My PERSONAL conclusions about salaat (contact prayer)
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I can't see where did you refute these arguments. However they're more logical than anything you've said now. How can you ask proof from Quran when all it matters is the translation of the Quran and logic. It all has to do with how it's translated. And Aidid Safar's translation makes much more sense to me.
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I can't see where did you refute these arguments. However they're more logical than anything you've said now. How can you ask proof from Quran when all it matters is the translation of the Quran and logic. It all has to do with how it's translated. And Aidid Safar's translation makes much more sense to me.
Ok. Very interesting response. Maybe I should just post my proofs and then maybe you can give me a satisfying response
I have heard this argument before and I am sorry to say that this is a failed argument. By using simple context anyone with a little common sense can see that Salat is a PHYSICAL RITUAL prayer. You cannot use the word Salat to mean commitments since the context doesn't fit.
2238 Preserve the contact prayers, and the middle contact prayer, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
If salat meant commitments then why would anyone worry about doing it in cases where they are preoccupied. Wouldn't they do it some other time??? confused Also did you notice the phrase "state of worry".
What about Solomon and his horses....
3831 When, during dusk, well trained horses were displayed before him
3832 He said, "I enjoyed the good of materials more than I enjoyed remembering my Lord, until it became totally dark!"
3833 "Send them back." He then rubbed their legs and necks.In the case above it is my view that Solomon missed the middle pray. If Salat meant commitments than why couldn't Solomon do it some other time. Why is he so obsessed about the fact that it became totally dark and he forgot to 'remember' or 'give commemoration ' to God . Also shouldn't his uneasiness about missing 'remembrance' or 'commemoration of God' during a specific time of the day imply that commitments is not what he was talking about.
What about this verse....
4102 If you are with them and hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; let a group who has not yet contacted come and contact with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The ingrates hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you keep from placing down your weapons. Be wary. God has prepared for the ingrates a humiliating retribution.
How can salat here mean commitments in the above verse. Doesn't this verse imply Salat is a physical ritual prayer that has to done? Why would any solider guard someone during war time to do a simple thing like commitments??? Doesn't this show that Salat is something more than commitments?
The above verse when when read and thought through carefully should be sufficient proof that Salat does not mean commitment. Salat is a physical ritual prayer. The history of the people of the Book should also be a clear proof that Salat is a physical ritual that has be in existence for centuries.
2278 Strive in the cause of God properly. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'those who have peacefully surrendered' from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.
I have argued this case on the forum before and so far no one has been able to give me a straight answer to refute the proofs which I gave from the Quran. So if you are serious about debating the issue then I welcome it.
Peace,
Kevin
I can't see how anyone in there right mind can logically imply that prays aren't ritual from the above verses. Salat by Quranic context can never mean commitments!!! This is a flawed translation. If you want to translate words in any sort of manner without using proper context then what is the point in you following the Quran in the first place????
Also, where is the historical evidence to support your claim that prays were never ritual when there are plies and plies of evidence from the previous scriptures that show that Salat is a RITUAL PRAY and NOT commitments. Show me the proof. Show to me through Quranic context and history.
Peace,
Kevin
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That's why I sent you that link before. I'm not sure where but it explains that on one of the salat articles. I mean about the 2229 verse.He represented that verse different and I saw no contradiction. How do I know which translation is right? This is where logic comes in. Search for it if you want because I'm not capable now, but maybe I will search a little if I have time. I cannot say I win this argument yet, but I do remember Aidid explaining it and I'm gonna believe it, even If I can't prove it to anyone else yet.
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There is also this interesting text on Salaat
http//www.godprovenas1.com/khutbas/20090605.pdf
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AND NOW
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DPyJco2bic&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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God tells us in Sura 2945 the purpose of salat, which is to help us abstain from the obscene and detestable, and in Sura 2 45, tells us to find strength in prayers. Now, if you think you need to make salat 5 times, then fine. If you think it is 3 times, fine. When we get into these kinds of debates, aren't we missing the point which God has made clear in Sura 2945 that remembrance of God is far greater still.
