Similar and firm verses
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Peace dear brother Kyle,
This verse is telling us that there are verses from GOD's Book that ONLY GOD knows the total truth of.
No, not ONLY the God, "Joseph" was given from the interpretation as well.
What brother Damon is saying is in agreement with what you are saying. From/some of the interpretation of "ahadith"/sayings is not the same as the total.
Please note that the dreams that Yusuf interpreted contained both allegorical and physical elements that actually happened. This confirms that allegorical and physical are not mutually exclusive in "taawil"/original interpretation.
That is fine and that is your option. I am not satisfied in guessing, because guessing is no substitute for the truth. There is no way I can KNOW that it is from the God, I have faith that it is because the parts I have been able to verify lead me to have faith in the rest, but I do expect that the proper understanding will be given to me the harder and longer and more patiently I seek for the understanding.
I think that this is the same thing that we all do here. I don't see any disagreement between this and what brother Damon is saying.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
What brother Damon is saying is in agreement with what you are saying. From/some of the interpretation of "ahadith"/sayings is not the same as the total.
No, Joseph was not given the total understanding of life, but he was given the total understanding of his vision FROM the intepretation of the stories, how else could he know this was his vision? He would have only been guessing if he wasnt given th etotal understanding of that PARTICULAR vision.
Please note that the dreams that Yusuf interpreted contained both allegorical and physical elements that actually happened. This confirms that allegorical and physical are not mutually exclusive in "taawil"/original interpretation.
Yes, but the literal happenings were not planetary objects getting on the ground.
idolfree1 wrote
That is fine and that is your option. I am not satisfied in guessing, because guessing is no substitute for the truth. There is no way I can KNOW that it is from the God, I have faith that it is because the parts I have been able to verify lead me to have faith in the rest, but I do expect that the proper understanding will be given to me the harder and longer and more patiently I seek for the understanding.I think that this is the same thing that we all do here. I don't see any disagreement between this and what brother Damon is saying.
I get the idea that there are some here who do not think that we will fully understand some of these stories if we strive to do so, I disagree with that and I am not sure that is everyones shared opinion here. Damon, is that your opinion as well?
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Peace brother Kyle,
No, Joseph was not given the total understanding of life, but he was given the total understanding of his vision FROM the intepretation of the stories, how else could he know this was his vision? He would have only been guessing if he wasnt given th etotal understanding of that PARTICULAR vision.
As you say, he was given FROM the original 100% true interpretation of the stories, but I disagree with ALL. For example, he knew that one of his jail mates would be crucified while the other would be spared. There is no indication that he knew whether the person who will be crucified was innocent or guilty. Also, the other character in the vision are the flying creatures that will eat from his head. Did those flying creatures take some food to their young ones or not. As you see, Yusuf didn't know ALL the true interpretation/realization but he knew SOME/FROM.
Yes, but the literal happenings were not planetary objects getting on the ground.
Yusuf didn't ONLY interpert the dream about the planets. How about the dream about the person who will be executed?
Yusuf's interpretation of this dream (described like the great reading as a "hadith"/saying/story) was literal. Hence, the literal and the allegorical are not mutually exclusive. Hadiths/stories/sayings can be both literal and allegorical.
I get the idea that there are some here who do not think that we will fully understand some of these stories if we strive to do so, I disagree with that and I am not sure that is everyones shared opinion here. Damon, is that your opinion as well?
Will you stop striving when you think that you understood these stories?
Is our purpose to "strive" or to "understand everything 100%"?
How can you, out of all people, disconnect those stories from "everything"?
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace be with you Brother Kyle, all
Brother Kyle Wrote
I disagree with this. I base that on these verses of GOD's Book
This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the contact-method, and from Our provisions to them they spend.Yes, believe in the unseen, not unknown.
I will try to demonstrate, GW, how the term Al-Ghaiyb does not only apply to that which our eyesight cannot perceive. It is an non-perception of the mental/intellectual faculties as well.
How do you get that extended definition from the simple word "ghayb"(unseen)? How does the definition for unknown get mixed with unseen?
If we closely examine some of the verses from GOD's Book, we can see where definitions other than Unseen are the obvious meanings. We do this by examining the use of the word (and the derivatives) as well as The Context in which it is placed.
We can start by examining 231-33
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know al ghaiyb of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?In this passage, GOD is addressing the Descriptions of things and not what these things look like. Thus, the meaning that only GOD knows Al-Ghaiyb (Unseen, Unperceived, Unknown). In this passage, unseen in the sense of sight perception would not fit, because we are not talking about what is seen or not seen. It is talking about what is Known and Not-Known. I want to post just a few more verses to establish the pattern that this term is used numerous times in GOD's Book to point out things that are Unknown/Unperceived.
The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
Here again we have ghaiyb. This time it is talking certain matters that only The Husband and Wife Should KNOW. It has nothing to do with what only the Husband and Wife should See. It is talking about guarding the Unknown Secrets between them.
And God will Say O Jesus son of Mary, did you tell the people to take you and your mother as gods instead of God? He said Be you glorified, I cannot say what I have no right of. If I had said it then You know it, You know what is in my soul while I do not know what is in Your soul. You are the Knower of al ghaiyb.
