Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?

huruf

The thing is that objectively speaking, manu relationships that do not last forever, are in fact marriages. But people fear marriage, as if it was marriage that makes things last and is serious, but what is serious is the relationship, and whether it lasts or not, it is still marriage. So, if homrones play havoc, but an honest havoc, it is still marriage. It owuld not be marriage it it wasn't a relationship but an act without acknowledgement of any relationship.

On the other hand, Emirl, four witnesses are required. Your hypothetic children would have to be real lustful wretches to fish for witnesses when being at it.

I agree that that part of sura An-nur is very secifically directed at salnderers. The number of ayas dedicated to them and what they say against the few ayas dedicated to actual zina make it very clear. And most particularly it points to the targetting of women for slander an wreckage.

It is a fact that people can maniulate and twist anything to suit their whims, and ignore anything that doesn't suit them. We should not blame the Qur'an for that, but those who are blind to it.

Salaam

Bigmo

I really don?t care what is customary in Arab Society, killing yourselves is forbidden in the Quran.

This is not true. No prophet will ever tell anyone to kill themselves!!!!! Please do not try to compare Moses to Jim Jones!!! It?s insulting!!!! Killing yourselves is forbidden!!

429 O you who acknowledge, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade, which is mutually agreed by you. Do not kill yourselves; God is Compassionate towards you.

254 Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged yourselves by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and face yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Compassionate."

Moses was telling the people to KILL THEIR EGOS and not themselves. Killing your ego is a path that leads to righteousness.

In addition 242 is a practical law. THE QURAN IS CLEAR.

242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment.

Any person who says otherwise is either misinterpreting the Quran or twisting the scripture to suit there own benefit. In an Monotheistic society that follows the Quran alone if four witnesses witness an adulteress act and then accuses someone of adultery then it binding upon the believers to administer this punishment. Now we all know that most governments will not allow us to implement a punishment like this. However I do believe they will be a time in the future where God laws can be implemented without the fear of repercussions. Till then we must use other measures. However just because we can't implement a punishment doesn't mean that it is forbidden. God?s law is clear. When the time comes God's law will be implemented without fear and repercussions.

Peace,

Kevin

The punishment is not that hard to impliment. Whats lashing for adultery? People get lashed in schools for a lot less. So the issue is not the theoretical aspect of the law, its the practical aspect. Its hard to find four witnesses. And even if the spouse sees her in bed with another woman, he has to swear four times and she can swear four times. Most people will lie, so the woman or man can always lie about such things. But even is lashing is afministered, its a fitting punishment and most people would not mind lashing wghen it comes to adultery anyways. Adultery is one of the ten commandments of Moses.

Meanwhile your interpretation of Moses's verse is unconvincing. Its seems you are trying to put some spin on it. What do you mean killing your ego and how would you kill an ego? Plus God says he can forgive any sin except shirk. So I am not sure what you are saying.

But lashing for adultery is no big deal. Muslims lash for silly things like alcohol, and watching pornos and in Sudan for women wearing pants. Adultery is another ball game. Its still won't change anything. Ask anyone who was involved with such things and they will tell you that lashing won't solve the propblem. But i find the verse about it interesting as the Koran made it very hard to impliment.

But one thing is clear frpom the lashing verse, it is four times easier for someone making the accusation(except spouse) to get lashed than the adulterer. The accuser has to bring forth four witnesses. Meaning all together we have five. Other than that he or she can get lashed. lol! Its very obvious the goal here is to prevent people from accusers others.

When the Koran says do not kill yourself its talking about doing it for the wrong reasons. Worshiping a calf after all what God did and what they say Him do from splitting the ocean and bringing the plague on the Pharoah and all the miracles performed by Moses, is another thing. The Koran said the same when Jesus's disciples asked him to bring a food table from the heavens. Then the Koran said God said anyone who disbelieves after this will be punished like nobody else. That person was Judas. Although he didn't actually disbelief but disobeyed and betrayed Jesus and pointed him to the Talmud firsters. We all know what happened after that. Not every punishment God believes is appropriate can be administered by all humans. But some can.

Judas did the right thing.

WhereIsTheTruth

I really don?t care what is customary in Arab Society, killing yourselves is forbidden in the Quran.

This is not true. No prophet will ever tell anyone to kill themselves!!!!! Please do not try to compare Moses to Jim Jones!!! It?s insulting!!!! Killing yourselves is forbidden!!

