Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Of course I have the right to be offended when you put filthy words or ideas in my mouth.
I do not believe that nisaa' is "exclusively" women either, not that it cannot mean women.
"nisaa'" linguistically is plural of "ns' " not "imra'a ". "ns'" is to delay, leave behind...from which we have the Arabic expression of where a later agreement is impost on the debtor regardless , or because of his defaulting the payment. The quraanic expression of "nasi' " withregard to the prohibited months (937) was to delay them.
Having said that, , with respect to the context as in 4;127 means vulnerable children, orphans/ fatherless children AND mothers of fatherless children when they are not paid their "ajr".
In this verse we have the verb marry. The order cannot be to marry the vulnerable or fatherless children.So, I am still waiting to see, with regard to nisaa' not meaning women here who should be married if we fear not to be equitable to fatherless children?
Or maybe you do not think that "inka7u" means marry?
Or that they should marry the very vulnerable children they fear not to be fair to, and be unfair to them "by law" this time?I did not put any filthy words in your mouth. It was you yourself who began to say that men should cheat on their wives by sleeping with mothers of children who were called bastards in the society, so these could get a name. Does this seems logically to you?
Ok so we both agree that nisa does not mean women only. Hence we are not talking about polygyny, since nisa can be males as well. What makes you think that yatama is fatherless children?
Secondly, I cannot see anything regarding multiple wives or husbands in this verse. Inkah7o means go and marry yourself according to you? So this is a big contradiction to surah noor where God says we shall marry off the singles. -
I did not put any filthy words in your mouth. It was you yourself who began to say that men should cheat on their wives by sleeping with mothers of children who were called bastards in the society, so these could get a name. Does this seems logically to you?
Ok so we both agree that nisa does not mean women only. Hence we are not talking about polygyny, since nisa can be males as well. What makes you think that yatama is fatherless children?
Secondly, I cannot see anything regarding multiple wives or husbands in this verse. Inkah7o means go and marry yourself according to you? So this is a big contradiction to surah noor where God says we shall marry off the singles.You see? you are repeating the same nonesense and attributing it to me.
As for the underlined line, you do not even comprehend what I said regarding this.
I am not discussing my understanding anymore with you, as it seems you really have a comprehension problem.
Waiting for a thorough explanation by you for this verse.
It's not enough to just say "nisaa'" means men too; "yatamaa" are not fatherless children, and there is no marrying second, third and fourth time.
Give a consistent explanation for the whole verse as I did. -
Sister Samia - Meet Whereisthetruth, a young woman with Pakistani background living in Sweden. She is fierce and has the heart of a tiger. But her heart is full of love and she is a very nice person.
Sister Whereisthetruth - Meet Samia, a wise woman from the UK that has a brilliantly logical mind, she has a heart full of love and she is a very nice person.
Can we get back to the cheating part? I still got problems with cheating actually meaning public sex. There must be a reason for the harsh punishment. Can't remember who pointed it out, but a hundred lashes is brutal. If executed in a professional manner it will kill you.
One good point made was that why should Allah punish adultery? It kinda gives itself a punishment (divorce, losing the kids etc)....
But the punishment of a hundred stripes fit the crime better if the crime is adultery.......
But it runs into problems in extra-ordinary circumstances.......Adultery is only adultery if the two persons involved have taken an oath to eachother. What if that oath excludes monogamy? Hypothetical argument; A man's oath to a woman can never include monogamy because if he is to marry one more woman he will by default break the monogamy oath to wife number 1.
Public sex runs into problems because of the actual number four. I find it very hard to grasp why a party of three is private but add one more person and it all of a sudden becomes public confused
Also it runs into problems with the society we live in today. Again playing the devil's advocate here; A pornographic film is not an act of zina (public sex) if it states on the back cover that you are not allowed to watch this movie in the presence of more than two more people..........I am being a little ridicilous here, but you get my point?I am leaning more and more towards my initial understanding, zina means uncommitted sex. It includes adultery if the act is done without committment and it includes public sex if the parties involved are not committed towards eachother, which probably would be the case in most public shows of the sexual nature, both before and now.
Of course, I have absolutely no proof because I do not speak arabic So help me out........please?
Uncommitted sex? That is not cheating. Its sex outside of committment that is cheating. I think what you are saying is that it does not matter whether a couple are legally married or not as long as they have some committment between them. If a party does something in hiding and in secret there must be a reason he is doing so.