Once again, the Context of the verse lets us know what al-ghaiyb is spoken of here, which is whether or not 'Esa told the people to worship him and his mother instead of GOD. Part of 'Esa's response was him admitting to GOD that if he had said these things, GOD would Know So because HE has full knowledge of al-ghaiyb (unperceived, unknown, unseen).
If I may, three other verses which I believe really establishes this concept beyond doubt.
The Day God will gather the messengers and He will Say What was the response you received?; they said We have no knowledge, you are the Knower of all the unseen.
Here again, al ghaiyb is used to show something that is known or not known. More importantly, this verse clearly says that GOD is Al 'Alim al-ghaiyb. These next two verses do the exact same thing. They show that the discussion is about that which is either known/perceived or unknown/unperceived. They also remind us that GOD is the One who knows the unknown/unperceived/unseen.
And with Him are the keys to the unknown/unperceived/unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the Earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear record.
Did they not know that God knows their secrets, and their conspiracies, and that God is the knower of all the unseen?
You do not See/Not See secrets and conspiracies. You Perceive/Realize or Not Perceive/Not Realize secrets and conspiracies. Sorry for the many verses being posted, but I wanted to show that there is a pattern in GOD's Book that demonstrate the usage of Al Ghaiyb to mean somethings that are not known or perceived by us as humans.
I still disagree, the God gives us stories of unseen events (although these "events" happen all the time in everyones lives), and the God explains them so we become concious of these happenings. he helops us to understand the processes of the mind, which is jinn(covered).
Yes, be we must always keep in mind that GOD has said plenty of times in His Book that He reserves the right to guide whomever He pleases and that some people will not be guided by Him. And WHO is there to guide us if GOD decides not to guide us Himself?? If He decrees misguidance for anyone, then there's nothing we can do about that. I am not that brilliant and intellectual that I can still find the truth to some things even if GOD has decreed that I do not find the truth to them. Just because we are GOD Alone/Quran Alone Believers doesn't mean that we are going to know everything there is to know.
No, not ONLY the God, "Joseph" was given from the interpretation as well.
As Ayman already pointed out, he was given FROM the interpretation. He was not given THE interpretation of all things.
He may or may not reveal them to certain people. But we, The firm Believers, say that We Believe in them anyway because we know that ALL of the ayaat are from our Lord.
That understanding does not fly for me. How do we KNOW it is from our Lord? Thats like looking at some of the good verse in the so called Bible, but then saying that the rest MUST be from the God, that is not logical.
I believe you are misunderstanding my statement. We KNOW it is from our Lord because GOD says in 37 that is what distinguishes the firm believers from those with Ill Intentions. Your analogy with the Bible is mixing appples and oranges because that isn't what I said at all my Brother. But, I must ask, How do you interpret 37?
He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are firm verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar to each other. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge. They say We believe in it, all is from our Lord. And none will remember except the people of understanding.
I believe an example of the Mutashabihaat would be 3340. In this verse, it is said that Muhammad is The "SEAL" of The Prophets!! Some interpret this to mean that he has sealed prophethood while others interpret it to meant that A Muhammad "SEALS" the prophets Before him, and by extension, Another Muhammadun will "SEAL" the line of prophets After him. I really do believe that it can go either way, and I think that there are some pretty strong cases presented for both views.
So will you stay in limbo regarding this issue, content to remian with doubt?
Actually brother, I never said anything about doubt at all. I am not in doubt of anything concerning this verse. Also, I am not in limbo. As of right now, my personal belief is that He sealed prophethood entirely. I also believe that this sealing means the end of newly revealed scripture. I base this on context of the verse as wll as usage of the word Khatam in other passages of The Book. But I am admitting that I have read other arguments and views that are pretty strong. So, my view could be correct or it could be incorrect. All of our views could be incorrect. Only GOD Knows for sure since He's the one who said it. Also, you have omitted my ending sentence in that statement which was...
Unless and Until GOD reveals the truth of this to me, I am perfectly satisfied knowing that it is from GOD, and only GOD knows The Absolute Truth.
This lets everyone know that I am not in a state of limbo or doubt.
That is fine and that is your option. I am not satisfied in guessing, because guessing is no substitute for the truth.
My brother, where have I mentioned anything about guessing? I never said anything about guessing. I am also against guessing. You are absolutely correct. Guessing is no substitute for the truth. But I also know that my personal understanding isn't necessarily the truth either since 100% truth and Knowledge of All Things is strictly GOD's Domain.
There is no way I can KNOW that it is from the God, I have faith that it is because the parts I have been able to verify lead me to have faith in the rest
For the most part, I believe that you and I are basically saying the same thing here. I do say that I KNOW it is from GOD because as you pointed out, the parts I have been able to verify. I Know that all of the ayaat of GOD's Book are from GOD. I am 100% frim on that.
but I do expect that the proper understanding will be given to me the harder and longer and more patiently I seek for the understanding.