429 O you who acknowledge, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade, which is mutually agreed by you. Do not kill yourselves; God is Compassionate towards you.

254 Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged yourselves by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and face yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Compassionate."

Moses was telling the people to KILL THEIR EGOS and not themselves. Killing your ego is a path that leads to righteousness.

In addition 242 is a practical law. THE QURAN IS CLEAR.

242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment.

Any person who says otherwise is either misinterpreting the Quran or twisting the scripture to suit there own benefit. In an Monotheistic society that follows the Quran alone if four witnesses witness an adulteress act and then accuses someone of adultery then it binding upon the believers to administer this punishment. Now we all know that most governments will not allow us to implement a punishment like this. However I do believe they will be a time in the future where God laws can be implemented without the fear of repercussions. Till then we must use other measures. However just because we can't implement a punishment doesn't mean that it is forbidden. God?s law is clear. When the time comes God's law will be implemented without fear and repercussions.

Peace,

Kevin

Very intresting. But even in the future, if the quranic law can be implemented in cases of adultery than there would still be 4 witnessers required? I think than this punishment would occur very rare, since most people dont fornicate or commit adultery in the presence of 4 others... however, you continue to use the word 'adultery' what about fornication? As I can see, quran does not distinguish between adultery and fornication.

Peace

Emil

On the other hand, Emirl, four witnesses are required. Your hypothetic children would have to be real lustful wretches to fish for witnesses when being at it.
Salaam

Yeah I know......almost impossible to get caught.........But the way I see it is that adultery is one of the few things Allah has actually stipulated a punishment for. To me that is a sign that it is quite a serious offence. Therefore one could conclude the action must be of a very serious kind. When I compare fornication with adultery there is a clear winner of what can wreck a family and if it really goes bad, create orphans. Therefore it is more important to understand what adultery can do to your family instead of focusing on the fact it is almost impossible to get caught.

So my very real children will be allowed to fornicate in the way many faithful people see fornication. As long as they do it out of love and with clear awareness of the "seriousness" of a relationship. In their mind they are married, eventhough they are seeing the world through very naive and hormonal goggles. I cannot tell them they are wrong when their emotions say they are right, they must find out themselves. Don't get me wrong, if any of my sons are dating just to get laid I will whoop their asses, same goes for my girls. Love is the key, that is the difference between fornication and marriage.
As per marriage being something to be scared of, I think it is right. It is serious and a person is taking an oath to protect and support another human being should never be taken lightly.

To me, it is very clear Allah only shows what is to be done for adultery (242). Because adultery is a fact, period. There is absolutely no way adultery can be anything but adultery.
Fornication is what you want it to be. My opinion differs from others, how on earth can Allah stipulate a harsh punishment for a crime that can be based on an opinion? Therefore the guidance is a guidance, it is up to us as individuals to decide what fornication is (1732).

WhereIsTheTruth

Yeah I know......almost impossible to get caught.........But the way I see it is that adultery is one of the few things Allah has actually stipulated a punishment for. To me that is a sign that it is quite a serious offence. Therefore one could conclude the action must be of a very serious kind. When I compare fornication with adultery there is a clear winner of what can wreck a family and if it really goes bad, create orphans. Therefore it is more important to understand what adultery can do to your family instead of focusing on the fact it is almost impossible to get caught.

So my very real children will be allowed to fornicate in the way many faithful people see fornication. As long as they do it out of love and with clear awareness of the "seriousness" of a relationship. In their mind they are married, eventhough they are seeing the world through very naive and hormonal goggles. I cannot tell them they are wrong when their emotions say they are right, they must find out themselves. Don't get me wrong, if any of my sons are dating just to get laid I will whoop their asses, same goes for my girls. Love is the key, that is the difference between fornication and marriage.
As per marriage being something to be scared of, I think it is right. It is serious and a person is taking an oath to protect and support another human being should never be taken lightly.

To me, it is very clear Allah only shows what is to be done for adultery (242). Because adultery is a fact, period. There is absolutely no way adultery can be anything but adultery.
Fornication is what you want it to be. My opinion differs from others, how on earth can Allah stipulate a harsh punishment for a crime that can be based on an opinion? Therefore the guidance is a guidance, it is up to us as individuals to decide what fornication is (1732).

But fornication is a serious crime also. Allowance of unmarried people sleeping around together does not only create lustful people but also aids, HIV, AND other diseases but it also creates heartbreaks, children out of wedlock and so on.

