Dr. Subhi Mansour on the term "muhsanat" in the Koran
-
Good point. I was thinking about that the other day. Remember Sunnis believe that when Muhammad migrated with his followers to Medina, th e Medina folks "shared" their wives with the new arrivals. &
So you figure.
Hehe you gotta be kidding dear brother bigmo, do they really have a hadith about that rotfl and what was the purpose of sharing their wives with Muhammad and company? But then wife sharing is not forbidden according to sunnies???
-
Hehe you gotta be kidding dear brother bigmo, do they really have a hadith about that rotfl and what was the purpose of sharing their wives with Muhammad and company? But then wife sharing is not forbidden according to sunnies???
Narrated Sa'd's father When the emigrants reached Medina. Allah's Apostle established the bond of fraternity between 'Abdur-Rahman and Sad bin Ar-Rabi. Sad said to 'Abdur-Rahman, "I am the richest of all the Ansar, so I want to divide my property (between us), and I have two wives, so see which of the two you like and tell me, so that I may divorce her, and when she finishes her prescribed period (i.e. 'Idda) of divorce, then marry her." Abdur-Rahman said, "May Allah bless your family and property for you; where is your market?" So they showed him the Qainuqa' market. (He went there and) returned with a profit in the form of dried yogurt and butter. He continued going (to the market) till one day he came, bearing the traces of yellow scent. The Prophet asked, "What is this (scent)?" He replied, "I got married." The Prophet asked, "How much Mahr did you give her?" He replied, "I gave her a date-stone of gold or a gold piece equal to the weight of a date-stone." (The narrator, Ibrahim, is in doubt as to which is correct.) Bukhari
Narrated Anas When 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf came to us, Allah's Apostle made a bond of fraternity between him and Sad bin Ar-Rabi' who was a rich man, Sad said, "The Ansar know that I am the richest of all of them, so I will divide my property into two parts between me and you, and I have two wives; see which of the two you like so that I may divorce her and you can marry her after she becomes lawful to you by her passing the prescribed period (i.e. 'Idda) of divorce. 'Abdur Rahman said, "May Allah bless you your family (i.e. wives) for you." (But 'Abdur-Rahman went to the market) and did not return on that day except with some gain of dried yogurt and butter. He went on trading just a few days till he came to Allah's Apostle bearing the traces of yellow scent over his clothes. Allah's Apostle asked him, "What is this scent?" He replied, "I have married a woman from the Ansar." Allah's Apostle asked, "How much Mahr have you given?" He said, "A date-stone weight of gold or a golden date-stone." The Prophet said, "Arrange a marriage banquet even with a sheep." Bukhari
-
bigmoOh my god! These hadith actually say that your wives are your property so just go ahead and divorce them and give them to your friends. And not one word about what the wives thought about it. Who may have fabricated this nonsense hmm and more important how can sunnies believe in such crap?
-
bigmoOh my god! These hadith actually say that your wives are your property so just go ahead and divorce them and give them to your friends. And not one word about what the wives thought about it. Who may have fabricated this nonsense hmm and more important how can sunnies believe in such crap?
The idea is that they were so generous that they even shared their wives. Of course by divorcing them first. You are right, it shows the mentality we are dealing with here where a wife is seen as personal property.
There is more
I found that some Sunnis believe that a person can marry a "slave girl" and her sister too all at once. hypno
This is what I call a screwed up mentality.
Meanhwile they catch you with a beer or a marijuana joint then you are toast.
-
The idea is that they were so generous that they even shared their wives. Of course by divorcing them first. You are right, it shows the mentality we are dealing with here where a wife is seen as personal property.
There is more
I found that some Sunnis believe that a person can marry a "slave girl" and her sister too all at once. hypno
This is what I call a screwed up mentality.
Meanhwile they catch you with a beer or a marijuana joint then you are toast.
The sunnites have made a terrible mockery out of religion with all their hypocrisy and sick mentality.