I see your point very clearly bro. But me personally, I hope that the proper understanding will be given to me after I out in alot of time of studying and research. But, whether or not I do get the proper understanding is totally GOD's choice. It is 100% up to GOD whether or not I get the proper understanding.
I get the idea that there are some here who do not think that we will fully understand some of these stories if we strive to do so, I disagree with that and I am not sure that is everyones shared opinion here. Damon, is that your opinion as well?
Yes it is, based upon the explanation of this position that I have posted so far in this thread. If we start to arrogantly take the position that we can become some know it alls, then we have not learned from the story of Moses in 1860-82. We must remember to guard ourselves against this spirit and attitude.
They call Ph.d's and M.D.'s Terminal degrees to signify that these people supposedly know all that there is to know in their chosen fields. We should remember that they also call Cancer and Aids Terminal Illnesses. If we take on the attitude that we either know and/or can know all that there is in this life, then we are killing our humility and our spirits with a Terminal Illness. cry We must always be careful of this.
Salaam Family.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
I agree that "ghayb" is the unknown.
We are told to believe in the unknown, thus we are sure that our knowledge is limited, and we leave a room for other things that we don't know (not yet).
This imply humility in our attitude and the ever-lasting need of acquiring more knowledge. Not like the arrogants, those who think that they know all, and close any door for discussion. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
First, let me apologize for any of my comments which were out of character for one who submits to the One God. I slip from time to time out of my peace and become impatient. There is no excuse for that, again I apologize.
Now to the debate.
I will try to demonstrate, GW, how the term Al-Ghaiyb does not only apply to that which our eyesight cannot perceive. It is an non-perception of the mental/intellectual faculties as well.
I have to ask, what motive does the mind have to even TRY to percieve that which is unknown? Have you ever tried to percieve a "cabbledaper"? No, because I made that word up, but for sake of discussion, asmue it is something real, but while it remains unknown, who percieves to understand it?
If we closely examine some of the verses from GOD's Book, we can see where definitions other than Unseen are the obvious meanings. We do this by examining the use of the word (and the derivatives) as well as The Context in which it is placed.
I agree 100%.
We can start by examining 231-33
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said ?Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.?
They said ?Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.?
He said ?O Adam, inform them of the description of these,? so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said ?Did I not tell you that I know al ghaiyb of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding??In this passage, GOD is addressing the Descriptions of things and not what these things look like.
I disagree, why did the God DISPLAY them before the malaika if it had nothing to do with sight?
(231) And He taught Adam the description/names, all of them, then He displayed/exhibited/showed them on (to) the malaika, so He said "Inform Me with (the) descriptons/names (of) those, if you were truthful."
Let me give you my understanding of the verse first before we continue.
The God informed the physical man (adam) of the description of all things. But then he DISPLAYED physical things to the MENTAL realm where thoughts (malaika) reside. Thoughts alone cannot understand the physical realm, they require the INTERMEDIARY of the physical body(adam) with its senses or SIGHT. hearing, etc to explain it, which is why we read;(233) He said "You, Adam, inform them with their names." ...
It is through the senses of the physical body that thoughts can be correctly formed. We have to experience the Creation in order to properly understand the signs. One does not truly KNOW something until they SEE it for themselves.
Thus, the meaning that only GOD knows Al-Ghaiyb (Unseen, Unperceived, Unknown). In this passage, unseen in the sense of sight perception would not fit, because we are not talking about what is seen or not seen. It is talking about what is Known and Not-Known.
I disagree based on the information I gave above. The God DISPLAYED THEM. This deals with SIGHT, the physical experience.
I want to post just a few more verses to establish the pattern that this term is used numerous times in GOD's Book to point out things that are Unknown/Unperceived.
I am following along.
The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
What is the arabic for "personal matters"? I think that translation is incorrect. Here is the literal trans from the father and daughter team.
(434) The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
I see this as being that which goes on in the household, which is SEEn by the couple, but not others (where personal matters would come from), or could be protecting the private parts which are SEEN by the couple but not seen by others.
Here again we have ghaiyb. This time it is talking certain matters that only The Husband and Wife Should KNOW. It has nothing to do with what only the Husband and Wife should See. It is talking about guarding the Unknown Secrets between them.
Only the husband and wife can SEE what goes on in thier home. No one else SEES this and the righteous spouse safeguards what is unseen by others, therfore unknown. Knowing is a product of seeing/experiencing as shown by the example of Adam and his thoughts(malaika).
And God will Say ?O Jesus son of Mary, did you tell the people to take you and your mother as gods instead of God?? He said ?Be you glorified, I cannot say what I have no right of. If I had said it then You know it, You know what is in my soul while I do not know what is in Your soul. You are the Knower of al ghaiyb.?
Yes, the God is knower of what is in the MINDS(nafs). That which is in the MINDS is unseen by others, but the God sees all.
Once again, the Context of the verse lets us know what al-ghaiyb is spoken of here, which is whether or not 'Esa told the people to worship him and his mother instead of GOD. Part of 'Esa's response was him admitting to GOD that if he had said these things, GOD would Know So because HE has full knowledge of al-ghaiyb (unperceived, unknown, unseen).