If you are not a good person doing good deeds, what difference does it make if you do salat 5 times, 3 times, once a week....? God doesn't say that those who do salat 5 times have nothing to fear nor regret and will be rewarded vs those who say salat only 3 times or not at all. Per Sura 2 62 "surely those who believe, and those wo are Jews, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve..."
Why are we so bent out of shape, focusing on numbers, rituals...... ? brickwall
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OK @justamuslim, read there
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603263.0
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This...is the worst piece of proof I've seen in my entire life.
Hilarious as always I see
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Peace All,
A few questions.
How does one observe the timings at the poles or close to them?
How does one face Mecca from most places on earth when it is, in fact a physical impossibility since the earth is not flat?
Imraan
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You don't. Islam has no such thing as praying.
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Thanks Kaiokenred.
This was aimed at those who accept these timings and directions.
Imraan
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Dua isn't praying either.
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Hmm... but does that mean everyone prays? lol
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I do not kneel toward Mecca and perform any ritualistic 'contact' prayers - in my case, contact with God and Angels has been made and continues to be made on a different level (visions/dreams/inspirations) and this ritual (along with ALL the others, like the head scarf for modesty, the pseudo fasting, Qur'anic recitals in Arabic, etc.) is rejected as a leftover of a bygone age when such rituals may have had a need/purpose in a primitive society, but now only seem to serve to keep the 'leaders' (sic) of Islam in power (sorta like the pope with the catholic rituals, etc.).
I've never been to a Mosque - see no need to, as what they seem to have to offer does not to me seem to be of any real value to my spiritual development at this point in my life.
All I need is the Qur'an and my contact with God/Angels - not any rituals. However, it would be nice if God had made it available in english without my having to go thru the 'translation' process, as each translation (and it's attached commentary) seems to have it's own unique 'version' of what was intended by the Angel passing it on the Messenger to transcribe (From God, to the Angel, to the Messsenger, to the translater, and finally to me - it seems things are 'lost' in this process). 'Our' understanding of ancient arabic seems so contentious that none of the translations seem to be 'complete'. So, I'm having to read ALL the translations I can get my greedy little hands on in hope of getting as close to what the Angel, God's direct messenger, had tried to 'say' to mankind. I just wish...
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Peace Blackstone
Do you prostrate at all? I mean putting your head down on the ground by praising/Glorifying God.
Peace
Asana"Only those believe in Our Signs who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration, and celebrate the praises of their Lord, nor are they puffed up with pride." (Qur'an 3215)
So, to answer this inquiry, I do not ritually place my head on the ground - I fall mentally 'down' to prostration, humbleness, abasement, etc. whenever I read the Qur'an (and often moved to tears of humility), whenever I dwell on God or God's signs, etc.
I have closed the gate to hell called pride, along with the other six gates (aka 7 sins)... instead, I have pursued the seven gates to heaven (aka 7 virtues)
First, the seven Gates to HELL
Lust or lechery (carnal "luxuria" is usually thought of as excessive thoughts or desires of a sexual nature. In Dante's Purgatorio, the penitent walks within flames to purge himself of lustful/sexual thoughts and feelings. In Dante's "Inferno", unforgiven souls of the sin of lust are blown about in restless hurricane-like winds symbolic of their own lack of self control to their lustful passions in earthly life.
Gluttony derived from the Latin gluttire, meaning to gulp down or swallow, gluttony (Latin, gula) is the over-indulgence and over-consumption of anything to the point of waste. In the Christian religions, it is considered a sin because of the excessive desire for food or its withholding from the needy. Depending on the culture, it can be seen as either a vice or a sign of status. Where food is relatively scarce, being able to eat well might be something to take pride in. But in an area where food is routinely plentiful, it may be considered a sign of self-control to resist the temptation to over-indulge. Medieval church leaders (e.g., Thomas Aquinas) took a more expansive view of gluttony, arguing that it could also include an obsessive anticipation of meals, and the constant eating of delicacies and excessively costly foods. Aquinas went so far as to prepare a list of six ways to commit gluttony, including
? Praepropere - eating too soon.
? Laute - eating too expensively.
? Nimis - eating too much.
? Ardenter - eating too eagerly (burningly).
? Studiose - eating too daintily (keenly).
? Forente - eating wildly (boringly).