I wonder what Mohammed would think if he heard that they accuse him of being a wife-sharer o oSAVE HUMANITY & MOHAMMED FROM THE SUNNI-DISEASE muscle muscle
-
LOl! To be fair its not easy understanding every verse and term in Koran.
However I believe that Ma Malakat Aymanukum means concubine as understood in semitic tradition. Concubines are like Hagar and Queen Sheeba in the Bible. A marriage without dowry.
Says who?
Definitely not God4 24
And an already married man cannot marry a MMA. Polygamy is very restricted. Taking a MMA is not mentioned as a condition for polygamy. The qur'aan always speak of "your/their spouses OR your/their MMA". Never both of them. It's a marriage albeit for a specific people, those who are unable to consummate marriage (425). They enter into a MMA marriage and they and their spouses are milku yameen each other. That's why only in this case is the family's permission mentioned. They have to know what their son/ daughter is up to and that they are going to marry some one who cannot consummate marriage.
The muhsan, is therefore, the opposite immune of this disability. (muhsan means immune).
-
Says who?
Definitely not God4 24
And an already married man cannot marry a MMA. Polygamy is very restricted. Taking a MMA is not mentioned as a condition for polygamy. The qur'aan always speak of "your/their spouses OR your/their MMA". Never both of them. It's a marriage albeit for a specific people, those who are unable to consummate marriage (425). They enter into a MMA marriage and they and their spouses are milku yameen each other. That's why only in this case is the family's permission mentioned. They have to know what their son/ daughter is up to and that they are going to marry some one who cannot consummate marriage.
The muhsan, is therefore, the opposite immune of this disability. (muhsan means immune).
Very intresting Samia. Your analyse is also very logical, since its not all people who are able to consummate marriages. Muhsanat hence means women immune ?
-
Muhsanat hence means women immune ?
And men, too.
The masculine address is not just to males. Females are also included.
From verse 421 the address is to the general public, men and women. The prohibition applies to both. When it says "your mothers are prohibited upon you" it would mean to a women "your fathers are prohibited to you". A mother by nursing to a male will be the husband of the mother who nursed to a female.
From verse 424, the theme of prohibition continues with change of addressee. Here, men and women who are able and willing to consummate marriage (muhsans) are prohibited upon those who are unable or unwilling to, (those who the verse is addressing now) except those among the muhsans, i.e the able and willing, who accept to enter this "sexless" marriage marriage by oath. In this case, the families should also be involved to advise and to take notice. -
Thank you Samia, for your valuable explanations. Its great to see your posts again.
Thanks for the nice words Tlepsh
Yesterday I was reading a topic and came across some of your posts. I was quite pleased when I found that you were still posting and did not disappear like me -[
-
And men, too.
The masculine address is not just to males. Females are also included.
From verse 421 the address is to the general public, men and women. The prohibition applies to both. When it says "your mothers are prohibited upon you" it would mean to a women "your fathers are prohibited to you". A mother by nursing to a male will be the husband of the mother who nursed to a female.
From verse 424, the theme of prohibition continues with change of addressee. Here, men and women who are able and willing to consummate marriage (muhsans) are prohibited upon those who are unable or unwilling to, (those who the verse is addressing now) except those among the muhsans, i.e the able and willing, who accept to enter this "sexless" marriage marriage by oath. In this case, the families should also be involved to advise and to take notice.Wao thank you soooo much Samia! I ALWAYS woundered why the prohibition of incest was only limited to men, and not to women, hence I once got the thought that maybe God does not got any problem with women sleeping with their fathers or brothers lol. But your explanation made sense to me. thanks again,
-
Should we not repace it with "your sons". "your fathers" would go with "your daughters".
When read in Arabic, the address is to the masculine do not marry your mother.
If we split the address and make it just to the female, it has to be do not marry your fathers.
There is also do not marry your daughters, which will then be do not marry your sons.This will become like the following to the female
-
235-6 Implies sex with MMA is fine.
