Can we pray for our christian friends?
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Peace
The sunnis and shiites (and other Muhammedans group) actually consider Muhammad 'higher' than God.
Although it's 'subtle' and not exactly 'verbose'...Some of the examples are
- In the sirah+hadiths there are many examples of "God" nullified his Judgement and/or act in accordance to Muhammad's wishes. The most infamous story are the 'bargaining for rakaah' process..
- Their comprehension of 'shalawat' as glorifying and adoration (towards Muhammad) and they said that God and His angels also performing 'shalawat' as thus adoration and glorification to Muhammad (which is a twist from Quran verse)
Nevertheless I never judge the sunnis and shiites or any other Muhammedans group as 'forbidden from heaven' or 'shall be cursed to hell'.. And I'm applying the same view to those who worship other (dead) people such as Jesus.
What they're doing is practically the same... dead people worshiping
I refrain myself from doing such gross act.. yet I didn't label them as 'kuffar' or 'cursed to hell' either.. as it's not my place and/or authority to judge...
To me
It's not a problem when somebody worship a stone, as long as he's not enforcing that belief to me OR
Throwing that stone at me!! Now that's a big problem..!!Salam / Peace
Neither am I condemning, I am just saying what God says. Similarly, I can be punished for whatever wrong doings I have done. Worshiping in another deity besides God from what I understand does not mean eternal punishment, it just means that there will be punishment. However severe it is up to God as God knows us each individually.
I am also aware of what you are talking about regarding Shia and Sunni. While it is true, they still do not place Muhammad above God. They make a clear distinction that the two are different. Whether God changed the required 5000 rakahs (I think that's the number) because Muhammad pleaded or not, that still doesn't mean that God obeyed Muhammad.
I agree with the stone thing. The only reason I said anything is because some people here are promulgating that polytheists are safe from God's punishment, when the Qur'an says the opposite.
I dont see any quranic references in your words. So no you are talking from your mind, you are not reciting the quran. Have you even read the Quran?
Many muslims have imposed and forced people to accept Islam as well during all their islamic crusades.
Well if you cant be a muslim while believing in the trinity, than you cant be a muslim and believe in the hadiths as well. You seem to limit the belief in God according to your own understanding.
Peace
Pickthall Translation
They surely disbelieve who say Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (72) They surely disbelieve who say Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. (73) Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (75)How much simpler can it get? You are saying that what I said is full of conjecture, why do you not look at yourself? If you believe a certain way then God commands you to bring proof. If you have no proof then it is best to remain silent and ask questions for my reasoning.
Believing in Hadiths (I don't) is not equal to deifying Christ. It's a corrupted form of Islam the religion, no doubt, but it is nowhere close to the polytheism that Trinitarians practice.
As far as Muslims forcing others to be Muslim, that is against the Quran. God states that "There is no compulsion in religion." Those people will be punished for their sins as well. However, we are speaking only about polytheists here (Trinitarians), so lets try not to derail the topic. I only brought that part up to show you that Christians claim to be Monotheists but they go to native peoples and force them into their Polytheistic ways.
Peace
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I am also aware of what you are talking about regarding Shia and Sunni. While it is true, they still do not place Muhammad above God. They make a clear distinction that the two are different. Whether God changed the required 5000 rakahs (I think that's the number) because Muhammad pleaded or not, that still doesn't mean that God obeyed Muhammad.
You make no remarks regarding the "God and His angels does shalawat to Mohammad" in accordance to Mohammedans belief.
And according to the Mohammedans, the reasons why people need to do 'shalawat' towards Mohammad is because Mohammad shall save them during the judgement day.How's that not being considered as putting Muhammad as equal or above God??
Take a quick survey, attend the friday prayer at your local Mohammedan's mosque.. and during the sermon count how many times 'Muhammad' / 'Rasullullah' get mentioned and how many times 'God' / 'Allah' get mentioned..
I've done such survey few years ago.. the average stat was 14.. 1 Allah 4 Muhammad..Take a look at the caligraphy in Muhammedans mosque... there's Allah on the right and Muhammad on the left...
I agree with the stone thing. The only reason I said anything is because some people here are promulgating that polytheists are safe from God's punishment, when the Qur'an says the opposite.
