The Search for Muhammad has Ended
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So how can all the people be allowed into the bayt without coming near the masjid?
The exception/prohibition brought in from a certain point in time. Not allowing nearing Masjid automatically disallows specified people from Albait which can be approached only through first passing into Masjid.
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The exception/prohibition brought in from a certain point in time. Not allowing nearing Masjid automatically disallows specified people from Albait which can be approached only through first passing into Masjid.
You have no right to annul an order by God that the bayt is for all people, mentioned more than once , at the expense of masjid where the order to keep mushriks away from it happened only once, just to establish your specific understanding Nowhere in the qur'aan do we have the bayt meaning the masjid or in its vicinity.
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Salaam Pazuzu,
I come to this Forum only to read your posts.
I agree that the other thread became a circus, and this one is in danger of becoming so, too.
I wish people could spare us their pathetic comments, and have patience to wait for you to expose your claims.
I hope you will have the energy and will to continue giving us the precious and logical explanations and information.I shall use this opportunity to congratulate you on your posts which are logical. very well written, seriously exposed and clearly outlined.
I agree with almost all your claims, and they've helped me to understand many unclear parts of the translations of the Qur'an and Islam.
Thank you!
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Salaam Godsubmitter
I do not know what you mean by the thread became a circus. I do not think discussing the masjid or bayt are alien to the subject. If "Muslims" believe that the hajj in its present form was practiced by Muhammad, then he must have been in Mecca. Just saying I do not believe Mecca existed is not enough as long as there is no evidence. Actually, this "circus" you are talking about, here or in the other thread, is full of more evidence than bro Pazuzu submitted, and they could be very helpful to him since he is researching. They do not have to support his theory to be beneficial. In my opinion, those who clap and show complete support without even discussing anything do him more bad than good.
Moreover, we are writing, not talking so that Pazuzu or anyone waits for the us to calm down. He can continue with his thread and later respond to the questions. But neither you nor anyone else has the right to silence people. The thread has not been hijacked by a theme that has nothing to do with where Muhammad is. If Pazuzu wanted to finish his thread without giving others the opportunity to discuss it, he could have posted it all at once. -
If Pazuzu wanted to finish his thread without giving others the opportunity to discuss it, he could have posted it all at once.
As Layeth has done it recently. I may propose that he may put all his article in one go, which might not involve more effort on his part than cut and paste from his computer, by opening a new thread titled the same. And I am sure that thereby his admirers would also not have pass comments like "haphazardly".
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You have no right to annul an order by God that the bayt is for all people, mentioned more than once , at the expense of masjid where the order to keep mushriks away from it happened only once, just to establish your specific understanding Nowhere in the qur'aan do we have the bayt meaning the masjid or in its vicinity.
In about 1400 years billions of people have located the Albait in more or less the middle of the Masjid. If that understanding and physical evidencing is incorrect, and the available structures of both are in different cities or states, that needs to be identified.
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In about 1400 years billions of people have located the Albait in more or less the middle of the Masjid. If that understanding and physical evidencing is incorrect, and the available structures of both are in different cities or states, that needs to be identified.
Not billions of people but in fact hardly a few "Muslim scholars" alleged that a small room somewhere is a bayt of God and the mass of Muslims just followed. What's more interesting is that no messenger of God after Ibrahim (presuming that Ibrahim and his son raised its foundation) has visited this" bayt of God" nor did their followers. God has not told us that those people were wrong for not having visited "His bayt". He told us that they prayed, gave charity, believed in Him only and even fasted, but never visited this "bayt", simply because it is not a structure or a location.
Another point "Mecca" has been ignored, not just by other religions, but also by Muslim rulers themselves. They set their capital in Damascus from the era of Omar Ibn ul Khatab on, and it was never the capital for any of them. Even the Prophet did not bother to live in it after the conquest although it's alleged that he was born there. How can we believe that such a town existed and contained a bayt of God? -
Peace...
too much confusion, pre-conception and opinions on the subject of Beyt / Sanctuary...
let me put my understanding here for whatever it is worth...
