Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Salaam Samia,
Can you please get the aayaats of your understanding on the above highlighted part? Or do you mean to say that it is punishable by Allah not naas!
I wish there are verses that say shirk is such and such. But remember that believers can aslo be mushriks as per this verse (6151)
The first command of the verses of the Straight Path where the absolute prohibitions are mentioned is do not set idols beside the God. My understanding is that since what follows are absolute prohibitions, i.e there are no if's or but's as in other prohibitions of eating pork or drinking alcohol, any one who does not respect these prohibitions is a moshrik, because they would say yes I killed him because he raped my daughter or because she betrayed me with another man..e.g, thus setting the rule of his ego above the rule of God who does not allow killing for these reasons. All these absolute prohibitions when not respected are being committed for another rule. This is shirk. And they are all against the community and thus call for punishment. No wonder that you can never find a constitution in the world that allows any of the clauses of the Straight Path or at least not restrict them.As per my understanding it is referring to two men. If not, please clarify it for me.
Al-laziiy = single person
Al-lazaani = two persons as it is "mathna " of al-laziiy
Al-lazaiiyni = two persons as it is also "mathna " of al-laziiy
Al-lazeena = plural either three or more than threeMay Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. KhanYou forgot the combinations which take the non gendered masculine. A female and a male are also al-lazaani. Just like the "minkum" which does not necessarily address men only. We have to take into consideration who is being addressed here. These "two" are from the group being addressed.
We should also take into consideration Justice as an important attribute of God. Is it fair to set different punishment to the same crime based on gender only? Is this a sunnah of allah? Doesn't He set the same punishment for zani and zania; and he-thief and she-thief? Are the two punishments mentioned for them (feminine) and the two (of you) even comparable? -
Samia
It's interesting that you mention fatherless children "yatamaa". The qur'aan sets a solution for them, but not a punishment for the parents in verse 43, erroneously considered as a green light to polygamy without restrictions.
And whats qurans solution for motherless ''yatama'' children? Polyandry with or without restrictions?
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I go away for only three years, come back and find that you are still discussing the meaning of "zina"? ;D
Zina has its origin in Hebrew and it means "the act of prostitute of the altar"; that's performing sex in public.
From the quraan, my understanding is that the act has to be known to people in order to be able NOT to marry those public performers. The evidence needed is the minimum requirement for a public 4 witnesses. Any other evidence, being it less than 4 witnesses, or even pregnancy, is not permitted, because the sin here is performing sex IN PUBLIC, even between married couple, and not the result of this sex.
The only exception of this evidence is when the spouse see their partner with another person. In this case, four oaths replace the four required witnesses, and a fifth oath to be cursed by the god if they were not telling the truth.
As for sex outside marriage, it is a sin, but not for the community to punish. Punishable crimes are those against the community.I agree with you 100%. The four witness requirements clearly shows that we are talking about public sex, or husband swapping or wife swapping act.
A woman who cheats her husband and sleeps with another man or vice versa, its NOT up to the community to punish her, its only God who can do that, and the husband of course have the right to either forgive her or divorce her. So Simple is that.
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Samia
And whats qurans solution for motherless ''yatama'' children? Polyandry with or without restrictions?
To marry their mother and thus give the children a father figure and a chance to integrate in society. This is the sole condition for polygamy. The basic command is to marry the singles (2432), but absolute conditions require absolute measures.
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To marry their mother and thus give the children a father figure and a chance to integrate in society. This is the sole condition for polygamy. The basic command is to marry the singles (2432), but absolute conditions require absolute measures.
You missed my point. Do you know what polyandry means? Polyandry means a marriage where a woman has multiple husbands. I am talking about children who lost their mothers. Whats the quranic solution for them? Can a married woman marry their father and thus give the children a mother figure and a chance to integrate in society?
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You missed my point. Do you know what polyandry means? Polyandry means a marriage where a woman has multiple husbands. I am talking about children who lost their mothers. Whats the quranic solution for them? Can a married woman marry their father and thus give the children a mother figure and a chance to integrate in society?