If you mean casual sex then ther is no party that is raising the issue. Its always when somebody else is involved where people usually have confrontation. The Koran sees adultery as a crime, but it is not a crime like any other because adultery is a very complicated matter. But the goal of the verses is about slandering women. In many societies that could be enough to create a huge problem.
You are right, flogging a women is no easy matter. That is why the Koran gave strict standards for implimenting. A women usually can have a way out from the Koran. But as fas as God is concerned, that is the proper punishment. Not because it is transgressing God's commandment because it also transgresses somebody else.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma3nBnRbmeA
Flogging is not a joke. Disturbing image. When Islam goes wrong.
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You see? you are repeating the same nonesense and attributing it to me.
As for the underlined line, you do not even comprehend what said regarding this.
I am not discussing my understanding anymore with you, as it seems you really have a comprehension problem.
Waiting for a thorough explanation by you for this verse.
It's not enough to just say "nisaa'" means men too; "yatamaa" are not fatherless children, and there is no marrying second, third and fourth time.
Give a consistent explanation for the whole verse as I did.Calm down. Why do you feel so offended by comprehention?
What's wrong with comparing humans to other humans? If you think its ok for men to cheat on their wives but not ok for women to cheat on their husbands because We should not compare men to women than you are just repeating the same Saudi anti woman propaganda. You see here in three west We believe in EQUALITY between genders, We don't discriminate between genders as you do. If you don't want to sound more like a woman hater than why dont you let your husband or boyfriend sleep with a single mother ?Peace
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Calm down. Why do you feel so offended by comprehention?
What's wrong with comparing humans to other humans? If you think its ok for men to cheat on their wives but not ok for women to cheat on their husbands because We should not compare men to women than you are just repeating the same Saudi anti woman propaganda. You see here in three west We believe in EQUALITY between genders, We don't discriminate between genders as you do. If you don't want to sound more like a woman hater than why dont you let your husband or boyfriend sleep with a single mother ?Peace
The reason why the Koran talked about accusing the women is because usually that is what causes the problem. There is no honor killing in Arab society over men except a few. Its always about women.
Middle EastIn 2008 a woman was killed in Saudi Arabia by her father for "chatting" to a man on Facebook. The killing became public only when a Saudi cleric referred to the case to criticise Facebook for the strife it caused.
A June 2008 report by the Turkish Prime Ministry's Human Rights Directorate said that in Istanbul alone there was one honor killing every week, and reported over 1,000 during the previous five years. It added that metropolitan cities were the location of many of these, due to growing Kurdish immigration to these cities from the East. In 2009 a Turkish news agency reported that a 2-day-old boy who was born out of wedlock had been killed for honor. The maternal grandmother of the infant, along with six other persons, including a doctor who had reportedly accepted a bribe to not report the birth, were arrested. The grandmother is suspected of fatally suffocating the infant. The child's mother, 25, was also arrested; she stated that her family had made the decision to kill the child.
A girl in Turkey was killed after her family heard a song and thought she had a boyfriend. In 2010 a 16-year-old girl was buried alive by relatives for befriending boys in Southeast Turkey; her corpse was found 40 days after she went missing. Ahmet Yildiz, 26, a Turkish physics student who represented his country at an international gay conference in the United States in 2008, was shot leaving a cafe in Istanbul. It is believed Yildiz was the victim of the country's first gay honor killing.
There are no exact official numbers about honor killings of women in Lebanon; many honor killings are arranged to look like accidents, but the figure is believed to be 40 to 50 per year. A 2007 report by Amnesty International said that the Lebanese media in 2001 reported 2?3 honor killings per month in Lebanon, although the number is believed by lawyers to be higher. On Aug 4th 2011 the Lebanese parliament agreed with a majority to abolish Article 562 which for years worked as an excuse for honor killing.
The Palestinian Authority, using a clause in the Jordanian penal code still in effect in the West Bank, exempts men from punishment for killing a female relative if she has brought dishonor to the family. Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, promised to change the discriminatory law, but no action has been taken. According to UNICEF, in 2000 two-thirds of all killings in the Palestinian territories were honor killings.
As many as 133 women were killed in the Iraqi city of Basra alone in 2006?79 for violation of "Islamic teachings" and 47 for honor killings, according to IRIN, the news branch of the U.N.'s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Amnesty International says that armed groups, not the government, also kill politically active women and those who did not follow a strict dress code, as well as women who are perceived as human rights defenders.
