Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Comparing me to a wahabi is not going to deter me from debating you intelligently and speaking my mind.lol. I will speak what I know to be right and truthfully. To you is you way and to me is mine. As far as I am concerned you are dead wrong and are misinterpreting the Quran. Whether you are doing it deliberately or not only God knows.
429 O you who acknowledge, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade, which is mutually agreed by you. Do not kill yourselves; God is Compassionate towards you.
430 Whoever does so out of animosity and transgression, We will cast him into a fire; and this for God is very easy.What God is saying here in the Quran is not to deliberately consume you money unjustly and kill yourselves DELIBERATELY. To deliberately kill ourselves is a sin. ?And whosoever does that (kills self) with aggression and inequity? is the same thing. It means that if you deliberately kill yourselves you are committing sin. If you do it un-deliberately you are not committing sin. Very simple and no complexities like your interpretation. Do you see how simple the Quran is?
Regarding what Jesus allegedly said in Matthew 188 I don't think he meant literally to cut off your hand or foot!! What he allegedly said was a PARABLE Bigmo not a literal teaching. rotfl He didn't meant literal hands and foot in Matt 188, what he meant was practices and habits. If something is bad for you and provides no benefit of course it is best to forgo it.
Of course it is very easy for someone to lie and say that they didn't commit adultery!!! This punishment is meant for the believers!!! If you are a believer and are truly and sincerely sorry for the sin you committed than you will speak the truth and suffer the punishment!!! If you don't you will never be forgiven till you do so! If you are a believer and you have committed adultery you must suffer the punishment for your actions so that you will be redeemed in hereafter. Being damned in the hereafter is no joke brother. Being truthful and upholding the law is a spiritually responsibility that is not to be taken lightly. If a person is a true believer he or she will speak the truth. Regarding those who don't they will be damned in the hereafter.
No. It is not meant for people to mind there own business. The reason for the extreme measures to properly accuse a person of adultery is to prevent public shame, and damaging a person's image. The potential of forever damaging a person's REPUTATION is the main reason why God says that four witnesses must be found before you do the punishment.
I am very sorry if I seem a bit argumentative. Sometimes I wish I could force people to believe what i believe in because I want to see them succeed. In there succeeding I will succeed in the hereafter. Doing good deeds doesn't go unrewarded. When you have knowledge that is as clear as day like I do, you would want to tell others about the Way as well.
Peace,
Kevin
The part where you said that punishment here will abrogate the punishment in the hereafter sounds like Sunni Islam. elektro Thats what i meant that you might have came from a very religious and sectarian Islamic background. I came from that background too. Its been now almost 7 years I have been a Koranist and still there is elements of Sunni islam I need to pluck out. Its a time thing.
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I do not think a crime is the same as a sin. God punishes sins, and crimes may be punished by people.
Therefore I do not think that the 100 lashes and the need to confess, even if nobody acuses the zani is a part in being forgiven or not forgiven by God. It is the same thing as with any other crime. How guilty de person is, God knows, people do not. But if a crime is committed, mostly there must be a penalty, which people may attempt to fix as fairly as possible, but KNOW, they will never know. They simply protect or hope to protect a certain order in society, or they should.
In this sense, I do not think that there is a need to confess and get one hundred lashes in order to repent and be forgiven. The suffering of a repentant person is not measurable by us, and since the punishment is public, the suffering may extend to other people than the zani.
I think the reasons for confessing and being lashed inn order to be forgiven given by brother KDC501 are not stated either in the Qur'an. They may be right or wrong and there could be a lot to debate about it, but they are not expounded in the Qur'an.
The four witnesses is a deterrent for false acusations and slander, but nowhere it is recomended in the Qur'an and least said, that for adultery to be forgiven by God or by the zani self there must be the punishment for the crime and a confession. On the other hand the many intimations to not pry on people lives to me points in the other direction. That of course is not to say that zina is not something downright wrong, filthy and demeaning and the punishment alotted to it is an indication of its importante and harmfulness.
Salaam
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I do not think a crime is the same as a sin. God punishes sins, and crimes may be punished by people.
Therefore I do not think that the 100 lashes and the need to confess, even if nobody acuses the zani is a part in being forgiven or not forgiven by God. It is the same thing as with any other crime. How guilty de person is, God knows, people do not. But if a crime is committed, mostly there must be a penalty, which people may attempt to fix as fairly as possible, but KNOW, they will never know. They simply protect or hope to protect a certain order in society, or they should.
In this sense, I do not think that there is a need to confess and get one hundred lashes in order to repent and be forgiven. The suffering of a repentant person is not measurable by us, and since the punishment is public, the suffering may extend to other people than the zani.