I know what polyandry is. But I thought you knew what a fatherless child is. I do not mean an orphan. This is not a fatherless child. A father can deny his child and claim it was not his and disappears. Never heard of a mother who denies a child and claims she is not his mother and disappears, leaving it with the father... confused
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I know what polyandry is. But I thought you knew what a fatherless child is. I do not mean an orphan. This is not a fatherless child. A father can deny his child and claim it was not his and disappears. Never heard of a mother who denies a child and claims she is not his mother and disappears, leaving it with the father... confused
but we have widow men right? And in cases of divorce it have been seen that the father gets the costudy of the children and the mother runs away with some other men. so in every society you would find children without mothers. Now can a married woman marry their father and give a mother figure to these children as well (polyandry). ?
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but we have widow men right? And in cases of divorce it have been seen that the father gets the costudy of the children and the mother runs away with some other men. so in every society you would find children without mothers. Now can a married woman marry their father and give a mother figure to these children as well (polyandry). ?
But I am not speaking of widows or widowers. Polygamy is not to solve adults problems. They have choices and they can solve their problems. Even their children will not have problems that have to be solved by their parent getting married. If it's an economical problem, they are not different from other poor children with parents.
As I mentioned before, it's a solution to children who do not have fathers, not orphans who had fathers but died. It's to give them a father's figure who will help them integrate in the society like any other child. This is why it's about marrying their mothers, not fathers. There is no such a thing as a motherless child. Even if there were mothers who leave the child and disappear, this child does not have a problem. He already has a name. and a father. Single fathers are either widowers or divorced. Single mothers are either widows, divorced or mothers of fatherless children. It is these children who may have a problem integrating in the society.
Of course this is no more a problem in the West. The government and the society took care of it, so there is no "fear of being unfair to fatherless children" and thus no need for polygamy. -
But I am not speaking of widows or widowers. Polygamy is not to solve adults problems. They have choices and they can solve their problems. Even their children will not have problems that have to be solved by their parent getting married. If it's an economical problem, they are not different from other poor children with parents.
As I mentioned before, it's a solution to children who do not have fathers, not orphans who had fathers but died. It's to give them a father's figure who will help them integrate in the society like any other child. This is why it's about marrying their mothers, not fathers. There is no such a thing as a motherless child. Even if there were mothers who leave the child and disappear, this child does not have a problem. He already has a name. and a father. Single fathers are either widowers or divorced. Single mothers are either widows, divorced or mothers of fatherless children. It is these children who may have a problem integrating in the society.
Of course this is no more a problem in the West. The government and the society took care of it, so there is no "fear of being unfair to fatherless children" and thus no need for polygamy.Your argument is illogical. Do you assume that we dont have children without mothers ? Giving children a mother doesn't it help them integrate in the society as well? How does a child whos father ran away become more integrated in the society by having a step father than a motherless child whos mother ran away and now has a step mother?
And secondly you say that motherless children does not have a problem because they have a name. So you mean that this whole polygyny issue is about giving someone a name? So a married man shall cheat on his wife and sleep with the mother of a orphan in order to give that orphan a name ?? There is something wrong with the logic in this argument. I am sorry to say it, but I think its AS important for a child to have a mother as a father, or maybe it can be argued that its more important for a child to in fact have a mother, since its the mother who spends more time with the child. -
Your argument is illogical. Do you assume that we dont have children without mothers ? Giving children a mother doesn't it help them integrate in the society as well? How does a child whos father ran away become more integrated in the society by having a step father than a motherless child whos mother ran away and now has a step mother?
And secondly you say that motherless children does not have a problem because they have a name. So you mean that this whole polygyny issue is about giving someone a name? So a married man shall cheat on his wife and sleep with the mother of a orphan in order to give that orphan a name ?? There is something wrong with the logic in this argument. I am sorry to say it, but I think its AS important for a child to have a mother as a father, or maybe it can be argued that its more important for a child to in fact have a mother, since its the mother who spends more time with the child.Since you speak of a child whose mother ran away and belittle the importance of a name to a child, I understand that you are unable to get what I mean. will have to put it in another way. In the past, in England for example, these children were called bastards, illegitimate children, s.o.b, s.o w....I suppose you know of that. What does that mean? Could a child living with his father be treated that way? I am not talking political incorrectness here, and don't say mother and father are the same, because what I believe or what you believe is not what many societies believed or still believe. Mothers killed their babies to avoid, and make the baby avoid such a life. There are also children resulting from rape. All these children have mothers and no fathers. They are still a problem in many societies, especially in the middle east and Muslim countries where some of them lash the mother or even kill her and no one would take the "illegitimate child". Does this happen to children accepted by their fathers even if the mother fled away with a lover? Would this father have a problem getting married? No. Why then should his problem be solved by an already married woman? As for the mother of an illegitimate child, her marriage can be very problematic and the burden will fall on the child. Here comes this solution as the last resort.
