The Search for Muhammad has Ended
-
hmm, I guess you are biased towards... let me guess... yes...
the Arabs and the Palestinians...
so long as they carry on as they are with the "sectarian muslims", the only thing they get from God is being chosen... to be punished!
now enjoy this wonderful bargain... bravo
Sure, irrelevant. Most peoples in the world are irrelevant. Just the few chosen ones who had the business sense to get an exclusive with God to patent religion.
Why is it that this kind of questions are inexorably guided to end up toalking about peoples and nations and their favoritism or lack of it with God, and not about Humanity?
Nobody is irrelevant and nobody os more relevant than others. Only taqaw makes any difference.
Asto Nabster's historical analysis more of the same old garbage to guarantee the exclusivity of the religion business.
Salaam
-
So, I guess , (I can guess too, you know, and congratulate you on you esplendorous future as insider in the busines of religion), that you consider the whole population of the world, except those few with the divine exclusive, to be irrelevant virtual Palestinians. Not surprising.
Hope that exclusive helps you out too when you die, though I am sorry I doubt it.
In the meantime, continue guessing, you can improve a lot. But of course you are not trying to guess you are just branding people to suit your own purpose and you don't give a damn whther you guess right or wrong provided you infuse prejudice in peoples minds. That will also helpt you out a lot when you die.
And don't bother making it look as if to sympathise with Palestinians were something to be ashamed of or that one looses standing for it. I don'tgive a damn about you standings and criteria and yes, I sympathize fully with Palestinians and trust that the whole of Palestine will be liberated sooner than all the decaying imperials might wish. I pray for it and do what I can. So keep your overbearing attitude for those who may be stinged by it. For me it is a medal. So please repeat it as muchas you feel like it.
Salaam
-
Peace IMHO,
If the interests of the State of Israel are threatened, of course they will deploy pundits/spooks to subvert the threat... it happens all the time... but no need to be too carried away with paranoia...
To put your mind at ease, I have Jewish blood (Sephardim- more accurate Israelite, as Jew is Yahud, who Hadu, meaning were guided as a subset of the majority in 12 tribes descendants of Yakub who rebelled)
and Arabic (amazingly in the lineage of Prophet Mohamed (PSTH and the others))...I always get into colourful arguments with pro-zionists jews and pro-muslim sectarians (mainly sunnis) about many issues, including Palestine...
For me, ultimately it does not matter, you see unlike the Israelites with Moses, the Muslims (according to the Quranic definition), are not requested to enter a Town and make it their own, as the Israelites were asked...
In fact it is rather the opposite, if there is too much "fitna", and the Muslim/s cannot live in peace to obey Allah's guidance, they are encouraged to emigrate to a better place for their "deen"...
Now the only thing the Quran speaks about that is of concern for the Believers is the Place of Pilgrimage, is it a geographical place like Mekkah (the current status quo), or Jerusalem (New -pazuzu- according to our Bro Layth), any place the Muslims agree to (some argue this point), a virtual place (some others argue this), maybe in Yemen (Original Old Jerusalem still waiting for the continuation of pazuzu's arguments)...
For now, I have accepted it is Jerusalem...
Unlike pazuzu, it is not the Children of Israel who do not exist anymore, they are referred to in the Quran as a continuing grouping, with their offshoot those who Hadu, or the Yahoud (Jew in English)...
What is debatable (unlike the Israelites who are mentioned in the Quran in the present continuing tense) are the Palestinians, and Palestine... not once are these mentioned to be of interest or significance in the Quran.
Of course, this is very politically incorrect to say so in the Arab world, but nevertheless, if we take the Quran as our basis for our belief system, Palestine and the Palestinians are irrelevant... However what is of importance is the relationship with Allah and what is expected of the Believers to obtain salvation...This is a stand I take as regards these matters and which I published in the past
excerpt 1
Palestine does indeed come from Philistines who were the people of the sea and lived in what is Gaza now... it is argued they originally come from Crete, and they are "famous" for the biblical account of their leader Goliath who was slain by David...
