Hate hate hate hate...
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Atheists bear witness that God exists.
Atheists lie to themselves that God does not exist
"Silence is the most truthful expression of the absolute God. He
concentrated on the eradication of desire, which is essential
requirement to serve God. The followers of Buddha
misunderstood His silence as negation of God and became
atheists. Shankara condemned the followers of Buddha and
not Buddha""A king is a human being but every human being is not
the king. Apart from the basic characteristics of a human
being, the king has some additional specific characteristics
like extraordinary valor, controlling capacity etc., Shankara
just introduced the concept of God by mentioning one
characteristic called awareness only so that atheist accepts the
existence of God event though he fells himself as God due to
the single characteristic (awareness). One merit with 99
defects is better than 100 defects. The ego and jealousy are the
main hindering factors to accept a human being existing
before your eyes as God. This is the most truthful concept but
has the most powerful problem of ego and jealousy. Hence,
this concept cannot be introduced in Toto in the first instance
it self. It has to be introduce partially depending on the
concentration of ego and jealousy. At the time of Shankara, all
were atheists with the highest concentration of ego and
jealousy. Hence, Shankara introduced the human incarnation
with out the name and limiting Himself to one characteristic
(awareness) only so that every one feels that he is God.Thus, their most powerful ego and jealousy were not
hurt and at the same time the concept is introduced by one
percent only. Acceptance of the existence of God itself
reduces the ego and jealousy." -
It is a very interesting and new-to-me way of viewing the situation.. that unbelievers are "not of God". I was at one point a Christian for about ten years before I became an atheist (and now am agnostic, seeking) ... in Christianity they always profess the love of God to everyone, that "You don't love God but God loves you" idea. In a way that was the one and only thing that kept me going as a Christian to begin with.
To think that God would have nothing to do with me as an "unbeliever" is a bit.. depressing.
How can anything of this world not be a part of God? God created everything, or so I thought. Nothing exists but of the will of God, or am I incorrect? Nothing can spontaneously come into existence without God's knowledge or hand in it...
... so how are unbelievers not of God?
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to keep this going when obviously at least one other person feels the issue is done with ("/thread". I, however, continue to feel my question is not answered because I can't imagine anything on Earth not being "of God". Surely God would be angry with those who would reject, but is there not always love and forgiveness still?
How can one find God if God turns His back on the disbelievers? Would God not want to guide anyone who seeks, believer or not?
No man is born a disbeliever. You are forgetting one of the most important things that God gave every single being ....FREE WILL. If a person decides to be a disbeliever it will be based on his or her own actions and God will have nothing to do with it. God only guides those who willingly submit to his will and acknowledge his signs. Those who do no acknowledge his signs and choose willingly to stray have done so on there own account. Love and forgiveness cannot be given to those who do not deserve it. One of the things that I forgot to mention is that there are three basic beliefs that get us into paradise....
- Giving thanks and praise to God and God alone
- Not associating beings with God
- Righteous deeds.
If a person has never heard of any scripture from God it is by these three things he or she will be judged. Now some may say, if these are the three things that get us into paradise then what is to stop a person from following the Quran in the first place? It is my belief that if person is a true servant of God he will see the signs in the Quran and he will willingly submit to its teachings. However every monotheist must uphold the three basics in order for him or her to be an believer. Do not think of a believer as one who only studies a book, but think of a believer as a person who submits to God's will and worships God and GOD alone and who gives thanks to God when it is rightly due. The appreciative are deserving of God's forgiveness and blessings because they are not arrogant. If you notice that one of the basics flaws of human nature is arrogance (our egos and vanity). This is what sets apart the believers from the unbelievers. The unbelievers are arrogant and egoistically they think that they are masters of world and that they do and know everything and that nothing will ever harm them. Read some of the stories in the Quran, like Moses and Pharaoh , and the people of Hud and Saleh and you will understand exactly what I'm talking about.
