Translation need urgently! Sura 7:157-158
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Salaam Emil,
Moses cannot be 'gentile messanger' because he was one of the Hebrews. In the Holy Bible, 'gentile' usually refers to someone outside the Hebrew community. This can only refer to Muhammad pbuh.
First of all, the prophet mentioned by name in the old, new and Quran is Moses. It is not easy to find prophet Muhammed without a lot of imagination and subjective investigation.
If 7158 is referring to prophet Muhammed, then it means the gentile messenger mentioned in 7157 is also prophet Muhammed, right?
Gentil messenger = prophet Muhammed
7157 Those who follow prophet Muhammed whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel......
By default, this give legitimicaty to the torah and gospel, at least to the ones written 600AD or before. We are not talking about accepting prophets anymore, we are talking about the written scriptures.
So if it is like you say, you understand the huge impact this will have? A muslim can no longer say islam is not to recognise the NT because it is corrupt and on the same time claim that according to the Quran (God's word) prophet Muhammed is mentioned in the NT. Oxymoron by far.
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Salaam all bros and sisters
7157Those who follow the Gentile messenger prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel; he orders them to kindness, and prohibits them from vice, and he makes lawful for them the good things, and he makes unlawful for them the evil things, and he removes their burden and the shackles that are upon them. So those who believe in him, and support him, and help him persevere, and follow the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful ones."
7158 Say "O people, I am a messenger of God to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, there is no god except He; He gives life and causes death." So believe in God and His Gentile messenger prophet, who believes in God and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.
7159 And from among the people of Moses are a nation who guide with the truth and with it they become just.
If I understood it correctly the "gentile messenger" in 7157 is referring to prophet MOSES (Read back a couple of verses)
7158 starts with "Say" which indicates it is prophet Muhammed speaking (duh)
7159 Back to Moses....
Who is the "gentile messenger" in 7158, Moses or Muhammed or both??????????
confused confused confused confused confused confused confused confused confused confused
The bolded part is a refernce to the teachings of the Pharisees and their Talmud which placed a burden on the Israelites. Among many things it made it impossible for them to assimilate and isolated them from the rest of mankind. So it seems that the Messenger or prophetr mentioned here is Muhammad and the Koran which tried to return the Israelites to the teachings of the Torah and Gospel. As Jesus tried to do.
Matt 231-5 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men."
Acts 1510-11 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
Matt 2313 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."
To vindicate Jesus and the Koran, I will quote Bernard Lazare one of the pioneers of the zionist movement about the role that the Talmud played in fuelling antisemitism against the Jews.
"When Jewish nationality was in peril, the Pharisees, under John Hyrcanus, declared impure the soil of strange peoples, as well as all intercourse among Jews and Greeks. Later, the Shamaites advocated at a synod complete separation of the Jews from the heathens, and drafted a set of injunctions, called The Eighteen Things, which ultimately prevailed over the opposition of the Hillelites. As a result Jewish unsociability begins to engage the attention of the councils of Antiochus Sidetes; exception is taken to ?their persistence in shutting themselves up amidst their own kind and avoiding all intercourse with pagans, and to their eagerness to make that intercourse more and more difficult, if not impossible.? And the high priest Menelaus accuses the law before Antiochus Epiphanes, ?of teaching hatred of the human race, of prohibiting to sit down at the table of strangers and to show good-will towards them.?
If these prescriptions had lost their authority when the cause which had produced and, in a way, justified them, had disappeared, the evil would not have been great. Yet we see them reappear in the Talmud and receive a new sanction from the authority of the doctors. After the controversy between the Sadducees and the Pharisees had terminated in the victory of the latter, these injunctions became part of the law, they were taught with the law and helped to develop and exaggerate the exclusiveness of the Jews.
Another fear, that of contamination, separated the Jews from the world and made their isolation still more rigorous. The Pharisees held views of extreme rigour on the subject of contamination; with them the injunctions and prescriptions of the Bible were insufficient to preserve Man from sin. As the sacrificial vases were contaminated by the least impure contact, they came to regard themselves contaminated by contact with strangers. Of this fear were born innumerable rules affecting everyday life rules relating to clothing, dwelling, nourishment, all of which were promulgated with a view to save the Israelites from contamination and sacrilege; all these rules might properly be observed in an independent state or city, but could not possibly be enforced in foreign lands, for their strict observance would require the Jews to flee the society of Gentiles, and thus to live isolated, hostile to their environment.