Greed (Latin, avaritia), also known as avarice or covetousness, is, like lust and gluttony, a sin of excess. However, greed (as seen by the church) is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that greed was "a sin against God, just as all mortal sins, in as much as man condemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things." In Dante's Purgatory, the penitents were bound and laid face down on the ground for having concentrated too much on earthly thoughts. "Avarice" is more of a blanket term that can describe many other examples of greedy behavior. These include disloyalty, deliberate betrayal, or treason, especially for personal gain, for example through bribery. Scavenging and hoarding of materials or objects, theft and robbery, especially by means of violence, trickery, or manipulation of authority are all actions that may be inspired by greed. Such misdeeds can include simony, where one profits from soliciting goods within the actual confines of a church. As defined outside of Christian writings, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs, especially with respect to material wealth.
Sloth Over time, the "acedia" in Pope Gregory's order has come to be closer in meaning to sloth (Latin, Socordia). The focus came to be on the consequences of acedia rather than the cause, and so, by the 17th century, the exact deadly sin referred to was believed to be the failure to utilize one's talents and gifts. Even in Dante's time there were signs of this change; in his Purgatorio he had portrayed the penance for acedia as running continuously at top speed. The modern view goes further, regarding laziness and indifference as the sin at the heart of the matter. Since these contrasts with a more willful failure to, for example, love God and his works, sloth is often seen as being considerably less serious than the other sins, more a sin of omission than of commission. Acedia (Latin, acedia) (from Greek α is the neglect to take care of something that one should do. It is translated to apathetic listlessness; depression without joy. It is similar to melancholy, although acedia describes the behaviour, while melancholy suggests the emotion producing it. In early Christian thought, the lack of joy was regarded as a willful refusal to enjoy the goodness of God and the world God created; by contrast, apathy was considered a refusal to help others in time of need. When Thomas Aquinas described acedia in his interpretation of the list, he described it as an uneasiness of the mind, being a progenitor for lesser sins such as restlessness and instability. Dante refined this definition further, describing acedia as the failure to love God with all one's heart, all one's mind and all one's soul; to him it was the middle sin, the only one characterised by an absence or insufficiency of love. Some scholars have said that the ultimate form of acedia was despair which leads to suicide.
Wrath (Latin, ira), also known as "rage", may be described as inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger. An wrathful (uncontrolled anger) person may lose his/her objectivity, empathy, prudence or thoughtfulness and may cause harm to others. Wrath, in its purest form, presents with self-destructiveness, violence, and hate that may provoke feuds that can go on for centuries. Wrath may persist long after the person who did another a grievous wrong is dead. Feelings of anger can manifest in different ways, including impatience, revenge, and vigilantism. Wrath is the only sin not necessarily associated with selfishness or self-interest (although one can of course be wrathful for selfish reasons, such as jealousy, closely related to the sin of envy). Dante described vengeance as "love of justice perverted to revenge and spite". In its original form, the sin of anger also encompassed anger pointed internally rather than externally. Thus suicide was deemed as the ultimate, albeit tragic, expression of hatred directed inwardly, a final rejection of God's gifts.
Envy (Latin, invidia) may be characterized by an insatiable desire; differs from greed, however, for two main reasons
? First, greed is largely associated with material goods, whereas envy may apply more generally.
? Second, those who commit the sin of envy resent that another person has something they perceive themselves as lacking, and wish the other person to be deprived of it.
Dante defined this as "a desire to deprive other men of theirs." Envy can be directly related to the Ten Commandments, specifically "Neither shall you desire... anything that belongs to your neighbor". In Dante's Purgatory, the punishment for the envious is to have their eyes sewn shut with wire because they have gained sinful pleasure from seeing others brought low. Aquinas described envy as "sorrow for another's good".