I think the reasons for confessing and being lashed inn order to be forgiven given by brother KDC501 are not stated either in the Qur'an. They may be right or wrong and there could be a lot to debate about it, but they are not expounded in the Qur'an.
The four witnesses is a deterrent for false acusations and slander, but nowhere it is recomended in the Qur'an and least said, that for adultery to be forgiven by God or by the zani self there must be the punishment for the crime and a confession. On the other hand the many intimations to not pry on people lives to me points in the other direction. That of course is not to say that zina is not something downright wrong, filthy and demeaning and the punishment alotted to it is an indication of its importante and harmfulness.
Salaam
Exactly. Which is why Zani can not mean anything but adultery of some sort. Sin is not punishable since the Koran agve people the freedom to disbelieve and ridicule God and his prophets. We do not have apostasy laws or speech cesnoring for that reason.
A crime is something you committ against the "other". Its taking away somebody else's right. Either by slandering someone or stealing from them, or killing them wrongfully or oppressing them and forcing them into exile (as Mecca did). Adultery is seen in that light. A husband technically belongs to his wife and vice versa. But because adultery is complicated maybe the Koran tried to walk delicately on that.
Crime is punishable in the courts of man, while sin is punishable only by God.
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I do not think zina is just adultery. I think it is unlawful sex. That is sex without engagement, compromise, pact, commitment or whatever. Sex is something that has social repercussions. It is not indifferent and it does harm others or can do so. It is fun (when it is) but it is not just fun.
Salaam
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I do not think zina is just adultery. I think it is unlawful sex. That is sex without engagement, compromise, pact, commitment or whatever. Sex is something that has social repercussions. It is not indifferent and it does harm others or can do so. It is fun (when it is) but it is not just fun.
Salaam
I agree with you. What I guess I meant by adultery is cheating. Its actually betrayal but we call it cheating.
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I go away for only three years, come back and find that you are still discussing the meaning of "zina"? ;D
Zina has its origin in Hebrew and it means "the act of prostitute of the altar"; that's performing sex in public.
From the quraan, my understanding is that the act has to be known to people in order to be able NOT to marry those public performers. The evidence needed is the minimum requirement for a public 4 witnesses. Any other evidence, being it less than 4 witnesses, or even pregnancy, is not permitted, because the sin here is performing sex IN PUBLIC, even between married couple, and not the result of this sex.
The only exception of this evidence is when the spouse see their partner with another person. In this case, four oaths replace the four required witnesses, and a fifth oath to be cursed by the god if they were not telling the truth.
As for sex outside marriage, it is a sin, but not for the community to punish. Punishable crimes are those against the community. -
Huruf!!
How nice to be missed by youI visited the forum from time to time. I hope this time is not just a quick visit.
I subscribed to an Egyptian forum and was hoping to participate in both, but I was quickly absorbed in discussing my "bizarre" understanding without the help of traditions, hoping to promote quran only there. It was difficult at first but was worth the effort, and I think some got the point. -
I go away for only three years, come back and find that you are still discussing the meaning of "zina"? ;D
Zina has its origin in Hebrew and it means "the act of prostitute of the altar"; that's performing sex in public.
Salams
thats interesting etymology, but how are you ascertaing that zina meant this at the time when Quran was revealed? -
Salams
thats interesting etymology, but how are you ascertaing that zina meant this at the time when Quran was revealed?Salaam
I hope I understood your question.
Do you mean whether public sex existed or not? If it did, what was it called? Arabic was not an evolved language. Even now, we have lost the meaning of this word and are unable to come with another word that means "public sex".
Since the word has its origin in a language prior to Arabic, it means that this practice was common, and linked to religion. This has to be stopped.
Sex between two persons is not a thing that would be watched by four people! Spying is forbidden, houses should not be entered into without permission, therefore any evidence built on spying is not admissible by God. It would be obsolete to have a punishment for a crime that is impossible to prove. Not only that, but if you do not prove it you are punished. Porn is the only sexual act that meets this condition for evidence.
If we look at other punishable crimes, no specific evidence is required, so we can apply any evidence that's available, and permissible. -
Salaam
I hope I understood your question.
Do you mean whether public sex existed or not? If it did, what was it called? Arabic was not an evolved language. Even now, we have lost the meaning of this word and are unable to come with another word that means "public sex".
Since the word has its origin in a language prior to Arabic, it means that this practice was common, and linked to religion. This has to be stopped.
Sex between two persons is not a thing that would be watched by four people! Spying is forbidden, houses should not be entered into without permission, therefore any evidence built on spying is not admissible by God. It would be obsolete to have a punishment for a crime that is impossible to prove. Not only that, but if you do not prove it you are punished. Porn is the only sexual act that meets this condition for evidence.