Most people are arrogant and ungrateful for all the countless gifts that God has bestowed upon them. And what's worse most of them associate things/beings beside God as if these things are things that help them when this is not the case. Do you see why the unbelievers truly deserve hell after all God has given them??? Here is a God that gives us an opportunity of a lifetime (unlimited happiness , peace and prosperity ) and all he asks of us is that we give thanks to him (when it is due) and worship him and him alone and do good deeds and not associate beings with him (as a test) . But instead we do the opposite, we cause corruption on earth, we commit evil against one another, we arrogantly walk the earth as if we are lords of everything and that nothing will touch us, we hate our neighbors unjustly and kill one another and we give absolutely no thanks to God for the blessings he gave us. Do you think that people like these are worthy of the blessings and forgiveness that God will give to the righteous??? They are the same in God's eye. So they will never be treated as the same.
Peace,
Kevin
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Atheists bear witness that God exists.
Atheists lie to themselves that God does not exist
As a former atheist I can assure you that atheists don't go out of their way to "lie" to themselves. In fact, they think the same of believers.. that believers lie to themselves about the existence of God. Currently I'm in the middle as an agnostic.. so I can see both sides. I see the two sides fighting and defaming each other. It is truly a pity.
I do not necessarily think that anyone sets out to deceive themselves. Instead, people simply lose their way.. would it not be wise of God to step in if that was the case?
No man is born a disbeliever. You are forgetting one of the most important things that God gave every single being ....FREE WILL. If a person decides to be a disbeliever it will be based on his or her own actions and God will have nothing to do with it. God only guides those who willingly submit to his will and acknowledge his signs.
You make a good point, I never thought of it like that. At the same time, I keep thinking "what if someone needs help?"
I know for me, I need assistance to see the right way of things.. so, it is almost like a paradox If you don't find the way, then you never get assistance. But if you never get assistance, you may never find the way.
Though people may not be born disbelievers (atheists would disagree, haha), if they fall away it is not always by their own conscious choice. This is something I know personally... so this is all a touchy subject for me.
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions thoughtfully at-length, thank you.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Raine welcome
I'm new here ) I have a question
I've spent a lot of time reading the Qur'an, and it talks a lot about how God basically hates non-believers. I mean a lot. As in constantly.
But it also talks about the forgiveness, mercy, and love of God..
To me right now, these two things seem miles apart. Are not the disbelievers also part of God, made by God, God's creations?
Of course they are GOD's creation!
Whether or not one believes or not.. even if a child strays from his or her parents, do most not still love their children anyway, rather than resort to hate?
Yes. But parents also punish when necessary--and keep promises.
Right now I am not a Muslim.. so God hates me despite any and all efforts to be a good person?
No, GOD doesn't hate you. In fact, GOD helps you when you seek GOD. Although you have free will, don't you think that GOD will help you if you seek? You are not on this web-site by accident. You are probably a good person in need of guidance, and GOD is guiding you.
The label of religion does not matter. Religion is largely dogma, and can even distract from what is important. The system is what is important to apply, specifically the system of monotheism. It is true that the Quran promises a bad end for those that reject monotheism...but you can choose HOW you approach monotheism.
What are your thoughts?
I find no evidence in the Quran that GOD hates anyone or anything. The closest that I find is that GOD can be angered (AQ 472. Having several good translations really helps to understand the Quran. A bad translation is all but useless.
Cheers
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I think that we get caught in words. A kafir is not n atheist, but one who actively fights against God, the believers and does what he or she can to destroy belief. To translate kafir by unbeliever or disbeliever is gross error. Many people brogught up in religious environments and who get frustrated by faults and unsincerity and even cruelty in those environments may be put of by religion and by the mere word "God". But God is not a word and what one person has in hishermind when thinking of god and what another one has may be completely different. And what does all that have to do with God?
but if someone asks it is because he or she already believes there is SOMETHING.
God does not love the kuffar, those wh are cruel for hte sake of cruelty itself, who lie and cheat for the sake of feeling like gods, are they lovable?