Keep in mind that knowing is a product of seeing. If you don't SEE IT, you are only guessing.
If I may, three other verses which I believe really establishes this concept beyond doubt.
I am following.
The Day God will gather the messengers and He will Say ?What was the response you received??; they said ?We have no knowledge, you are the Knower of all the unseen.?
They cannot have knowledge because they did not SEE the response, therefoore they do not know. But what I am trying to get you to see is that the SEEING comes FIRST, and that is what is meant by "Ghayb".
Here again, al ghaiyb is used to show something that is known or not known. More importantly, this verse clearly says that GOD is Al 'Alim al-ghaiyb. These next two verses do the exact same thing. They show that the discussion is about that which is either known/perceived or unknown/unperceived. They also remind us that GOD is the One who knows the unknown/unperceived/unseen.
And with Him are the keys to the unknown/unperceived/unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the Earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear record.
Did they not know that God knows their secrets, and their conspiracies, and that God is the knower of all the unseen?
Nothing here contradicts my position. The God sees all things.
You do not See/Not See secrets and conspiracies.
Exactly, but the God does! D That the point.
You Perceive/Realize or Not Perceive/Not Realize secrets and conspiracies.
Sure, but the God SEES them. I do not disagree to that. Again, that is in line with my position that these things are UNSEEN (ghayb).
Sorry for the many verses being posted, but I wanted to show that there is a pattern in GOD's Book that demonstrate the usage of Al Ghaiyb to mean somethings that are not known or perceived by us as humans.
No need to apologize, this is the only way to get to the bottom of a disagreement. This gives us BOTH the oppurtunity to test our positions.
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I still disagree, the God gives us stories of unseen events (although these "events" happen all the time in everyones lives), and the God explains them so we become concious of these happenings. he helops us to understand the processes of the mind, which is jinn(covered).Yes, be we must always keep in mind that GOD has said plenty of times in His Book that He reserves the right to guide whomever He pleases and that some people will not be guided by Him. And WHO is there to guide us if GOD decides not to guide us Himself?? If He decrees misguidance for anyone, then there's nothing we can do about that. I am not that brilliant and intellectual that I can still find the truth to some things even if GOD has decreed that I do not find the truth to them. Just because we are GOD Alone/Quran Alone Believers doesn't mean that we are going to know everything there is to know.
Do you think I disagree with that? I hope you did not get the impression that I was saying I understood 100% of the stories. What I am saying is that with patience and "salaat" , I intend to understand as much as I deserve to understand. You reap only what you sow. We all have the potential to understand this message, we just have to WORK at it.
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No, not ONLY the God, "Joseph" was given from the interpretation as well.As Ayman already pointed out, he was given FROM the interpretation. He was not given THE interpretation of all things.
Both of you misunderstood me. I am not saying that "joesph" understood ALL THINGS, but he got 100% understanding of that particular vision, so as we read these stories which create visions in our MINDS(nafs), we TOO can eventually understand the REAL LIFE meanings these stories contain. Do you agree or disagree to that?
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That understanding does not fly for me. How do we KNOW it is from our Lord? Thats like looking at some of the good verse in the so called Bible, but then saying that the rest MUST be from the God, that is not logical.I believe you are misunderstanding my statement. We KNOW it is from our Lord because GOD says in 37 that is what distinguishes the firm believers from those with Ill Intentions. Your analogy with the Bible is mixing appples and oranges because that isn't what I said at all my Brother.
It is not mixing apples and oranges. You are stating that if we know SOME OF IT is true, then we are to accept the WHOLE of it as true. I do not follow that logic and I used the so called bible as my example.
But, I must ask, How do you interpret 37?
The God is talking about Al Kitaab, the ever unfolding book of life, not this reading(quran). Some of the signs in life are clear and straightfoward, others are similar. Are you familiar with the phrase "as above so below"? Its kind of like this, just as the physical body (below) needs food to eat, so does the spiritual body(above) needs food to eat. Another way of saying it is "On earth as it is in heaven". I will try to post more abou this on the thread for 37.
I deleted the responses regarding my stating you were in doubt and the issue of "seal". I was out of character when I gave that statement, and have apologized*
For the most part, I believe that you and I are basically saying the same thing here. I do say that I KNOW it is from GOD because as you pointed out, the parts I have been able to verify. I Know that all of the ayaat of GOD's Book are from GOD. I am 100% frim on that.
This is again the situation that caused me to bring up the bible similitude. To say you KNOW all is from the God because SOME of it is confirmed is not logical. We can do the same for the bible which contains some very good messages.
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but I do expect that the proper understanding will be given to me the harder and longer and more patiently I seek for the understanding.I see your point very clearly bro. But me personally, I hope that the proper understanding will be given to me after I out in alot of time of studying and research. But, whether or not I do get the proper understanding is totally GOD's choice. It is 100% up to GOD whether or not I get the proper understanding.
I disagree, it is OUR choice! D There are no "chosen" people, there are only the CHOOSING people! D Do you see the difference? Can you feel the power and RESPONSIBILITY in that statement? We reap ONLY what we sow, so how do you say its up to the God? If two men work EQUALLY hard at the same project, will the God be unfair and grant the reward only to one of them? The God promises that we will be rewarded for what we do. Please think on this hard.