The Pharisees and the Rabbinites went still farther. Not satisfied with preserving the body, they also sought to save the soul. Experience had shown them that Hellenic and Roman importations imperiled what they deemed their faith. The names of the Hellenistic high priests, Jason, Menelaus, etc., reminded the Rabbinites of the times when the genius of Greece, winning over one portion of Israel, came very near conquering it. They knew that the Sadducean party, friendly to the Greeks, had paved the way for Christianity, as much as the Alexandrians and all those who maintained that ?none but the legal provisions, clearly enunciated in the Mosaic law were binding, whereas all other rules growing from local traditions or subsequently issued, could lay no claim to rigorous observance.
It was under Greek influence that the books and oracles originated which prepared the minds for Messiah. The Hellenistic Jews, Philo and Aristobulus, the pseudo-Phocylides and the pseudo-Longinus, authors of the Sibylline oracles and of the pseudo-Orphics, all these successors of the prophets who continued their work, led mankind to Christ. And it may be said that true Mosaism, purified and enlarged by Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, broadened and generalized by the Judaeo-Hellenists, would have brought Israel to Christianity, but for Ezraism,Pharisaism and Talmudism, which held the mass of the Jews bound to strict observances and narrow ritual practices.
To guard God?s people, to keep it safe from evil influences, the doctors exalted their law above all things. They declared that no study but that of the law alone became an Israelite, and as a whole life-time was hardly sufficient to learn and penetrate all the subtleties and all the casuistry of that law, they prohibited the study of profane sciences and foreign languages. ?Those among us who learn several languages are not held in esteem,? said Josephus; contempt alone was soon thought insufficient, they were excom municated. Nor did these expulsions satisfy the Rabbinites. Though deprived of Plato, had not the Jew still the Bible, could he not listen to the voice of the prophets? As the book could not be proscribed, it was belittled and made subordinate to the Talmud; the doctors declared ?The law is water, the Mishna is wine.? And the reading of the Bible was considered less beneficial, less conducive to salvation than the reading of the Mishna. "
http//www.marxists.org/reference/archive/lazare-bernard/1894/antisemitism/ch01.htm
I think the Koran is talking about this. The Talmud, like the Sunnah for Muslims, is a huge burden. You can clearly see this in Egypt now with the Salafis and the Clerics and their talk about Shariah law and etc. They are not even able to have a democracy like the rest of the world.
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Salaam Amica
First of all, the prophet mentioned by name in the old, new and Quran is Moses. It is not easy to find prophet Muhammed without a lot of imagination and subjective investigation.
If 7158 is referring to prophet Muhammed, then it means the gentile messenger mentioned in 7157 is also prophet Muhammed, right?
Gentil messenger = prophet Muhammed
7157 Those who follow prophet Muhammed whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel......
By default, this give legitimicaty to the torah and gospel, at least to the ones written 600AD or before. We are not talking about accepting prophets anymore, we are talking about the written scriptures.
So if it is like you say, you understand the huge impact this will have? A muslim can no longer say islam is not to recognise the NT because it is corrupt and on the same time claim that according to the Quran (God's word) prophet Muhammed is mentioned in the NT. Oxymoron by far.
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Salaam Amica
First of all, the prophet mentioned by name in the old, new and Quran is Moses. It is not easy to find prophet Muhammed without a lot of imagination and subjective investigation.
If 7158 is referring to prophet Muhammed, then it means the gentile messenger mentioned in 7157 is also prophet Muhammed, right?
Gentil messenger = prophet Muhammed
7157 Those who follow prophet Muhammed whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel......
By default, this give legitimicaty to the torah and gospel, at least to the ones written 600AD or before. We are not talking about accepting prophets anymore, we are talking about the written scriptures.
So if it is like you say, you understand the huge impact this will have? A muslim can no longer say islam is not to recognise the NT because it is corrupt and on the same time claim that according to the Quran (God's word) prophet Muhammed is mentioned in the NT. Oxymoron by far.
Why should a Muslim say the Torah is corrupted anyways?
I think the question here is are there gentile prophets in the Torah?
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7157 Those who follow prophet Muhammed whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel......
By default, this give legitimicaty to the torah and gospel, at least to the ones written 600AD or before. We are not talking about accepting prophets anymore, we are talking about the written scriptures.
The legitimacy of that which was sent in Torat and Injeel is authenticated and sanctified by the Qur'aan and the Last Messenger in simple and vivid words.
