Oceans, seas, rivers, springs, fountains
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I'm doing my own translation of Qur'an and want to be consistent throughout choose the best words perhaps some of you can help cross check; not worried how it sounds in English more focused on accuracy and non-contradiction.
Salaam,
Congrats on your project. May Allah help you.
I would like to contribute a little inshaAllah.Ya-Miim-Miim al-yami seems best as simply the flowing water
You wrote the meaning of "Al-yammi" as "the flowing water" above but you never used the same meaning in any of the aayaats you used i.e., 7136, 2039, 2078, 2097, 287, 2840
Ba-Ha-Ra = a vast expanse of water (i.e. ocean/sea)
The best definition of word "BAHAR" is in 1614
1614
1614 And He is the One who has commissioned the ocean, that you may eat from it a tender meat, and that you may extract from it ornaments that you wear. And you see the ships flowing through it, so that you may seek from His bounty, and that you may be thankful."Minhu" is used twice in this aayat. And Bahar means from which you may take out ornaments that you wear.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
This will cause translation loss. Both Arabic verb and Evglish word mean "to die or kill a person by immersion in water". When water is collected in huge quantity then it is not called water but is referred by other terms, lake, river, sea etc.
Peace Mazhar,
Thank you for your input; need to examine if al-yami is fresh/salt water?
Was this journey to a merger of large body of fresh water and the ocean?
Or to a junction of any two large bodies of water fresh/salty like it says?1860 and when said Moses to his boy/youth not I stop until I reach junction al-bryn the two large bodies of water or I go a long while
1861 so when they reached junction between them forgetful their fish so it took its way in al-br the large body of water slipping away
1862 so when they had passed beyond said to his boy/youth give us our breakfast truly we have suffered from our journey this one fatigue
1863 said have you seen when we rested to the rock so I forgot the fish and what/not made me forget it only the devil lest/that I remember it and it took its way in al-br the large body of water amazingly!
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvRtOYGMWV8
The fish was probably a type of Gourami walking fish which stay alive out of water for days.
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Salaam,
Congrats on your project. May Allah help you.
I would like to contribute a little inshaAllah.You wrote the meaning of "Al-yammi" as "the flowing water" above but you never used the same meaning in any of the aayaats you used i.e., 7136, 2039, 2078, 2097, 287, 2840
Peace and thank you mmkhan,
Wasn't sure of meaning if salt/fresh water and now leaning toward running water i.e. current.
The best definition of word "BAHAR" is in 1614
1614
1614 And He is the One who has commissioned the ocean, that you may eat from it a tender meat, and that you may extract from it ornaments that you wear. And you see the ships flowing through it, so that you may seek from His bounty, and that you may be thankful."Minhu" is used twice in this aayat. And Bahar means from which you may take out ornaments that you wear.
That would exclude lakes, rivers i.e. fresh water as in their meeting at the barrier...
2553 and He The One Who released al-bryn the two large bodies of water this one palatable sweet and this one salty bitter and made between them a barrier and a partition interdicted
Thus have it as any large body of water ...
1615 and He cast in the earth firm mountains lest/that it shake with you and rivers and paths that you may be guided
2761 or who made the earth a settlement and made within it rivers and made to it firm mountains and made between al-bryn the two large bodies of water a barrier is there any deity with The God nay most of them not who know
1432 The God the one who creation the skies and the earth and sent down from the sky water so brought forth with it from the fruits provision to you and subjected to you the ship so they sail in al-br the large body of water by His command and subjected to you the springs
Verses above eliminate rivers/streams and the springs as being part of al-br
2077 and surely We inspired to Moses that depart with my servants and show to them a path in al-br the large body of water dry not fearing overtaken and not afraid 2078 so followed them Pharaoh with his soldiers so covered them from al-yami (the flowing current?) what covered them
3127 and had that only in the earth from tree pens wal-br and the large body of water/ocean add to it from after it seven abr the large bodies of water/oceans (leading ?alif? denotes plural) not exhausted words The God indeed The God Dear Wise
These two have as geysers perhaps?