Pride Building the Tower of Babel was, for Dante, an example of pride. In almost every list pride (Latin, superbia), or hubris, is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and the source of the others. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to acknowledge the good work of others, and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God). Dante's definition was "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbour." In Jacob Bidermann's medieval miracle play, Cenodoxus, pride is the deadliest of all the sins and leads directly to the damnation of the titulary famed Parisian doctor. In perhaps the best-known example, the story of Lucifer, pride (his desire to compete with God) was what caused his fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan. In Dante's Divine Comedy, the penitents were forced to walk with stone slabs bearing down on their backs to induce feelings of humility.Vainglory (Latin, vanagloria) is unjustified boasting. Pope Gregory viewed it as a form of pride, so he folded vainglory into pride for his listing of sin. The Latin term gloria roughly means boasting, although its English cognate - glory - has come to have an exclusively positive meaning; historically, vain roughly meant futile, but by the 14th century had come to have the strong narcissistic undertones, of irrelevant accuracy, that it retains today. As a result of these semantic changes, vainglory has become a rarely used word in itself, and is now commonly interpreted as referring to vanity (in its modern narcissistic sense).Now, the seven Gates to HEAVEN
Chastity Abstaining from sexual conduct according to one's state in life; the practice of courtly love and romantic friendship. Cleanliness through cultivated good health and hygiene, and maintained by refraining from intoxicants (see Qur?an). To be honest with oneself, one's family, one's friends, and to all of humanity. Embracing of moral wholesomeness and achieving purity of thought-through education and betterment. The ability to refrain from being distracted and influenced by hostility, temptation or corruption.
Temperance Restraint, temperance, justice. Constant mindfulness of others and one's surroundings; practicing self-control, abstention, moderation, zero-sum and deferred gratification. Prudence to judge between actions with regard to appropriate actions at a given time. Proper moderation between self-interest, versus public-interest, and against the rights and needs of others.
Charity Generosity, charity, self-sacrifice; the term should not be confused with the more restricted modern use of the word charity to mean benevolent giving. In Christian theology, charity -- or love (ag?p?) -- is the greatest of the three theological virtues. Love, in the sense of an unlimited loving kindness towards all others, is held to be the ultimate perfection of the human spirit, because it is said to both glorify and reflect the nature of God. Such love is self-sacrificial. Confusion can arise from the multiple meanings of the English word "love". The love that is "caritas" is distinguished by its origin ? being divinely infused into the soul ? and by its residing in the will rather than emotions, regardless of what emotions it stirs up. This love is necessary for salvation, and with it no one can be lost.
Diligence A zealous and careful nature in one's actions and work; decisive work ethic, steadfastness in belief, fortitude, and the capability of not giving up. Budgeting one's time; monitoring one's own activities to guard against laziness. Upholding one's convictions at all times, especially when no one else is watching (integrity). (The vice "acedia" is more commonly known as "sloth".)
Patience Forbearance and endurance through moderation. Resolving conflicts and injustice peacefully, as opposed to resorting to violence. Accepting the grace to forgive; to show mercy to sinners. Creating a sense of peaceful stability and community rather than suffering, hostility, and antagonism.
Kindness Charity, compassion and friendship for its own sake. Empathy and trust without prejudice or resentment. Unselfish love and voluntary kindness without bias or spite. Having positive outlooks and cheerful demeanor; to inspire kindness in others.
Humility Modest behavior, selflessness, and the giving of respect. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it is thinking of yourself less. It is a spirit of self-examination; a hermeneutic of suspicion toward yourself and charity toward people you disagree with. The courage of the heart necessary to undertake tasks which are difficult, tedious or unglamorous, and to graciously accept the sacrifices involved. Reverence for those who have wisdom and those who selflessly teach in love. Giving credit where credit is due; not unfairly glorifying one's own self. Being faithful to promises, no matter how big or small they may be. Refraining from despair and the ability to confront fear and uncertainty, or intimidation.
?and here we are, we have taken the right path!
?and thus we?ve left closed or have closed the gates to hell?
All that is left is to acknowledge there?s only the one God
(no sons, no mother of the son, no holy ghost or spirits, no sacred saints/pope/prophets, etc.)
NO PARTNERS TO GOD!
Seek the FINAL TESTAMENT ? the Qur?an- The Angriest Angel
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Peace Blackstone
Thank you for your informative reply.
With all due respect these is my only humble suggestion to you if you have killed your ego and pride and reached to that level of humility then try to put your forehead down on the ground Praising/Glorify Him. See if you can do it and see what you will feel?Soon your feelings will tell you if you really have killed your ego.
Asana