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There is no doubt in my mind the places are physical, and there is nothing theologically wrong to find out where they have been / what they are...
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If you re-read the story of Ahl Al Kahfi, (The people of the Cave), when they died, the people have been arguing about how much they slept, how many they were, and wished to build a sanctuary over them, which Allah scorned, as instead of benefitting from the wisdom of the story, people got lost in the details - much as we do here...
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It is very legitimate to find out about one's history, and in fact Allah urges us to do so... so finding out where the Prophets lived and whether what we are being told is correct or not is very acceptable...
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That faith in Allah involves physical manifestations, such as Temples and Sanctuaries, even if these are natural areas like pazuzu argues has nothing to do with shirk, it is the meaning we attribute to these physical manifestations that can constitute shirk... Allah does emphasise that if it were not through His interventions, pushing people alongside others, there will be no Temples, Synagogues and Sanctuaries where God's name is celebrated... this meaning that it is natural for people to do so... because after all, how would believers congregate if they wished to draw near Allah as a group, as opposed to as singletons... Doesn't Allah love Believers standing side by side as if it is an impenetrable wall?
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Excellent Post! Pazuzu.Articles are worth the likes of a Nobel Candidate.
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He told us that they prayed, gave charity, believed in Him only and even fasted, but never visited this "bayt", simply because it is not a structure or a location.
Alternatively, you need to define it as to what is it--a thought, concept, idea!!!!!
"bayt" would also mean "inhabited location".
Seem there are many locations in Yemen called as "Bayt" or "Buyut".
http//www.tageo.com/index-letter-66-e-ym-v-00.htmThere also location named "Bayt Ibrahim" in Yemen and Iraq. Which one the earliest, i am not sure..
Peace.
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Good Day...
The Arabic text says "Yarfa3u' l qawa3id min al bayti".
The word "yarfa3u" here means he REMOVED or LIFTED something FROM al bayt. There were certain things that were "qawa3id" (stagnating or fixed for a long time), and Abraham removed them.
This is similar to Allah telling Muhamad
{Did We not comfort your chest * And take from you your load * Which had put strain on your back?}...
Note the expression "take from you your load". It means Allah REMOVED the load that was straining Muhamad's back. The Arabic text says "narfa3u 3anka" (We "lifted it" or "removed it".
Abraham REMOVED something.
You said The Arabic text says "narfa3u 3anka"
But, when I checked verse it says "waa3n 3anka"
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=94&verse=1Will you please explain how you arrived to word "narfa3u" in place of "waa3n"?
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Not billions of people but in fact hardly a few "Muslim scholars" alleged that a small room somewhere is a bayt of God and the mass of Muslims just followed. What's more interesting is that no messenger of God after Ibrahim (presuming that Ibrahim and his son raised its foundation) has visited this" bayt of God" nor did their followers. God has not told us that those people were wrong for not having visited "His bayt". He told us that they prayed, gave charity, believed in Him only and even fasted, but never visited this "bayt", simply because it is not a structure or a location.
Another point "Mecca" has been ignored, not just by other religions, but also by Muslim rulers themselves. They set their capital in Damascus from the era of Omar Ibn ul Khatab on, and it was never the capital for any of them. Even the Prophet did not bother to live in it after the conquest although it's alleged that he was born there. How can we believe that such a town existed and contained a bayt of God?Yes, that's quite an interesting point!