423-24 Limits marriage to only with MMAs thus making the Muhsinat women forbidden for marriage
2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage abstain, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful2433 either implies let those who don't have the means to get married abstain either from a)sex b) Marriage
I think it's marriage in this case since in 235-6 sex with MMA is ok and the verse says if you don't have the means to get married abstain but would it make more sense to abstain from getting married or to abstain from having sex (if it is a case that you don't have sufficient wealth to start a marriage)Here is a part from another thread. O stands for objection A stands for answer
O Why then are there guidelines in marriage such as the waiting period and not for MMA?
A A marriage oath is different to an MMA oath. Thus if they are not the same things then they will not have the same guidelines.O That would then mean that if a child that is born outside of pregnancy, then the father has no responsibility as opposed to the guideline for marriage where the father is responsible.
A This was the best objection (IMO)
Let?s look at 2233 And the mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. A soul is not burdened except with what it can bear. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and counsel, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of God, and know that God is watching over what you do.This verse applies to ALL mothers and ALL fathers. This is not about marriage alone. This is clear by the fact that there is no mention of married mothers or married husbands but more importantly it is made clearer by the fact that separation used in this verse is not the word talagh (divorce) where as in cases related to marriages the word talagh is used. This means that this verse encompasses cases of marriages as well outside of marriage.
O This verse occurs in a place where guidelines are set for marriages thus this verse is for marriages alone.
A The words of the verse convey otherwise. It makes clear that this verse is about ALL mothers and ALL fathers whether within marriage or outside it.IMO, the most sensible option is that sex before marriage is ok so long as it is within an oath that is relevant like in a sexual relationship. How strong this oath should be is kinda controversial but assuming a good character, it would be a very strong oath before they consider sex. There are problems with this understanding but they can be resolved if we don't narrow the meaning of MMA to just one thing. Given that we don't narrow it down, the implications for sex outside of marriage are pretty strong IMO.
A question of possbile interest How can we expose our private parts to a doctor without going against the Quran? The only way i can think of is if we gave the doctor consent and thus they would be an MMA. But this MMA is different to the one discussed earlier since the nature of the oath is different.
Peace
-
235-6 Implies sex with MMA is fine.
423-24 Limits marriage to only with MMAs thus making the Muhsinat women forbidden for marriage
2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage abstain, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful2433 either implies let those who don't have the means to get married abstain either from a)sex b) Marriage
I think it's marriage in this case since in 235-6 sex with MMA is ok and the verse says if you don't have the means to get married abstain but would it make more sense to abstain from getting married or to abstain from having sex (if it is a case that you don't have sufficient wealth to start a marriage)Here is a part from another thread. O stands for objection A stands for answer
IMO, the most sensible option is that sex before marriage is ok so long as it is within an oath that is relevant like in a sexual relationship. How strong this oath should be is kinda controversial but assuming a good character, it would be a very strong oath before they consider sex. There are problems with this understanding but they can be resolved if we don't narrow the meaning of MMA to just one thing. Given that we don't narrow it down, the implications for sex outside of marriage are pretty strong IMO.A question of possbile interest How can we expose our private parts to a doctor without going against the Quran? The only way i can think of is if we gave the doctor consent and thus they would be an MMA. But this MMA is different to the one discussed earlier since the nature of the oath is different.
Peace
I see MMA as a concubine. Which is the same as a legal wife but without the dowry or formalities.
Hagar was a concubine.
In ancient times, a concubine was a woman living in a lawful marriage arrangement with a man, but whose status was regarded as being less than a wife. Concubines were respected, had legal rights, and their children were regarded as legitimate, although the children of the wife (or wives) were most often given preference in matters of inheritance. While the inability of a wife to have children was a practical reason for the presence of a concubine in the family (e.g. Sarah suggested that her husband Abraham take Hagar as a concubine i.e. Genesis 161-3), the situation also sometimes reached absurd proportions, such as with Solomon who had 300 concubines along with his 700 wives (1 Kings 113).