WhereIsTheTruth

I was in an marriage that was 10 yrs plus 4 yr dating. He had affairs.. I can not EXPRESS the hurt and pain. Never could I trust him again, looking at him made me want to vomit. He was my first, so it hurt even more. It tore my family apart and my children landed in therapy. One day we were laughing in the car. The next night he came home to ALL his stuff thrown out in the middle of the yard. He denied everything, but I am not stupid, I talked to the people he cheated with. Imagine the embassament of getting an AIDS Test and STD test and explaining the situation, which was more than a "normal" affairs. Besides, pictures speak a thousand words, they also hold up in court!

Having the one you love and trust with another is so painful. Hence why almost did not come into islam due to Polygamy. I knew I would kill someone. Him having a second wife is still equal to an affair to me, just worse because I KNOW what you are doing with her. I would go insane, I can't ever let myself experience that pain again. I promised myself for it was almost the end of me. As a Muslim female, I just thought I would never be able to put my gaurd down, always being nervous if he was thinking of another or wanted another wife or MMA.

It took me FOREVER to trust the male gender, and Islam does not make it easy to trust the man with all their free reign of sex (in some sunni's versions of islam). Maybe it is my fault for veiwing intamacy as a very sacred thing, which is why I waited till I was married. You don't feel it is so sacred and worth waiting for when this happens.

If a man can't stand his wife with another, what makes him think she can stand to see him with another? Don't they say a women is more emotional than a man?

Sorry guys.

I understand you 100% you almost reminds me of my self in the past. Of course I am a virgin until my marriage, I never compromise on moral issues hence I had the condition that whoever i get marry to has to be a virgin like me. Under no circumstances would I accept a fornicator, because if he cant even control his penis before marriage how can I expect that he can control it after marriage ? And seriously I am tired of being a opressed victim as a muslim woman - if my husband wants to practise polygamy I would definitely practice polyandry as well. Let him bring another bitc* in my home and i will bring another man home as well, that's JUSTICE. But furtunately this would not really happen since I would never marry a man who believes in polygamy or any other sort of wife cheating. I don't believe in husbannd-swapping. Loyalty is the strongest sign of true love and respect for your wife.

Peace

huruf

Yeah I know......almost impossible to get caught.........But the way I see it is that adultery is one of the few things Allah has actually stipulated a punishment for. To me that is a sign that it is quite a serious offence. Therefore one could conclude the action must be of a very serious kind. When I compare fornication with adultery there is a clear winner of what can wreck a family and if it really goes bad, create orphans. Therefore it is more important to understand what adultery can do to your family instead of focusing on the fact it is almost impossible to get caught.

So my very real children will be allowed to fornicate in the way many faithful people see fornication. As long as they do it out of love and with clear awareness of the "seriousness" of a relationship. In their mind they are married, eventhough they are seeing the world through very naive and hormonal goggles. I cannot tell them they are wrong when their emotions say they are right, they must find out themselves. Don't get me wrong, if any of my sons are dating just to get laid I will whoop their asses, same goes for my girls. Love is the key, that is the difference between fornication and marriage.
As per marriage being something to be scared of, I think it is right. It is serious and a person is taking an oath to protect and support another human being should never be taken lightly.

To me, it is very clear Allah only shows what is to be done for adultery (242). Because adultery is a fact, period. There is absolutely no way adultery can be anything but adultery.
Fornication is what you want it to be. My opinion differs from others, how on earth can Allah stipulate a harsh punishment for a crime that can be based on an opinion? Therefore the guidance is a guidance, it is up to us as individuals to decide what fornication is (1732).

I didn't mean the part about getting caught as condoning zina as something that is not very important. It is important, and you rightly conlude that from the fact that it is made punishable with 100 lashes.

But the requirement of the four witnesses, to also points to the fact that we must not rely in punishment as means os saving societies from it, because one can do plenty of zina without four witnesses. To me it points to the level of transgression it is, but the believers must be conscious of it themselves. Punishment is not supposed to do that job for them. And the fixing of a punishment also precludes that people go around avenging this kind of thing wildly. That also is important.