Jordan, considered one of the most liberal countries in the Middle East, still has instances of honor killings. In Jordan there is relatively little sex discrimination compared to other most other countries in the region, and women are permitted to vote, but men receive reduced sentences for killing their wives or female family members if they have brought dishonor to their family. Families often get sons under the age of 18?legally minors?to commit honor killings; the juvenile law allows convicted minors to serve time in a juvenile detention center and be released with a clean criminal record at the age of 18. Rana Husseini, a leading journalist on the topic of honor killings, states that ?under the existing law, people found guilty of committing honor killings often receive sentences as light as six months in prison?.
There has been public support in Jordan to amend Articles 340 and 98. In 1999 King Abdullah created a council to review the sex inequalities in the country. The Council returned with a recommendation to repeal Article 340. ?he cabinet approved the recommendation, the measure was presented to parliament twice in November 1999 and January 2000 and in both cases, though approved by the upper house, it failed to pass the elected lower house?. In 2001, after parliament was suspended, a number of temporary laws were created which were subject to parliamentary ratification. One of the amendments was that ?husbands would no longer be exonerated for killing unfaithful wives, but instead the circumstances would be considered as evidence for mitigating punishments?. In the interest of sex equality, women were given the same reduction in punishment if found guilty of the crime. But parliament returned to session in 2003 and the new amendments were rejected by the lower house after two successful readings in the upper house.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
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. Bigmo
You are right. However, the wife can also accuse her husband of adultery. Moreover dont limit quran to the middle eastern ignorance all the time. Middle estern culture is just one culture out of thousands of others, and other cultures have other rules. But it is clear that the quran emphasize the importance of protecting the honor and truthfulness of a wife just as you said because she is in many cases more vulnerable.
Peace
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The thing about honour killing is that it is simple rebelion against the Qur'an and God. Deliberately the law of God is ignored. What should be done with those people y consider them apostates, see how they like it.
Salaam
Just my words!
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Uncommitted sex? That is not cheating. Its sex outside of committment that is cheating. I think what you are saying is that it does not matter whether a couple are legally married or not as long as they have some committment between them. If a party does something in hiding and in secret there must be a reason he is doing so.
If you mean casual sex then ther is no party that is raising the issue. Its always when somebody else is involved where people usually have confrontation. The Koran sees adultery as a crime, but it is not a crime like any other because adultery is a very complicated matter. But the goal of the verses is about slandering women. In many societies that could be enough to create a huge problem.
You are right, flogging a women is no easy matter. That is why the Koran gave strict standards for implimenting. A women usually can have a way out from the Koran. But as fas as God is concerned, that is the proper punishment. Not because it is transgressing God's commandment because it also transgresses somebody else.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma3nBnRbmeA
Flogging is not a joke. Disturbing image. When Islam goes wrong.
Salam
By uncommitted sex I mean sex between two persons who has not given an oath to eachother. You could also call it marriage, but since the ritual of marriage is so diversified between cultures I find it misleading to use that term because many automatically thinks the traditional ritual must be upheld in order to legitimize the "marriage"
But by calling it uncommitted sex rather than adultery gives meaning to the harsh punishment. Just because we right now have means to prevent unwanted pregnancies only a few generations ago a casual sexual encounter could very much result..........in orphans.It's like this....Sex is probably one of the best things in life, but this wonderful thing can create another human being. A small little person who needs love and committment from two loving parents for many years to come. Allah speaks about those who are forced to live without a parent and He goes a long way to make sure we understand that they, the bastards, the illegitimate, the unwanted will have the same rights as children with two parents.
So sex brings an enormous amount of responsibility. Not wanting to take this responsibility results in a harsh punishment, simple... -
Salam
By uncommitted sex I mean sex between two persons who has not given an oath to eachother. You could also call it marriage, but since the ritual of marriage is so diversified between cultures I find it misleading to use that term because many automatically thinks the traditional ritual must be upheld in order to legitimize the "marriage"
But by calling it uncommitted sex rather than adultery gives meaning to the harsh punishment. Just because we right now have means to prevent unwanted pregnancies only a few generations ago a casual sexual encounter could very much result..........in orphans.It's like this....Sex is probably one of the best things in life, but this wonderful thing can create another human being. A small little person who needs love and committment from two loving parents for many years to come. Allah speaks about those who are forced to live without a parent and He goes a long way to make sure we understand that they, the bastards, the illegitimate, the unwanted will have the same rights as children with two parents.
