Reply to Edip Yuksel
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Tell me weather you agreed "commitment" term for word "Solaat" as used by Aidid Safar ?
I have heard this argument before and I am sorry to say that this is a failed argument. By using simple context anyone with a little common sense can see that Salat is a PHYSICAL RITUAL prayer. You cannot use the word Salat to mean commitments since the context doesn't fit.
2238 Preserve the contact prayers, and the middle contact prayer, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
If salat meant commitments then why would anyone worry about doing it in cases where they are preoccupied. Wouldn't they do it some other time??? confused Also did you notice the phrase "state of worry".
What about Solomon and his horses....
3831 When, during dusk, well trained horses were displayed before him
3832 He said, "I enjoyed the good of materials more than I enjoyed remembering my Lord, until it became totally dark!"
3833 "Send them back." He then rubbed their legs and necks.In the case above it is my view that Solomon missed the middle pray. If Salat meant commitments than why couldn't Solomon do it some other time. Why is he so obsessed about the fact that it became totally dark and he forgot to 'remember' or 'give commemoration ' to God . Also shouldn't his uneasiness about missing 'remembrance' or 'commemoration of God' during a specific time of the day imply that commitments is not what he was talking about.
What about this verse....
4102 If you are with them and hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; let a group who has not yet contacted come and contact with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The ingrates hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you keep from placing down your weapons. Be wary. God has prepared for the ingrates a humiliating retribution.
How can salat here mean commitments in the above verse. Doesn't this verse imply Salat is a physical ritual prayer that has to done? Why would any solider guard someone during war time to do a simple thing like commitments??? Doesn't this show that Salat is something more than commitments?
The above verse when when read and thought through carefully should be sufficient proof that Salat does not mean commitment. Salat is a physical ritual prayer. The history of the people of the Book should also be a clear proof that Salat is a physical ritual that has be in existence for centuries.
2278 Strive in the cause of God properly. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'those who have peacefully surrendered' from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.
I have argued this case on the forum before and so far no one has been able to give me a straight answer to refute the proofs which I gave from the Quran. So if you are serious about debating the issue then I welcome it.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salam,
I read the beginning of this thread but had to leave town and these are some of the exact same examples, posted above, were ones I was thinking of posting when I came back. I agree, Salat is a ritual prayer, along with ablution with and without water. The Rites and Rituals decreed by God, and also the Commandments on our Code of Conduct are not meaningless actions, nor are they symbolic nor are they "optional" for believers.
Our Religion is the totality of our practices, our righteous works, both physical and mental.
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Salam,
I read the beginning of this thread but had to leave town and these are some of the exact same examples, posted above, were ones I was thinking of posting when I came back. I agree, Salat is a ritual prayer, along with ablution with and without water. The Rites and Rituals decreed by God, and also the Commandments on our Code of Conduct are not meaningless actions, nor are they symbolic nor are they "optional" for believers.
Our Religion is the totality of our practices, our righteous works, both physical and mental.
Mr.Q makes a good point. I have been reading some of threads on this forum about those who don't believe in ritual prayers or any ritual practices. Two of there most famous arguments are that God doesn't need rituals and rituals have no real purpose so why should we do them. What they fail to realize is that it has absolutely nothing to do about God. Rituals are not meant for God, they are meant for us. God commanded us to do them. If you want to call yourself a true servant of God you do as you are commanded to do. You don't do what you feel when you feel like it. The only people that do those sort of things are disbelievers.
Peace,
Kevin.
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I am going to say something here as I think that this is a very important subject and strikes at the heart of how many Koranist interpret the Koran. I am not going to dwell on the specifics but iw ant to say something abouyt the strategy used by many Koranist when they approach the Koran.
First of all Aidid strikes me as a linguistic, that is he tends to interpret the Koran only through linguistic understanding. That is always problematic because the way the Koran uses language varies from verse to verse. So when the Koran says "they have a sickness in their hearts" this is very different than how a doctor or surgeon understands heart sickness. Trrying to interpret the Koran only on a linguistic basis is very tricky. We know the Koran can use the same term variantly, sometimes allegorically and sometimes literally. It is always best to interpret the Koran linguistically but also contextually and also logically. By looking at how the Koran sees things in general, and how it fits with human logic we can understand the Koran better. The Koran should be seen as a whole and not in parts and pieces.