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I agree with you 100%. The four witness requirements clearly shows that we are talking about public sex, or husband swapping or wife swapping act.
A woman who cheats her husband and sleeps with another man or vice versa, its NOT up to the community to punish her, its only God who can do that, and the husband of course have the right to either forgive her or divorce her. So Simple is that.
"A woman who cheats her husband and sleeps with another man or vice versa, its NOT up to the community to punish her, its only God who can do that, and the husband of course have the right to either forgive her or divorce her. So Simple is that"
That is very naive. rotfl
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE4gGtpcGno
http//www.break.com/usercontent/2006/12/20/bike-racer-caught-cheating-198063
http//www.metacafe.com/watch/442607/guy_films_himself_cheating_and_gets_caught/
http//www.break.com/index/wife-caught-cheating.html#
http//mytings.net/video/cheating-husband-beaten-up-by
Its worse than stealing.
My favorite
http//dumpalink.com/videos/This-Guy-got-Caught-Cheating-on-his-Girl-6fd7.html
Koranic justice at its best
http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-iJFY46Db9HQ/Tkco5G7TurI/AAAAAAAACFU/tnDh-1Wcogw/s1600/Ten+Commandments.gif
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Salaam Bigmo
WITT is quite right. I do not know why you laugh.
The only correction I would do to her post is that the address is for both spouses, not just the husband.If they want to forgive, as long as it was not public, which takes it to another dimension, no one would know about the incident and the spouse will not take it to the authorities. If, on the other hand, they want divorce, it has to be taken to the authority. The claimant will have to bear witness four times that the incident happened. This is in lieu of the 4 witnesses. The defendant's defense is to bear witness 4 times that the claimant was wrong. The result will be divorce.
This is per verses 246-9 -
Since you speak of a child whose mother ran away and belittle the importance of a name to a child, I understand that you are unable to get what I mean. will have to put it in another way. In the past, in England for example, these children were called bastards, illegitimate children, s.o.b, s.o w....I suppose you know of that. What does that mean? Could a child living with his father be treated that way? I am not talking political incorrectness here, and don't say mother and father are the same, because what I believe or what you believe is not what many societies believed or still believe. Mothers killed their babies to avoid, and make the baby avoid such a life. There are also children resulting from rape. All these children have mothers and no fathers. They are still a problem in many societies, especially in the middle east and Muslim countries where some of them lash the mother or even kill her and no one would take the "illegitimate child". Does this happen to children accepted by their fathers even if the mother fled away with a lover? Would this father have a problem getting married? No. Why then should his problem be solved by an already married woman? As for the mother of an illegitimate child, her marriage can be very problematic and the burden will fall on the child. Here comes this solution as the last resort.
Ok so because people of UK were a bunch of idiots in the past, we should have men sleeping around with 4 women? What about changing the negative attitude towards children? And do you think that a child is less a bastard because someone with 3 wives and a bunch of other children comes and sleep with this childs mother??
Now do you assume that all cultures are like the UK ? What about cultures were the childs name derive from his mother? If the mother ran away in this society would you suggest polyandry?
They are still a problem in many societies, especially in the middle east and Muslim countries where some of them lash the mother or even kill her and no one would take the "illegitimate child". Does this happen to children accepted by their fathers even if the mother fled away with a lover?
Yes yes we know that the world hates women. But you said polygyny was a solution for the child not for the adults? Ok so because the world especially middle east hates women and kill them we should have men with multiple wives?????? What about punishing the killers so these crimes dont happen? Would you cure women hating with more anti-women rules(polygyny)
Would this father have a problem getting married? No. Why then should his problem be solved by an already married woman? As for the mother of an illegitimate child, her marriage can be very problematic and the burden will fall on the child. Here comes this solution as the last resort.
Lol. So your point is that single moms cant get married again thats why we shall have married men sleeping with them. But single fathers dont have a problem getting married men so we dont need married women to sleep with them. But you just said that polygyny is not for adults? First of all, there are at least AS many women, who dont want to marry single fathers as there are men who dont want to marry single mothers. The majority of people regardless of gender, always try to marry counterparts who havent been married before. Secondly, there are still SOME people, both men and women who dont have a problem with getting married to single mothers or fathers if they like that person.