Salaam

KDC501

The punishment is not that hard to impliment. Whats lashing for adultery? People get lashed in schools for a lot less. So the issue is not the theoretical aspect of the law, its the practical aspect. Its hard to find four witnesses. And even if the spouse sees her in bed with another woman, he has to swear four times and she can swear four times. Most people will lie, so the woman or man can always lie about such things. But even is lashing is afministered, its a fitting punishment and most people would not mind lashing wghen it comes to adultery anyways. Adultery is one of the ten commandments of Moses.

Brother Bigmo

I would advise you to read the Quran carefully ....

242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment
243 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. The adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. This has been forbidden for the acknowledgers.
244 Those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers;
245 Except those who repent after this and do right, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
246 Those who accuse their wives, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them should be four testimony, swearing by God that he is being truthful.
247 The fifth shall be God's curse upon him if he is one of those lying.
248 The punishment will be averted from her if she testifies four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 The fifth shall be that God's curse is upon her if he is speaking the truth.

Brother if a man witnesses his wife committing an adulterous act he does not need four witnesses to make the accusation. His testimony will be the testimony of four people if he swears before God. The only way that a women can avert the punishment is if she swears fours times that her spouse is lying.

Now this other issue about 100 lashes not being a big deal.lol. Dear brother Bigmo the 100 lashes is not the only punishment that adulterer will suffer
The adulterer will suffer

100 lashes
2)Public Shame
Most believers will abstain from marrying a person who has committed an adulterous act.

This is not a small issue this is big one. God's law is clear. Public shame and losing the trust of your brothers and sisters in the same is faith is no joke.

Meanwhile your interpretation of Moses's verse is unconvincing. Its seems you are trying to put some spin on it. What do you mean killing your ego and how would you kill an ego? Plus God says he can forgive any sin except shirk. So I am not sure what you are saying.

This is a long topic. I believe Edip's explanation will be able to answer your question better than I can.

Read here https//docs.google.com/document/d/1_E-nFHs8Y17bJO4omTM9XJlU_ztFNpaN4dzZ6PdTBlY/edit?hl=en_GB

When it comes to translating the Quran it is vital that all of the teachings be consistent. You cannot in one verse ban suicide and killing one another and in the next allow it!

In addition your narrow definition of shirk is incomplete. Any time you disobey God's law you are committing shirk. Disobeying God's law is putting yourself as a god before God. This is sin.

2543 Have you seen the one who has taken his ego as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?
2544 Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle. No, they are worse off.

But one thing is clear frpom the lashing verse, it is four times easier for someone making the accusation(except spouse) to get lashed than the adulterer. The accuser has to bring forth four witnesses. Meaning all together we have five. Other than that he or she can get lashed. lol! Its very obvious the goal here is to prevent people from accusers others.

415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

244 Those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers;

You only need four witnesses to accuse women of adultery. The person who accuses the adulterer is one of the four witnesses. This is proved in Sura 415

When the Koran says do not kill yourself its talking about doing it for the wrong reasons. Worshiping a calf after all what God did and what they say Him do from splitting the ocean and bringing the plague on the Pharoah and all the miracles performed by Moses, is another thing. The Koran said the same when Jesus's disciples asked him to bring a food table from the heavens. Then the Koran said God said anyone who disbelieves after this will be punished like nobody else. That person was Judas. Although he didn't actually disbelief but disobeyed and betrayed Jesus and pointed him to the Talmud firsters. We all know what happened after that. Not every punishment God believes is appropriate can be administered by all humans. But some can.

Judas did the right thing.

Brother Bigmo I do not care what Judas did. Judas is not in the Quran. Any narration that is does not comply with the Quran are assumptions and not facts. If you want to follow assumptions with no proof then you are doing the same thing that Sunnis and Shites do. Also what do you mean by "When the Koran says do not kill yourself its talking about doing it for the wrong reasons". Why is it that there are so many people who claim to follow the Quran yet twist the scripture. When God says do not kill yourselves he means don't kill yourselves there are no if's and but's!!! Either you follow God's law or commit shirk , your choice.

Peace,

Kevin

KDC501

Very intresting. But even in the future, if the quranic law can be implemented in cases of adultery than there would still be 4 witnessers required? I think than this punishment would occur very rare, since most people dont fornicate or commit adultery in the presence of 4 others... however, you continue to use the word 'adultery' what about fornication? As I can see, quran does not distinguish between adultery and fornication.

Peace

Both adultery and fornication are banned in the Quran...

2430 Tell the acknowledging men to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.

If you practice modesty and guard your private parts how can you commit adultery or fornication? Common Sense people.

