leadership? Lest we forget the sheepish mentality of a people. Do we think Quran lone-lies are immune to this? Jewishdude isn't saying to follow them blindly, generally speaking, as I understand it.
I do however disagree with this
We look to an expert who can help us think about something. That person doesn't have authority over the nature they study, but their expertise can give some insights that may take a person decades to realize on their own.
Quantity =/= quality. Just because a person has studied an x number of years doesn't mean they know more than you or better than you. Are odds better? Debatable. Look at the clergy all over the world.
They can perhaps point to sources? All the different views on the topic? A library of sorts. Say a person comes to this library and he can point them to a specific section ,say, dealing with childhood education. Marriage. Divorce. ETC.In terms of learning, a group approach is better than giving one guy the authority over a people who aim to seek knowledge. No matter who the leader is, they will have their own bias. There probably should be a moderator (or moderators) in this context, but his only job is to make sure the process spurts growth, that it's a peaceful process. We also have to realize that no matter what the people will always seek 'religious' guidance. Shouldn't a system based on quran-alone offer this?
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Salam and Peace!
So, a God-fearing person, who purifies himself, and as a reward of it, Allah loves him,-----is the best person to run an institution and serve the people. Such a person could be a ruler or an officer.
But we should remember, in Islam, the rulers and officers, are nothing but servants of the common people.
And people, who are served, has all the right to take them to accountability.What comes out finally, is that the rulers and officers are nothing but servants, organizers or care-takers of the community.
On the other hand the momineen (people) of the community who are served, are commnaded to stand with the (God-fearing) care-takers, and extend their full cooperations to their servants.
-----"O you who believe, fear Allah, and be with those who are true." (9119)
-----"O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those who are in authority (Oolil Umr that is true care-takers of the community) among you. Then if you have a dispute concerning any matter (people are allowed to dispute with the Oolil Umr, if they go against Allah's Commandments), refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more commendable in the end." (459)After the Messenger, there is no leader in Deen. The Messenger was an Authorized leader.
Allah Himself is the Teacher, Guide and everything. If someone reads Al-Quran himself, without the help of the fabricated ahadith, tafseer and human teacher, only then he will come to know that Allah alone is The Teacher, Hadi, and everything.Once these Clergies/Imams are taken as leaders or teachers, (even if they are on The Right Path, and as such they are not), shirk starts.
Peace brother!
A lot of Peace!Salaam
Exactly!! And how do you chose those people of authority ie Oolil Umr?
By regularly attending Jumma and there establishing who is capable of being a true caretaker of every local area, these caretakers later meet yearly to discuss with wider circle of caretakers matters of concern, so this is how you select true repesentative to serve Ummah in the higher Oolil Umr.
Shalom Salaam Peace -
Thanks for the responses.
I think Jack has the idea of where I am going with the question. A moderator, facilitator or whatever you may call it. The point is that people want to be together and learn socially, without a moderator/facilitator I think many people could "HiJack" the Quran Alone movement and turn it into something it was never intended to be. So to rephrase my question....
Does Quran Alone need a moderator/facilitator?
What should be the requirements to be a moderator/facilitator?
How should a moderator/facilitator be trained?Maybe this will help the discussion.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Thanks for the responses.
I think Jack has the idea of where I am going with the question. A moderator, facilitator or whatever you may call it. The point is that people want to be together and learn socially, without a moderator/facilitator I think many people could "HiJack" the Quran Alone movement and turn it into something it was never intended to be. So to rephrase my question....
Does Quran Alone need a moderator/facilitator?
What should be the requirements to be a moderator/facilitator?
How should a moderator/facilitator be trained?Maybe this will help the discussion.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceShalom JewishDude
No those who follow Quran know there is no need for moderator/facilitator but yes there has to be group of people who manage affairs called Oolil Umr; as quoted below
Salam and Peace!
-----"O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those who are in authority (Oolil Umr that is true care-takers of the community) among you. Then if you have a dispute concerning any matter (people are allowed to dispute with the Oolil Umr, if they go against Allah's Commandments), refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more commendable in the end." (459)
There is no concept of an "established institution" of religious scholars, sheikhs and imams in Al-Quran.
Only in one Verse (9122), people of "yatafaqqahu fid Deen" are ordered to warn the people.There is no institution of "Clergies/Imams" in Al-Quran.
Peace brother!