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I get the idea that there are some here who do not think that we will fully understand some of these stories if we strive to do so, I disagree with that and I am not sure that is everyones shared opinion here. Damon, is that your opinion as well?Yes it is, based upon the explanation of this position that I have posted so far in this thread. If we start to arrogantly take the position that we can become some know it alls, then we have not learned from the story of Moses in 1860-82. We must remember to guard ourselves against this spirit and attitude.
No, No, No! D How do you get arrogance out of a statement of confidence? I never said I know it all, I only said that we are all capable of understanding the message that was sent to us for us to understand. What is wrong with that? D I have posted my understanding of Sura 70 many times on this forum, which shows that PATIENCE is the KEY to ascension of the mountain(symbolic mountain that is placed above us all).
They call Ph.d's and M.D.'s Terminal degrees to signify that these people supposedly know all that there is to know in their chosen fields. We should remember that they also call Cancer and Aids Terminal Illnesses. If we take on the attitude that we either know and/or can know all that there is in this life, then we are killing our humility and our spirits with a Terminal Illness. We must always be careful of this.
Again! D Brother, please stop implying that I am saying I or anyone knows it ALL, I am only talking about understanding a message that was snet to us to understand, not KNOWING ALL THINGS, there is a great difference and it cannot see why everyone here is trying to keep stating what I am NOT stating.
Let me say this loud and clear NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING, but the human is capable of understanding the God's message to us in detail. The God's message is not ALL THINGS, it is only a GUIDE to help us in the WORLD of ALL THINGS. I hope the confusion of what I am saying is clear.
Finally, I want to address GHAYB again. Please listen careully and think about this before responding.
There is the SEEN world, and there is the UNSEEN world which is covered(jinn) from sight. The UNKNOWN is part of the UNSEEN world because you have to SEE/WITNESS something in order to KNOW it. Now, regarding the UNSEEN world, we have two categories, that which is unseen and also unknown, and that which is unseen but we have some information about it, like wind and thoughts. Out of these two categories the God tells us not to follow one of those paths.
(1736) And pursue not that of which thou have no knowledge,
Before I continue with the rest of this verse, recall that I said the thoughts require the physical body and its SENSES to make it KNOWN.
So 1736 continues..
truly the hearing/listening, and the eye sight, and the heart , all (of) those are/were about it questioned.
Please think over what I have written and give me your response.
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Salaam Brother Kyle and all,
Kyke Wrote
First, let me apologize for any of my comments which were out of character for one who submits to the One God. I slip from time to time out of my peace and become impatient. There is no excuse for that, again I apologize.
No apologies necessary bro. I wasn't offended in anyway during our discussion. D
I have to ask, what motive does the mind have to even TRY to percieve that which is unknown?
Whether you agree or dis-agree, Ghaiyb Definately means that which is unknown and unperceived by the human senses. You have stated in prior posts of this discussion that you believe with sufficient effort and study that we can gain knowledge of Al - Ghaiyb. The only difference is that you believe that Al-Ghaiyb only applies to that which the human eye cannot see.
I disagree, why did the God DISPLAY them before the malaika if it had nothing to do with sight?
The use of the English term Display is only a consequence of the translation that I used. The 'Arabic word 'Arda, like all 'Arabic roots, has a much wider meaning than that which can be Displayed. It is for that reason that Most of the other English translations used the word Presented for this term. Muhammad Asad's translation says something to the effect of Bestowing them to the malakai.
More importantly, you are forgetting some other key terms in this passage, which I have put in bold emphasis below
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know al - ghaiyb of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?It is terribly obvious that this entire situation is not dealing with something that is either seen or not seen. It is dealing with the description of the things that GOD has taught to Adam and that Adam, subsequently, taught to the Angels. We DO NOT physically see knowledge. We are either taught it or not taught it.
Let me give you my understanding of the verse first before we continue.
The God informed the physical man (adam) of the description of all things. But then he DISPLAYED physical things to the MENTAL realm where thoughts (malaika) reside. Thoughts alone cannot understand the physical realm, they require the INTERMEDIARY of the physical body(adam) with its senses or SIGHT. hearing, etc to explain it, which is why we read;I respect your understanding, but in all truthfulness, it is not the result of the context of the verses in question. One would have to force this understanding to come from these verses.
One does not truly KNOW something until they SEE it for themselves.
This isn't true. We cannot see the wind or the breeze. But we know for sure that it exists because we can actually FEEL it. You may want to say that we can SEE the wind and the breeze blowing through the trees and the grass, etc. But this is not the same thing, because those things we are seeing are the Result/Effect that the wind and breeze have. It is not the physically sight of the wind itself. Let me give a better, albeit comical, example.......farting.
You can be sitting down watching a football game with a friend and he tells you that he just let one out. You say that you do not Know this for sure because you cannot See it. Well, about 5 seconds after he told you, lo and behold, you smell a very foul stench in the air. Now you know for sure that he let one out, even though you can't see it. This is just a humorous example of how we don't only gain knowledge of things through sight. GOD says in 1736 that He gave us Hearing and Intellect in addition to sight, which means these also serve a purpose of learning.