Well to be truly objective, the Quran does mentioned another form of 'polytheist' which is 'putting the imam/priest as their Rabb/Lord', which fit perfectly well with common Muhammedans too!!
As thus.. IF.. praying for trinitarians is forbidden because they're 'polytheist' so does praying for muhammedans.. since muhammedans can also be considered as 'polytheist'..
We need to apply the same standard right?On day to day.. practical level.. this is very difficult... as we need to inquire people belief before praying for them.. 'do you believe in trinity? or do you believe that Muhammad shall save you on judgement day? or do you believe in ijma ulema can abrogate the Quran? or do you believe in hadith??" because if you said yes to any of those.. Sorry.. I can't pray for you... tough luck mate...
As such.. I would stick to YES.. we can pray for any of our friends.. regardless of their belief.. (christians, muhammedans whatever) And it doesn't matter anyway.. since it's up to God to decide whether to grant our prayer or not...
As far as Muslims forcing others to be Muslim, that is against the Quran. God states that "There is no compulsion in religion." Those people will be punished for their sins as well. However, we are speaking only about polytheists here (Trinitarians), so lets try not to derail the topic. I only brought that part up to show you that Christians claim to be Monotheists but they go to native peoples and force them into their Polytheistic ways.
Trinity get its root from 'three faces' of God found within Hinduism and also Ancient Egyptians..
It was a hellenistic Jews named Philo from Alexandria who came up with this 'three in one' hypothesis.. looks like he tried to combine Ancient Egyptians triune main deities (Osiris, Isis and Horus) with Jewish monotheism..
And it was in Egypt the 'messianic Jews' got their first stronghold and flourish... as thus the Egyptian influence are being carried forward throughout generations..
Having said that.. not all christians belief in 'trinity' and even for those who do.. the exact details of 'trinity' are widely varied.
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar
You make no remarks regarding the "God and His angels does shalawat to Mohammad" in accordance to Mohammedans belief.
And according to the Mohammedans, the reasons why people need to do 'shalawat' towards Mohammad is because Mohammad shall save them during the judgement day.How's that not being considered as putting Muhammad as equal or above God??
Take a quick survey, attend the friday prayer at your local Mohammedan's mosque.. and during the sermon count how many times 'Muhammad' / 'Rasullullah' get mentioned and how many times 'God' / 'Allah' get mentioned..
I've done such survey few years ago.. the average stat was 14.. 1 Allah 4 Muhammad..Take a look at the caligraphy in Muhammedans mosque... there's Allah on the right and Muhammad on the left...
I take the shalawat on a more extreme level on how Muslims great peace to the past prophets. They are dead, but they still offer words of peace. Now they send their supplications and include Muhammad and Ahl Al-Bayt for whatever reasons are ridiculous, but you cannot equate them with what Christians do. It is not close. While they may put their efforts and prayers through/to Muhammad, they do not blatantly worship him.
It's simple. Ask Muslims if Muhammad is God. They say no. Ask Christians if Jesus is God. They say yes. If Christians pray to Jesus and ask for his intercession, but do not worship Jesus as God, they are not polytheists like the majority of their Trinitarian brothers.
As far as the mosques are concern, are you referring to the Shahadah?
Well to be truly objective, the Quran does mentioned another form of 'polytheist' which is 'putting the imam/priest as their Rabb/Lord', which fit perfectly well with common Muhammedans too!!
As thus.. IF.. praying for trinitarians is forbidden because they're 'polytheist' so does praying for muhammedans.. since muhammedans can also be considered as 'polytheist'..
We need to apply the same standard right?On day to day.. practical level.. this is very difficult... as we need to inquire people belief before praying for them.. 'do you believe in trinity? or do you believe that Muhammad shall save you on judgement day? or do you believe in ijma ulema can abrogate the Quran? or do you believe in hadith??" because if you said yes to any of those.. Sorry.. I can't pray for you... tough luck mate...
As such.. I would stick to YES.. we can pray for any of our friends.. regardless of their belief.. (christians, muhammedans whatever) And it doesn't matter anyway.. since it's up to God to decide whether to grant our prayer or not...
I am not arguing with anything you are saying. Qur'an also talks about people that take money as a god. I am simply commenting on polytheist Christians because the Qur'an addresses them. I am conveying the message that God gave us, not my own. Why should we start making exceptions and try and change God's Word (not you, but anyone that tries to do so)?