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I know this thread is old now. Just came across this research a few days ago and have been researching the "Torah came from Arabia" theory. I've got quite a few questions but I'm going to focus on one for the moment. Pazuzu, you mention there are 200+ names of places in the Torah matching names in Arabia to the letter. Could you please provide some examples or a list of these if possible (a link or something)? I'm interested in this research and that statement caught my eye. Elaboration would be appreciated. Would that definitely prove your theory that the Torah came from Arabia and Israel was actually in Arabia? Very thorough research though )
Thank you
PS is most of your research derived from Salibi's book or do you draw from other authors/your own research? If so, who. Thanx, just curious. -
I know this thread is old now. Just came across this research a few days ago and have been researching the "Torah came from Arabia" theory. I've got quite a few questions but I'm going to focus on one for the moment. Pazuzu, you mention there are 200+ names of places in the Torah matching names in Arabia to the letter. Could you please provide some examples or a list of these if possible (a link or something)? I'm interested in this research and that statement caught my eye. Elaboration would be appreciated. Would that definitely prove your theory that the Torah came from Arabia and Israel was actually in Arabia? Very thorough research though )
Thank you
PS is most of your research derived from Salibi's book or do you draw from other authors/your own research? If so, who. Thanx, just curious.If you are interested in Pazuzu's research and need further evidence please study these books.
In books II and III, you can see many references to Arabic poetry, and Description of Arabia, which match with the names in the Old Testament.
ARABIA The Untold Story
Book 1 The Search for Pharaoh
http//www.scribd.com/doc/132840113/Arabia-The-Untold-Story-Book-1-Search-for-PharaohARABIA The Untold Story
Book 2 Road of the Patriarch
http//www.scribd.com/doc/132844965/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Book-2-Road-of-the-PatriarchARABIA The Untold Story
Book 3 Israel and Sheba
http//www.scribd.com/doc/159441825/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Israel-and-Sheba -
You see the blue circle I have placed on that map? Here's the deal ALL the events mentioned in the Quran took place there. ALL the prophets lived and preached there. Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, the Israelites, Moses , Esau (not Jesus), David, Solomon, Muhamad....They were ALL there. So are the places mentioned in the Quran. Baka, Aad (the descendants of Noah's people), Sheba, Thamud, al- Tur (where God spoke to Moses), the Holy Sacntuary....They are ALL there. Arabic, the ancient, perrenial and "fitri" tongue of mankind emerged from there. The 'Garden" of Adam was there, in the Heights. HUMAN LIFE AS WE KNOW IT BEGAN THERE. This is the truth that you people are refusing to accept.
Salam all
Pazuzu,
In the Holy Quran Chapter 37 - FM Translation
3775
And Noah had called upon Us, for We are the best to respond.
3776
And We saved him and his family from the great disaster.
3777
And We made his progeny the one that remained.
3778
And We kept his history for those who came later.
3779
Peace be upon Noah among the worlds.
3780
It is such that We reward the righteous.
3781
He is of Our believing servants.
3782
Then We drowned the others.
3783
And from his clan was Abraham.
3784
For he came to his Lord with a pure heart.
3785
When he said to his father and his people What are you worshiping?
3786
Is it fabricated gods, instead of GOD that you want?
3787
What do you say of the Lord of the worlds?
3788
Then he looked towards the stars.
3789
And he said I am ill!
3790
So they turned away from him and departed.
3791
He then went to their gods and said Can you not eat?
3792
What is the matter, you do not speak?
3793
So he then turned on them, striking with his hand.
3794
Then they approached him outraged.
3795
He said Do you worship what you carve?
3796
While GOD has created you, and all that you make!
3797
They said Build for him a structure, and then throw him into its fire.
3798
So they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.
3799
And he said I am going to my Lord; He will guide me.
37100
My Lord, grant me from among the righteous.
37101
So We gave him good news of a compassionate child.
37102
And when he grew enough to work with him, he said My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think? He said O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, GOD willing, patient.
37103
So when they both had submitted, and he was laid by his forehead.
37104
And We called him O Abraham,
37105
You have carried out the vision. It was such that We rewarded the righteous.
37106
Surely, this was an exacting test.
37107
And We ransomed him with a great animal sacrifice.