What is the arabic for "personal matters"? I think that translation is incorrect. Here is the literal trans from the father and daughter team.
(434) The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
Your statement that I emphasised in bold, I am entitled to ask the same question and give the same opinion based upon the translation you used. Neither one of us can say that our translation preference is the correct one and the other persons preference is incorrect. The same questions and opinions you have for the translation I used, I have the exact same question and opinions of the translation you used. Also, keep in mind that I use several translations and not dedicate myself to just one translation. But, my overall preference is to understand it in light of the Original Arabic Text.
I see this as being that which goes on in the household, which is SEEn by the couple, but not others (where personal matters would come from), or could be protecting the private parts which are SEEN by the couple but not seen by others.
Brother Kyle, can you see emotions?? Can you see the dislike a man may have for his wife? Can you see a suspicion that a wife may have about her husband possibly cheating on her? Can you see the outright hatred that a woman has when her husband leaves the toilet seat up?? No You Cannot!!! You would have to live among them to Know for sure that these different attitudes/spirits and emotions exist Behind Closed Doors.
Again, I personally feel that your understanding of this verse would have to be forced since the context and actual theme of the verse itself does not agree with what you are coming away with.
Only the husband and wife can SEE what goes on in thier home. No one else SEES this and the righteous spouse safeguards what is unseen by others, therfore unknown. Knowing is a product of seeing/experiencing as shown by the example of Adam and his thoughts(malaika).
Not true Kyle. If your wife Tells her sister or her best friend about a very bad situation between you two, she is actually 'Ardu' (presenting/informing) them. They now have knowledge of what's going in in your house. This they learned not from seeing it with their own eyes, nor from experiencing it for themsleves. But from being Told/Informed by your wife. The same as Adam Told/Informed the angels of descriptions of some things.
Keep in mind that knowing is a product of seeing. If you don't SEE IT, you are only guessing.
Please try and keep in mind the examples I gave of the wind, the farting and ones wife informing others about the household affairs. All without the use of sight.
They cannot have knowledge because they did not SEE the response, therefoore they do not know.
Brother Kyle, you are the only one I know who have come up with such a definition. Everyone knows that you do not "SEE" a response. You either Hear someone responding or you Learn of/about someones response, be it directly or indirectly.
But what I am trying to get you to see is that the SEEING comes FIRST, and that is what is meant by "Ghayb".
I understand that "SEEING" has a lot do with Ghaiyb, I have never denied that. I am simply trying to get you to undertsand that "SEEING" is not the primary definition of Ghaiyb. There is no primary definition. You learn the meaning of the word based upon how it is used and in what context. This what determines the meaning of a words usage.
You Perceive/Realize or Not Perceive/Not Realize secrets and conspiracies.
Sure, but the God SEES them. I do not disagree to that. Again, that is in line with my position that these things are UNSEEN (ghayb).
Just understand that perception and realization aren't the sole product of "SEEING" something. I Realize that the flu can render one weak and unabled. I can't "SEE" the flu, but I realize it's effects if I catch it.
I believe you are misunderstanding my statement. We KNOW it is from our Lord because GOD says in 37 that is what distinguishes the firm believers from those with Ill Intentions. Your analogy with the Bible is mixing appples and oranges because that isn't what I said at all my Brother.
It is not mixing apples and oranges. You are stating that if we know SOME OF IT is true, then we are to accept the WHOLE of it as true. I do not follow that logic and I used the so called bible as my example.
I'm sorry that you do not follow this logic, because I do. I not only base this logic on 37, I base it on 226 as well
God does not shy away from citing the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, THEY KNOW that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they Say What does God want with this example? He lets many stray by it, and He guides many, but He only lets stray the evildoers.
The God is talking about Al Kitaab, the ever unfolding book of life, not this reading(quran).
My point exactly.
This is again the situation that caused me to bring up the bible similitude. To say you KNOW all is from the God because SOME of it is confirmed is not logical. We can do the same for the bible which contains some very good messages.
I again refer you to 226.
I disagree, it is OUR choice! D There are no "chosen" people, there are only the CHOOSING people! D Do you see the difference? Can you feel the power and RESPONSIBILITY in that statement? We reap ONLY what we sow, so how do you say its up to the God? If two men work EQUALLY hard at the same project, will the God be unfair and grant the reward only to one of them? The God promises that we will be rewarded for what we do. Please think on this hard.
Again, I believe that 226 applies here as well.
No, No, No! D How do you get arrogance out of a statement of confidence? I never said I know it all, I only said that we are all capable of understanding the message that was sent to us for us to understand. What is wrong with that?
I never accuse you of being arrogant. I was speaking of us all generally. That is why I said WE!! I do this because I know that I have to remember this advice for myself as well as remind others. It was not a statement directed at you specifically. It was a statement that I hope that we all pay heed to. Definately myself included.
Again! D Brother, please stop implying that I am saying I or anyone knows it ALL, I am only talking about understanding a message that was snet to us to understand, not KNOWING ALL THINGS, there is a great difference and it cannot see why everyone here is trying to keep stating what I am NOT stating.
