For those who thought psychedelics was a good thing.
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Remember that when you have a democracy, it`s the peoples rule. And when you add togehter the interests of all people, the commonalities stand out, and that is general human nature. Oddities are filtered out. Therefore it becomes freedom of religion, atleast to the maximal extent of a generic law.
And that generic law again, comes from the same democracy, which represent general human nature.
And all law should come from God, which again is spiritfree human nature. Seems to workIn these times one would have to accept gay and others things etc, because of freedom of religion. But as long as everything works in peace, that should be ok. They are the ones who loose on that in the end anyway. If society gets more aware of true monotheism, which is probable in this time of the information-society, maybe these spirits would be gradually conquered. Society moves forward, and monotheism represents the ultimate truth, so it would seem as this is the ultimate scenario for society aswell.
I prefer democracy/freedom of religion, over angry sectarian mullah-pharaoes, teaching demented hadithism.
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Okay...I read a couple of paragraphs but skipped the rest, because, well it seemed like a whle bunch of mumbo-jumbo.
Anyways, you say Adam was expelled from "Heaven". Can you post the full verse which says this?
Because, as far as I know, no human can visit heaven/hell/whatever until the final day occurs.
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As long as you respect my belief in more esoteric interpretations of the Quran, I will respect your belief in the "final day".
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As long as you respect my belief in more esoteric interpretations of the Quran, I will respect your belief in the "final day".
Ok whatever you say. But my point stands, the Quran doesn't mention Adam being expelled from "Heaven". However the Torah does.
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Honestly, I don`t see how you can make a difference there.
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Honestly, I don`t see how you can make a difference there.
But there is a difference because the Torah explicitly mentions him being expelled from Heaven while the Quran doesn't. Hence there is a difference.
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There is a difference, an important difference.
The Qur'an never says Adam was expelled from heaven. When Adam ate the fruit Allah forgave him, clothed him and sent him to Earth, but Adam was sent to Earth as a punishment. it was always in Allah's plan for Adam to be sent to Earth and proof of this is in the Qur'an where Allah annouces to the angels that He is creating a viceroy to be placed on Earth.
I agree that an esoteric understanding of the tree and fruit is an important one, but speculating on what the fruit was itself is uneccessary. The Qur'an calls the tree the tree of DESIRE. Therefore, the fruit on the tree was DESIRE. You wouldn't call a tree the tree of apples and speculate what fruit was growing on it. The moral of the myth is refraining from your lower desires.
The Bible tells a similar tale but calls the tree the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Therefore the fruit of the tree is KNOWLEDGE. Similar stories but two completely different concepts being explained. Here you are dealing with an entity that is preventing you from knowledge. You can decide whether an entity that is trying to keep you ignorant is friend or foe.
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Salam,
The moral of the story of Adam is to obey God's commandments or be exiled from heaven. He warned them to obey Him and not follow the devil and they disobeyed and were cast out.
Its a very simple message to understand.
If you want to be redeemed and enter Heaven after this life, obey God and uphold and apply His commandments and do not follow the Devil.
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Salam,
The moral of the story of Adam is to obey God's commandments or be exiled from heaven. He warned them to obey Him and not follow the devil and they disobeyed and were cast out.
Its a very simple message to understand.
If you want to be redeemed and enter Heaven after this life, obey God and uphold and apply His commandments and do not follow the Devil.
You ignored my last post. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say Adam was cast out of heaven. He was sent to Earth because that was the plan the entire time.
"And when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said Surely I know that which ye know not. "
This verse refutes the notion that Allah expelled Adam from paradise as a punishment for eating the fruit. Being sent to Earth was part of the plan, along with Adam eating the fruit. Allah forgave Adam for eating the fruit.
"Then Adam received from his Lord Words. His Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the most Merciful. "
You cannot be both pardoned and punished, so as this verse clearly states Allah pardoned Adam, it is a misguidance to believe Adam was cast out of paradise as a punishment.
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Salam,
I think you need to re-read the story. The Devil caused their eviction from Paradise by getting them to follow him and his ideas instead of Gods commandment.
Allah knew Adam would eat from the tree, it was part of the plan. He was forgiven for doing so and then sent to Earth. It wasn't as an expulsion but part of the plan from the beginning as evidenced in the ayat I gave previously. I'm not into hadith, but there is one that even speaks of Moses confronting Adam on the matter and Adam responded with saying that he did something that was already preordained.
