Logical proof of God.
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God is both transcendent and immanent Maverick. That is the divine eternal.
Again you do not understand my argument, and the idea that humans have no logical basis for what they do is very dark. I do not think like that. I doubt very much "everyone" thinks like that. If someone disgregards this logic, it is simply because they lack the capacity to understand that it is the only logical possibility.
And please no more answers, justifying other views. I am not interested in them. I comprehend the argument, and I am not "wrestling" with it, as you stated in another post. It is clear, it is logical, and there is no other logical possibility. Maybe when you mature, you will understand this argument, inshaAllah.
Peace.
Peace,
I do. If you take cause and effect out of it, it no longer bears much resemblance to Aristotle's proposition. Immanence/transcendence creates similar problems. It is a catch-22 argument. If God is immanent, then why does he allow suffering and injustice? If God is transcendent, we are still faced with the question of the origins of matter, and whether or not there are any practical ramifications to a god who is not present in what we call reality. There simply is no good logical solution to the question, and it is still an a priori discussion, which atheists and agnostics will not entertain until you push them on the absurdum of empiricism. Like I said, most people just don't think like the post-Socratic Greeks any more. Maybe it is a good thing, maybe it is a bad thing, I don't know. But people just don't debate ideas in this manner any longer. Since Kant, no one has assumed that pure logic and reason are possible for humans.
If you are looking for arguments for God that have some weight in postmodern cultures, Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling" is good. It is a short read, but it is from the vantage point of a Christian, albeit a very non-traditional one. There is a Muslim philosopher that wrote a work on Nietzsche's "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" and the yes-saying prophet and how that relates to the life of Muhammed. He draws from the hadiths since he is a traditional Muslim, but he does at least show Islam in relationship with the most famous (or notorious) existentialist. I can't remember his name, but if you are interested I'll look around and see if I can find it.
Peace.
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Peace Paradox,
The idea that humans lack the capacity for pure reason and logic is scientifically justified. There are scores of behavioral studies that bear this out. I'm not saying humans are completely irrational, I'm saying the capacity for reasoning without being affected by one's culture, language, first principles, experiences, etc, etc is impossible. Dealing with the ramifications of human behavior is part of what I do for a living. I am a social worker, so I know a little bit about what I'm talking about here.
If you don't like the idea, that's fine. I don't like it, either. But dislike of something does not change the way things are, and your dislike of an idea should not turn into strawman accusations that people who disagree with you simply don't understand your idea, or that they require more maturity. That's just poor form. And insulting. There's really just no cause for personal attacks like that, bro.
If you want to believe that God is both immanent and transcendent, great. I believe such terms are like ants trying to categorize humans according to ant characteristics. Such categorization of God can't be done because we simply lack the capacity.
And if you don't believe what I'm saying about the post-Socratic Greek thinkers, try taking your idea into any decent philosophy or atheism forum. It will not go well, friend. You will either have to accept my friendly advice or decide that you are smarter and more mature than people who have spent years wrestling and debating with every major thinker since the pre-Socratics into modern times. What you choose to think about the people who disagree with you is entirely your choice. All I'm asking you to do is consider another perspective. Like I said, if you plan on doing nothing more than state your ideas to people who already believe in God and who believe like you, go ahead. It will probably be an enjoyable experience for you. But if you plan on taking your thoughts into the marketplace of ideas, be prepared for things to go differently.
Peace,
JoelGod is both transcendent and immanent Maverick. That is the divine eternal.
Again you do not understand my argument, and the idea that humans have no logical basis for what they do is very dark. I do not think like that. I doubt very much "everyone" thinks like that. If someone disgregards this logic, it is simply because they lack the capacity to understand that it is the only logical possibility.
And please no more answers, justifying other views. I am not interested in them. I comprehend the argument, and I am not "wrestling" with it, as you stated in another post. It is clear, it is logical, and there is no other logical possibility. Maybe when you mature, you will understand this argument, inshaAllah.