A lot of Peace!Sholam Peace and Salaam
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Salam and Peace, respected brothers/sisters!
Thanks for the responses.
The point is that people want to be together and learn socially, without a moderator/facilitator I think many people could "HiJack" the Quran Alone movement and turn it into something it was never intended to be.
Who can those people be, who would try to HiJack the Quran alone movement?-----They are "munafiqeen", worshippers of their own dirty desires, and worshippers of their favorite Imams/Clergies.
But those who truthfully follow Al-Quran and implement Its Teachings on their ownself, are "momineen", and "momineen" are purified people,---and no group of people can HiJack them.
The best example is of the Messengers. No one could HiJack their Quran-alone movement.Does Quran Alone need a moderator/facilitator?
What should be the requirements to be a moderator/facilitator?
How should a moderator/facilitator be trained?No, respected brother!
There is no need of a moderator/facilitator.
Because,-----ultimately, the moderator will become the same Imam/Clergy.Why?---Because, he will be given an authority over people, and people also would start looking at him for further or better explanations of Al-Quran.
The authorized moderator will impose his understanding, and people will have to bow their heads.
People will start revering and remembering the moderator, and would always say,
"Mr. moderator says-----"
"Mr. moderator says-----"
The way the hadith-followers revere and remember Imam Bukhari, Abu Huraira and the Messenger, and say,-----
"In Imam Bukhari's Sahih Al-Bukhari, Abu Huraira narrates that the Messenger says-----"Whereas, people should always say, "Allah says in His Exalted Quran-----"
But people have fogotten Allah, and they revere and remember ghairullahs (the Messenger, Abu Hurairah, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Imam Bukhari, Imams/Clergies,-----and now perhaps "the moderator".
Remember, worshipping starts with revering, mentioning and remembering someone.
"Mr. moderator says-----"
Who is being revered and worshipped?-----The Moderator."In Imam Bukhari's Sahih Al-Bukhari, Abu Huraira narrates that the Messenger says-----"
Who are being revered and worshipped?-----Imam Bukhari, Abu Hurairah and the Messenger."Allah says in His Exalted Quran-----"
Who is being revered and worshipped?-----Allah alone!And if someone differs and refuses to accept the moderator's understandings, he will be considered as "out of the pail".
And if that "out of the pail" has already impressed a group of people, then ultimately a "Sect" within the Quran-alone people will start.=======================================================
What is the right thing to do?
In my opinion,-----people should read, contemplate and follow Al-Quran for themselves.
People should not read and attain Knowledge of Al-Quran, specifically, for other people.No one of us is allowed to impose his own understanding on other people.
And no one of us should follow other people's understandings.-----This is Shirk!
Because, it will mean that people don't trust in Allah to understand His Easy-to-understand Quran.
No trust in Allah,-----no Iman in Allah.=======================================================
May be, some Quran-Alone people want "a piece of land/state/society" where they could implement The Teachings of Al-Quran.
The Messengers were the best of the people.
No Messenger ever initiated a movement to attain government/power in the land.-----No!They simply came to people, clergies and the rulers,-----and invited them to Allah's Revelation.
The unjust rulers, corrupt Imams/Clergies, and criminal people rejected The Revelation, and stood against the Messengers of Allah.
A few people accepted, and after a certain time, Allah would command His Messenger and momineen to leave the place, and settle in a new place.
If Allah had Willed His Messengers to attain government/power in their country, the Messengers and their Sahaba would have attained power with Allah's Help.
And Allah's Revelation would have been imposed on people.
But, Allah never Willed so!=======================================================
Basically, what I understood with Allah's Help, from Al-Quran (I don't want to impose, and you don't have to follow my understanding),-----is that, for momineen, there is no "ruling the land" in this worldy life.
Why?-----Because, in the case of attaining power, the group of momineen, who were once opposed, persecuted and oppressed,---all of a sudden, they have full control over treasury and revenue-generating resources (gold, minerals, oil, gas, coal, etc. in the country). They are now free to use these wealth as they wish.
This is the most difficult Test, they would now undergo.
Differences, clashes, snatching, attaining profits, nepotism, conspiracies, murder, killing, groupings, sects, Imams/Clergies, unjust rulers, big palaces, robes, dishonest officers, undue priviledges-----all start.
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Indeed, when the Messenger would leave the place with his Sahaba and settle in a new place, the Messenger would have been the ruler.
The Messenger implemented Islam on the momineen.