At this moment in time, and from my reading of the scriptures, no one fits the bill...
So let them fight for rock and sand... and alas kill themselves in the process...
that is the sadness of religion...Salaam my half jewish brother
I beleive its not paranoya, but like you I am very wary of manipulation, which goes on all the time. To say to the Palestinians to leave and seek asylum somewhere else could also be seen as what is advocated for here.
Secondly being jewish or not, or claiming to have blood links to the prophet is irrelevant to me as it's not who you are but what you do that counts.
What is relevant is to speak up against injustice, discrimination and apartheid whether it be in South Africa or in Palestine. To say 'oh they are suffering because of being sunni' is to judge others. By your standard how do you know that you are not being punished for some sin by being given a comfortable life in this world, which is but an illusion, and may be deprived of Paradise? hmm -
Salams to everyone
No problem for me, I will drop the current Jerusalem and Judeah/Palestine in a heartbeat as areas of focus of Islamic interest, if indeed it can be proven that these are not the areas referred to in the Bible and The Quran...
And that's exactly what I intend to prove, if you will just give me the chance.
In fact I won't be surprised if Pazuzu is stopped from putting his evidence on this forum, as he is talking about the exsistance of the prophet whereas this forum is working to deny that.
If the interests of the State of Israel are threatened, of course they will deploy pundits/spooks to subvert the threat... it happens all the time... but no need to be too carried away with paranoia...
Think of it this way If they stop me, it means I'm telling the truth. If I suddenly disappear, then you'll know who's behind it, and whose behind this forum as well.
Palestine does indeed come from Philistines who were the people of the sea and lived in what is Gaza now
LIES!
The word "Philistines" refers to ancient pagan tribes who lived in the mountains of Yemen. Their name, in Arabic is
The transliteration is Al-Filis or Al-Filist (The addition of the letter "t" at the end of some proper nouns was a PHENOMENON in the ancient Yemeni language. FOr example, the Persians were called "AL-Furust" (rather than Al-Furus).
In the Aramaic Torah, the word appears as "ha-philistim" ("ha" is the Aramaic pronoun article, while the letters "im" are used to denote the plurar sense. Cherub (angel) - Cherubim (angels). Eloh (god) - Elohim (gods). Katub (book) - Katubim (books).
These pagan tribes had a well-known center of worship somewhere near Mount Aban (or Eban), in Yemen, (Mentioned in the Torah as "Eban-Ezar", called, in Arabic, "Bayt' ul Filis " (House of the Filis), where they fought many battles against the monotheist Israelites in the 11th Century BC. The ancient Arabian poetry is full of references the the bloody battles fought on the sloes of Mount Aban-Eban.
I was saving the details of this fact for later, but I felt I should give you just a tiny sample of what's to come.
I personally have nothing against the laymen Jews. This is because I believe they have been just as much victims of deception as the Muslims and Christians. In fact, I have made some good friends from among the folks in the "Jews against Zionism movement".
The problem is with the some ancient Jewish Rabbis who corrupted Allah's words, and of course the Zionists.
Salaam Pazuau
We are looking forward to your post on this subjectPatience is a virtue.
I just hope I can complete this thread before I am silenced.
Peace....
-
Salam Bro IMHO,
You are absolutely right...
that being said, I believe in blood lines, and if anything, not being up to one's bloodline's initial blessings is a mighty curse, if not why did the Israelites be punished for forty years, that would include the children and children's children of that generation...and parents do pray for their progeny, didn't Abraham do? and only part of his progeny might benefit... otherwise why would parents pray, and God did not forbid them to do so?
It is also like those fundamentalists who want to deny others the right to be rich, and use Religion as an excuse to thief from others that God has blessed with riches, and the opposite with the Rich exploiting the poor by not giving them enough for their labour because they have the upper hand and they can...