Peace.
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There is no first principle other than God, Maverick. That is satan speaking his kufr.
Are you another atheist pretending to be a monotheist? It seemed to be all the rage on yahoo for a while. Jews pretending to be muslims, muslims pretending to be jews, atheist pretending to be christians, probably someone pretending to be buddhists aswell. Hmm I did not see buddhists pretending to be anyone else. (!) We simply must know what is in their teachings that prevented this!
Kidding aside, the kant philosophy claimed by "maverick monotheist" is similar to atheism. Claiming no logical coherence, while everyone can observe logical coherence.
You see with logical coherence, you have intelligent design. Without intelligence design there is just incoherence, randomness, white noise.Amazing that this should be so hard to understand. But there you have the illogical disbeliever. Shit comes out of satans eyes and ears when he hears logic, until he has vomited out the next generation of idolaterous religion. And ofcourse covers over holy texts with his feeble writings.
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A first principle is merely a term for any idea that cannot be arrived at from another idea. It is any starting point for talking about an idea. It is a technical term. Nothing more.
I am a monotheist, nothing more. Neither muslim, christian, or jew.
Kant was a Christian. The infamous atheist Friedrick Nietzsche railed against Kant in his essay "The Antichrist". But Kant was certainly no fan of pure reason. He did successfully reconcile empiricism and idealism for a time, and his ideas are still popular in certain postmodern Christian circles. But this does not make him an atheist.
And you clearly have never experienced the logic of the most die-hard atheist. Logic is a human creation that helps us understand our environment, nothing more. God, since he is of an entirely different quality than human nature, is not subject to our feeble rules of logic.
Peace.
There is no first principle other than God, Maverick. That is satan speaking his kufr.
Are you another atheist pretending to be a monotheist? It seemed to be all the rage on yahoo for a while. Jews pretending to be muslims, muslims pretending to be jews, atheist pretending to be christians, probably someone pretending to be buddhists aswell. Hmm I did not see buddhists pretending to be anyone else. (!) We simply must know what is in their teachings that prevented this!
Kidding aside, the kant philosophy claimed by "maverick monotheist" is similar to atheism. Claiming no logical coherence, while everyone can observe logical coherence.
You see with logical coherence, you have intelligent design. Without intelligence design there is just incoherence, randomness, white noise.Amazing that this should be so hard to understand. But there you have the illogical disbeliever. Shit comes out of satans eyes and ears when he hears logic, until he has vomited out the next generation of idolaterous religion. And ofcourse covers over holy texts with his feeble writings.
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Maverick.. )
This first principle you talk about is God. And by rejecting logic, you claim that Gods creation is illogical, and Gods rule itself is illogical.
God is just. People will have only what they have worked for. Those who give their life to God, will have their recompense. Those who desire the life of the world, will have that, at the expense of the next life.
If this is not your first principle, you are not a monotheist.
You are ofcourse severly incoherent, in claiming that atheist logic is superior, and then going on to say that logic is only a creation.
But the truth is eternal, and God IS the truth. So to speak the truth, is to speak the eternal knowledge, and eternal logic.
God is not subject to anything, but everything is subordinate to him.These are rules and logic.
Now as I said, stop posting messages to me about how you find this logic to be non-existant. I find it offensive, and when you grow spiritually to understand this yourself, you will be ashamed of going against this. If you are at all a monotheist. Ofcourse a monotheist would not say what you are saying. This is disbelief on your behalf. Which way you want to go is ofcourse up to you.
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"the superior atheist logic"
Atheism The claim that physical whitenoise came out of nowhere, without need for explanation, created the world. The claim that atheism is belief in nothing, however nothing does not exist according to physicalism.
The belief that mindless random whitenoise, in the form of a random number sequence, IS the universe.
The belief that mindless random whitenoise, not intelligent design, created the species and evolved them, and claiming that we are biological machines. While if we fill a computer with white noise, a universe or humans does ofcourse not appear.