Second. Their seems to be a misunderstanding what rituals are. Rituals are a means to an end but not an end by itself as the Sects believe. Sunnis or Shias generally see rituals as an end to itself which is why they tell you that you must pray this way or that. They can say your prayers in "batil" meaning wrong and won't be accepted. They also believe in time frames and so on. So a monotheist and a polytheist could both be doing identical rituals but for a different theology. There is nothing called a "pagan ritual". Its only pagan when its dedicated to many gods.
Third, I think its always wise to take a glance at the previous scriptures to see how these scriptures understood religion and then compare that with the Koran. Too many Koranist simply ignore the previous scriptures. The previous scriptures can offer many insights as to how religion was understood. And this can gives us insights into what the Koran generally means and how the Koran understands rituals.
Koranist who come from a Muslim background generally struggle with the issue of legalism and ritualism. Paul was the same thing. he came from a Pharisaic background and probably was the only Gospel character who came from that background. he struggled with the law. Pharisaic Judaism (Rabbinic Judaism) is very simlar to Islam in that its very legalistic and ritualistic. Jesus's disciples did not have the same issues that Paul had. They did not come from this very legalistic and ritualistic background. Often many Koranist generally tend to shun ritualism as they see it void of any spirituality. But this could be only because of the Islamic background they come from and how they see Muslims practice rituals. Rituals are a very human thing and exist in almost all societies and religions. They are a convenient way for people to have a collective faith.
But their is a problem how many here see paganism. Pagnism is very differnt than how many people think it is. There is a very good lecture by a professor from yale that outlines the main difference between paganism and monotheism. As can be seen in this lecture, paganism is a theological process and not just rituals and legalism.
http//academicearth.org/lectures/biblical-religion
This lecture is absolutely crucial in understanding paganism. Too many Koranist throw the pagan label and shirk label without understanding what it all means.
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So when the Koran says "they have a sickness in their hearts" this is very different than how a doctor or surgeon understands heart sickness.
This changes the subject and predicate of Arabic sentence. The subject is "a disease", and the prepositional phrase is relating to the elided predicate, in the inverted Arabic sentence.
Word by Word-210
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I agree with Kevin,
You shall settle down in your homes, and do not mingle with the people excessively, like you used to do in the old days of ignorance. You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and obey GOD and His messenger. GOD wishes to remove all unholiness from you, O you who live around the Sacred Shrine, and to purify you completely.
Remember what is being recited in your homes of GOD's revelations and the wisdom inherent therein. GOD is Sublime, Cognizant.
It seems Salat is a ritual, Wives of the Prophet were oredered told to stay at home , as much as possible or most of the time , and Observe Salat and Give Zakat . if salat is not ritual then what is it ? some believe that salat means to go out and do good deeds. was Prophet's Wives's salat different from the rest of us or the same , i trust its the same salat which has been ordained to mankind.
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Mr.Q makes a good point. I have been reading some of threads on this forum about those who don't believe in ritual prayers or any ritual practices. Two of there most famous arguments are that God doesn't need rituals and rituals have no real purpose so why should we do them. What they fail to realize is that it has absolutely nothing to do about God. Rituals are not meant for God, they are meant for us. God commanded us to do them. If you want to call yourself a true servant of God you do as you are commanded to do. You don't do what you feel when you feel like it. The only people that do those sort of things are disbelievers.
Peace,
Kevin.
I don't like this talk of disbelievers. Its a disrespect for that term. A disbeliever will not waste time with the Koran. And if religion was just a tradition, a disbeliever will follow the Sunni/Shia sect as that is what the tradition follows. He or she would not waste their time here. If people find that there are other ways to worship God and if that is what they feel moves them closer to God then why should we criticize them?