Trinity get its root from 'three faces' of God found within Hinduism and also Ancient Egyptians..
It was a hellenistic Jews named Philo from Alexandria who came up with this 'three in one' hypothesis.. looks like he tried to combine Ancient Egyptians triune main deities (Osiris, Isis and Horus) with Jewish monotheism..
And it was in Egypt the 'messianic Jews' got their first stronghold and flourish... as thus the Egyptian influence are being carried forward throughout generations..
Having said that.. not all christians belief in 'trinity' and even for those who do.. the exact details of 'trinity' are widely varied.
Salam / Peace
I shouldve been more clear when talking about Trinitarians, thank you brother. When I refer to Trinitarian Christians, I am talking of those that claim Jesus is God, equal with the Father. Jehovahs Witness are a good example that believe in a similar Trinity but do not associate Jesus as God.
In conclusion, there really is no argument with this issue. It isn't my opinion, it is what God tells us. If people wish to take some parts of the Quran and reject others because they don't like what God says, that's their prerogative and will be judged accordingly, as well I. If I were to put my own emotions into the issue, I would have said a similar statement as Maha. I use my evidence from Qur'an, not my subjective emotions. Then again, God knows us better than we know ourselves.
Peace
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Ask Muslims if Muhammad is God. They say no. Ask Christians if Jesus is God. They say yes.
Equally important Ask Muslims if Jesus is prophet. They say yes. Ask Christians if Muhammad is prophet. They say no.
In Islam, kufr (disbelief) is almost as great as a sin as shirk. Therefore monoteist christians will also go to hell. Believing in Allah is only possible by believing in ALL his prophets, books ... etc. Plz read the ayats below
291 When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"
568 Say, "O people of the scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.
As for sunnis, their taking hadith as a source of religion is based on their interpretition of Quran. They believe that obeying messenger is obeying his words (hadith). But they carefully eliminate fake hadith by checking its contradiction with Quran. Although I don't agree with them, still what they are doing is not shirk. Mentioning Mohammad's name in mosques isn't shirk either, since mentioning his name is not worshipping to him.
peace
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Equally important Ask Muslims if Jesus is prophet. They say yes. Ask Christians if Muhammad is prophet. They say no.
In Islam, kufr (disbelief) is almost as great as a sin as shirk. Therefore monoteist christians will also go to hell. Believing in Allah is only possible by believing in ALL his prophets, books ... etc. Plz read the ayats below
291 When they are told, "You shall believe in these revelations of GOD," they say, "We believe only in what was sent down to us." Thus, they disbelieve in subsequent revelations, even if it is the truth from their Lord, and even though it confirms what they have! Say, "Why then did you kill GOD's prophets, if you were believers?"
568 Say, "O people of the scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.
As for sunnis, their taking hadith as a source of religion is based on their interpretition of Quran. They believe that obeying messenger is obeying his words (hadith). But they carefully eliminate fake hadith by checking its contradiction with Quran. Although I don't agree with them, still what they are doing is not shirk. Mentioning Mohammad's name in mosques isn't shirk either, since mentioning his name is not worshipping to him.
peace
That is not completely true as Muslims believe Muhammad has divine authority. The Sunnah gave Muhammad divine authority. Authority that in the Koran is reserved to God only. This authority can then be transfered to the Musim ruler. That is one of the reasons why the Sunnah came. The Koran gave Muhamad limited authority and gave absolute authority to God only.
Plus most Christians will tell you Jesus is the son of God but would not exactly know how to explain that.
Finally Sunnis and Shias do not use the Koran to check out fake hadith. One of the goals of the Sunnah is to do away with the Koran. That is the whole point.
10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."
Here the pagans asked Muhamamd to alter the Koran or to come with another Koran and Muhammad told them that he does not have such authority. So the sunnah came to finish the job that Muhamad refused to do.
Authority of the Sunnah
- Definition of the Sunnah, and the History of the Sunnah, and the Efforts of the Scholars in verifying the Sunnah.
For the above issues, please see the following article The Sunnah.
One thing that must be mentioned here is that many Muslims get confused between the general term of Sunnah, which includes all the sayings and actions of the Prophet, and between the term Sunnah when used in fiqh issues where it means "recommended". For example, since the Prophet used to pray 2 rak'at before fajr prayer, we say that it is Sunnah for us to pray these 2 rak'at, which means that it is recommended to pray these 2 rak'at and not obligatory.