Of ocurse they are of God, just like everything that exists, but they must be shown the displeasure and the way to Him. Adn God is free of course to show His rahme as he wills, and his hate is just part of his rahma, because eventually everything will return to Him. some by the sirat al mostaqim, the straight way, some by other means.
Salaam
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I think that we get caught in words. A kafir is not n atheist, but one who actively fights against God, the believers and does what he or she can to destroy belief. To translate kafir by unbeliever or disbeliever is gross error. Many people brogught up in religious environments and who get frustrated by faults and unsincerity and even cruelty in those environments may be put of by religion and by the mere word "God". But God is not a word and what one person has in hishermind when thinking of god and what another one has may be completely different. And what does all that have to do with God?
but if someone asks it is because he or she already believes there is SOMETHING.
God does not love the kuffar, those wh are cruel for hte sake of cruelty itself, who lie and cheat for the sake of feeling like gods, are they lovable?
Of ocurse they are of God, just like everything that exists, but they must be shown the displeasure and the way to Him. Adn God is free of course to show His rahme as he wills, and his hate is just part of his rahma, because eventually everything will return to Him. some by the sirat al mostaqim, the straight way, some by other means.
Salaam
Very, very good point you made Huruf. bravo
I would bet that the word 'kafir' is the most abused word in the quran. The word kafir is NOT a disbeliever. It is someone who believes/knows (better) but his actions are evil. Perhaps the word 'kafir' needs reinterpretation.I also highly disagree with some quranists who have been trapped by their sectarian past, and hence replace 'kafir' with a person who does not believe in quran. You dont HAVE to believe in the quran in order to be a 'muslim' (believer). It is your actions and consciousness which makes you a muslim, hence we have muslims everywhere. And kafirs everywhere(people who do evil when they know its wrong).
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A disbeliever is a polytheist. If you believe wholeheartedly that God is one, (and not creation), you are on the path of monotheism.
(The atheist is also a polytheist, because he has one real God, which he covers over (kufr), and associates these qualities with the universe (typically - "the universe is self-sufficient, and so forth).
Peace.
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Very, very good point you made Huruf. bravo
I would bet that the word 'kafir' is the most abused word in the quran. The word kafir is NOT a disbeliever. It is someone who believes/knows (better) but his actions are evil. Perhaps the word 'kafir' needs reinterpretation.I also highly disagree with some quranists who have been trapped by their sectarian past, and hence replace 'kafir' with a person who does not believe in quran. You dont HAVE to believe in the quran in order to be a 'muslim' (believer). It is your actions and consciousness which makes you a muslim, hence we have muslims everywhere. And kafirs everywhere(people who do evil when they know its wrong).
Salam,
Just a note here. "Belief" alone is not enough to enter Heaven. "Believers" as described in the Quran are those that respond to God and uphold and apply His commandments in their daily lives. Thats what makes them "Righteous". It is from these that God accepts their works, forgives them and grants them paradise. -
I'm new here I have a question
I've spent a lot of time reading the Qur'an, and it talks a lot about how God basically hates non-believers. I mean a lot. As in constantly.
But it also talks about the forgiveness, mercy, and love of God..
To me right now, these two things seem miles apart. Are not the disbelievers also part of God, made by God, God's creations? Whether or not one believes or not.. even if a child strays from his or her parents, do most not still love their children anyway, rather than resort to hate?
Right now I am not a Muslim.. so God hates me despite any and all efforts to be a good person?
What are your thoughts?
CheersSalam and Welcome Raine,
I too come from a non-islamic backround. I was born and raised and live in the USA and 100% of my family and friends were or are various forms of Christians. I was never one of them, but I studied the Bible but could not follow Christianity due to its contradictions and illogical stance on God in areas like the Trinity doctrine and the nature of Jesus. I was an agnostic for many years while I still searched and wondered about God until He had me "stumble upon" Quranist Islam 20 years ago. In a way you are blessed because you haven't been exposed or confused by Hadith and Sunnah and Islamic sectarian teachings or a society that has ingrained certain ways of thinking about the Quran and traditional Islam. You get to come at the Quran with a blank, clean slate.