816 and when al-br (the geysers?) made to overflow
823 and when al-br (the geysers?) erupthttp//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileGeyser_video.ogv
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1860 and when said Moses to his boy/youth not I stop until I reach junction al-bryn the two large bodies of water or I go a long while
Peace Noon,
The word is definite. The specific location point where two have joined and become one. This happens only with rivers not seas. When two rivers coming from different directions meet at one point they retain their identity for some distance and a visible line remains between the two. After some distance they fully merge in each other and become one.
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Peace Noon,
The word is definite. The specific location point where two have joined and become one. This happens only with rivers not seas. When two rivers coming from different directions meet at one point they retain their identity for some distance and a visible line remains between the two. After some distance they fully merge in each other and become one.
Salaam
Right now I am in a place where we have a river, flowing from the mountains on the right side, which empties itself into the Meditterrainean sea. Standing by the sea side we can clearly see from a distance the identity of the two waters, the fresh water being brownish and the sea water blue.
peace -
Wasn't sure of meaning if salt/fresh water and now leaning toward running water i.e. current.
Salaam Noon,
I am not sure if we can find salt water rivers? I think rivers has fresh/sweat water. Most suitable translation of Al-Yammi is the running water I think. Allah knows best.
That would exclude lakes, rivers i.e. fresh water as in their meeting at the barrier...
Yes, that is what I wanted to point out that lakes are not included in the meaning of Al-Bahr. What will be the problem/contradiction if we translate Al-Bahr as ocean instead of large body of water?
These two have as geysers perhaps?
816 and when al-br (the geysers?) made to overflow
823 and when al-br (the geysers?) erupt816 similarly used in 526
I don't think "Sujjirat" means "made to overflow". Please take a look at 4072
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace Noon,
The word is definite. The specific location point where two have joined and become one. This happens only with rivers not seas. When two rivers coming from different directions meet at one point they retain their identity for some distance and a visible line remains between the two. After some distance they fully merge in each other and become one.
Peace Mazhar,
1860 and when said Moses to his boy/youth not I stop until I reach junction al-bryn the two large bodies of water or I go a long while
1861 so when they reached junction between them forgetful their fish so it took its way in al-br the large body of water slipping away
1862 so when they had passed beyond said to his boy/youth give us our breakfast truly we have suffered from our journey this one fatigue
1863 said have you seen when we rested to the rock so I forgot the fish and what/not made me forget it only the devil lest/that I remember it and it took its way in al-br the large body of water amazingly!
Not sure extent of the expedition/excursion although junction between them (i.e. two large bodies of water) could be something similar this place The Strait of Gibraltar...
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Top_of_the_Rock_of_Gibraltar.jpg/640px-Top_of_the_Rock_of_Gibraltar.jpg
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Strait_of_gibraltar.jpg
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Yes, that is what I wanted to point out that lakes are not included in the meaning of Al-Bahr. What will be the problem/contradiction if we translate Al-Bahr as ocean instead of large body of water?
Peace mmkhan,
Oceans or seven seas sounds nice in English prose ...
3127 and had that only in the earth from tree pens wal-br and the large body of water/ocean/sea add to it from after it seven abr oceans/seas (alif plural) not exhausted words The God indeed The God Dear Wise
Although ocean/sea refers to salt water only whereas Qur'an calls the two fresh and salty the same.
2553 and He The One Who released al-bryn the two large bodies of water this one palatable sweet and this one salty bitter and made between them a barrier and a partition interdicted
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Not sure extent of the expedition/excursion although junction between them (i.e. two large bodies of water) could be something similar this place...
If is not taken as assembly, in Urdu language sense, of two things at one point rather its correct meanings of becoming integral one unit, these pictures would become irrelevant to the fact stated.
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If is not taken as assembly, in Urdu language sense, of two things at one point rather its correct meanings of becoming integral one unit, these pictures would become irrelevant to the fact stated.
How so? We're only talking about scale so technically no difference other size of the two waters.
Edit I see what you mean, two merging into one and not a connection of the two.
I'll have to investigate this further.