In this article we are discussing the Sunnah in the general sense, and not in the fiqh sense. We are talking about the Sunnah as a source of Islamic legislation. Therefore, when we say it is obligatory to follow the Sunnah, we are talking about the Prophets commands for us in the Sunnah and not about the recommended actions such as the 2 rak'at before fajr for example. Please make sure that you understand the difference here.
- What does the Authority of the Sunnah mean?
In Arabic, the wording is Hojjiyat As-Sunnah. This basically means that the Sunnah can be used as evidence in Shariah, and that Allah (swt) has ordered us to follow the Sunnah and avoid anything it has prohibited for us. In other words, this means that it is obligatory on every Muslim to believe in what the Sunnah tells us, and to act according to the Sunnah in all aspects of our life and ensure that we do not commit any actions that contradict the Sunnah.
- The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an
The Sunnah can be divided into three parts
Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.
Explanatory Sunnah. This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.
Sunnah that brings new legislation. This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.
http//www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php
Of course there is another criteria that they don't mention is the Sunnah can abrogate the Koranic verses. Apostasy law (Ridda) is a very good example of that.
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That is not completely true as Muslims believe Muhammad has divine authority. The Sunnah gave Muhammad divine authority. Authority that in the Koran is reserved to God only. This authority can then be transfered to the Musim ruler. That is one of the reasons why the Sunnah came. The Koran gave Muhamad limited authority and gave absolute authority to God only.
Indeed ..
That's why the dogma of 'Ulema and/or Caliph as the successor/heirs of prophet-hood' which allegedly Muhammad said so in the hadith.. get a constant airtime during sermons...God -> authority transfer to -> Muhammad -> authority transfer to -> Ulema or Ruler
It's all about 'power to control the masses' and turn them into 'obedient servant' to serve their (often political) agenda...
That's why they will get instantly 'pissed off' when somebody tried to challenge the authority of the Sunna and/or Hadiths as it will disrupt the 'status quo'.. (Political Motivation)
Finally Sunnis and Shias do not use the Koran to check out fake hadith. One of the goals of the Sunnah is to do away with the Koran. That is the whole point.
Agree.. and gain an absolute power + authority to influence the masses..
Salam / Peace
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Indeed ..
That's why the dogma of 'Ulema and/or Caliph as the successor/heirs of prophet-hood' which allegedly Muhammad said so in the hadith.. get a constant airtime during sermons...God -> authority transfer to -> Muhammad -> authority transfer to -> Ulema or Ruler
It's all about 'power to control the masses' and turn them into 'obedient servant' to serve their (often political) agenda...
That's why they will get instantly 'pissed off' when somebody tried to challenge the authority of the Sunna and/or Hadiths as it will disrupt the 'status quo'.. (Political Motivation)
Agree.. and gain an absolute power + authority to influence the masses..
Salam / Peace
I agree. The story about Abu Bakr going to war because of Zakat is a proof of that. Zakat is a religious obligation for the believers. Who gave Abu Bakr this kind of authority. If you read the Koran it tells us
Here you are, called upon to spend in the Path of Allah, and some of you are being stingy, while whoever is stingy is only ungenerous towards himself. It is Allah who is rich and you who are the poor.?
Here the Koran is saying the oppossite. So how can Abu Bakr force people to pay Zakat?
So now the ruler can impose Zakat and take it for himself and his cronies as they tried to do in Sudan. Notice also in that story of Abu Bakr, the other companions disagreed with him. But for the wrong reasons. In all, these stroies gives the ruler absolute authority where he can impose Zakat or not. Where he can conquer nations and impose Jizya or not. Where he has life and death powers like the Pharoah.
Jizya is another example. While the Kortan talked about Jizya when the believers were returning to Mecca which they were forced out of. In the Sunnah Jizya is to be paid by all non Muslims. Why should people be required to pay Jizya for? Jizya in the Koran came upon the enterance of mecca. Jizya could easily be compensation for the loss of property and businesses suffered by the believers when they were forced into exile as verse 9.13 tells us.