So sex brings an enormous amount of responsibility. Not wanting to take this responsibility results in a harsh punishment, simple...Right, but I see the harsh punishment as meant to scare away slandering. If you look at the verse, its much easier to get flogged for slandering than it is for adultery. It is the only time the Koran insisted on four witness and it also said without the four witness those who brought forth the charge should get flogged (even if they may be saying the truth). It accepted the witness of a spouse but it also gave the other the right to bear witness also. It also tells us that these charges are usually brought about by men against women. The harshness of tone came regarding slandering. This can not be understood except understanding the culture and environment. If this was in China, maybe nobody would have cared to such a degree, but the easiest way to create problems in Arab culture is that. Lets look at the verses
Surah 24. Light
1.A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.-
The woman and the man guilty of Zina,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
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Let no man guilty of Zina marry but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
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And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
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Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
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And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
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And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
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But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
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And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
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If it were not for Allah.s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
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Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
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Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie" ?
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Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
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Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair.
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Behold, ye received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which ye had no knowledge; and ye thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah.
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And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this Glory to Allah. this is a most serious slander!"
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Allah doth admonish you, that ye may never repeat such (conduct), if ye are (true) Believers.
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And Allah makes the Signs plain to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
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Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter Allah knows, and ye know not.
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Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, and that Allah is full of kindness and mercy, (ye would be ruined indeed).
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O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure but Allah doth purify whom He pleases and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
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Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want, and those who have left their homes in Allah.s cause let them forgive and overlook, do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
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Those who slander chaste women, indiscreet but believing, are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty,-
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On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions.
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On that Day Allah will pay them back (all) their just dues, and they will realise that Allah is the (very) Truth, that makes all things manifest.
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Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity these are not affected by what people say for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.
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The harshness of tone came regarding slandering. This can not be understood except understanding the culture and environment. If this was in China, maybe nobody would have cared to such a degree, but the easiest way to create problems in Arab culture is that. Lets look at the verses
Right! that is exactly what my problem is, what I can't really get my head around. I would like very much to be able to look at the historical events that happened during this time to understand the verses of the Quran, but to me that makes me feel I just replaced hadith with a history book. I see the Quran as timeless and if prophet Muhammed would have been chinese the Quran would still look the same, exactly the same.
If you let me, I would like to change the words a little, just to make it clear of how I read the sura, may Allah forgive me for this. With "uncommitted" I mean that you have not taken an oath to protect and serve the "outcome" of sexual intercourse, ie. a baby. Like I said before, some people might call it marriage.
Taken from f-m Quran
The uncommitted, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
243 The male uncommitted will only marry an uncommitter or she who is a polytheist. And the female uncommitter, she will only be married to an uncommitter or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
244 And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses to say she is not true to her committment, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.
245 Except those who repent after this and do good, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
246 And those who accuse their spouses of lying of her committment towards him, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful.
247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars.
248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth.
2410 All this is from the grace of God upon you and His mercy. And God is Forgiving, Wise.242 Punishment for playing with fire......Creating another human being is serious business, if you do not want to stand up for your responsibility you may in fact ruin the whole life of what you have so carelessly created in a moment of lust. IMO, being directly or indirectly responsible for potentially ruining another human's life deserves a harsh punishment, and flogging is the ultimate punishment in this case. Killing the person is not good because then the killer is responsible for creating orphans, and throwing in jail will only lead to nobody being able to take care of the child. A quick and harsh punishment is the perfect punishment.
243 Stating the obvious, a man or woman would never marry a person that (s)he knew is not going to take responsibility plus Allah does not allow it for a believer
244 The four witnesses do not need to witness a sexual act, they have to stand up and testify that this female is not true to her husband, that she only married him for his status or money. If he would lose that, she would divorce him. The yanks call these girls "gold diggers" I think. -
You cannot unish or judge on intentions. You can only judge on acts, and as to the acts. I do think that the thrust of the ayas dealing with zina and slandering of zina or what may look like it is to make people responsible and not give in to badmouthing others and gossip, but without condoning casual or uncommitted relationships, as you say. But a relation, even without love be completely committed if those who participate really discharge their duties. As to why they do it, if they themselves are in agreement nobody can tell them anything or judge them. It is their business. Een within marriage peoplemay be wholly uncommitted.