Actually, I am anti-religious... and I believe Allah is too, and that He tolerates Religion so long as it leads to Goodness and the Shunning of Evil, but if it does the opposite, like the manifestations of the Inquisition or Zionism, of course these are abominations and exploitation of a perversion of Allah's Message to Mankind, which is Eeman in Allah and the shunning of Taghuut...
Peace and Salutations
Nabil
-
hmm, I guess you are biased towards... let me guess... yes...
the Arabs and the Palestinians...
so long as they carry on as they are with the "sectarian muslims", the only thing they get from God is being chosen... to be punished!
now enjoy this wonderful bargain... bravo
dude you are hysterical and have issues? why the froth on the side of your mouth, did I rattle some snakes?dude you are hysterical and have issues? why the froth on the side of your mouth, did I rattle some snakes?
-
Salam Bro IMHO,
You are absolutely right...
that being said, I believe in blood lines, and if anything, not being up to one's bloodline's initial blessings is a mighty curse, if not whyNabil
Salaam Bro
So do many Shia and Sunni who claim to descent from the prophet and call themselves Sayed and say like jew that fire will not touch them bla blaIt is also like those fundamentalists who want to deny others the right to be rich, and use Religion as an excuse to thief from others that God has blessed with riches, and the opposite with the Rich exploiting the poor by not giving them enough for their labour because they have the upper hand and they can...
Are you talking about illegal occupation of the West Bank by fundamentalist Jews who claim that God has chosen them to snatch this land from its the Palestinians and throw them out of their homes, all because of their blood line?
Actually, I am anti-religious... and I believe Allah is too, and that He tolerates Religion so long as it leads to Goodness and the Shunning of Evil, but if it does the opposite, like the manifestations of the Inquisition or Zionism, of course these are abominations and exploitation of a perversion of Allah's Message to Mankind, which is Eeman in Allah and the shunning of Taghuut...
Peace and SalutationsWhat relegion are you talking about?
Islam is not a religion and we all have an individual responsibility before God Who clearly commands that we shun what is evil, like apartheid, and asks us rather sternly 'Why would you not help those who are oppressed and have been driven from their homes'? Allah does not say this about 'only those who follow our deen', no this is a general injunction. Is not the inhumane treatment of Sunni or Christian Palestinians exactly the kind of situation where God demands that we do our duty as Muslims and aid and protect them to the best of our ability?! Does this not fall under 'forbidding what is evil and promoting what is good; ie doing justice to whom ever is being denied that justice regardless of their creed?.You write to Huruf "dude you are hysterical and have issues?"
Huruf is not a "dude" but a very well versed, calm and collected articulate SISTER who cares about humanity. Do you have an issue with that?
peace -
IMHO, Peace
OK...
as there are many other millions upon millions oppressed on the lands... so why single out only the Palestinian cause, and why assuming things about me I did not say...
It seems you too have issues...
whatever, no matter our arguments, only certain factors will help, among them help from the Almighty, and He does seem unwilling to give it to this "muslim" generation...
maybe it is because they do not deserve it? maybe it is why Israel is more powerful and resourceful than them? why would they then be punished by such a fierce and powerful enemy (those who accept as the Romans christened them, Palestinians as a name)...
On the one hand you say Islam is not a religion, on the other hand you want Islam to help the Palestinians who might be incurring the wrath of Allah (as do the rest of the Arabs, and the "muslims" at large)...
Sorry dude or dudette, no victory without Allah's leave...
These are the facts, accept them or bang your head on a wall...
By the way, Peace unto you too...
Shalom, Salamun alaikum warahmatu Allah wabarakatuhu...
PS I understand you want to be a knight and help a damzel in distress
-
I just hope I can complete this thread before I am silenced.
Why the paranoia? Who gave you any indication that you would be silenced on this forum? It's just another thread with unconventional subject matter, don't worry.
-
Why the paranoia? Who gave you any indication that you would be silenced on this forum? It's just another thread with unconventional subject matter, don't worry.
But Yes, many wandering scholars have come with unconventional approaches on this forum and then shortly withered away.