Whatever they believe salat is, if they do it consistently and do it sincerely then why should it matter? After all the Koran did command people to follow a Qibla only to downplay it later on. Its not cool running around calling others disbelievrs. That is what brought down the salafi persuasion. Trust me, a disbeliever will not waste their time except to critique the Koran.
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.......... and if not then kindly provide logical ans pls
I will inshallah. I need to read the article, which is too long and has a bad format.
Peace,
Edip -
I agree with KDC501, the Salat, as a contact prayer, is a gift from God, and it is good for us!
God doesn't need anything from us, we came down to this Earth to repent and correct our subconscious doubt about God Alone! -
I don't like this talk of disbelievers. Its a disrespect for that term. A disbeliever will not waste time with the Koran. And if religion was just a tradition, a disbeliever will follow the Sunni/Shia sect as that is what the tradition follows. He or she would not waste their time here. If people find that there are other ways to worship God and if that is what they feel moves them closer to God then why should we criticize them?
Whatever they believe salat is, if they do it consistently and do it sincerely then why should it matter? After all the Koran did command people to follow a Qibla only to downplay it later on. Its not cool running around calling others disbelievrs. That is what brought down the salafi persuasion. Trust me, a disbeliever will not waste their time except to critique the Koran.
I never called anyone on this forum a disbeliever. I said those who don't do what God commanded them to do and do whatever they feel when they feel like it are disbelievers.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salam,
We dont need to call anyone a disbeliever. God describes them by their actions and ways of thinking. It is He alone who defines what a disbeliever is.
For example, God calls the devil a disbeliever, even though the devil certainly "believes" in God. He knew Him personally! But he is a disbeliever because he disobeys God and does not lead a righteous life by upholding and following Gods Commanments.
They, "disbelievers", are also described in the Quran, as those who do not respond to God, or do not worship God in the manner He decreed, or do not obey Him, or do not believe in His Revelations, or do not uphold His Commandments or practice the Religion He has decreed. This description includes people who say "I believe" yet fail to become "Righteous" and fail to follow His Path or practice their religion seriously. That's a huge point to understand; that many people who say they "believe" are classified by God as "disbelievers" because of what they do and do not do.
God just defines and describes these terms and categories of people but it is our choices and behavior in our lives that put ourselves into any of them. Its the Test of this life and we will invariably choose where we will end up.
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Salam,
We dont need to call anyone a disbeliever. God describes them by their actions and ways of thinking. It is He alone who defines what a disbeliever is.
For example, God calls the devil a disbeliever, even though the devil certainly "believes" in God. He knew Him personally! But he is a disbeliever because he disobeys God and does not lead a righteous life by upholding and following Gods Commanments.
They, "disbelievers", are also described in the Quran, as those who do not respond to God, or do not worship God in the manner He decreed, or do not obey Him, or do not believe in His Revelations, or do not uphold His Commandments or practice the Religion He has decreed. This description includes people who say "I believe" yet fail to become "Righteous" and fail to follow His Path or practice their religion seriously. That's a huge point to understand; that many people who say they "believe" are classified by God as "disbelievers" because of what they do and do not do.
God just defines and describes these terms and categories of people but it is our choices and behavior in our lives that put ourselves into any of them. Its the Test of this life and we will invariably choose where we will end up.
The devil is not a good example as he is not invloved in faith as humans are. Plus it was not just Satan's disobedience that put him in a conflict with God but also the reasons he gave why he disobeyed God. Mainly arrogance and envy. We meanwhile have only faith to go by. That is the whole point of the devil's contract with God. The criteria God gave for humans is believing that God is one and the hereafter. Trying to move away from that criteria will lead us all astray as it had with the sects who introduced other concepts and criteria for faith. We are in fact to them disbelievers, not because we deny God and the hereafter, but because we are "deniers of the Sunnah and outside the consensus of the Ummah".
We come from many backgrounds, but many of us come from religious background where terms like kufr, haram and shirk are used generously. But a glance at the Koran reveals to us that these terms are very heavy terms not to be used casually whenever someone disagrees with us or has an alternative interpretation of the Koran than us. We must not start interpreting kufr the way we think, but how the Koran uses that term.