However lets remember that we are talking about some aspects of the Sunnah. The Sunnah comprises various factions each with their own agenda. Even Koranist got into the game and spread hadiths that encourages the recitation and following of the Koran. Hadiths that tells us Muhamamd said do not write anything from me except the Koran is one such example.
All and all, the Sects gave Muhamamd divine authority that is reserved in the Koran for God. Such as believing or disbelieving and punishing of sins and transgression against God. The Koran reserved that for God and the day of Judgement. Only when you transgress against another person's right did the Koran gave humans authority to hold other humans account.
- manslaughter
- Premediated murder
3.stealing
4.slandering
5.adultery
These are the 5 areas the Koran gave Muhamad authority to intervene. All of them affect another person's right. Either property, life or reputation or spouse.
The Sunnah is very different in that regard.
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Peace Bigmo, all,
Plus most Christians will tell you Jesus is the son of God but would not exactly know how to explain that.
I gave the Qur'anic verse which tells you exactly what happens to people that worship disbelieve and worship Jesus as God. How can we dance around the verse and start thinking of ways out of what God says? What God says is clear, what further explanation is needed?
The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close) is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians. Lets focus on Christians. If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.
Peace
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The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close)
You're 'right' about that one.. is not even close.. what Muslim (read sunnis/shiites/or other Mohammedans group) did it's actually much worse!!..
is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians. Lets focus on Christians. If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.
It's relevant, if we're to judge about 'not to pray' for those who have a 'wrong belief/view about God'... we have to apply the same standard to any other groups, regardless the name...
And islam is not a religion or sect or group or social identity.. islam is an 'attitude/character'.. it fell within the same domain as 'honest', 'kind', 'forgiving', 'humble' etc..
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
You're 'right' about that one.. is not even close.. what Muslim (read sunnis/shiites/or other Mohammedans group) did it's actually much worse!!..
I guess we have to agree to disagree, and only God knows best.
It's relevant, if we're to judge about 'not to pray' for those who have a 'wrong belief/view about God'... we have to apply the same standard to any other groups, regardless the name...
And islam is not a religion or sect or group or social identity.. islam is an 'attitude/character'.. it fell within the same domain as 'honest', 'kind', 'forgiving', 'humble' etc..
Salam / Peace
I gave scriptural reference to Christians of what God says. You haven't addressed the answer that God gives, which is why I said lets stay on topic. God goes at length talking about how displeased he is with people that say Jesus is Allah. He specifically targets those people. Are you saying that God is wrong when he talks about these polytheists?
Peace
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In Islam, kufr (disbelief) is almost as great as a sin as shirk. Therefore monoteist christians will also go to hell. Believing in Allah is only possible by believing in ALL his prophets, books ... etc. Plz read the ayats below
Yes indeed the Paradise is reserved only for you. Everyone else would go the Hell. rotfl
Stop playing God. And stop misusing the Quran in your anti-christian mission.
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Peace Bigmo, all,
I gave the Qur'anic verse which tells you exactly what happens to people that worship disbelieve and worship Jesus as God. How can we dance around the verse and start thinking of ways out of what God says? What God says is clear, what further explanation is needed?
The things about Muslims doing shirk or doing something on par with Christians (which IMO is not even close) is irrelevant as the subject of this talk is Polytheistic Christians. Lets focus on Christians. If we are to talk about shirk in Islam, lets do that in another topic dedicated to that and not derail this one.
Peace
The verse only tells us to stop saying Jesus is divine. It does not say whether sunnah is better than that.
I dont make any difference between Sectarian muslims and Christians who believe Jesus is divine. The both share the same though, they just use different words.
There are hundreds of hadith making Muhammad God, although the word God is not used because Quran clearly says that is forbidden. So what muslims do is that they exploit the 'loopholes'. They say Muhammad is NOOR-ALLAH, That he was the first thing ever created, That he is the only one who can change Gods mind, that God gave him unlimited power and authority, that Muhammad is the best person of all creations, That Muhammad would make intercession, that it was Muhammad who decided many aspects of Islam (like prayer) etc. etc. BUT HE IS STILL NOT GOD
So attribute All the qualities of God to Muhammad but just remember to not CALL him God
Indeed, I would even say that the Christian who believe in trinity are somehow more righteous than the muslims, since the Christians are honest and use the right words, while the muslims are hypocrites who say one thing but believe in a compleately different thing. And Munafeqeen are worse than the Kaffirs in the quran.