I understand your view of Quran and it's apparent negativity. I used to be taken back by it myself until you understand that there is a reason for it that you might relate too. Christianity has made God into a love sick animal so loving of man that He has become our servant and nothing we could do would ever anger Him or cause Him to cast us in Hell.
The Quran is blunt and straight forward to dismiss these notions. God is direct so that people will not make the mistake of thinking this life is just a waste of time till Heaven and that they will certainly not misunderstand the nature or consequences of failing the Test of this life. That is actually a Mercy from Him to enable people to understand God is serious about obeying Him and upholding His Commandments.
It is a Beacon, Mercy, Guide and a Healing for Believers but it is also a blunt and severe warning for those that don't believe or reject Him and His teachings. Thats also a Mercy from God so that we will understand clearly what is at stake and what is required of us. Its a little like "tough love" so to speak.
You are here simply because God willed you to be here. He knows your heart and He knows you were "searching" for Him much like He brought me to it a long time ago. God has brought you here and given you a wonderful gift of access to information about Him and Quranist Islam. What you do with this opportunity is part of your Test and I pray you make the best use of it and that you always seek to find God and understand Him with a sincere heart.
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A disbeliever is a polytheist. If you believe wholeheartedly that God is one, (and not creation), you are on the path of monotheism.
(The atheist is also a polytheist, because he has one real God, which he covers over (kufr), and associates these qualities with the universe (typically - "the universe is self-sufficient, and so forth).
Peace.
No.
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A disbeliever is a polytheist. If you believe wholeheartedly that God is one, (and not creation), you are on the path of monotheism.
(The atheist is also a polytheist, because he has one real God, which he covers over (kufr), and associates these qualities with the universe (typically - "the universe is self-sufficient, and so forth).
Peace.
I beg to disagree with you brother.
An atheist is not always a polytheist, but can be a muslim also. It is mostly the idea of a male-god sitting and punishing people especially women, typical in the abrahamic religions (and thats also shirk ) which they reject and hence claim that there is no God - at least in the traditional way God is described as. All religions have failed and are nonsense according to the atheists.
In other words, atheists do not personalize God. He could be the universe as you said, or a system or a law. They are really not sure. But he can impossibly be an old male sitting on a throne an unseen places, as the abrahamic religions tend to believe.
That does not make the atheists polytheists. Its their actions which they would be judged upon.
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Salam,
Just a note here. "Belief" alone is not enough to enter Heaven. "Believers" as described in the Quran are those that respond to God and uphold and apply His commandments in their daily lives. Thats what makes them "Righteous". It is from these that God accepts their works, forgives them and grants them paradise.Peace be upon you brother. Yes you are right that actions matter. Didnt I said that?
There are two kinds of people who are in focus in the holy Quran.
The Mu2meneen and the Kafireen.
What they both have in common is that they BELIEVE IN GOD. However, the mu2meneen also implement their believe in God in their ACTIONS, which means that they are good hearted people who are always kind to other people and always do good deeds. The kafireen however, know that there is a God but they dont fear him. They do EVIL ACTIONS and encourage other people to do evil actions as well. They try to make lawfull evil deeds, and they are evil to other people. They love war and hate peace because peace is booring according to them.
Than there is a third group, called Munafeqeen. They are hypocrites, thats whats make them different from the kafireen, who do evil things openly, while the munafeqeen would pretend to be among the mu2meneen while they are not. They are evil people. Cheating and lying, doing evil deeds but still claim to be among the mu2meneen. That makes them more dangerous than the kafirs.
As you can see everything is about your deeds and actions.
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No. With right belief, comes right action. You don`t have to know much about religion, in modern times, where there is not much open polytheism. You only have to wholeheartedly believe that God is one. (not creation, and I have never said that the universe is God - God is the God OF creation, not IS creation.).