37108
And We kept his history for those who came later.
37109
Peace be upon Abraham.
37110
It is thus that We reward the righteous.
37111
He was of Our believing servants.
37112
And We gave him the good news of the coming of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
37113
And We blessed him and Isaac. And from among their progeny, some are righteous, and some are clearly wicked.
37114
And indeed, We have given Our grace to Moses and Aaron.
37115
And We saved them and their people from the great disaster.
37116
And We supported them, so that they became the winners.
37117
And We gave both the clear Book.
37118
And We guided them to the straight path.
37119
And We kept their history for those who came later.
37120
Peace be upon Moses and Aaron.
37121
We thus reward the righteous.
37122
Both of them were among Our believing servants.
37123
And Elias was one of the messengers.
37124
When he said to his people Would you not be righteous?
37125
Would you call on Baal and forsake the best Creator?
37126
GOD is your Lord, and the Lord of your fathers of old!
37127
But they denied him. Thus they were called to account.
37128
Except for the devoted servants of GOD.
37129
And We kept his history for those who came later.
37130
Peace be upon the family of Elias.
37131
We thus reward the righteous.
37132
He was one of our believing servants.
37133
And Lot was one of the messengers.
37134
When We saved him and all his family.
37135
Except an old woman who remained.
37136
Then, We destroyed the rest.
37137
And you pass by their ruins in the morning;
37138
And in the night. Do you not comprehend?Prophet Muhammad was residing in a location where his ancestors were, that is, the Prophets Noah, Abraham, Ishaq, Elias. . And he were at the location of Shuaib
Nothing is mentioned about the other Prophets mentioned AQ 0683 -89 besides the Prophets mentioned above!
Further
The bless land as dictated in the Holy Quran was very closed to Saba . As we already know that Saba was located somewhere in South Arabia, very close to the Israelite Kingdom. And that the Prophet Sulaiman had been to the bless land from his kingdom by means of the wind that he controlled.
AQ 2181 And to Solomon the wind, blowing forcefully, proceeding by his command toward the land which We had blessed. And We are ever, of all things, Knowing.
The continuation of the above verse is AQ 3412
And to Solomon the wind - its morning - a month - and its departure a month, and We made a flight for him eyeing the territory.....
So, the journey from his kingdom to the bless land, in flight by the winds took him the whole morning, which is about, say, a 4 hours journey, approximately 2000 or so km and that, if he were to go on a land journey, equivalent to 2000 or so km, it will take him a month, assuming if he rides on a young fit camel, which can travel 70 km/day.
Since his kingdom was near Sheba, which is in South Arabia, it shows that the Blessed Land can only be located more than 2000 km North, which is, some where in the Levant!
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
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You see the blue circle I have placed on that map? Here's the deal ALL the events mentioned in the Quran took place there. ALL the prophets lived and preached there. Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, the Israelites, Moses , Esau (not Jesus), David, Solomon, Muhamad....They were ALL there. So are the places mentioned in the Quran. Baka, Aad (the descendants of Noah's people), Sheba, Thamud, al- Tur (where God spoke to Moses), the Holy Sacntuary....They are ALL there. Arabic, the ancient, perrenial and "fitri" tongue of mankind emerged from there. The 'Garden" of Adam was there, in the Heights. HUMAN LIFE AS WE KNOW IT BEGAN THERE. This is the truth that you people are refusing to accept.
Salam all
Pazuzu,
In the Holy Quran Chapter 37 - FM Translation
3775
And Noah had called upon Us, for We are the best to respond.
3776
And We saved him and his family from the great disaster.
3777
And We made his progeny the one that remained.
3778
And We kept his history for those who came later.
3779
Peace be upon Noah among the worlds.
3780
It is such that We reward the righteous.
3781
He is of Our believing servants.
3782
Then We drowned the others.
3783
And from his clan was Abraham.
3784
For he came to his Lord with a pure heart.