Again bro, I am not implying anything concerning you. And I am not stating that you said something that you did not say. That is something that you do not have to worry about from me. I absolutely will not twist peoples statements or put words in their mouths. That is something that I am firmly against people doing.
Finally, I want to address GHAYB again. Please listen careully and think about this before responding.
There is the SEEN world, and there is the UNSEEN world which is covered(jinn) from sight. The UNKNOWN is part of the UNSEEN world because you have to SEE/WITNESS something in order to KNOW it. Now, regarding the UNSEEN world, we have two categories, that which is unseen and also unknown, and that which is unseen but we have some information about it, like wind and thoughts. Out of these two categories the God tells us not to follow one of those paths.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but within this final analysis of yours, there's an admittance of Al - Ghaiyb being "UNKNOWN" as well as "UNSEEN" which is what I have been advocating from the very start??
Salaam.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
Kyke Wrote
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First, let me apologize for any of my comments which were out of character for one who submits to the One God. I slip from time to time out of my peace and become impatient. There is no excuse for that, again I apologize.No apologies necessary bro. I wasn't offended in anyway during our discussion.
Good, Peace be upon you, lets continue.
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I have to ask, what motive does the mind have to even TRY to percieve that which is unknown?Whether you agree or dis-agree, Ghaiyb Definately means that which is unknown and unperceived by the human senses. You have stated in prior posts of this discussion that you believe with sufficient effort and study that we can gain knowledge of Al - Ghaiyb. The only difference is that you believe that Al-Ghaiyb only applies to that which the human eye cannot see.
Look at the word UnKNOWN. It deals with KNOWledge. We are told not to go after that which we have no knlwledge of. This contradicts the statement that we should have faith in the unKNOWN. You have to at least be aware of something to have faith in it. How can you have faith in something unknown? Can you have faith in a "dupeculdeerer"? But that which is unseen, but still experienced, like thoughts, wind, etc We can have faith in them. We can have faith that very fast winds will be dangerous for us.
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I disagree, why did the God DISPLAY them before the malaika if it had nothing to do with sight?The use of the English term Display is only a consequence of the translation that I used. The 'Arabic word 'Arda, like all 'Arabic roots, has a much wider meaning than that which can be Displayed. It is for that reason that Most of the other English translations used the word Presented for this term. Muhammad Asad's translation says something to the effect of Bestowing them to the malakai.
More importantly, you are forgetting some other key terms in this passage, which I have put in bold emphasis below
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said ?Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.?
They said ?Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.?
He said ?O Adam, inform them of the description of these,? so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said ?Did I not tell you that I know al - ghaiyb of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding??Look again at the verse, Adam was the one taught by the God the description, The malaika physical objects were placed before the malaika and asked to describe them, but since malaika(thoughts) without a human body and its senses cannot describe physical objects, they were unable to do so, So Adam(the physical representation of mankind) began describing these physical objects (all things) by using the senses.
It is terribly obvious that this entire situation is not dealing with something that is either seen or not seen. It is dealing with the description of the things that GOD has taught to Adam and that Adam, subsequently, taught to the Angels. We DO NOT physically see knowledge. We are either taught it or not taught it.
Yes, descriptions can only be given by the being with senses, the human(adam). The malaika prostrate to Adam (except Iblis). So yes, it is dealing with descriptions, but the story is further clarifying that malaika are thoughts by showing us how they could not describe that which was exhibited/shown/displayed to them.
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Let me give you my understanding of the verse first before we continue.
The God informed the physical man (adam) of the description of all things. But then he DISPLAYED physical things to the MENTAL realm where thoughts (malaika) reside. Thoughts alone cannot understand the physical realm, they require the INTERMEDIARY of the physical body(adam) with its senses or SIGHT. hearing, etc to explain it, which is why we read;I respect your understanding, but in all truthfulness, it is not the result of the context of the verses in question. One would have to force this understanding to come from these verses.
I hope after pondering it more you will see how this fits perfectly
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One does not truly KNOW something until they SEE it for themselves.This isn't true. We cannot see the wind or the breeze. But we know for sure that it exists because we can actually FEEL it.
Knowing something and knowing it exsists are two different things. I know the person sitting next to me has a husband , because she left last week to get married and is back talking about her wedding and the time they had. But I do not KNOW her husband. Similarly, one can know that wind exsists, but not really know what it is. Same for energy. Scientists cannot explain it, but they know it exsists. So we have FAITH in that which is unseen, but is known. We do not go after that which we have no knowledge. Whatever you do not WITNESS and EXPERIENCE is only hearsay.
You may want to say that we can SEE the wind and the breeze blowing through the trees and the grass, etc. But this is not the same thing, because those things we are seeing are the Result/Effect that the wind and breeze have. It is not the physically sight of the wind itself. Let me give a better, albeit comical, example.......farting.
Yes, good examples, and you are right, I am not saying we can see the wind or farts, but we have faith in the UNSEEN which we know exsists, but don't know about.
