Third Salah explained in 17:78
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This has been bothering me for a long, long time. I ignored it for a while, deferring my own opinion to the more esteemed opinions of the many translators.
1778
Arberry Perform the prayer at the sinking of the sun to the darkening of the night and the recital of dawn;
Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn.
Yusuf Ali Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading
Shakir Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation;
Asad Be constant in prayer from the time when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and recitation at dawn
What I cannot understand is why "li" here in "li-duluuk il-shams" is translated as "at" or "from".
"li" means "to"
To me it always reads as
"perform the prayer to the setting of the sun, to the darkness of the night"
Surely it would say "min" instead if it really meant "from the setting of the sun"? Like "min duluuk il-shamsi ilaa ghasaq..." ?
The problem here is that the Arabic of the time did not have commas. So whereas in English I'd be telling you that I went to the supermarket and bought eggs, milk, and bread; in Arabic I'd tell you that I went to the supermarket and bought eggs and milk and bread and juice and apples and......no commas, you can use AND (wa) as much as you want.
Basically what I'm asking is whether it should be read with commas between 3 different time periods or whether it is 1 time period being described (setting sun to darkness) followed by the fajr part. My belief is that there is no reason to assume it is talking about 1, and that in all likelihood it is indeed talking about 3 different timings the setting of the sun, the darkness of the night, and the reading of Quran at dawn. I believe that one of them (li or ila) could have a sense of time proximity more than the other, but that requires more study.
Your thoughts?
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This has been bothering me for a long, long time. I ignored it for a while, deferring my own opinion to the more esteemed opinions of the many translators.
1778
Arberry Perform the prayer at the sinking of the sun to the darkening of the night and the recital of dawn;
Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn.
Yusuf Ali Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading
Shakir Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation;
Asad Be constant in prayer from the time when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and recitation at dawn
What I cannot understand is why "li" here in "li-duluuk il-shams" is translated as "at" or "from".
"li" means "to"
To me it always reads as
"perform the prayer to the setting of the sun, to the darkness of the night"
Surely it would say "min" instead if it really meant "from the setting of the sun"? Like "min duluuk il-shamsi ilaa ghasaq..." ?
The problem here is that the Arabic of the time did not have commas. So whereas in English I'd be telling you that I went to the supermarket and bought eggs, milk, and bread; in Arabic I'd tell you that I went to the supermarket and bought eggs and milk and bread and juice and apples and......no commas, you can use AND (wa) as much as you want.
Basically what I'm asking is whether it should be read with commas between 3 different time periods or whether it is 1 time period being described (setting sun to darkness) followed by the fajr part. My belief is that there is no reason to assume it is talking about 1, and that in all likelihood it is indeed talking about 3 different timings the setting of the sun, the darkness of the night, and the reading of Quran at dawn. I believe that one of them (li or ila) could have a sense of time proximity more than the other, but that requires more study.
Your thoughts?
The proper translation of this verse has always been a wonder to me. Unfortunately I do not speak enough arabic, I can only pick out bits and pieces. Also the translation would need to be from a classical perspective and not modern arabic as there may have been some changes in the understanding of particular words.
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I don't believe in prayers and I dunno arabic but I BET that this means Be committed from the dawn to the night. That's just my belief though
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Also the translation would need to be from a classical perspective and not modern arabic as there may have been some changes in the understanding of particular words.
That's a good point. It is possible, but in modern usage it definitely means "to the setting of the sun, to the darkness of the night". And I would be very surprised if this has changed.
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Peace ths, Peace all,
I understand the point made above about items in a sentence being separated by a comma; among its many functions, the particle "wa" serves the purpose of separating items in a sentence.
Thus, if the times mentioned in 1778 were 3 separate times , we would read "2aqimi '9-9alaata li-dulooki 'sh-shamsi wa-2ilaa 3'asaqi 'l-layli wa-qur2aana 'l-fajri...". Here the "wa" separates the verb from the preposition, so it actually doesn't make much sense, much like, "Usamah went and to the town." instead of "Usamah went to the town."
Whereas what we actually read are two inseparable clauses in one sentence, so the verse can be translated thus
"Establish the Salaah at the sun?s approach to the horizon until the darkness of night, and the Quran/reading of dawn. The Quran/reading of dawn is/was witnessed."
I would like to make 4 points about this verse
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The word "qur2aan" is in the accusative case (it has a fat7a) so this means it is governed by the imperative "2aqim", which is why I put the second "establish" in square brackets.
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The word "qur2aan" bears 2 meanings a. "the act of reading" (as a verbal noun), b. "the Quran" (as a name of a book).
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The preposition "li" which prefixes "dulook" is called by the grammarians "laamu 't-ta2ree5", that is, "The Laam of Temporal Proximation", and thus it has the meaning of "at" only when it prefixes temporal events, like night, day, sunset, sunrise, morning, evening, month, year etc.. In all other places, it usually means "to".
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The verb "kaana" bears 2 meanings a. "was" (as a perfect verb), b. "is" (as an imperfect indicative verb). This is why I have rendered "kaana" as "is/was"; but in all probability, I think the Author intended the meaning of "is" and not "was", thus we should read "The Quran/reading of dawn is witnessed."
Peace!
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Salaam Uq,
Thanks for the great response. This is what I was looking for.
I asked several friends about it, and they all came out with the same impression as me. And all of us are arabs.
It's a testament to the complexity of the language that this sort of thing never occurs in english.I understand the point made above about items in a sentence being separated by a comma; among its many functions, the particle "wa" serves the purpose of separating items in a sentence.
Thus, if the times mentioned in 1778 were 3 separate times , we would read "2aqimi '9-9alaata li-dulooki 'sh-shamsi wa-2ilaa 3'asaqi 'l-layli wa-qur2aana 'l-fajri..."
This could be the case, but is this a steadfast rule? I'll try to keep an eye out in the future for meanings that are separated without 'wa'.
I know that wa is used a lot, but I was under the impression that it can be done both ways, with the wa or without, and that the correct meaning would have to simply be gleaned off of the context.- The word "qur2aan" bears 2 meanings a. "the act of reading" (as a verbal noun), b. "the Quran" (as a name of a book).
But it says Quran, not Qur2an. I haven't looked into the matter. Most translators translate it as the reading of the qur2an, but one sunni friend told me that according to tafseer it simply means the fajr salah.
. The preposition "li" which prefixes "dulook" is called by the grammarians "laamu 't-ta2ree5", that is, "The Laam of Temporal Proximation", and thus it has the meaning of "at" only when it prefixes temporal events, like night, day, sunset, sunrise, morning, evening, month, year etc.. In all other places, it usually means "to".
Another one!? I've come across the lam al-3aaqibah and lam il ta3lil and some others. The lam seems to be the most complicated letter in the entire alphabet
I've come across this page and this page before whilst digging up information on lam, but neither mentions lam al-ta2reekh. Although I'll double check later.- The verb "kaana" bears 2 meanings a. "was" (as a perfect verb), b. "is" (as an imperfect indicative verb). This is why I have rendered "kaana" as "is/was"; but in all probability, I think the Author intended the meaning of "is" and not "was", thus we should read "The Quran/reading of dawn is witnessed."
I read it as has always been / has been / or something thereof
Question what is the reasoning behind the usage of lam al ta2reekh rather than simply "min"? Does it have a sense of time proximity that min does not?
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Peace ths peace
Recommended post (for support for the middle prayer)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603015.20 -