-
IMHO, Peace
.......
maybe it is because they do not deserve it? maybe it is why Israel is more powerful and resourceful than them? why would they then be punished by such a fierce and powerful enemy (those who accept as the Romans christened them, Palestinians as a name)...It seems you too have issues...
PS I understand you want to be a knight and help a damzel in distress
Salaam Bro
According to your reasoning about the Palestinians, by the same token, the prophet and the first Muslims, were also being ?punished by such a fierce and powerful? enemy as the Meccans, when they were themselves powerless. The same would be true of all the prophets and their followers who were all denied and persecuted and driven from the land or killed by their ?fierce and powerful? enemies until God took them and destroyed them. Had God abandoned them too? No they were a trial for the unbelievers. Have you considered the possibility that your judgmental and callous attitude towards the suffering Palestinians might bring down the ire of God on your head ?dude??My issue is this surh below4;75
God asks you And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? men, women, and children, whose cry is "Our Lord! rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Thee one who will protect; and raise for us from Thee one who will help!"
I would happily be a ?knight? for these oppressed people; why wouldn?t you?Further, as brother Pazusu has pointed out in his well researched study, massive archaeological diggings up and down Palestine by no doubt Zionist archaeologists with a burning zeal to find proof of the legendary kingdom of Solomon has produced zilch. This is sufficient to conclude that Palestine was never the location of that fabled realm so ?Jews? have no business being there. They have more hope of finding their roots in southern Russia where their ?fierce and powerful people? first became ?Jews?.
peace -
But Yes, many wandering scholars have come with unconventional approaches on this forum and then shortly withered away.
I am sure of that, and I am sure you are honest in your appreciation, and I do not think you include Pazuzu amongst those, since he has been int he forum for some time.
I also think that too many things have been taken for granted without a thourough study in the Qur'an based on assumptions which may be have been justified at some time, or even now, but that noentheless, just like everything else, should be subjecto to scrutiny.
Also as a general remark, I think that the Qur'an does not put much weight on pursuing historical studies, rather uses wheatever events, which may be real or not, I do not know, to illustrate the sunna of God, and his laws. It is not like the Bible which, according to Christians redemption hangs on a particular specific person undergoing rtrials and dying for the rescue of Humanity at a specific date. That is not the case for the revelation made in the Qur'an. The events it may narrate are valid, independently of the historical specificity of them.
That Musa lived in this age or that or here or there, does not change the teachings if you change the dates or de place at will. Therefore for Muslims, to prove the historicity of such events is not important, though it may be interesting and useful and niche from the point of view of general knowledge, but not from the point of view of lending validity or invalidating the teachings therein.
But of course, for other than those who believe in the Quranic teachings, whateve the Qur'an is purorted to say on specific events, may be welcome or unwelcome. We should not be drawn on that kind of suits, it is nothing to do with us and as followeres of the Qur'an we do not have to uphold or not uphold anybody else's tenets. The pieces may fall on whatever side, that should not be of any imortance for us as far as the teachings of the Qur'an are concerned.
That said, of course, I believe that God does not make mistakes, neither historical nor of any other kind, but Qur'an is not a book of history, nor of science. It has a purpose and it is revealed so that it fulfills that purpose.
I am sure, I am speaking for the convinced of course, but a feel that these things should be brought to the fore with all the polemics about these questions.
Salaam
-
Dear huruf
Of course, the point of the "qasas" in the Quran (stories of past peoples) are simply to provide a cause for reflection, and to learn moral lessons from them. And that Quran is ultimately, a book of guidance, not history.
However, these events, whether true to the letter, or simply symbolic legends, MUST have a had a certain setting. They must have originated from somewhere. And that "somewhere" was sure as Hell not Palestine.
It is our DUTY to liberate Palestine from the clutches of Zionist tyranny. But this duty simply stems from the fact that someone hijacked their land and claimed it as their own. NOT because Palestine is a "Holy" land, from which Muhamad went to the 7th Heaven on the back of a winged horse.