So your whole argument about that nobody wants to marry single mothers is flawed since I have seen many cases IN MIDDLE EAST where a woman with 2 children got married with a virgin man. But for the sake of the argument, if nobody wanted to marry a single mother, than why do you assume that a family father wanted to marry her? He would of course, as the rest also look after ''virgins''.
Again the problem with all your argument is, that it also applies for polyandry, which you of course cant tolerate like most muslims. To imagine a woman having more than one husband make the blood boil inside the muslims of anger, but having a man cheating on his wife by getting married again is quite fine. Muslims are mostly experts in practising these hateful dobbel standards which is the reason for why we have so much woman-opression which you suggest would be cured at least for her children, by having her getting married and fu*ked by a family father. What about proper human care???? Or what about encouraging single, virgin men to get married with single mothers out of love and compassion??
Secondly, I dont see anywhere in quran 4,3 talking about that nobody wants to marry a mother with a child etc. Its something YOU think because you have seen so much woman opression. And i am sorry to say it, but you cant solve anti-woman attitudes by having men cheating on their wives. -
"A woman who cheats her husband and sleeps with another man or vice versa, its NOT up to the community to punish her, its only God who can do that, and the husband of course have the right to either forgive her or divorce her. So Simple is that"
That is very naive. rotfl
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE4gGtpcGno
http//www.break.com/usercontent/2006/12/20/bike-racer-caught-cheating-198063
http//www.metacafe.com/watch/442607/guy_films_himself_cheating_and_gets_caught/
http//www.break.com/index/wife-caught-cheating.html#
http//mytings.net/video/cheating-husband-beaten-up-by
Its worse than stealing.
My favorite
http//dumpalink.com/videos/This-Guy-got-Caught-Cheating-on-his-Girl-6fd7.html
Koranic justice at its best
http//3.bp.blogspot.com/-iJFY46Db9HQ/Tkco5G7TurI/AAAAAAAACFU/tnDh-1Wcogw/s1600/Ten+Commandments.gif
hahaha I liked the last video loooooooooooool. its my favorite too. I know the ten commandments, and I agree with them. However, its the requirement of 4 witnesses who bother me, since its impossible to get 4 witnesses in cases of adultery?
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Ok so because people of UK were a bunch of idiots in the past, we should have men sleeping around with 4 women? What about changing the negative attitude towards children? And do you think that a child is less a bastard because someone with 3 wives and a bunch of other children comes and sleep with this childs mother??
Please cool down.
At least we agree that they were a bunch of idiots.
Then they solved it in a better way changing the attitude towards these children.
We in our countries are still this bunch of idiots. Until we reach the wisdom of societies that changed the attitude towards the children, individuals can solve it in this way. This is an individual solution. It is not a law nor an obligation. It's "equity".
You are furious because you relate to the wife or the wife-to-be. You are unable to relate to a young woman with an illegitimate child in an unfair society, where her child would be cursed all his life and will never be accepted in the society. That's if they even survived. And one wouldn't know whether to feel sorry if they die or be happy for them for being free from a cruel life ahead.
And by the way, I haven't so far seen a "legitimate" polygamy. You see men following their desires and amassing women. But they never marry a broken woman with an illegitimate child. -
Please cool down.
At least we agree that they were a bunch of idiots.
Then they solved it in a better way changing the attitude towards these children.
We in our countries are still this bunch of idiots. Until we reach the wisdom of societies that changed the attitude towards the children, individuals can solve it in this way. This is an individual solution. It is not a law nor an obligation. It's "equity".
You are furious because you relate to the wife or the wife-to-be. You are unable to relate to a young woman with an illegitimate child in an unfair society, where her child would be cursed all his life and will never be accepted in the society. That's if they even survived. And one wouldn't know whether to feel sorry if they die or be happy for them for being free from a cruel life ahead.
And by the way, I haven't so far seen a "legitimate" polygamy. You see men following their desires and amassing women. But they never marry a broken woman with an illegitimate child.you said
You are unable to relate to a young woman with an illegitimate child in an unfair society, where her child would be cursed all his life and will never be accepted in the society. That's if they even survived. And one wouldn't know whether to feel sorry if they die or be happy for them for being free from a cruel life ahead
And do you think that the child would become legitimate because a family father marries her when everyone knows he is not the father?
