G?del incompleteness theorems
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I'll add a quick excerpt of the page to see if that sparks more interest
"If you visit the world?s largest atheist website, Infidels, on the home page you will find the following statement
?Naturalism is the hypothesis that the natural world is a closed system, which means that nothing that is not part of the natural world affects it.?
If you know G?del?s theorem, you know all systems rely on something outside the system. So according to G?del?s Incompleteness theorem, the folks at Infidels cannot be correct. Because the universe is a system, it has to have an outside cause.
Therefore Atheism violates the laws mathematics.
The Incompleteness of the universe isn?t proof that God exists. But? it IS proof that in order to construct a consistent model of the universe, belief in God is not just 100% logical? it?s necessary."But this is only one implication of the theorems!
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Peace,
Wow this stuff is very interesting but it is hard for me to thoroughly digest with my feeble mind. I read parts of the website but it is hard to understand. I will give a read through God Willing. Thanks for this, maybe I can use this when trying to take a mathematical approach to God with other people.
Peace
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Shalom,
Nice. There is a BBC documentary, similar things. I really liked how mathematics can disprove mathematics. Its funny how I am frustrated by the certainty of scientific truths when all truth are resting on a cradle of the unknowable.
Link to the documentary
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hALyh40xgPEACE
---------------- Student of Allah -
simplest explanation I could find, well worth a read, MANY implications across all forum topics....
http//www.cosmicfingerprints.com/incompleteness/
Brilliant post. Godel was a genius and this Incompleteness Theorem is a brilliant reasonable and logical way of proving Allah/God like Abraham used his reasoning skills to come to the conclusion of a self conscious being.
Since the topic involves Godel I highly recommend reading Godels Self Reference Theorem and how Allah/God is aware of this theorem and the Quran passes this with flying colours in all occurences. Here's a good written article about it
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm
PEACE
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The combination of man and book leaves no room for inconsistency.
I'm pretty damn sure the quran bypasses Godel Incompleteness altogether too
One of the key conclusions of the incompleteness theorems is that they make a significant statement regarding the limitations of logic - that is that there will be truths that cannot be demonstrated using any system based on logical reasoning. This obviously has many implications, one is about how one must approach the Quran as a complete Scripture; there MUST be transendental processes (to logic) required to fully comprehend its contents. This almost seems self-evident, or intuitive (in itself a mode of reasoning outside logic), but having a mathematical proof that this MUST be the case is powerful evidence. It cuts at the roots of analytical philosophy (that which forms the basis of current scientific thinking and is pushed as the gold standard with which all phenomena must be explained) as the favored method of reducing philosophical questions (or any question really) to foundations found in logic - this is flawed as demonstrated by indisputable mathematical proofs by Godel.
Peace.
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Brilliant post. Godel was a genius and this Incompleteness Theorem is a brilliant reasonable and logical way of proving Allah/God like Abraham used his reasoning skills to come to the conclusion of a self conscious being.
Since the topic involves Godel I highly recommend reading Godels Self Reference Theorem and how Allah/God is aware of this theorem and the Quran passes this with flying colours in all occurences. Here's a good written article about it
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm
PEACE
Salaam Prince,
Thank-you for the excellent link!
I am hoping others will give this topic the time it deserves to help themselves recognise greater truths....
Peace
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What I presently understand is that the quran explains itself by means of tautology (self-referential truths). For example a tautology is 75% of human beings on Earth make up 3 quarters of its population. These are powerful in that they are unquestionable truths (2123 - The truth cannot be questioned for its acts but all others may be questioned).
The application of set theory (think Venn diagrams) leads to extraction of information from tautology imagine, for example, two shades of green which are exactly the same but the slightest bit different - the behaviours of both shades of green are perfectly alike but differ by precisely 1 bit. By applying set theory to the similarities and differences of these shades of green, we can decode and reconstruct the entire spectrum of light! We begin with Shade A, Shade B, then we split these entities and treat them as sets, creating a new set {A, B, NOT A, NOT B}. NOT B overlaps with A and NOT A overlaps with B. We apply this repeated method of contradictory similarity and soon we have all the properties of all the frequencies of the spectrum.
