Convert - Shia inclined but very curious
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Every hadith is probably not all baloney but I'd argue that it's besides the point. I guess the question is, what is their purpose? Or do they have a place in Islam? Or are they relevant? Even if every hadith was hypothetically verifiable these questions will still stand. Authenticity is an issue of course but it's not the only one in my opinion.
Looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts around the forum )
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President Ahmadenijad versus Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei brain damage by Misleding Hadith accusing President Ahmadenijad of Witchcraft.
I don't know if Ahmadenijad is doing witchcraft, or experiment with nuclear power or high-energy physics weapon. (high-energy physics is "witchcraft" to brain damage 'Shia).
Ahmadinejad, may worship Ali, that is wrong.
But also see what he does right - Guarding his God Give Life(quran 429);
- Build a Nuclear Power Plant.
- Support High-Technology Industries
- Defense of Local Economy, Sustainability, Independence.
Sure people can look at his bad side on Speech and Economic Freedom.
Its hard to do Anarcho-Capitalist when Parasites simply rips and loots everything with their muscle Nato and IMF.
Many Mullahs thinks Technologies are Witchcraft(conjure from misleading hadiths). Without technology, that goes against guarding god give life.
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This is pretty late but I wanna reply as a shia inclined Quranist myself.
Basically first off welcome D and how I see things as a shia inclined Quranist is that
-Considering the religion was new and considering the fact that God had promised to keep this book and religion perfect, it would only make sense for God to send people who would keep according to the Quran.
-During that era you had the Caliphs coming in such as Abu Bakr and Omar and especially Yazid who wanted to change rules that were allowed or disallowed in the Quran. Thus the belief is that you have the imams who opposed change.
-the imams i've realized reference the Quran and not hadiths like what Omar tried to do at times (probably a bunch being fabricated) thus they were great Quranists themselves.
-While there are hadiths from both Muhammad and the imams in traditional Shia Islam, the only hadiths I might look for are ones that back up some claims in the Quran and reject all those that contradict or add new rules to the Quran.Thus Shia Inclined Quranism
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but one other thing i'd like to add is that Shiaism by itself is quite Quranist as it takes the Quran in hand first and hadiths in second, thus hadiths that contradict the Quran are not accepted unlike the Sunnis who say otherwise. Thus why you see Shias pray 3 times a day as the Quran states unlike Sunnis who go 5 times for example.
Though the only problem with shiaism that keeps it from actually being pure Quranist is that it accepts far too many traditions not mentioned in the book as law, thus they like to ban music or chess sometimes / though as mentioned earlier in the topic, not all of them are unified in such views and many reject a lot of those anyways such as the one about music and chess (thus why both are legal and allowed in Iran)
Thus Shias in general are our closest brothers to Quranists in the end
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Shias and sunnis alike both claim they take Quran first then Hadith. Whilst books and records mention that they are not 100% authentic actions respond differently. Hadith sources are not as largely expelled in shiasm compared to sunnism. there exists a whole fiqh of their school of thought. with more reading you'd notice similarities between shias and sunnis.
Every shia is required to follow a marja which has their specific rulings to be followed. Who were you thinking of taking as your marja?
although shiasm seems more intriguing it's not free from the errors. if you can stomach and believe the infallibility of the imams well i guess you're a step closer to shiasm
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Shias and sunnis alike both claim they take Quran first then Hadith. Whilst books and records mention that they are not 100% authentic actions respond differently. Hadith sources are not as largely expelled in shiasm compared to sunnism. there exists a whole fiqh of their school of thought. with more reading you'd notice similarities between shias and sunnis.
Every shia is required to follow a marja which has their specific rulings to be followed. Who were you thinking of taking as your marja?
although shiasm seems more intriguing it's not free from the errors. if you can stomach and believe the infallibility of the imams well i guess you're a step closer to shiasm
Well as I said, i'm SHIA inclined, so there is quite a bit of difference.
For one I don't follow a marja, but I do look at some opinions from various to see the thoughts on some thing and see if traditions are mixed in or not.
I also don't take the Imams are "infalliable" as they are human though I guess I can take them as "infalliable as a human gets" meaning they knew Gods laws better than most, which has proven considering how what they ruled made a more sense than any of the Caliphates like Omar or Yazid.
Regardless there is quite a lot of difference between Shia and Sunnis really as i've studied both and as a result really HATE sunnism for that as they abrogate the Quran which means Hadith>Quran for the Sunnis.
As well unlike a traditional Shia I don't accept "new rules" from traditions that were never mentioned in the Quran like the hijab or beards or any of that stuff.
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Peace. Welcome brother. Your own deep understanding of the Quran is as close as you personally can come to. Others can only make sugestions. General guideline is that God is good. Now if someone says to you to do something that is bad or that it is shown to have bad results it can't be from God.
The following verse from the Quran explains itChapter 7 728 And if they commit lewdness, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know?
Thanks
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true, there's a difference.
lots of rules are based on opinion that's the beauty of scholarship
infallible as a human gets.. well that's an interesting concept but prob not the right wording
not many people praise Yazid nor did all Imams "rule" in the same sense of power as caliphate.. also lots of corruption took place so that messes things up.
Many Sunni's are against abrogation of the Quran. There are people that did abrogate Quran with hadith however there are many hard line against it. so i wouldnt say it's sunnism. but rather a branch of people/scholars therein.
there is alot of similarities and differences with shia/sunni
interesting views.
Welcome to the forum
peace
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true, there's a difference.
lots of rules are based on opinion that's the beauty of scholarship
infallible as a human gets.. well that's an interesting concept but prob not the right wording
not many people praise Yazid nor did all Imams "rule" in the same sense of power as caliphate.. also lots of corruption took place so that messes things up.