For your red part see this
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.93c.gif
You, the Messenger , ask them, "For reason, then come to me with At'Tor'aat then read from itif you people are truthful in what you claim/say"
And how they accept/appoint you, the Messenger, as Judge when with them is the Tor'aat wherein is written the Command of Allah afterwards despite this Command they turn away,
about whom they find mentioned in writing with them in the Tor'aat and the In'jeel. ].
And above it, this might be of interest to you
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.49.gif
you, the Messenger ask them, "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them, I will follow that, if you people are truthful in your assertions to people" -
Why should a Muslim say the Torah is corrupted anyways?
I think the question here is are there gentile prophets in the Torah?
Salaam Bigmo
Exactly, why should they say that?
Person X claims the scriptures Y and Z are corrupt. He says scripture A is the only true message.
Person X says "Look, in the true scripture A it says that your scriptures Y and Z has authenticated my scripture A. Therefore you should follow scripture A and forget about your corrupt Y and Z.By making that claim he has indirectly acknowledged scripture Y and Z, has he not?
If the gentile prophet mentioned in 7157 is indeed prophet Muhammed AND the muslim finds "proof" in either the Torah or NT that prophet Muhammed is mentioned he CANNOT claim the Torah or NT as corrupt.
This is not a QA muslim's dilemma. We all know the Quran is complete and we need no other divine guidance. We can with a pure heart accept that prophet Muhammed is mentioned in the older scriptures, it does not change our view that the Quran is the only scripture which is Allah's word, not mankind's. A muslim who accepts hadith as divine has however a more difficult time explaining why he only accepts hadith from prophet Muhammed and not Jesus/Moses/Abraham.....
I am asking this because the avatar named "Producer" kept posting the same question over and over again and he kinda got under my skin......can't sleep... '(
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Salaam Bigmo
Exactly, why should they say that?
Person X claims the scriptures Y and Z are corrupt. He says scripture A is the only true message.
Person X says "Look, in the true scripture A it says that your scriptures Y and Z has authenticated my scripture A. Therefore you should follow scripture A and forget about your corrupt Y and Z.By making that claim he has indirectly acknowledged scripture Y and Z, has he not?
If the gentile prophet mentioned in 7157 is indeed prophet Muhammed AND the muslim finds "proof" in either the Torah or NT that prophet Muhammed is mentioned he CANNOT claim the Torah or NT as corrupt.
This is not a QA muslim's dilemma. We all know the Quran is complete and we need no other divine guidance. We can with a pure heart accept that prophet Muhammed is mentioned in the older scriptures, it does not change our view that the Quran is the only scripture which is Allah's word, not mankind's. A muslim who accepts hadith as divine has however a more difficult time explaining why he only accepts hadith from prophet Muhammed and not Jesus/Moses/Abraham.....
I am asking this because the avatar named "Producer" kept posting the same question over and over again and he kinda got under my skin......can't sleep... '(
But when the Koran says "that they find" in the previous scriptures it does not necessarily mean they will find Muhammad there. But it could mean as a counter offensive against the Rabbis who probably refused Muhammad because he was a gentile first, then because the Koran given to him critiqued them and most of all it supported Jesus and Mary. Something the Jews will never accept.
However i think that concerning the previous scriptures if "corrupt" means many elements are not as how things happened then its probbaly true, but the Koran already knew that. Not all the Torah and Gospel are God's words. We know the Psalms was David's poetry and prayers and we know Solomon also has poems there and we know that the people who wrote the Torah were humans. But this is what God chose to leave for mankind. Every scriptures has its uniqueness. Jesus was the word of God. He did not receive revelations like the Koran. He spoke when he was a child, so his relation with God was very different that Moses or Muhammad who only received a revelation at later years of their lives. God talked to Moses and there was a back and forth, something you do not see in the Koran. The Koran is a one sided communication.
Jeremiah used to receive a revelation by going in a trance and speaking without being aware. Here God used Jeremiah to scold the Israelites. But unlike Jesus he did not have it constantly. Thats is why the Koran says that Jesus had the holy spirit. It was with him at all times, at least thats how it seems from the Gospel.
Sunni and Shias simply copied all this and made Muhammad a prophet with multiple revelations sometimes like Jesus where he simply is able to answer without thinking, sometimes like Moses as the case with his supposed rising to the skies where he has a back and forth communication with God.
Muhammad to these sects was liks a super prophet.
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Peace all,
I'm a moslem and believe that the Quran, Torah and Injeel are the Books of Allah and are protected equally by God.
Moreover, I believe that God only protected the Books in their original languages (Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew), and not the translations. No one can deny that the Quran has been translated to different languages and most, if not all, are corrupted. The same with the Torah and Injeel.Peace