The truth is, that Every person who believes in monotheism and do righteous acts would go to paradise, whether he is christian, Jew or Muslim or atheist or a secular person without any religion.
Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 569 -
Stop playing God.
Playing God is only the case if one dares to decide the afterlife of individuals. However the salvation criteria (rules of the game) is clear in Quran since otherwise God wouldn't hold us responsible for anything.
The truth is, that Every person who believes in monotheism and do righteous acts would go to paradise, whether he is christian, Jew or Muslim or atheist or a secular person without any religion.
Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 569What is this? a kind of customizing the salvation criteria Where does in 569 write anything about monoteism ? Using your way I may easily claim righteous Mekkan idolworshippers will get salvation since they also believed a single God which they called Allah/Al-Ilah (probably based on Abraham)
6511 a messenger who recites to you GOD's revelations, clearly, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will admit him into gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. GOD will generously reward him.
To understand 569 read other verses. There are thousands more verses in Quran beside 569, 262, 4913. Anyway, you may encourage your athe/mono/polytheist christian friends to refuse Quran/Mohammad by showing them 569. I wish you all a happy afterlife without fear and regret.
Final words Light-hearted bull licks the knife of the butcher. (turkish saying)
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Playing God is only the case if one dares to decide the afterlife of individuals. However the salvation criteria (rules of the game) is clear in Quran since otherwise God wouldn't hold us responsible for anything.
What is this? a ii of customizing the salvation criteria D Where does in 569 write anything about monoteism ? Using your way I may easily claim righteous Mekkan idolworshippers will get salvation since they also believed a single God which they called Allah/Al-Ilah
6511 a messenger who recites to you GOD's revelations, clearly, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will admit him into gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. GOD will generously reward him.
To understand 569 read other verses. There are thousands more verses in Quran beside 569, 262, 4913. Anyway, you may encourage your ate/mono/polyteist christian friends to refuse Quran/Mohammad by showing them 262. I wish you all a happy afterlife without fear and regret.
Final words Light-hearted bull licks the knife of the butcher. (turkish saying) D
Your post does not make any sense. Brother, quran 569 tells us that Christians and jews can enter paradise.
Peace
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Peace Maha,
Again, have you read what I posted at all? I am not fluent in Arabic and do not try to appear so. I am just a learner of the Qur'an. With that aside, don't take offense to this, but practice what you preach. You translate the word Muslim into English. Although it is a rough translation, it is understandable. Now tell me where God says the word Christian. Also if there is this word "Christian", is he talking about all Christians, or those that conform to Islam and Tawhid? Trinitarian Christians are neither, according to God Himself.
What hamzamutlu says is true, it seems like you are "customizing the salvation criteria" to fit your own opinions/needs. If we go by your criteria, as hamazamutlu states, even the Meccans idolators would not have to pay for their disbelief. The idolators in Mecca believes in Allah, but practiced similar beliefs as the trinitarian polythiest Christians of today. And it is quite possible that their idolatoray wasn't even as bad as what the Christians do.
Believe me, if it were up to my human emotions, I would have the same opinion as you. However, God knows better than us, and while it doesn't hurt to question, we must accept his decision if we believe that the Qur'an is his authorship. Please do not twist God's Words, God speaks of horrible consequences for those that did for the past scriptures.
Peace
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Peace Maha,
Again, have you read what I posted at all? I am not fluent in Arabic and do not try to appear so. I am just a learner of the Qur'an. With that aside, don't take offense to this, but practice what you preach. You translate the word Muslim into English. Although it is a rough translation, it is understandable. Now tell me where God says the word Christian. Also if there is this word "Christian", is he talking about all Christians, or those that conform to Islam and Tawhid? Trinitarian Christians are neither, according to God Himself.
What hamzamutlu says is true, it seems like you are "customizing the salvation criteria" to fit your own opinions/needs. If we go by your criteria, as hamazamutlu states, even the Meccans idolators would not have to pay for their disbelief. The idolators in Mecca believes in Allah, but practiced similar beliefs as the trinitarian polythiest Christians of today. And it is quite possible that their idolatoray wasn't even as bad as what the Christians do.