Laws cannot judge beforehand the feelings or intentions of people, only their acts.
Before the sura An-Nur we already knew how impoetant it is to be faithful in marriage and in everything else, how serious is such a compact and such relationship, that had already been upheld, but in An-Nur that seriousness is once more made manifest, but emphasis is made on the seriousness of slandering people, particularly women in order to divest them of their social rights. And I do not agree that that is particular to the middle East or to some countries or ages. Anywhere gossip and slander of unfaithfulness destroy lives and marriages. Some people may be hurt more, others less, but it is rare that anybody should just shrugg when made the target of slandering and gossip or when his or her trust in the partner is shaken or destroyed. Also precisely it is so that ppeople do not make suspicion or certainty about that kind of thing into a weapon, a deadly weapon. It demeans the whole society and turns it as it aptly say into eaters of the carrion of their own people. The Qur'an in this case where it goes overboard is in disparaging slanderers and those who would think the worst when they can think the best.
Salaam
Salaam
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You cannot unish or judge on intentions. You can only judge on acts, and as to the acts. I do think that the thrust of the ayas dealing with zina and slandering of zina or what may look like it is to make people responsible and not give in to badmouthing others and gossip, but without condoning casual or uncommitted relationships, as you say. But a relation, even without love be completely committed if those who participate really discharge their duties. As to why they do it, if they themselves are in agreement nobody can tell them anything or judge them. It is their business. Een within marriage peoplemay be wholly uncommitted.
Laws cannot judge beforehand the feelings or intentions of people, only their acts.
Before the sura An-Nur we already knew how impoetant it is to be faithful in marriage and in everything else, how serious is such a compact and such relationship, that had already been upheld, but in An-Nur that seriousness is once more made manifest, but emphasis is made on the seriousness of slandering people, particularly women in order to divest them of their social rights. And I do not agree that that is particular to the middle East or to some countries or ages. Anywhere gossip and slander of unfaithfulness destroy lives and marriages. Some people may be hurt more, others less, but it is rare that anybody should just shrugg when made the target of slandering and gossip or when his or her trust in the partner is shaken or destroyed. Also precisely it is so that ppeople do not make suspicion or certainty about that kind of thing into a weapon, a deadly weapon. It demeans the whole society and turns it as it aptly say into eaters of the carrion of their own people. The Qur'an in this case where it goes overboard is in disparaging slanderers and those who would think the worst when they can think the best.
Salaam
Salaam
Salam Huruf
I am not talking about punishing an intention, I am talking about punishing a non-intention. I am not talking about love or the committment of love between two people. I am talking about the committment towards a human that is the result of sexual intercourse.
You keep referring uncommitted sex to mean casual sex, but to me it is more than that. A married couple may be guilty of no committment if they get pregnant and decide to give the child up for adoption. A married couple can be guilty of no committment if they give birth to an unwanted child. They should not have sex if they do not take responsibility of the result. The human must control the lust. How can anyone think that "Sorry my son/daughter for letting you grow up without parents. We never wanted you....but we were just so darn horny. Hope you understand, thanks" will ever be an acceptable apology? We make promises everyday in order to get what we want, "yes I promise to drive carefully if I can borrow your car. Yes I promise not to stab you if I can borrow your knife >D" There is nowhere in the Quran that we promise our unborn children to be parents. Allah feels it is not enough with a promise, he has set out a punishment for us to endure in our earthly life if we thought we didn't have to take the responsibility.
I understand that Allah wants to stop slandering, especially if it is towards a woman. I don't disagree with you Huruf, Allah can and does address many aspects in one verse. My understanding of Zina very much covers adultery as well, because adultery in its very sense means uncommitted sex. So when the woman is protected against slander it could very much include the protection of the man against a woman who has married him for the wrong reasons, ie that she will leave him if a better (read wealthier) man comes along. Because most verses that address faithfulness are directed towards the man, not the woman. A muslim woman has not much committment according to the Quran, the traditional muslim has "solved" this by using hadith to make it virtually impossible for a woman to get a divorce.
Many Qurans translate Zina to "illegal sexual behaviour", my Quran translates it to "highly indecent act" and the punishment is very harsh. Remembering the countless times Allah mentions that we must treat orphans like any other children, don't you think that Allah would rather see that we humans do not create orphans in the first place? When Allah goes against our very nature as humans (yes, human nature says we are monogamous) and allows us to marry more than one woman if we fear for the orphans, don't you think it is in place to punish us harshly if we actively contribute in making more orphans?