And polytheism equals association. The atheists associate the qualities of God, with other tings, and when they think and speak about this, they cover over the real God. (kufr). If they believe that God was one, these spirits would be supressed, and so it is only the waswas of shaitan.
Everybody has a God. The point is that they have convinced themselves that it either isn`t God, or it has a different name, and it is the universe, or some simpler idol. Some follow ideas that are close to idols.
If someone says "the universe created life". that is association with God. If they say "matter created life", that is also association with God. "Randomness created anything" is also association with God. And this list goes on and on. If one lives in mecca at the time of 360 idols, ofcourse you need a whole book, to deal with the topic.
Ultimately the Quran only deals with monotheism, and that is that God is one. And ofcourse it brings complete surety, when you have a book, that deals again and again with the monotheistic mindset. There is so many who want to associate out there, that indeed, it is a great grace from God, that we have this book.
And no, right action does not bring you to heaven if you do not have a monotheistic mindset.
The quran says "Those who pray, and purify themselves", because purification and a clear spiritfree mind, comes with prayer, which contains the monotheistic mindset. And a spiritfree mind is close to the nature of God.
The godconscious are the best of people - prayer and reading the quran, serves to be godconscious. And that is correct awareness of God, that God is one, monotheistic awareness. And that again is what leads to heaven. Not atheism, although how correct they think they behave it is only shaitanic waswas. Look at Richard Dawkins, he looks 50 years, and has no idea what heaven is. There he is day after day, calling believers names. Going against the truth (which is God). Upholding his same ideas and idols. In complete selfwilling brainwash. When he is to praise something, he has to praise one of his idols. He rejects God. Imagine what that does to a mans heart. Do you still believe his actions will take him to heaven?
And so forth. It
s just a stubborn goat. And when this goat is allowed by law, such as being king somewhere, say Egypts Pharaoes, satan expresses himself to its full extent, and demands worship of him, and kills newborn babies, and a plethora of grotesquenesses, that come with satanic association/belief/polytheism/idolatry/ungodly ideas.You can almost see that with Dawkins aswell. He demands your worship, else he will attack, call you names etc. Ofcourse he is bound by modern law, and democracy.
Peace.
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... it also talks about the forgiveness, mercy, and love of God..
Right now I am not a Muslim.. so God hates me despite any and all efforts to be a good person?Hi Raine welcome
My background is pretty much the same as yours i.e I was previously an atheist, having been a Christian. Let me tell you that one is an unbeliever out of choice just as one becomes a believer by choice. You are obviously a seeker, who wants to do what is good and that, I believe, is the reason why God guides one to belief.
It doesn't happen all in one swoop, but it starts with a conscious decision to submit to God, the Source of all goodness. No matter how much you try, you can never become good without believing in God, and following the path He has blazed for us, that is to believe in Him alone as THE GOD.
In our feeble way as humans we must try to emulate all His qualities, Love and Compassion, Justness and Righteousness etc. When you do that God will love you and throw His full support behind you if you put your trust in Him. I'm not saying that belief makes you Good, but it puts you on the path to goodness where God may eventually purify you.
May God guide you to faith and save you from the fire. pr yes -
Salam and Welcome Raine,
I too come from a non-islamic backround. I was born and raised and live in the USA and 100% of my family and friends were or are various forms of Christians. I was never one of them, but I studied the Bible but could not follow Christianity due to its contradictions and illogical stance on God in areas like the Trinity doctrine and the nature of Jesus. I was an agnostic for many years while I still searched and wondered about God until He had me "stumble upon" Quranist Islam 20 years ago. In a way you are blessed because you haven't been exposed or confused by Hadith and Sunnah and Islamic sectarian teachings or a society that has ingrained certain ways of thinking about the Quran and traditional Islam. You get to come at the Quran with a blank, clean slate.
I understand your view of Quran and it's apparent negativity. I used to be taken back by it myself until you understand that there is a reason for it that you might relate too. Christianity has made God into a love sick animal so loving of man that He has become our servant and nothing we could do would ever anger Him or cause Him to cast us in Hell.