Believe me, if it were up to my human emotions, I would have the same opinion as you. However, God knows better than us, and while it doesn't hurt to question, we must accept his decision if we believe that the Qur'an is his authorship. Please do not twist God's Words, God speaks of horrible consequences for those that did for the past scriptures.
Peace
Dear sister. I feel that you judge too much and that you consider yourself to know what God thinks.
But look just as what you wrote
Also if there is this word "Christian", is he talking about all Christians, or those that conform to Islam and Tawhid?This applies for all people, not only for christians but also for muslims. Every person, whether he is Christian or Muslim should follow monothoism in order to get salvation. Thats a basic fact. I am not trying to defend any MUSHRIK, whether he calls himself for Christian or Muslim. It just seems to me, that you try to judge ALL christians and in the same time you try to DEFEND the polytheism in Islam.
What I am trying to say is, that there are monotheist Christians AND polytheist muslims (and vice versa) and that of course monotheist Christians would enter paradise.
The word 'christian' a follower of Christ is a later invention (by name). Quran use the word Nasaara (Helpers, or can refer to Nazerath a palestinian city) of the followers of Christ. But in any case, note that vers 569 says'' WHOEVER believes in God and the last day.... '' so in other words, God does not really care about your membership of any sect or religion, what is important is that you believe in god, the last day and do righteous deeds.
I dont really know anything about the people from Mekka, before the islamic crusades destroyed their country and culture. Very few accounts do we possess about them beside for the thousands of hadith sources written only for the sake of insulting the mekkans. But my best guess is, that there exsisted both muslims and kaafirs among the mekkans like in any other place.
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'' WHOEVER believes in God and the last day.... ''
I think the problem lies in understanding the phrase above which is used for believers, not for faithful people who follow their ancestors' religion. And believers are those who believe in the whole book ( i.e. muslims ). 5822 may be a proper verse to better understand the above phrase
5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.
It can be easily seen that people who believe in GOD and the Last Day are very faithful to Mohammad. Following verses and hundreds more support this point
565 If the people of the scripture only would have believed and been righteous, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.
Consequently, the salvation criteria are be a believer (believe in the book) and be righteous (follow the book). The criteria are the same for everybody, i.e. do not change for non-muslims.
To better understand 262 plz read it together with 3199
262 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
3199 Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.
262 nnellezne amenu vellezne hadu ven nesara ves sabine min amene billahi vel yevmil ahri ve amile salihan fe leh?m ecruh?m nde rabbihim ve la havf?n aleyhim ve la h?m yahzenun
3199 Ve inne min ehlil kitabi le mey y?'min? billahi ve ma ?nzile ileyk?m ve ma ?nzile ileyhim haiyne lillahi la yeterune bi ayatillahi semenen kalla ?laike leh?m ecruh?m nde rabbihim innellahe serul hsab
peace
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Peace Maha
Dear sister. I feel that you judge too much and that you consider yourself to know what God thinks.
I am not a sister
But look just as what you wrote
This applies for all people, not only for christians but also for muslims. Every person, whether he is Christian or Muslim should follow monothoism in order to get salvation. Thats a basic fact. I am not trying to defend any MUSHRIK, whether he calls himself for Christian or Muslim. It just seems to me, that you try to judge ALL christians and in the same time you try to DEFEND the polytheism in Islam.What I am trying to say is, that there are monotheist Christians AND polytheist muslims (and vice versa) and that of course monotheist Christians would enter paradise.
The word 'christian' a follower of Christ is a later invention (by name). Quran use the word Nasaara (Helpers, or can refer to Nazerath a palestinian city) of the followers of Christ. But in any case, note that vers 569 says'' WHOEVER believes in God and the last day.... '' so in other words, God does not really care about your membership of any sect or religion, what is important is that you believe in god, the last day and do righteous deeds.
I dont really know anything about the people from Mekka, before the islamic crusades destroyed their country and culture. Very few accounts do we possess about them beside for the thousands of hadith sources written only for the sake of insulting the mekkans. But my best guess is, that there exsisted both muslims and kaafirs among the mekkans like in any other place.
Again, either you did not understand what I wrote or you didn't bother to read what I said. I said "Trinitarian polytheist Christians". Not all Christians, just those that commit shirk. When I say that there are Christians that will be punished severely, I am talking about polytheist ones and only them. I made it clear when I said, "Those that worship Christ as God." Whethere there are polytheist Muslims is besides the point. I gave you Quranic evidence, I am not saying what I am saying based on my own accord. Now, whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, that is what God says. Not me. Not a man-made aHadith. But God's Hadith.