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Salam,
You cant make excuses for disobeying God by saying it was "pre-ordained". Read 20117-123 Adam was warned by God not to follow the Devil but they disobeyed Him and were evicted because of it. God told them as long as they obeyed Him they could stay in Paradise forever. To say Adam and God had some sort of plan for Adam to disobey to prove a point would make God a liar and would be implying Gd advocates sin and disobeying Him.
I could care less what any hadith says on the matter. The story and lesson is clear in the Quran. See also 235-37 and 727
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Salam,
You cant make excuses for disobeying God by saying it was "pre-ordained". Read 20117-123 Adam was warned by God not to follow the Devil but they disobeyed Him and were evicted because of it. God told them as long as they obeyed Him they could stay in Paradise forever. To say Adam and God had some sort of plan for Adam to disobey to prove a point would make God a liar and would be implying Gd advocates sin and disobeying Him.
I could care less what any hadith says on the matter. The story and lesson is clear in the Quran. See also 235-37 and 727
You don't have a correct understanding of the Qur'an. All is preordained and Allah never said Adam will dwell in paradise forever. Allah specifically said he was placing man on Earth before he created Adam. I provided proof in the form of verses and you reject it so with that "to you your belief and to myself mine". giveup
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Another note on psychedelics. A lot of their users have pantheistic mindsets, aka "The perciever is the same as the percieved", "Everything is in the mind". Etc, it could be that this originates with the popularisation of hinduism with LSD in the 60`s. Now there are typical "dualist" statements in hinduism aswell, but still a lot of people have favoured these pantheistic statements.
Abrahamic religion is about the "dualist" mindset. And that is that two things exist, God and his creation.
And this clearly seen in statements where God is invisible, transcendent, and the creator of everything else.
Pantheistic thought have also influenced the Quran. However wherever one finds pantheistic statements in translation, one can find a more fitting "dualist" translation. -
http//www.gnomereserve.co.uk/card%20players.jpg
More interesting facts Gnomes are usually associated with psychedelic mushrooms. Gnomes are similar to "santa claus". Gnome means "earthdweller". Gnomes are said to be miniature people, living "underground". The red prominent cheeks are probably related to satanic aspects. In the quran it is stated "do not swell your cheeks in pride".
From what I have seen of psychedelic art, it seems that a reduction of percieved size is part of the experience. That is probably related to the egoloss. The egoloss is probably the heavenly/nirvanic aspect. And satans role in it, I am not sure. But it seems to be there too.
Egoloss may very well be a regression to states beyond birth. If one does this cleanly by meditation, one meditates out spirits, and comes very close to Ruh..
And that might be related to "lower heaven".
(While egoaware state might be related to "God", the adult mind, and higher heaven).The psychedelic variant, combines this with other aspects of the drug, and this is probably why satan still is present, and spirits are present. Maybe simply because it IS a drug. So it seems a bit paradoxical.
https//www.dmt-nexus.me/Files/Images/lrsSPEC11-152JonesKatherine-Harlequin.jpg
From DMT art I can also see certain typical features related to egodeath. Because of it`s features I would say it is a satanic spirit that kills itself, symbolized by a clown, without eyes. He thinks of himself as a clown, for doing this, but it is also angelic.
In the quran the drug is given by shaytan. Doing the drug then is the spirit of shaytan. But shaytan "kills" himself, and what is left is angelic. Looking at DMT art though, and movies like Yellow Submarine, there is a lot of oddities. So it is very much like spirit-nonsense (waswas). However with closeness to the divine, the spirits are conquered to a greal deal.
Alot of users also seem to have a similar opinon, even those who have popularised the use of psyhcedelics.
Ambivalent statements can be seen from them
John Lennon "I destroyed my ego".
Terence McKenna also made an ambivalent statement about his drug use causing his braincancer.So satan must be present, because it`s not a pure and problem-free state. There is regret involved. And as you can see, even by prominent users.
Peace!
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Do you realise
a.) You have zero experience to draw from
b.) All you are doing is theorisingThis is like talking about the engineering of cars. Except that you live in the desert and have ridden camels all your life. But somehow you're an expert on the intricacies of engine mechanics based on your camel riding experience...
Psychedelics are not a direct avenue to satan. They are a medium for transmission just like TV, music, etc. People make satanic films and songs all the time. That does not mean these things are prohibited for the believers. Likewise your theory that psychedelics are the tree of knowledge has very little basis in reality although many too have hypothesised the same thing.