The Quran is blunt and straight forward to dismiss these notions. God is direct so that people will not make the mistake of thinking this life is just a waste of time till Heaven and that they will certainly not misunderstand the nature or consequences of failing the Test of this life. That is actually a Mercy from Him to enable people to understand God is serious about obeying Him and upholding His Commandments.
It is a Beacon, Mercy, Guide and a Healing for Believers but it is also a blunt and severe warning for those that don't believe or reject Him and His teachings. Thats also a Mercy from God so that we will understand clearly what is at stake and what is required of us. Its a little like "tough love" so to speak.
You are here simply because God willed you to be here. He knows your heart and He knows you were "searching" for Him much like He brought me to it a long time ago. God has brought you here and given you a wonderful gift of access to information about Him and Quranist Islam. What you do with this opportunity is part of your Test and I pray you make the best use of it and that you always seek to find God and understand Him with a sincere heart.
This post makes so much sense to me, thank you )
And thanks to everyone who responded, I really appreciate it.
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I beg to disagree with you brother.
An atheist is not always a polytheist, but can be a muslim also. It is mostly the idea of a male-god sitting and punishing people especially women, typical in the abrahamic religions (and thats also shirk ) which they reject and hence claim that there is no God - at least in the traditional way God is described as. All religions have failed and are nonsense according to the atheists.
In other words, atheists do not personalize God. He could be the universe as you said, or a system or a law. They are really not sure. But he can impossibly be an old male sitting on a throne an unseen places, as the abrahamic religions tend to believe.
That does not make the atheists polytheists. Its their actions which they would be judged upon.
Thank you! This is a VERY important distinction to be made!
Great insight for sure.
yay -
While reading the Qur'an I actually came across a very short statement that finally made sense to me. I suppose I must have missed it or not absorbed it through other readings..
"397 If you reject, then know that God is in no need of you (snip)"
This makes sense to me. If you reject, then God has no need of you.. you aren't listening, you aren't trying to listen, you aren't trying to follow, you aren't seeking.. so what can God do with you, I suppose, since we have free will to choose.
This makes sense, and I guess that's an example of the Qur'an containing the answers to my own questions ;D
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Peace and a belated welcome to the forum.
As a former atheist I can assure you that atheists don't go out of their way to "lie" to themselves. In fact, they think the same of believers.. that believers lie to themselves about the existence of God. Currently I'm in the middle as an agnostic.. so I can see both sides. I see the two sides fighting and defaming each other. It is truly a pity.
The way I look at it is are you a good person? I don't care what you call yourself, but if you do more good deeds, than bad, you are a muslim in my eyes. Is God really concerned with the superficial? 'Belief in God' to me is not a literal saying. Anyone can profess anything; It's our actions that define us. So, to me, when you do good deeds, you are professing your belief in God. With that in mind, I think atheists can be muslim. You also have to realize that the term 'disbeliever/unbeliever' can be easily misinterpreted. You won't find a single example of a disbeliever being a good person, these are bad, evil, tyrannical, violent and oppressive people. It's not just a case of them being good people, but denying the existence of God. Again, by your actions you prove whether you believe in God or not. 65 also defines them as those who deny the truth when it comes to them.
Take The Moses story in the Quran, for example. God knew the choice Phaoroh would make right? But what does he tell Moses? "So say to him soft words, perhaps he will remember or take heed." - 2044
We are all given a fair shot to reform.
At the same time, I keep thinking "what if someone needs help?"
I know for me, I need assistance to see the right way of things.. so, it is almost like a paradox If you don't find the way, then you never get assistance. But if you never get assistance, you may never find the way.
Though people may not be born disbelievers (atheists would disagree, haha), if they fall away it is not always by their own conscious choice. This is something I know personally... so this is all a touchy subject for me.
I think God is constantly helping us, good and bad people, both. It's up to us see the signs. 4153 comes to mind. The devil is the antagonist, trying to stray us from the path. It's about choice, always about choice; which path will we choose?