Peace
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I think the problem lies in understanding the phrase above which is used for believers, not for faithful people who follow their ancestors' religion. And believers are those who believe in the whole book ( i.e. muslims ). 5822 may be a proper verse to better understand the above phrase
5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.
It can be easily seen that people who believe in GOD and the Last Day are very faithful to Mohammad. Following verses and hundreds more support this point
565 If the people of the scripture only would have believed and been righteous, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.
Consequently, the salvation criteria are be a believer (believe in the book) and be righteous (follow the book). The criteria are the same for everybody, i.e. do not change for non-muslims.
No that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You are forgetting the thousands to people who never had any access to any book. How can God judge people by a book to which they had absolutely no access too or have no knowledge of???
Monotheism is the fundamental teaching in ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES. It is this teaching that is base for all salvation not any scripture.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this."
Basically every person whether they be an Atheist, Jew , Christian, Hindu (from ANY religion or sect) has the knowledge of an Almighty God. For example who do you think a person will call on when he or she is in life and death situation....
3131 Have you not seen the ships sailing the sea, carrying God's provisions, to show you some of His signs? In that are signs for every one who is patient, thankful.
3132 When waves surround them like mountains, they call on God, sincerely devoting the system to Him. But when He saves them to the shore, some of them revert. None discard Our signs except those who are betrayers, ingrates.
Everyone believes in God and everyone has knowledge of him. The scripture is only meant for those who have knowledge of them or who have access to them. Those who don't will be expected to follow the basics....
The basics....
- We worship God and God alone
- That we do no associate beings with him
- That we do righteous deeds
It is by these basics that people who had no scripture or any book will be judge by.
Ask yourself this question. When Abraham was guided did he have any scripture??? Read Sura 674- 79 . Or did he use logic and reasoning and sincerely seek God and God guided him?That is how guidance works. Sincerity is the key to guidance and Abraham had it in spades. And because he was sincere God guided to the Straight Path. What is the Straight Path????
6161 Say, "My Lord has guided me to a Straight Path. An upright system, the creed of Abraham the monotheist; he was not from those who set up partners."
351 "God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him, this is a Straight Path."
3660 "Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy?"
3661 "That you should serve Me? That is a straight path."Prays, rituals and following of scripture is only binding upon those who have access to scripture. However these things are not the basics of salvation. The basics of salvation is that we worship/serve/give thanks to God and GOD ALONE and that we do not associate beings with him. That is the sum of all of the scriptures. It is a message and teaching that ANYONE can easily be guided to since EVERYONE has the knowledge of an Almighty God. Abraham was able to do it. And he did it during a time when people use to believe that the world was flat and that the mountains used to support the sky. In this day in age of Science what excuse does any man have for not being aware of God?
Some people may ask what is to stop a person from not reading the Quran to do those 'other things(like rituals and regulations etc)' in the first place? The answer to that question is simple. A true monotheist will never do that. It binding upon a servant of God to follow the scripture when he has the means to it. Or else how can he call himself a servant of God if he rejects what God has sent???
However like I said before it the basics of Monotheism which is the Straight path and the doorway to salvation. It is not the scripture.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this."
Peace,
Kevin
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Peace Maha
I am not a sister
Again, either you did not understand what I wrote or you didn't bother to read what I said. I said "Trinitarian polytheist Christians". Not all Christians, just those that commit shirk. When I say that there are Christians that will be punished severely, I am talking about polytheist ones and only them. I made it clear when I said, "Those that worship Christ as God." Whethere there are polytheist Muslims is besides the point. I gave you Quranic evidence, I am not saying what I am saying based on my own accord. Now, whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, that is what God says. Not me. Not a man-made aHadith. But God's Hadith.
Peace
Ok than brother We basically agree and were talking about the same thing. Yes christians who strongly believe and uphold the trinity are committing shirk just as muslims who strongly believe and uphold their wicked hadith are committing shirk. thats very obvious from the quranic verses you showed. But ofcourse i would not judge individually except in extreme cases like hitler, bush, bashar assad etc.
Peace