Of course the intoxicants debate rages. And to add to that, many of these things may or may not intoxicate. Some even sharpen the faculties.
But the quranic commandments are clear. If you wish to forbid good, that's up to you. But those who forbid good are the fuel of hellfire.A simple question I have, do you believe in the last day? How can you pronounce takfir on others if you yourself have no certitude about THE judgement?
peace
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You are babbling on as usual IAMOP. I will ignore you.
An interesting statement from a psychedelics user
"Imagine you are a rat. You live in the sewer and your only business in life is to find some trash to eat. Then one day you eat a magic piece of trash and suddenly you are in the human world, you see all the things on our human scale, our life on the surface, our knowledge, our art, our everything. But then the next day, you are back to being a rat, but you have this memory, and now you know, I am a rat, all I do is rat around, eat trash, and spread disease".
Maybe that is why he feels like a clown too, because he knows the truth of himself. Satan is a creep.
But ofcourse he is a disbeliever, so he doesn`t change his ways, and become of religious morality.
Instead ofcourse satan is in the statement of IAMOP turning religion upside down, claiming that psycehdelics are for believers, and that I am bound for hellfire for forbidding something that God has not. Creepy. (as usual, from satan). -
Simple facts
a.) You're afraid to answer really simple questions Do you believe in the last day or not?
b.) You're ignoring 443 and projecting an entire reality about which you have no idea babbling indeed
c.) No quranic support in any of these posts, pure projection
d.) Defying the command of ALLAH and declaring takfir on someone you don't even knowThankfully the truth is self-evident and plain for all to see. No I am not saying you are bound for hellfire but I am saying
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Do cast into hell every ungrateful, rebellious one,
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Forbidder of good, exceeder of limits, doubterDo you like to place yourself in this category? That is your perogative. ALLAH has clearly defined limits on the usage of his bounties. Being centred in the surest of truths, there is no need to ignore anyone. Clearly you are on shaky ground.
Peace
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I`ve met many kinds of fundamentalists in my life. Ofcourse the hadithists. But also science-fundamentalists (Richard Dawkins-style). And now ofcourse IAMOP, the psychedelics-fundamentalist.
They are all creepy, and their logic mad.
I am NOT ungrateful. I am very happy to be a muslim. But we live in different worlds IAMOP, and YOU have NO idea who I AM.
You claim that these drugs have given you a lot of knowledge, but to me you seem completely clueless.
You argue as exceeding limits, are forbidding drugs, when it is indeed doing drugs.I am so happy that I live in a democracy, where such fundamentalist-thinking is not the superordinate factor.
Peace.
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Psychedelics-sects do exist.
From http//www.maps.org/news-letters/v12n1/12117stu.html
engine, but the long URL does not work if used directly. An unofficial site is http//www.csp.org/nicholas/A58.html. This Manhattan group asserts that anybody who is not a member of their church is doomed to be endlessly reincarnated in horrific hell realms. The members believe that their leader Alan Birnbaum is Jesus, and that they are the reincarnation of His disciples. Birnbaum formerly ran a Native American Church branch in New York, and had legal problems due to peyote. The public is invited to the Temple to participate in guided communion with DPT. The session occurs in a dirty room, sometimes with the gurgling sound of the toilet perpetually flushing in the background. The communicant must listen to a tape recording of excerpts from religious texts with a background soundtrack of sentimental music. Temple members advocate healthy lifestyles, and abstain from meat for moral and health reasons. The church gives guidance on nutritional healing of addictions, depression, and disease. Communion schedule and further information are found on the church web site. They published The Testimony to the Psychedelic (1981, now out-of-print).
Some interesting reading from a session here http//csp.org/nicholas/A58.html
I get the impression that it is very much like the messy enviroments of hippies, and a couch where they sit stoned. And ofcourse a lot of babble with associations to religion.
I wonder if IAMOPs place of communication is this? (humorous exaggaration).
http//img126.imageshack.us/img126/526/houstonmessapartmentslogy3.jpg
http//img234.imageshack.us/img234/240/houstonmessapartmentsloig3.jpgI knew this hippie once. His computer looked a bit like this lol. He would forget his childrens birthdays, or barely make it, arriving stoned or on pills. The same thing with the national day, funerals, everything. It`s like cheech and chong. He did understand once, on LSD, that the fly in his house was himself. So he treated this fly with great respect ever since. So if you visited him, you would have to live with that the fly would buzz around, and was prohibited to kill.