If we look at other punishable crimes, no specific evidence is required, so we can apply any evidence that's available, and permissible.Salam sister Samia
This is very interesting. Can you share your conclusion of the translation of Zina a little more in-depth? What you are saying makes a lot of sense, it actually makes a lot of sense. It makes ALOT of sense when you remember pagan practices where public sex was part of many fertility rituals.....But since you are the first (that I heard at least) to interpret it into public sex I have a little doubt. Eventhough you are a new face to me I see by the sheer number of posts you have been around for a while, but I still would like to know where or how you came to your conclusion.
Please forgive me if I write this post as a challenge, it is not. I am merely looking for information, and not being able to read arabic I rely on knowledgable people like yourself to give their interpretations.
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I hope samia will answer because I always like to read her answers and I have profited a lot from her writings,
From my own accord I will say however that many people have interpreted zina as public sex, simply because of the four witnesses. ?How on earth by chance would anyone have four people around for such enterprise? Also the warnings and calls to restrain to the people after the ayas setting the punishment are a clear indication that nobody should watch around for anybody's virtue. So it really makes a lot of sense.
What Samia has added is the public part as an acknowledgement of a structured public sex performance activity, seems to me.
Salaam
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Thanks Huruf
Emil
As Huruf explained, I am not the only one, and probably not even the first, to understand so. It's a logical point.
This understanding is long held on free-minds.
This post was the easiest to find. Maybe not even the first post with this understandingThis again brings me to what exactly is "zina" as defined per al-qur'aan.
In my understanding, the punishment of lashes for "zina" is ONLY when the act is witnessed by 4 or more people (244, 2413). Thus, under this definition, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people (pornography), and a legally married couple having sex in front of 4 or more people would incur the same punishment.
Thus for me, according to al-qur'aan, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people, and "fahisha" would include fornication and adultery which has no "human" punishment (if not witnessed by 4 or more people) but is still haram/forbidden.
From this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=113271;topic=13453.0;last_msg=117619 -
Everyday you learn something new ) Thanks Samia
Ok since I am doer and not a thinker, please give me a little feedback if I got this right
• Zina means public sex. Unmarried or married does not matter
• Fahisha can be translated to lewdness. There is no stipulated punishment in the Quran for lewdness
• Zina is not Zina until it is witnessed by four.
• Fahisha becomes only punishable when witnessed by four
Now, Let me see if I got this straight, and like I said before, I am learning here so please do not think I am challenging, I just want to learn..........
If I and three of my mates actively decide (not stumble in by accident) to watch a couple having sex I could (after I watched them) report them to the "authorities" for committing the act of Zina. The couple will be punished for the act but I will not be punished for watching.
Because lewdness is not precisly described in the Quran it is up to the reader or perhaps community to decide what is and what is not lewd. It is very individual, some people feel everything but vaginal sex is lewd and some are more liberal. Lewdness is all in the mind and heart of each and everyone of us. (I am not suggesting the Quran is imperfect. On the contrary Allah shows us that we are allowed to feel and think freely and also so in what attracts us, but if we are to step over our own moral values we are also stepping over Allah's border of lewdness).
Anyways, a couple could invite another couple to do............together do you-know-what.........The traditional interpretation Zina=adultery would not allow this because a husband/wife having sex with another person is still considered adultery eventhough the husband/wife approves. But if Zina=public sex the adultery part is no longer valid, therefore we could share our husband/wife with another person.Please NOTA BENE that I am only speaking in theory. I am only talking about the punishments set out by God for mankind to enforce, I am on purpose not including any moral values. Only in theory people!
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Salaam
I hope I understood your question.
Do you mean whether public sex existed or not? If it did, what was it called? Arabic was not an evolved language. Even now, we have lost the meaning of this word and are unable to come with another word that means "public sex".
Since the word has its origin in a language prior to Arabic, it means that this practice was common, and linked to religion. This has to be stopped.
Sex between two persons is not a thing that would be watched by four people! Spying is forbidden, houses should not be entered into without permission, therefore any evidence built on spying is not admissible by God. It would be obsolete to have a punishment for a crime that is impossible to prove. Not only that, but if you do not prove it you are punished. Porn is the only sexual act that meets this condition for evidence.
If we look at other punishable crimes, no specific evidence is required, so we can apply any evidence that's available, and permissible.Sorry, i dont quite understand. Zina seems to be commonly defined as sex outside of marriage. Where are you getting your 'public sex' definition from for the time that Quran was revealed? a word can have a root meaning and also common usage that changes within a relatively short space of time ('gay' being a modern example, where the commonly understood meaning of the word changed radically in less than 50 years). So to use a definition that existed long before Quran isnt necessarily of help (it would also be helpful to know what your sources are regarding the pre-Quran definition). Is there not evidence that the word at the time was commonly known to mean sex outside of marriage? if not, why is it so usually defined that way now?