I cannot see any bigger sin than to shun your own flesh and blood.
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Right! that is exactly what my problem is, what I can't really get my head around. I would like very much to be able to look at the historical events that happened during this time to understand the verses of the Quran, but to me that makes me feel I just replaced hadith with a history book. I see the Quran as timeless and if prophet Muhammed would have been chinese the Quran would still look the same, exactly the same.
If you let me, I would like to change the words a little, just to make it clear of how I read the sura, may Allah forgive me for this. With "uncommitted" I mean that you have not taken an oath to protect and serve the "outcome" of sexual intercourse, ie. a baby. Like I said before, some people might call it marriage.
Taken from f-m Quran
The uncommitted, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
243 The male uncommitted will only marry an uncommitter or she who is a polytheist. And the female uncommitter, she will only be married to an uncommitter or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
244 And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses to say she is not true to her committment, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.
245 Except those who repent after this and do good, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
246 And those who accuse their spouses of lying of her committment towards him, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful.
247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars.
248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth.
2410 All this is from the grace of God upon you and His mercy. And God is Forgiving, Wise.242 Punishment for playing with fire......Creating another human being is serious business, if you do not want to stand up for your responsibility you may in fact ruin the whole life of what you have so carelessly created in a moment of lust. IMO, being directly or indirectly responsible for potentially ruining another human's life deserves a harsh punishment, and flogging is the ultimate punishment in this case. Killing the person is not good because then the killer is responsible for creating orphans, and throwing in jail will only lead to nobody being able to take care of the child. A quick and harsh punishment is the perfect punishment.
243 Stating the obvious, a man or woman would never marry a person that (s)he knew is not going to take responsibility plus Allah does not allow it for a believer
244 The four witnesses do not need to witness a sexual act, they have to stand up and testify that this female is not true to her husband, that she only married him for his status or money. If he would lose that, she would divorce him. The yanks call these girls "gold diggers" I think.The problem with the uncommitted argument is that most men never tell a woman that they are uncommitted but tell them otherwise to have the women open up to them. The verse clearly indicates that this was not a situation where it was committment or not but somebody started a rumour about some misconduct. It also tell us that the situation included some spousal arrangement. So I really can not see what it can be but adultery. Some have said that it may not necessarily mean the couple should be married for Zina, any commitement can be equal to a marriage. This means Zina here is betrayal of an oath. I actually find this argument compelling. After all whether a couple are legally married or not does not change the issue. But the Koran did not really focus on adultery only, its main goal was slandering. In other society we can use analogy. Anything that can lead to families murdering their own daughters and stigmatizing families and making families split should be taken seriously.
The problem with adultery is that its most of the time the children who pay the ultimate price as adultery most often leads to divorce.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
Also it is inconceiveable that the Koran would ignore the topic of adultery. One of the ten commandments of Moses.
As far as China is concerned, it is also inconceivable that the Koran would be exactly the same as any other revelation, given that many elements of the Koran has a direct relation with Muhammad's circumstances. Many verses deal with Mecca and deal with the battles fought and deal with specifics of the Medina community. Something that you can not duplicate in Jesus or Abraham's biography.However the Koran also gave us insight into Joseph's biography and also Moses. Each had his own circumstances. But each has something to teach us. But we can use the Koran as a guidance as that is what the Koran calls itself. The important thing here is the Koran is very transparent. We know of the many argument the Meccan disbelievers gave and they are identical to what the people of past prophets told the prophets. But there are events on the ground that are to do with Muhammad's biography.
Any legal framework must address the issues related with the society it came from. Just like drunk driving, citizenship laws and border control are not addresses specifically in the Koran, we can still use Koranic guidelines.
It affects the family as a whole and often lead to violence as pain here can be overwhelming. The eye for an eye says that as much pain you cause others should be inflicted on you.
http//www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/933967/
This is very sad but tells you what cheating can really do
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What I mean to say, Emil, is that abuse of institutions or relationships, which is what what you describe seems to me, to be qualified as a crime and then be witnessed by four people is virtually impossible. How are you going to prove that somebody, for instance wasn't really commited at a certain time, and only appeared to be so? Real changes for good or worse do occur. So in that case the ayas that deal with the punishment of zina, would be above all a qualifying of the gravity of certain behaviour even if that behaviour very rarely is going to be punishable judicially. That is what I mean, and that is where we end up in practical terms that in order to be called a zani practically you have to engage in public sex.