And you didnt answered my question, what about societies where the childs name derives from the mother. Would you suggest polyandry?You are furious because you relate to the wife or the wife-to-be
It is you who relate it so, because you keep on insisting that a family father shall cheat on his wife by sleeping with a mother of a bastard child.
Okay so you say that a single mother with a bastard child, (which by the way wont happen if she was following islam) only have the options between dying or getting f*cked by a family father? -
Now do you assume that all cultures are like the UK ? What about cultures were the childs name derive from his mother? If the mother ran away in this society would you suggest polyandry?
If the child does not have a problem, why revert to polygamy or polyandry?
The verse starts by "If you fear not to be equitable to fatherless children". It's not a universal obligation.And do not cling to this notion of "name" in this childish way. I gave it as an example of what really happens in societies I am aware of. The qur'aan does not prohibit a woman giving her name to a child, and I know that.
Yes yes we know that the world hates women. But you said polygyny was a solution for the child not for the adults? Ok so because the world especially middle east hates women and kill them we should have men with multiple wives?????? What about punishing the killers so these crimes dont happen? Would you cure women hating with more anti-women rules(polygyny)
Who said anything about "you should"? Please liberate your mind from the notion of "polygamy is the man's God given right" and try to understand.
Or even better, read the verse and criticize me if you see that I said "you should marry more than a wife". On the contrary, I mentioned that the rule is to marry only the singles, but in extreme conditions, polygamy may be allowed.Lol. So your point is that single moms cant get married again thats why we shall have married men sleeping with them. But single fathers dont have a problem getting married men so we dont need married women to sleep with them. But you just said that polygyny is not for adults? First of all, there are at least AS many women, who dont want to marry single fathers as there are men who dont want to marry single mothers. The majority of people regardless of gender, always try to marry counterparts who havent been married before. Secondly, there are still SOME people, both men and women who dont have a problem with getting married to single mothers or fathers if they like that person.
Do you have a problem with comprehension or what? Or you just want to twist what I said to rant?
If you want to marry more than a man, be my guest. But please don't come up with stupid arguments and say I said it. -
Samia
Do you have a problem with comprehension or what? Or you just want to twist what I said to rant?
If you want to marry more than a man, be my guest. But please don't come up with stupid arguments and say I said it.Whats wrong with comprehension? Are you against comprehension because it expose your hypocrisy or dobbel standards? Personally, I dont have a problem with getting married with more than one man. Do you have a problem with polyandry?
But you kept on saying that a single mother only have the option between dying or getting raped by a family father who also cheats on his wife. Isnt THAT a stupid argument?Who said anything about "you should"? Please liberate your mind from the notion of "polygamy is the man's God given right" and try to understand.
Or even better, read the verse and criticize me if you see that I said "you should marry more than a wife". On the contrary, I mentioned that the rule is to marry only the singles, but in extreme conditions, polygamy may be allowed.Understand what? That the mother of bastard children should almost getting raped by family fathers?
If the child does not have a problem, why revert to polygamy or polyandry?
The verse starts by "If you fear not to be equitable to fatherless children". It's not a universal obligation.And do not cling to this notion of "name" in this childish way. I gave it as an example of what really happens in societies I am aware of. The qur'aan does not prohibit a woman giving her name to a child, and I know that.
But it is you who kept on metioning the name thing. I just reminded you that the child belongs to his mother as well, and thats why we also have societies where children are known from their mothers name, like in jewish societies. So your argument about having men cheating on their wives in order to give bastard children their name, would mean that we shall allow polyandry in jewish societies as well so bastard children could get a name.
You use very creative justifications in order to justify polygyny, but none of them makes sense. Seconldy I dont think 4,3 talks about polygyny at all.
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Look WITT
Okay so you say that a single mother with a bastard child, (which by the way wont happen if she was following islam) only have the options between dying or getting f*cked by a family father?
I am afraid we are going to a low level of discussion, thanks to you.
Throw my rendition in the garbage and let's see what you understand from verse 43
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Look WITT
I am afraid we are going to a low level of discussion, thanks to you.Throw my rendition in the garbage and let's see what you understand from verse 43
Dear sister Samia, Dont feel offended by my posts, I respect you a lot. But I was trying to say excately what you said in other words, so you could see how illogical your justification for polygyny is.
Regardless that polygyny is illogical and insulting for women as well as for men, the reason for I think 43 isnt about polygyny is because I dont think ''Nisa'' means women.
Peace