You can be sitting down watching a football game with a friend and he tells you that he just let one out. You say that you do not Know this for sure because you cannot See it. Well, about 5 seconds after he told you, lo and behold, you smell a very foul stench in the air. Now you know for sure that he let one out, even though you can't see it. This is just a humorous example of how we don't only gain knowledge of things through sight. GOD says in 1736 that He gave us Hearing and Intellect in addition to sight, which means these also serve a purpose of learning.
While you know the fart exsists, you do not know what the fart is, there are no visable parts to study. Your frind could have been lying, but your neighbor might be cooking some Chitlens(spelling) which came through your window.
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What is the arabic for "personal matters"? I think that translation is incorrect. Here is the literal trans from the father and daughter team.(434) The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
Your statement that I emphasised in bold, I am entitled to ask the same question and give the same opinion based upon the translation you used. Neither one of us can say that our translation preference is the correct one and the other persons preference is incorrect. The same questions and opinions you have for the translation I used, I have the exact same question and opinions of the translation you used. Also, keep in mind that I use several translations and not dedicate myself to just one translation. But, my overall preference is to understand it in light of the Original Arabic Text.
Which statement was in bold?
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I see this as being that which goes on in the household, which is SEEn by the couple, but not others (where personal matters would come from), or could be protecting the private parts which are SEEN by the couple but not seen by others.Brother Kyle, can you see emotions?? Can you see the dislike a man may have for his wife? Can you see a suspicion that a wife may have about her husband possibly cheating on her? Can you see the outright hatred that a woman has when her husband leaves the toilet seat up?? No You Cannot!!! You would have to live among them to Know for sure that these different attitudes/spirits and emotions exist Behind Closed Doors.
Exactly my point!! Your thoughts alone(malaika) cannot describe the scene, you have toi be present so you can SEE what goes on. "adam" and his senses must be present for the malaika to get a good description.
I am running late and will address the rest of this post tommorrow, unless the God wills.
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Salaam Kyle,
It seems as though we are both SET in our understandings that we have concerning this issue, in which case this will go on possibly forever.
It looks like the only thing we can do is to just agree to disagree. )
Peace be with you.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Damon,
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Finally, I want to address GHAYB again. Please listen careully and think about this before responding.
There is the SEEN world, and there is the UNSEEN world which is covered(jinn) from sight. The UNKNOWN is part of the UNSEEN world because you have to SEE/WITNESS something in order to KNOW it. Now, regarding the UNSEEN world, we have two categories, that which is unseen and also unknown, and that which is unseen but we have some information about it, like wind and thoughts. Out of these two categories the God tells us not to follow one of those paths.Please correct me if I'm wrong, but within this final analysis of yours, there's an admittance of Al - Ghaiyb being "UNKNOWN" as well as "UNSEEN" which is what I have been advocating from the very start??
No, what I am saying is that al ghaiyb is unseen, and unknown is a by product of not seeing. We are told to have faith in the unseen, but we are told to avoid the unknown until we have knowledge of it.
It seems as though we are both SET in our understandings that we have concerning this issue, in which case this will go on possibly forever.
It looks like the only thing we can do is to just agree to disagree
Or continue putting it all together like Auset did for Ausar after SET cut him into 14 pieces. But thats another story (or is it?) D
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Peace idolfree,
How would you qualify belief in Allah i.e. knowing that IT exists? Is it not believing in the unknown, let alone the unseen?
Great discussion.
Regards -
Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
How would you qualify belief in Allah i.e. knowing that IT exists? Is it not believing in the unknown, let alone the unseen?
Great discussion.
Thanks for joining in. I quilify my FAITH (not belief) in the God by witnessing the creation. Faith is something that is built up. So in my lifetime observations, I have witnessed that when something comes to me in an orderly fashion, that an intellegent mind came before it and made it that way. For example, if you went to Mars and found 100 wooden blocks, all the same shape and size, and they were configured into the Alphabet (A,B,C,etc), you would assume that an intelligent MIND was there before you. All one has to do is look at the Atom and how calculated and precise it is, or look at a human being created from a sperm drop. The signs of the exsistence of the God are too numerous to count.
So although the God is unseen, "He" is known about, just like wind and thoughts.
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Peace Idolfree,
Pity there are no atheists/agnostics to try and refute this claim of yours, since I myself goes by this logic. Anyway, this cannot be taken as a universal truth as all people would have believed in a god.
I am trying to say that belief in god which is more or less fact for us is speculation for others since tangible proof is not forthcoming. Hope you understand what I am trying to say. Things our senses can come to bear. I will stop here as I am losing myself in this explanation. Hope others can add to that.Regards
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Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
I am sorry, I was not entirely clear withmy response. Only the part of the God that is manifested can be seen.
Yes, I said it!
Only the part of the God that is manifested can be seen.
We cannot say that we see the God because there are unseen parts to the WHOLE.
So by looking at the processes of life, we are seeing a small aspect of the Creator, but this is not a comparison, because the object can never be compared to the WHOLE(both seen and unseen).
Let me try one more time, there is that which is percieved and there is that which percieves. That which percieves CANNOT be percieved by that which is percieved.
I'm sure I lost somebody there