3785
When he said to his father and his people What are you worshiping?
3786
Is it fabricated gods, instead of GOD that you want?
3787
What do you say of the Lord of the worlds?
3788
Then he looked towards the stars.
3789
And he said I am ill!
3790
So they turned away from him and departed.
3791
He then went to their gods and said Can you not eat?
3792
What is the matter, you do not speak?
3793
So he then turned on them, striking with his hand.
3794
Then they approached him outraged.
3795
He said Do you worship what you carve?
3796
While GOD has created you, and all that you make!
3797
They said Build for him a structure, and then throw him into its fire.
3798
So they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.
3799
And he said I am going to my Lord; He will guide me.
37100
My Lord, grant me from among the righteous.
37101
So We gave him good news of a compassionate child.
37102
And when he grew enough to work with him, he said My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think? He said O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, GOD willing, patient.
37103
So when they both had submitted, and he was laid by his forehead.
37104
And We called him O Abraham,
37105
You have carried out the vision. It was such that We rewarded the righteous.
37106
Surely, this was an exacting test.
37107
And We ransomed him with a great animal sacrifice.
37108
And We kept his history for those who came later.
37109
Peace be upon Abraham.
37110
It is thus that We reward the righteous.
37111
He was of Our believing servants.
37112
And We gave him the good news of the coming of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
37113
And We blessed him and Isaac. And from among their progeny, some are righteous, and some are clearly wicked.
37114
And indeed, We have given Our grace to Moses and Aaron.
37115
And We saved them and their people from the great disaster.
37116
And We supported them, so that they became the winners.
37117
And We gave both the clear Book.
37118
And We guided them to the straight path.
37119
And We kept their history for those who came later.
37120
Peace be upon Moses and Aaron.
37121
We thus reward the righteous.
37122
Both of them were among Our believing servants.
37123
And Elias was one of the messengers.
37124
When he said to his people Would you not be righteous?
37125
Would you call on Baal and forsake the best Creator?
37126
GOD is your Lord, and the Lord of your fathers of old!
37127
But they denied him. Thus they were called to account.
37128
Except for the devoted servants of GOD.
37129
And We kept his history for those who came later.
37130
Peace be upon the family of Elias.
37131
We thus reward the righteous.
37132
He was one of our believing servants.
37133
And Lot was one of the messengers.
37134
When We saved him and all his family.
37135
Except an old woman who remained.
37136
Then, We destroyed the rest.
37137
And you pass by their ruins in the morning;
37138
And in the night. Do you not comprehend?Prophet Muhammad was residing in a location where his ancestors were, that is, the Prophets Noah, Abraham, Ishaq, Elias. . And he were at the location of Shuaib
Nothing is mentioned about the other Prophets mentioned AQ 0683 -89 besides the Prophets mentioned above!
Further
The bless land as dictated in the Holy Quran was very closed to Saba . As we already know that Saba was located somewhere in South Arabia, very close to the Israelite Kingdom. And that the Prophet Sulaiman had been to the bless land from his kingdom by means of the wind that he controlled.
AQ 2181 And to Solomon the wind, blowing forcefully, proceeding by his command toward the land which We had blessed. And We are ever, of all things, Knowing.
The continuation of the above verse is AQ 3412
And to Solomon the wind - its morning - a month - and its departure a month, and We made a flight for him eyeing the territory.....
So, the journey from his kingdom to the bless land, in flight by the winds took him the whole morning, which is about, say, a 4 hours journey, approximately 2000 or so km and that, if he were to go on a land journey, equivalent to 2000 or so km, it will take him a month, assuming if he rides on a young fit camel, which can travel 70 km/day.
Since his kingdom was near Sheba, which is in South Arabia, it shows that the Blessed Land can only be located more than 2000 km North, which is, some where in the Levant!
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
Hello,
what proof do you have for that claim?
And which blue circle and which map you are talking about in your post?
Thanx