Examples of concubines in Bible History"Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country." (Genesis 255-6 RSV)
"Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring, for he had many wives. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech." (Judges 830-31 RSV)
Four of the tribes of Israel (Dan and Naphtali, and Gad and Asher) originated from Jacob's concubines Bilhah and Zilpah. See Children of Jacob
"Now Saul had a concubine, whose name was Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah." (2 Samuel 37 RSV)
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem, after he came from Hebron; and more sons and daughters were born to David." (2 Samuel 513 RSV)
"Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened." So they pitched a tent for Absalom upon the roof; and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." (2 Samuel 1621-22 RSV)
"King Belshazzar made a great feast for a thousand of his lords, and drank wine in front of the thousand. Belshazzar, when he tasted the wine, commanded that the vessels of gold and of silver which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem be brought, that the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them." (Daniel 51-2 RSV) (see The Writing On The Wall)
http//www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010114.htm
Its a marriage established by oath only hence "right hand possesed".
-
I see MMA as a concubine. Which is the same as a legal wife but without the dowry or formalities.
What is your understanding for MMA in verse 3355?
033.055
La junaha AAalayhinna fee aba-ihinna wala abna-ihinna wala ikhwanihinna wala abna-i ikhwanihinna wala abna-i akhawatihinna wala nisa-ihinna wala ma malakat aymanuhunna waittaqeena Allaha inna Allaha kana AAala kulli shay-in shaheedan
YUSUFALI There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (slaves) whom their right hands possess. And, (ladies), fear Allah; for Allah is Witness to all things.
PICKTHAL It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves. O women! Keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things.
SHAKIR There is no blame on them in respect of their fathers, nor their brothers, nor their brothers' sons, nor their sisters' sons nor their own women, nor of what their right hands possess; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is a witness of all things.
KHALIFA The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things. -
What is your understanding for MMA in verse 3355?
033.055
La junaha AAalayhinna fee aba-ihinna wala abna-ihinna wala ikhwanihinna wala abna-i ikhwanihinna wala abna-i akhawatihinna wala nisa-ihinna wala ma malakat aymanuhunna waittaqeena Allaha inna Allaha kana AAala kulli shay-in shaheedan
YUSUFALI There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (slaves) whom their right hands possess. And, (ladies), fear Allah; for Allah is Witness to all things.
PICKTHAL It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves. O women! Keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is ever Witness over all things.
SHAKIR There is no blame on them in respect of their fathers, nor their brothers, nor their brothers' sons, nor their sisters' sons nor their own women, nor of what their right hands possess; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is a witness of all things.
KHALIFA The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things.MMA is an arrangement between two people. So both are part of the MMA. Its a relationship established mainly by oath only. So both are MMA of each other. Notice this translation had to add the term "female". Why does the "slave" has to be female? Because it is inconceivable that a women bares herself to her male slave. So they had to add "female".
All the rest of the charachters in the verse are family members except for the slave. The reality is slaves are bought and sold and are not necessarily attached to a family.
-
All the rest of the charachters in the verse are family members except for the slave. The reality is slaves are bought and sold and are not necessarily attached to a family.
If I understand you correctly, the MMA in verse 3355 is referring to slave or servant. Please confirm.
-
MMA is an arrangement between two people. So both are part of the MMA. Its a relationship established mainly by oath only. So both are MMA of each other. Notice this translation had to add the term "female". Why does the "slave" has to be female? Because it is inconceivable that a women bares herself to her male slave. So they had to add "female".
Only the translation by Khalifa has the "female" inserted before "servant", without any justification.
Isn't this "Rashad Khalifa"?!The others inserted "female" before the main verb of address, and that's correct, since the address is explicitly directed to females.
-
Only the translation by Khalifa has the "female" inserted before "servant", without any justification.
Isn't this "Rashad Khalifa"?!The others inserted "female" before the main verb of address, and that's correct, since the address is explicitly directed to females.
Maybe then that is why the Arabs use to castrate their slaves so the women can expose herself to them. Quite insane.