Also, the fact that the slander is made to appear as ugly as it is reinforces that zina is realy hateful, because you can not slander anybody with the same effectivenss if you choose another kind of action like let us say, lack of puntuality. And setting first the fact that the zani and the zaniya re going to be equally punishable makes or should make the penchant for slandering women and not men, more shocking. But of course, people can kick the Qur'an just as they can kick anything that does not pander to its desires.
Salaam
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Salaam Bigmo
The problem with adultery is that its most of the time the children who pay the ultimate price as adultery most often leads to divorce.
Yes, and it should be the children who are protected by law, they are the innocent ones.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
I understand that, but as a Northern European who does not know that will not consider that when reading the verses. I want to discuss this further (see below)
Also it is inconceiveable that the Koran would ignore the topic of adultery. One of the ten commandments of Moses.
I agree
As far as China is concerned, it is also inconceivable that the Koran would be exactly the same as any other revelation, given that many elements of the Koran has a direct relation with Muhammad's circumstances.
I beg to differ, the message would still be the same regardless of what country the Quran landed. Allah had a reason to choose the Middle East, perhaps this region was the most suitable, just like Allah had a reason to choose male prophets.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
Any legal framework must address the issues related with the society it came from. Just like drunk driving, citizenship laws and border control are not addresses specifically in the Koran, we can still use Koranic guidelines.By not specifying what Zina and fahisha incorporates, I think Allah shows us, just like you say, that the meaning is supposed to be different depending on the society. Allah has on purpose made us into different nations and tribes, it would be illogical if we were then asked by Him to feel exactly the same. In Pakistani and Indian cultures slandering is a problem, let them use Zina to stop slandering. In other countries people do not take responsibility (it is only abortion that is hiding the effect), lets use Zina to stop this.
What I mean to say, Emil, is that abuse of institutions or relationships, which is what what you describe seems to me, to be qualified as a crime and then be witnessed by four people is virtually impossible. How are you going to prove that somebody, for instance wasn't really commited at a certain time, and only appeared to be so?
Salam Huruf
Well, for starters if a man dumps the woman the minute he finds out she is pregnant is proof enough I think. This is not a hypothetical scenario, happens every day.
A woman dumps the man the minute he lost his job. Again, it happens everyday.
If I was love-struck I would certainly appreciate if people who have insight in my relationship (friends, family) would stand up and warn me if they see what I cannot because I am blind with love.
I would like to have a "weapon" against those men who play on the girl's emotions in order to get her in the sack.
The harsh punishment is a deterrent, do not get involved unless you are serious. It is a pre-emptive strike so that orphans are not made unecessarily.
And, I see the impossibility of having four witnesses of adultery bigger than the impossibility of having four witnesses to evidence that a people will not commit to their off-spring.Like I said before, perhaps the meaning of Zina (and fahisha) is supposed to be flexible? It is perhaps not supposed to have one set meaning. Maybe we are to incorporate the meaning with what we and our society regard as Zina.
If we let the society govern what Zina and fahisha means, I think we will find a balance. Zina and fahisha should be governed by our EQ (emotional intellect), otherwise we will only impose moral values upon eachother. -
Salaam Bigmo
Yes, and it should be the children who are protected by law, they are the innocent ones.I understand that, but as a Northern European who does not know that will not consider that when reading the verses. I want to discuss this further (see below)
I agree
I beg to differ, the message would still be the same regardless of what country the Quran landed. Allah had a reason to choose the Middle East, perhaps this region was the most suitable, just like Allah had a reason to choose male prophets.
By not specifying what Zina and fahisha incorporates, I think Allah shows us, just like you say, that the meaning is supposed to be different depending on the society. Allah has on purpose made us into different nations and tribes, it would be illogical if we were then asked by Him to feel exactly the same. In Pakistani and Indian cultures slandering is a problem, let them use Zina to stop slandering. In other countries people do not take responsibility (it is only abortion that is hiding the effect), lets use Zina to stop this.
Salam Huruf
Well, for starters if a man dumps the woman the minute he finds out she is pregnant is proof enough I think. This is not a hypothetical scenario, happens every day.
A woman dumps the man the minute he lost his job. Again, it happens everyday.
If I was love-struck I would certainly appreciate if people who have insight in my relationship (friends, family) would stand up and warn me if they see what I cannot because I am blind with love.