The polytheism that whitenoise created the world, while still praising other forces such as science, medicine etc. The polytheism that one is two-brainhalves rather than one soul.
The inconsistency that there is meaning with whitenoise, and claiming a purpose for life, when it is incoherent randomness.Atheist, So you are meaningless purely physical whitenoise. So now go praise your science, because ofcourse they are superior to their creator.
I guess this is posion enough to make you more mentally ill, depressed and if not kill yourself, live your life in misery.
And justice is done.
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Some of these people cannot stop talking. I experienced this quite recently too.
I discussed with a gay, he started talking about dogs feces, I stopped talking to him, he subscribed to my channel. I took him off the subscriber list. He starts sending me messages. I block him. He is still sending me messages. I block him again. He sends messages again, and I tell him that he is being sick and provocative. The exchange ends with that he claims that I should stop, and says the he blocks me.
This is often what I experience with gay people.
Ofcourse another very provocative aspect of these people are that they call you gay and homophobic, because you don`t like gay.
Heres what happened recently in Norway, to someone who claimed gayness on the behalf of people who stated they didn`t like gay, and therefore was homophobic, which again is gay. That might work on the internet, but in reality this is what happens to stupid idiots like this.
http//www.dagbladet.no/2012/01/02/nyheter/innenriks/homofili/vold/19640606/
Ofcourse it`s best not to be provoked by satans. They start wars at all costs, that leads to their own death. That is satanic strategy in a nutshell.
However I can ofcourse fully understand for instance Irans deathpenalty on gays. They don`t stop until that.
Here Iran is critizised again for executing drugbarons that make money on making people addicted to drugs. http//www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10075302
"the bad iranian priesthood".. lol.. I am so looking forward to visiting Iran when I get the money.
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Lol!!! Ok, ok, don't get all butthurt because I told you that your supposedly ironclad proof for God is about 1,000 years too late. For someone who talks a lot about logic, you show a very poor grasp of it. You have stated multiple arguments known as logical fallacies. Novices to discussions like this have committed them so many times that they have names. You have at least one instance in the discussion committed fallacies like the strawman, the "no true scotsman" and the naturalistic fallacy. If you value logic so much, at least get educated in classical logic and rhetoric before lecturing others, particularly people whose level of experience in these matters is not known to you.
As for whether or not you think I'm a monotheist, I don't care. I know the God in whom I believe, but apparently I am not as skilled as you are at putting him in a box. Best of luck to you.
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If it`s true that you are a social worker, I can only feel sorry for your clients.
I think I`m going to start a forum of my own, as a service to Quran-followers. So anyone who agrees with my posts, can come there, and avoid these lowest-of-wits. And if they try come there, they shall surely be banned. Check my www, in a few weeks or so.
Tired of this trashmoderation.
These satans can sit here with their incoherent logic, and incoherent meaning.
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When you remove "intelligent design" you have incoherent noise left. aka random, or "white noise" it is a logical impossiblity, not only because it is said to be physical and come from nowhere, but because white noise does not create anything. To say that the universe is a random number sequence, and still claim it is logical and coherent, and ofcourse meaningful, is ofcourse incoherent.
ParadoxEternal for 6 timer siden
Svar
@ParadoxEternal
First sentence..."when you remove intelligent design you have incoherent noise left."
No. You have an ordered universe with an unknown origin, to which our brains have adapted. I don't go further when the first sentence in a post is a semantic mess.
EGarrett01 for 5 timer siden
@EGarrett01 You did not understand. Let me restate, when you remove intelligent design, you have incoherent noise left. Not "an ordered universe with unknown origin". Apparently you have picked up some phrases about semantics, and fail to use them correctly. Ofcourse anyone believeing in incoherent noise, is bound to have some problems with intelligence.
ParadoxEternal for 1 sek siden
The superior atheist logic. Have a laugh, maybe he responds more. http//www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=HUoHu2JE3Xs