The entire point of these threads I am making was to show you that whoever can forge the entire history of the region can sure as Hell forge your belief system, and corrupt Islam from the source. These people have existed since forever, and were the very same force (the unseen "power behind the throne" during the Umayyad Era, when Hadiths began to appear. The people who wrote these Hadiths are the SAME ones who corrupted the Torah.
The same enemy of humanity.
And I'm sure you know who I am referring to.
-
But Yes, many wandering scholars have come with unconventional approaches on this forum and then shortly withered away.
Must've lost interest.As far as this thread (and a wandering scholar in particular) goes, many of us are reading it eagerly. I would like to know how things came about the way they did, if it did originate in that area.
-
Dear huruf
Of course, the point of the "qasas" in the Quran (stories of past peoples) are simply to provide a cause for reflection, and to learn moral lessons from them. And that Quran is ultimately, a book of guidance, not history.
However, these events, whether true to the letter, or simply symbolic legends, MUST have a had a certain setting. They must have originated from somewhere. And that "somewhere" was sure as Hell not Palestine.
It is our DUTY to liberate Palestine from the clutches of Zionist tyranny. But this duty simply stems from the fact that someone hijacked their land and claimed it as their own. NOT because Palestine is a "Holy" land, from which Muhamad went to the 7th Heaven on the back of a winged horse.
The entire point of these threads I am making was to show you that whoever can forge the entire history of the region can sure as Hell forge your belief system, and corrupt Islam from the source. These people have existed since forever, and were the very same force (the unseen "power behind the throne" during the Umayyad Era, when Hadiths began to appear. The people who wrote these Hadiths are the SAME ones who corrupted the Torah.
The same enemy of humanity.
And I'm sure you know who I am referring to.
You certainly are right. historical frauds, rarely are innocent, y in the case of the Promised land and its sequels, it is obviously very guilty and we see which purposes it has served, and how much it has made a fool of many people, blessing "Israel" even when that label is pinned on murderers.
Salaam
-
IMHO,
Salam
LOL!
Now why would archeologists in Israel will waste their time digging if as many say they know the truth and they will find nothing?I can accept and understand you feel for the Palestinians, as I do for any beings oppressed on the planet... in my view they are no different than people in Rwanda, Congo, Chechnya, Tibet, Sri Lanka, Libya, etc and are as deserving of support as any others under tyranny and dictatorship...
You clearly have vested interests with Palestine, or at least huruf has... that is your issue, not mine, so please do not bring me into it...
What I claim, is if they (Palestinians), especially an organisation like Hamas, wish for Allah's help, and believe they can muster what Prophets and Believers of old did get as help and intervention from God, then they need to clean up their act and follow Allah's guidance in truth...
It is my right to assert an opinion, which is that I am not convinced they do... as always this is debatable, but the theology they follow, and the results speak for themselves...
and incidentally, the ball is in the air, and despite your seemingly hatred for the Jews, they too can be guided by the Quran and become Muslim, so please, you have no right to deny guidance to anybody... now who will be guided, if at all, only Allah knows...
I suggest you become a bit more humble, as you too seem pretty self righteous...
and who bashed the Palestinians, if you like to bask into a victim's mentality be my guest...
Finally, I have been a member of this forum for a very long time, just ask Nadia... not participating or being dormant does not mean not staying informed...
Now pazuzu is writing pretty controversial stuff, and he offered enough material so far to pique my curiosity... thus my involvement...
I already moved from ignorance to further ignorance with interests in religions, then to sunnism and then to enlightenment with Quran and Islam with non-Mekkah centrism, now let us see what the info pazuzu has boils down to... despite the fact I am healthily open to any change that is corroborated by facts, i.e. the Truth...Your threat that I be punished by Allah is empty and meaningless... as only He decides...
Also, maybe it is better we stop engaging together if we cannot be cool headed in our exchanges...Salaam...
Nabil