I would like to have a "weapon" against those men who play on the girl's emotions in order to get her in the sack.
The harsh punishment is a deterrent, do not get involved unless you are serious. It is a pre-emptive strike so that orphans are not made unecessarily.
And, I see the impossibility of having four witnesses of adultery bigger than the impossibility of having four witnesses to evidence that a people will not commit to their off-spring.Like I said before, perhaps the meaning of Zina (and fahisha) is supposed to be flexible? It is perhaps not supposed to have one set meaning. Maybe we are to incorporate the meaning with what we and our society regard as Zina.
If we let the society govern what Zina and fahisha means, I think we will find a balance. Zina and fahisha should be governed by our EQ (emotional intellect), otherwise we will only impose moral values upon eachother.Tje problem of that is proving and in fat is founded on proving intentions. If a man drops a lover the moment she is pregnant, then you do not need to prove his intentions and that will nto help a bit the mother or the possible child. What should be done, particularly now that the adn can be traced is to takis his money and give it to his family whther he wanted that family or didn't. In fact, funily now in Spain according to law that could be done, but it is not done because the means to cary out the law are not there, and justice is low, slow slow.
How can you prove that a woman left a man because he has no money? May be it is because of that, may be not. May be he is just being very cruel with her and money or not money she just cannot stand it. You may punish people who are guilty, but you may also punich people who are inocent and may be victims. And if what the Qur'an meant that why ask for four witnesses. Could just ask for proof. Documental proof, that would show if somebody drops another person.
I am sorry Emil and morally you are right and we all would agree with that and independently of the zina in Qur'an, we would all want laws that prevented people from misusing relationships and institutions and I am sure , of course, the Qur'an authorizes any legal effort of societies to bring about more equity and justice, but I doubt that zina is meant for that. However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Salam
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Tje problem of that is proving and in fat is founded on proving intentions. If a man drops a lover the moment she is pregnant, then you do not need to prove his intentions and that will nto help a bit the mother or the possible child. What should be done, particularly now that the adn can be traced is to takis his money and give it to his family whther he wanted that family or didn't. In fact, funily now in Spain according to law that could be done, but it is not done because the means to cary out the law are not there, and justice is low, slow slow.
How can you prove that a woman left a man because he has no money? May be it is because of that, may be not. May be he is just being very cruel with her and money or not money she just cannot stand it. You may punish people who are guilty, but you may also punich people who are inocent and may be victims. And if what the Qur'an meant that why ask for four witnesses. Could just ask for proof. Documental proof, that would show if somebody drops another person.
I am sorry Emil and morally you are right and we all would agree with that and independently of the zina in Qur'an, we would all want laws that prevented people from misusing relationships and institutions and I am sure , of course, the Qur'an authorizes any legal effort of societies to bring about more equity and justice, but I doubt that zina is meant for that. However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Salam
Salam
I can find proof just by going to a bar or disco.......I have many male friends that will say "I love you" to a girl just to get her in the sack. They absolutely no intention of becoming a father and I know they would run away if the girl would become pregnant. I also have female friends who would sleep with a man because he has a nice car, know the right people, is famous, has money.
How would you feel if your own sister would be fooled by one of these men? How would you feel if your brother was fooled by one of these girls? Would you not want to know if your future spouse has no intention of becoming a parent? The uncommitted is to marry an uncommitter, there should never be a relationship where one (or two) is not totally committed to the children.Allah is not protecting arab women from slandering, he is protecting his children from bad parents. We don't need to even open our eyes to see that the world we live in has problems, and the ones who get punished are the children. I cannot think of a bigger crime than to knowlingly put a child on this earth and not take responsibility for it. It goes way beyond slandering, waaay beyond.....
Allah tells us not to kill our children because of poverty, we will provide for those who need it. Does that give us the right to produce children without taking the responsibility as a parent? No, of course not. The way I see it is that the earthly punishments set down by Allah are given to us because if Allah would "wait" until judgement day the damage is already done. The victim of a burglary may have lost all his possessions ending up in poverty. An unwanted child has already suffered.
However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Not in Allah's name I hope....
I am sorry I may be typing so it sounds like I am being. I am really stressed right now and I should be packing instead of posting on this very interesting thread.
Need to go, peace brothers and sisters
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For purposes of assurance, I will repeat my above argument for the sake of its sound reasoning, and for the sake of the believers
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!