Many Sunni's are against abrogation of the Quran. There are people that did abrogate Quran with hadith however there are many hard line against it. so i wouldnt say it's sunnism. but rather a branch of people/scholars therein.
there is alot of similarities and differences with shia/sunni
interesting views.
Welcome to the forum
peace
Yeah like I don't see how an imam or a prophet can be without sin as they are human and humans are made to sin at least once, thus why they can't be completely infallible but probably as infallible as humans get means that they sin less then others. Though I bet a lot of Shias think of them as without sin /
There are indeed sunnis who are against abrogation, as I remember there being one in Tunisia for example who was against what Omar abrogate and some hadith that supported his claim. But most I have realized most do abrogate, such as abrogate good things like art which is clearly allowed as Solomon was described as an artist and yet a prophet who followed well in the work of God. Shias on the other hand allow these things as the Quran has clearly given an example of it being used.
As a shia-inclined, the Sunni mind set does disturb me a lot as they are so freakin strict on everything O_O
Regardless this is why i'm a shia
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well of course not, shias view the imams/ prophets as infallible i.e. perfect.
many sunnis are against abrogation. maybe you're an unfortunate person who live in an area where most do abrogate.
lots of muslims have artwork. in fact most mosques have beautiful intricate art. Shias have artwork but in noway would they paint the faces of the imams or prophets. nor would either shia or sunni pray in a direction of an art (particularly one with life i.e. an animal) as it would be perceived as a form of idol worship.
every scholar, scholarly opinion or marja3 will have their interpretations. i guess this is how bid3a evolves. while people say they dont do things they justify others in the name of religion.
shias could be perceived as strict too.
just out of curiousity, what sources do you use to gain shia knowledge? and how do you gauge authenticity? or you don't do that?
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As'salamu alaikum and welcome.
I'm an ex-shia myself, but we won't focus on that too much here. I just want to say that one should be weary of ahadith since it is all based upon oral accounts. As you probably know, oral accounts are not accepted as evidence in a court of law as it's weak and tends to be distorted. With that in mind why should oral accounts in ahadith be considered any different? It's just a little something to think about before venturing into this site. )
Congrats on the conversion by the way.
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first of all different shia sects such as zaidia ,nizaria, mustaalids and imamites(12ers) are all commercial sects rather than religious .
secondly. shia (12er) hadiths were written long after the death of prophet MUhammad and imam jaffar . and there is no hadith book written by any of the shia imams themselves.and one get surprised when one knows that 2/3 of the shiites ' books are written just 3 or 400 years ago in safavid era in iran lolz. -
first of all different shia sects such as zaidia ,nizaria, mustaalids and imamites(12ers) are all commercial sects rather than religious .
secondly. shia (12er) hadiths were written long after the death of prophet MUhammad and imam jaffar . and there is no hadith book written by any of the shia imams themselves.and one get surprised when one knows that 2/3 of the shiites ' books are written just 3 or 400 years ago in safavid era in iran lolz.Haven't heard this one about them being written during the Safavid era. Al Kafi which is the Shia Bukhari was written about 300 years after the Prophets death and also contains hadiths of the Imams. Though the major difference is that Al Kafi when first collected was called by its collector as unreliable and that one should look at it and throw away whatever contradicts the Quran.
interesting what do you know about the safavid era, didn't they just promote shiaism? and revive islamic (shia) philosophy?
or you think they just reinvented the wheel?
Personally I as Persian clearly like the Safavid era for Persia came back but as for Shiaism, that is something i'm glad grew as well in opposition to Sunnism. While Shiaism is also traditionally runned, it at least isn't as fundamental as Sunnism O_O The difference in opinions we have now I think we can someone contribute to shiaisms opposition to the regular sunni standards then.
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peace be upon you as well.
About shia's, a few days ago i was blessed with having a talk with a Shia Muslim Lady.
I don?t think she heard of following the Quran alone. To say, i kind of like her because
- she kind of encouraged me to follow the Quran and use my mind/reasoning
- she kind of was sympathetic with the 3 salat a day ?theory?, since shia muslims do accept the tradition that the Prophet combined his 5 salats and thus only did salat at only 3 times per day.
- she was much liberal and kind.
I?ve had talks with sunnis before, but now, i think shia?s might just be a better audience.
Shia forums anyone? -
peace be upon you as well.
About shia's, a few days ago i was blessed with having a talk with a Shia Muslim Lady.
I don?t think she heard of following the Quran alone. To say, i kind of like her because
- she kind of encouraged me to follow the Quran and use my mind/reasoning
- she kind of was sympathetic with the 3 salat a day ?theory?, since shia muslims do accept the tradition that the Prophet combined his 5 salats and thus only did salat at only 3 times per day.
- she was much liberal and kind.
I?ve had talks with sunnis before, but now, i think shia?s might just be a better audience.
Shia forums anyone?Ah nice. Shiachat is a forum where Shias mainly are on. Yeah shias do pray 3 times as we normally agree on. Even thoigh they say that there are 5, they always combine it to 3 and even at mosques when they do it together. But one thing i've learned from shias is that the hadith is not as withstanding as it is with the sunnis in that if you reject a hadith, they won't call you a kaffir ) did you tell her of your
Quran only beliefs? -
Yes i told her, but i don't think she herd about it before.
There might be a need to spread the message around! -
Yes i told her, but i don't think she herd about it before.
There might be a need to spread the message around!Very true. The message does need to spread. Its just how the Protestant religion started against the Catholic beliefs, in this case its us vs the sunnis. This type of protest was what led Europe to the modern ages of freedom, let's hope this can spread similarly and be what brings the middle east to the same era
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An idea would be to just come up to muslims (women night be easier to notice because of their coverings), and just ask a kind of "interview question"
are you sunni or shia?
have you ever herd of following the Quran alone?
you should research about it.