But after the Messenger and his Sahaba, the next generation would leave The Revelation and become corrupt. And this always happened.Look what happened after our Messenger and his Sahaba.
Banu Umayyah, Banu Abbaas,---till date.=======================================================
The momineen are momineen until they are in an adverse condition.
The moment they are given power over people, they lose balance swiftly.=======================================================
In fact, a momin is a state within his ownself,-----means his ownself is a state.
He has an enemy outside, satan people.
He has an enemy inside, his own nufs (dirty desires).He is supposed to do Jihad against his dirty desires and satan people, and implement Al-Quran on his ownself.
The next thing is that he should call people to Allah (His Quran) at suitable times, gently and softly.Then comes his family.
A momin's family is also a state.Remember, every person is at his best when he is in his family.
He loves his wife and children.
His wife will listen. His children will listen.
He should do Jihad to implement The Teachings of Al-Quran on his family.And when the majority of the families in a society become Quran-followers, Allah would give them Khilafah in the land (2455), and they would implement Al-Quran (2241).
But, will there be such a situation (2455) and then (2241)-------???
After the last Messenger and his Sahaba,---this never happened.=======================================================
Is it not the---TruthBehindIt?
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Yes JewishDude, I was also thinking about that...
And the other day, I just thought about the reason why all the hadiths exist, similar to Talmud and Mishna etc, before. Perhaps there is some truth that the oral tradition, revelation or explanation, given to Moshe orally and not written from God exists, I am more inclined to think that for the populace, and for the lower base mankind, among which heaps are just plain idiots, there must be someone to explain things to them, and also to refine them, and guide them. Cattle must be conducted...
A good allegory is Fellini's film "Orchestra Rehearsal" which comes to mind... Without a conductor, no harmonious music...
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0079759/
The Prophets are rare jewels, and than there is need for real Messengers, but then, as for bad imams and rabis, their mistakes and fabrications go to their own conscience, and we all will answer for what we did!
We are here for the test, to learn, make up our original mistake, and compete for the Paradise and a place near God in the Hereafter.("Why Were We Crated" http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.html )
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I there is need for things like giving the floor to speak in assemblies, no need to qulify anybody based on religion. That would be a civil matter. Whatever the function it would not be a religious fuction, but and administrative one and as such open to anybody and utterly revocable and no need to give it a religious mantle. Nothing "religious" about keeping societies functioning smoothly, and always as the Quran says by shura, not by monopolising functions.
In fact and even traditionally a sheikh is anybody whose reasoning and behavouir insire trust. No authority to them, just whatever people find useful in their counselling. No need of appointment of anybody. Wisdom appoints itself.
Salaam
Salaam -
Thanks for the responses.
I think Jack has the idea of where I am going with the question. A moderator, facilitator or whatever you may call it. The point is that people want to be together and learn socially, without a moderator/facilitator I think many people could "HiJack" the Quran Alone movement and turn it into something it was never intended to be. So to rephrase my question....
Does Quran Alone need a moderator/facilitator?
What should be the requirements to be a moderator/facilitator?
How should a moderator/facilitator be trained?Maybe this will help the discussion.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceIf you would see a QA imam as we see traditional imams/priests/rabbies then I would definately say no, no-one should have a man-made authority about what Allah thinks.
If we see it more in the way of spiritual guidance, to help, someone to talk to about whatever, about the Quran or not. I would love to have that. I would love to have a QA imam in my local mosque, someone I could talk to. I would love to have a QA imam signing the nikkah of my children when they eventually get married. Nikkah and mosques are rituals, not the same as religious authority.
I think most of us are a little bit scared of religious authority because so far they have been very, very bad boys......But I think in order to be a AQ imam the problem of misusing authority will automatically disappear, because how can you be an AQ imam and claim to have religious authority?
Think of an QA imam like Gandhi....
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Think of an QA imam like Gandhi....
Again you are impressed by media hyped Gandhi, those who worked with him will tell you how he stole the show, ask Herijaans(untouchable of India) about it.
Why not look at living examples like Nelson Mendalla or Edhi of Edhi foundations ! -
Again you are impressed by media hyped Gandhi, those who worked with him will tell you how he stole the show, ask Herijaans(untouchable of India) about it.
Why not look at living examples like Nelson Mendalla or Edhi of Edhi foundations !Ok, think of the media hyped Gandhi, that is the kind of imam I like, are we happy now?
What do you mean "again"?