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Salaam,
your translation will be as dubious as all the existing translations unless you give clear and full references to the source of each definition you apply to the Arabic text, the source must be clear and as early as possible to be the original definition that the text was written to convey, the rules of grammar must be examined to establish that the rules applied to modern Arabic are indeed relevant to the ancient Arabic of the time it was written. The most important aspect of a definitive translation is in the clear and easily referenced definitions, free of hadith, as the majority of translations are based upon hadith for definition, and we all know hadith is designed for corruptions.
The second point I'd think relevant is in attempting to use a word to describe a concept, this generates confusion; unless you are limited by space, which you are not, then present the concept of the Arabic term, as that was the original intent, even if that means writing 50 words in English, as you are conveying the understanding not a list of headings.
Anyway just my thoughts, I have expressed these same thoughts to Badar in his attempt to translate the Qur'an.
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Oceans or seven seas sounds nice in English prose ...
3127 and had that only in the earth from tree pens wal-br and the large body of water/ocean/sea add to it from after it seven abr oceans/seas (alif plural) not exhausted words The God indeed The God Dear Wise
Salaam brother Noon,
Thank you for making me aware of this beautiful aayat still I did not see any problem in using the word "oceans" just to make it clear that it does not include lakes...
Although ocean/sea refers to salt water only whereas Qur'an calls the two fresh and salty the same.
2553 and He The One Who released al-bryn the two large bodies of water this one palatable sweet and this one salty bitter and made between them a barrier and a partition interdicted
Recently I saw this aayat and wondering if there is two fresh and salt water in oceans. As I heard earlier that there is a part in ocean near Oman that has only sweat water in that large area into the ocean. Can someone please confirm this as I am not really sure about this.
May Allah guide us all to His true path and increase us in knowledge pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam brother Noon,
Thank you for making me aware of this beautiful aayat still I did not see any problem in using the word "oceans" just to make it clear that it does not include lakes...
Recently I saw this aayat and wondering if there is two fresh and salt water in oceans. As I heard earlier that there is a part in ocean near Oman that has only sweat water in that large area into the ocean. Can someone please confirm this as I am not really sure about this.
May Allah guide us all to His true path and increase us in knowledge pr
Mohammed M. KhanPeace mmkhan -- Google estuary where most of life on earth lives.
Also curious why below verse is written using "alif" and not with ya like the rest?
3512 and not be equal al-brn the two waters this one palatable sweet pleasant drink and this one salty bitter and from each you eat meat tender and you extract ornaments you wear it and you see the ship in it glide that you may seek from His bounty and that you may give thanks
1860 and when said Moses to his boy/youth not I stop until I reach junction al-bryn the two waters or I go a long while
2553 and He The One Who released al-bryn the two waters this one palatable sweet and this one salty bitter and made between them a barrier and a partition interdicted
2761 or who made the earth a settlement and made within it rivers and made to it firm mountains and made between al-bryn the two waters a barrier is there any deity with The God nay most of them not who know
5519 released al-bryn the two waters meeting
5520 between them a barrier not they transgress -
My understanding is that
- ba7r is not a cut term for sea or ocean. It could also mean a big river.
Nahr is not just river. It could mean stream, as the expression gradens run from beneath them streams.
So it is a question of size, not technical terms.
4715 If nhr is any river, why mention putrid waters?
Most probably speaks of a river empties itself in a sea/ ocean. Both are referred to as bhr. Another definition of a big river is where you fish and big boats can sail (steamers, e.g).
- yamm the body of these large rivers or seas, excluding shores and coasts
- ba7r is not a cut term for sea or ocean. It could also mean a big river.
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Salaam Samia -- it's been a while since the good ole days of inheritance verses and happy to see you back.
BTW, finally believe we figured those out, lol three years on three verses...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598748.msg287405#msg287405
I hope these don't take as long.
Peace
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Salaam Samia -- it's been a while since the good ole days of inheritance verses and happy to see you back.
BTW, finally believe we figured those out, lol three years on three verses...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598748.msg287405#msg287405
I hope these don't take as long.
Peace
Salaam Ndp
Thanks for the welcome. I am happy I am back again to the endless discussions, just like the good old days
I left a post on the link you provided....and I am afraid it is not yet over >