2431 Tell the acknowledging women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparent, and let them cast their clothes over their cleavage. Let them not show off their attraction except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the nakedness of women. Let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction. Repent to God, all of you acknowledgers, so that you may succeed.

It is my belief that adultery in the Quran means "any type of sex outside of marriage." It is naive to limit adultery to mean only " sexual infidelity to one's spouse" since this is an English definition and not a Quranic definition.

Peace,

Kevin.

KDC501

Yeah I know......almost impossible to get caught.........But the way I see it is that adultery is one of the few things Allah has actually stipulated a punishment for. To me that is a sign that it is quite a serious offence. Therefore one could conclude the action must be of a very serious kind. When I compare fornication with adultery there is a clear winner of what can wreck a family and if it really goes bad, create orphans. Therefore it is more important to understand what adultery can do to your family instead of focusing on the fact it is almost impossible to get caught.

So my very real children will be allowed to fornicate in the way many faithful people see fornication. As long as they do it out of love and with clear awareness of the "seriousness" of a relationship. In their mind they are married, eventhough they are seeing the world through very naive and hormonal goggles. I cannot tell them they are wrong when their emotions say they are right, they must find out themselves. Don't get me wrong, if any of my sons are dating just to get laid I will whoop their asses, same goes for my girls. Love is the key, that is the difference between fornication and marriage.
As per marriage being something to be scared of, I think it is right. It is serious and a person is taking an oath to protect and support another human being should never be taken lightly.

To me, it is very clear Allah only shows what is to be done for adultery (242). Because adultery is a fact, period. There is absolutely no way adultery can be anything but adultery.
Fornication is what you want it to be. My opinion differs from others, how on earth can Allah stipulate a harsh punishment for a crime that can be based on an opinion? Therefore the guidance is a guidance, it is up to us as individuals to decide what fornication is (1732).

If a person truly loves another person then marriage should be the first thing on there mind and not sex. Sex outside of wedlock without the thought of marriage is lust and not love.

Peace,

Kevin.

WhereIsTheTruth

Both adultery and fornication are banned in the Quran...

2430 Tell the acknowledging men to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.

If you practice modesty and guard your private how can you commit adultery or fornication. Common Sense people.

2431 Tell the acknowledging women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparent, and let them cast their clothes over their cleavage. Let them not show off their attraction except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the nakedness of women. Let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction. Repent to God, all of you acknowledgers, so that you may succeed.

It is my belief that adultery in the Quran means "any type of sex outside of marriage." It is naive to limit adultery to mean only " sexual infidelity to one's spouse" since this is an English definition and not a Quranic definition.

Peace,

Kevin.

I agree with you 100%. Both adultery and fornication are gross sins. Adultery spoils families while fornication is pure lust. god has created HIV, AND AIDS for these lustful people. I just thought front your previous post that you understood zina as being limited to adultery and not being fornication. But zina is every sexual act outside marriage as you rightly said.

Peace

Emil

I didn't mean the part about getting caught as condoning zina as something that is not very important. It is important, and you rightly conlude that from the fact that it is made punishable with 100 lashes.

But the requirement of the four witnesses, to also points to the fact that we must not rely in punishment as means os saving societies from it, because one can do plenty of zina without four witnesses. To me it points to the level of transgression it is, but the believers must be conscious of it themselves. Punishment is not supposed to do that job for them. And the fixing of a punishment also precludes that people go around avenging this kind of thing wildly. That also is important.

Salaam

I am truly sorry brother, I should have put a ;D so you knew I was joking a little. Sorry Huruf

WhereIsTheTruth

If a person truly loves another person then marriage should be the first thing on there mind and not sex. Sex outside of wedlock without the thought of marriage is lust and not love.

Peace,

Kevin.

Just my words! Finally someone who preaches chastity in this thread after all the weired posts from people who try to justify fornication. IF I loved a boy i would marry him, NOT sleep around with him that's lust and not love.

KDC501

I agree with you 100%. Both adultery and fornication are gross sins. Adultery spoils families while fornication is pure lust. god has created HIV, AND AIDS for these lustful people. I just thought front your previous post that you understood zina as being limited to adultery and not being fornication. But zina is every sexual act outside marriage as you rightly said.

Peace

We both share the same sentiments. The last thing we need in a Monotheistic society are male and female Casanovas.

Peace,

Kevin.