Likewise we can apply this principle to the tautology presented about the Earth population (e.g. 3/4 is a fraction, 75% is a percentage therefore they are the same AND not the same). All Quran analysis is actually the study of tautology. The quran is almost definitely quantum cryptographically secured by means of a binary symmetric communications channel. Further research into this is required; the book "Binary Symmetric Quran" points to this study. This security is unbreakable in this context as it requires one to open their heart to the book thereby negating all malevolence.
It is noted that green is the middle of the light spectrum for humans - the inhabitants of paradise are adorned with green for a very good reason.
As a result of the application of tautology, the entire quran is a complete and self-consistent set of axioms thereby totally negating Godel incompleteness!
This can only happen if all of these axioms are themselves truths and thus the circle of self-reference is completed. In such a context, the word "ayat" in the quran in reference to God signifies a self-consistent complete axiom/truth. So truly, if all man and jinn combined to make a book like the quran, they could never do it
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What I presently understand is that the quran explains itself by means of tautology (self-referential truths). For example a tautology is 75% of human beings on Earth make up 3 quarters of its population. These are powerful in that they are unquestionable truths (2123 - The truth cannot be questioned for its acts but all others may be questioned).
The application of set theory (think Venn diagrams) leads to extraction of information from tautology imagine, for example, two shades of green which are exactly the same but the slightest bit different - the behaviours of both shades of green are perfectly alike but differ by precisely 1 bit. By applying set theory to the similarities and differences of these shades of green, we can decode and reconstruct the entire spectrum of light! We begin with Shade A, Shade B, then we split these entities and treat them as sets, creating a new set {A, B, NOT A, NOT B}. NOT B overlaps with A and NOT A overlaps with B. We apply this repeated method of contradictory similarity and soon we have all the properties of all the frequencies of the spectrum.
Likewise we can apply this principle to the tautology presented about the Earth population (e.g. 3/4 is a fraction, 75% is a percentage therefore they are the same AND not the same). All Quran analysis is actually the study of tautology. The quran is almost definitely quantum cryptographically secured by means of a binary symmetric communications channel. Further research into this is required; the book "Binary Symmetric Quran" points to this study. This security is unbreakable in this context as it requires one to open their heart to the book thereby negating all malevolence.
It is noted that green is the middle of the light spectrum for humans - the inhabitants of paradise are adorned with green for a very good reason.
As a result of the application of tautology, the entire quran is a complete and self-consistent set of axioms thereby totally negating Godel incompleteness!
This can only happen if all of these axioms are themselves truths and thus the circle of self-reference is completed. In such a context, the word "ayat" in the quran in reference to God signifies a self-consistent complete axiom/truth. So truly, if all man and jinn combined to make a book like the quran, they could never do it )
Salaam IAMOP
Could you please demonstrate this line of reasoning to an example, let's take the position of the Quran with regard to consuming pork.
Peace.
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Peace straightway,
This procedure is known as "ontology". Quran Corpus project is a great demonstration and far more comprehensive than I could produce at this time. This can be found here http//corpus.quran.com/ontology.jsp
Personally I came to this via researching the issue of intoxicants. I am not well studied in the case of pork as I simply accept the prohibition. Whereas in the case of intoxicants, you will find many verses that say "thus do we make the signs clear for people who understand/think/reason". Look at the connection between those verses. For example compare the differences between "hasan" (1667) and "amana" and "ithm" and their respective root words, and there are more related words - generally all of those that indicate benefit/harm, growth/retardation, creation/destruction. These words generally have opposites and in looking at how the opposites are self-referenced throughout the book you will understand where I am coming from.
peace