Also, It doesnt have to be public sex for 4 witnesses to witness two people having sex, people could walk in on people having extra marital sex. Also, if someone suspects their partner of commiting adultery, could they not catch them out with 3 other witnesses? why would this be a problem?
Also regarding 'lewdness', a husband can punish his wife for lewdness can he not (beating verse)?
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You do not have to apologize, even for challenging me. That's OK. We learn from each other, and I learn from imaginative minds
In the case where one with friends decide to watch a couple having sex. How did they get to watch them? By sneaking? We speak here about the permissibility of the evidence.
Lewdness in any form is prohibited, even in secret as per 6151. There is a difference between prohibition and punishment. Not everything that's prohibited is punishable by the authorities. Only crimes against the society or individuals are. The others are left to God to punish for or pardon.
The case of husband / wife is a very sensitive matter. For that, God allowed an alternative to 4 witnesses as per 246 considering it a grave crime against the other spouse that calls for punishment and end of marriage. Other relatives do not enjoy this benefit. They still have to come up with 4 witnesses.
The case of rape is treated wrongly in Muslim societies where 4 witnesses are required. This is a different crime, not zina, and should be proven by any means.
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Sorry, i dont quite understand. Zina seems to be commonly defined as sex outside of marriage.
I know. And I know that some believe that 4 witnesses are meant to make it difficult to punish people. We ended up with women only being punished for getting pregnant 4 witnesses is not respected here; and the partner could not be punished because there are no 4 witnesse. Do you see the problem with this definition of adultery and the discrepancy with the 4 witness when applied to other than public sex?
What's commonly defined is not necessarily the true definition. Muslims have been absorbed in studying hadith and other Islamic heritage at the expense of studying the qur'aan. Add to this the rampant illetracy in these countries, one can hardly speak of any serious study of any verse.
Where are you getting your 'public sex' definition from for the time that Quran was revealed? a word can have a root meaning and also common usage that changes within a relatively short space of time ('gay' being a modern example, where the commonly understood meaning of the word changed radically in less than 50 years). So to use a definition that existed long before Quran isnt necessarily of help (it would also be helpful to know what your sources are regarding the pre-Quran definition). Is there not evidence that the word at the time was commonly known to mean sex outside of marriage? if not, why is it so usually defined that way now?
If you have any document in Arabic at the time of the qur'aan, or even a century after it, with this word in use as adultery, I will change my mind.
Also, It doesnt have to be public sex for 4 witnesses to witness two people having sex, people could walk in on people having extra marital sex.
Have you ever walked in with your friends on people having sex, whether marital or extra? I haven't, although I lived in many countries and lived for quite a long time.
Also, if someone suspects their partner of commiting adultery, could they not catch them out with 3 other witnesses? why would this be a problem?
Also regarding 'lewdness', a husband can punish his wife for lewdness can he not (beating verse)?
- read 246
- No, he can't.
- Verse 434 ( beating verse) does not contain any word that relates to "lewdness".
- Verse 24 6 tells the spouse what to do when they accuse their partner, and how to overcome the 4-witness prerequisite.
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I think the public sex does not address the part of betrayal as its this, not the sex, that invokes a reaction. A reaction that often can lead to violence. Most of all it also breaks a family.
The goal of the verse is to stop people talking about the subject. Cause, even if a person witnessed something, and that very likely, he can't say anything because he needs other witnesses. He may be saying the truth, but in God's eyes, not humans, he is considered a liar. The verse itself came in the occassion as a rumor spread about some sexual misconduct.
Eevn if people are having public sex, who will complain? Its always the partner or spouse who will invoke some reaction. People can complain about public sex because of indecency. But the Koran can not talk abot lashing because of public decency, but it can when it comes to betrayal. Its just human nature that people can not handle their partner or spouse cheating on them with another. Public sex can be an orgy of people who couldn't care less.
Because of the violence that it brings, the issue is serious. It also can break a family perhaps more than anything else.
I am not sure about the pregnancy part. If a women gets pregnant so what? The important part here is identifying who the father is. But thats no violation of somebody else. The Koran tends to allow people to interfere when somebody else's right is violated. So I am not sure what pregnancy has to do with it other than proving that the women had sex either by her own decision or was forced into it.
I still see the verse primarily concerned with people slandering and involving themselves in other's affairs, while the adultery part is similar to Moses and the kill yourself verse. It may the right punishment , but its not easy to carry out. Its not easy to flog a woman, as the case in Sudan showed. Just like its not easy to kill yourself, even if that is the technical punishment. It shocked the nation as Sudanese only flog men.
Only people of strong discipline and faith can do that. Like Judas did in the Gospel. He did the right thing.