Emil

But fornication is a serious crime also. Allowance of unmarried people sleeping around together does not only create lustful people but also aids, HIV, AND other diseases but it also creates heartbreaks, children out of wedlock and so on.

Yes, fornication is a serious crime, but what is fornication? To you dear sister it seems to be sex without love, one night stands and such? Or is it between two people that have given the oaths of support and protection BUT it has not been said to society in the traditional/ritual sense?

You see the difference I am trying to show? There is a difference between fornicating in the name of an orgasm and fornicating in the name of love

Emil

WAIT! I see that you, I and Kevinare saying the same thing but with different words, am I right? Jeez......sometimes these posts go fast....

WhereIsTheTruth

Yes, fornication is a serious crime, but what is fornication? To you dear sister it seems to be sex without love, one night stands and such? Or is it between two people that have given the oaths of support and protection BUT it has not been said to society in the traditional/ritual sense?

You see the difference I am trying to show? There is a difference between fornicating in the name of an orgasm and fornicating in the name of love

You have a point. One night stand is so disgusting that it does not warrant a response. But here in sweden I have met a Swedish couple who have been together 25 years(from when they both were 1 and they have children on my age. They have always stayed loyal to each other. But they are not married in the papers although they have lived a almost married life together in 25 years. I don't know what opinion i should have about them, especially because I have seen Muslims getting marry several times and divorced several times like a game while this swedish couple who dont have marriage papers but have been truely commited to each other since they were teenagers. Who are really married in this case ?

huruf

That is what I meant in a pprevious message where there is common life for whatever time, and that life is that of a couple we are talking about a "de facto"marriage. To all purposes it is a marriage. Whether or not it lasts till death or two years or one year, still it is a marriage.

Salaam

KDC501

WAIT! I see that you, I and Kevinare saying the same thing but with different words, am I right? Jeez......sometimes these posts go fast....

Yes, fornication is a serious crime, but what is fornication? To you dear sister it seems to be sex without love, one night stands and such? Or is it between two people that have given the oaths of support and protection BUT it has not been said to society in the traditional/ritual sense?

You see the difference I am trying to show? There is a difference between fornicating in the name of an orgasm and fornicating in the name of love

My point is that adultery is "any sex outside of marriage". What you are saying is that a ritual marriage is not a necessity and that 'fornicating' outside of marriage is fine so as long they love each other . In this case I am in totally disagreement with you.

Marriage is not only based on love alone but on contractual and binding agreements between a man and woman 'Oaths of support and protection' is the exact same thing that can be found in the average boyfriend and girlfriend relationship. Making 'Oaths of support and protection' without being legally married is dangerous and can backfire badly if your partner is unfaithful to you.

The 'ritual(practice) of marriage' from the Quranic sense is the most important part of any relationship since it ensures that both parties are getting the best of the relationship without having to worry that your partner is unfaithful to you. 'Oaths of protection and support' can never be the same as being legally married. Being legally married has a strong psychological effect on another person since it is the 'seal of a relationship' between a man and a woman.

Yes a person can love someone and have sex with them outside of marriage, but again this is forbidden in Quran as I have shown you already. You cannot have sex with any person unless you are legally married to them. If a man truly loves a woman then marriage is something that he will constantly be thinking about and not how to get a girl in the bedroom. "Fornicating in the name of love" outside of marriage as you say it is a dumb and stupid thing to do when you have the option to simply marry each other.

Peace,

Kevin

Bigmo

Brother Bigmo

I would advise you to read the Quran carefully ....

242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment
243 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. The adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. This has been forbidden for the acknowledgers.
244 Those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers;
245 Except those who repent after this and do right, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
246 Those who accuse their wives, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them should be four testimony, swearing by God that he is being truthful.
247 The fifth shall be God's curse upon him if he is one of those lying.
248 The punishment will be averted from her if she testifies four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 The fifth shall be that God's curse is upon her if he is speaking the truth.

Brother if a man witnesses his wife committing an adulterous act he does not need four witnesses to make the accusation. His testimony will be the testimony of four people if he swears before God. The only way that a women can avert the punishment is if she swears fours times that her spouse is lying.

Now this other issue about 100 lashes not being a big deal.lol. Dear brother Bigmo the 100 lashes is not the only punishment that adulterer will suffer
The adulterer will suffer

100 lashes
2)Public Shame
Most believers will abstain from marrying a person who has committed an adulterous act.