Its impossible to have a healthy discussion with sectarians!!

[Student_of_Allah]

Peace to you all
The example that we see above, is so typical. I was a Christian and Sunni Islam after 9 years I am, thank God!!!! woke up. My husband called me with exactly the same accusations, he even forbade me to bring our children out of the country of fear.(my homeland is Switzerland) It's sad how dogmas can wipe out the common sense and aggression and homicide and barbarism can be tolerated. It goes so far that one's family must jump over the cliff .. elektro Better the woman described as Apostatin than to lose his face and the family's honor. '(
Often with such extremists is the honor at stake, where Western-educated people do not know this, the honor plays here (Egypt) a huge role. The brainwashing is totally scary, but comprehensible, why There are instilled the beliefs of the children since "hadana" from 3 Years old. What says Rasul = What Allah says this is stored, cemented .... . hypno I have also tried to talk with friends, but until now I have joined only on walls and total rejection. Here is a rejection of the headscarf equal to relapse in the kufr. and there's no way to discuss.In front of Allah, i'm responible for the children education but, in fact, what i can do now? To be quite and see, how they become also brainwashed? Allah may help me and all and give us power.

Shalom,

Feel bad for the kids ( But the Good news is that GOD GUIDES WHOM HE WANTS D So, train them to be nice,compassionate,good. Train them with critical thinking in fields outside of religion, critical thinking is a process that will by itself make your kids question things.

Little story
As a kid , I asked my father why the imam said not to use perfume while we fast. My dad said that it has no direct relation with fasting, the possible reason is not to put on so much perfume that another fasting muslim may be in hardship because of your "perfume attack" on his nose. And he told me that its not a package of ramadan, it is a principle for your everyday life. Dont become a painful entity in your society .

A person in our dinner table was GLORIFYING arabs, another person was refuting him. My mom stepped in and said "If the Arabs are so HOLY and deserve SO much praise , God would have sent all those messengers/prophets somewhere else". rotfl

I believe, that kind of thought provoking and critical thinking that I was exposed to (even from traditionalist parents) had impact on my thinking process. They never ever forced me on anything religious. I love my family, they are traditionalists who are GOD ALONE in their heart. Never have I refuted any of their claims from the Qur'an and had to see them bring up any hadith . If its from God's Book, they never bring up any hadith/scholar/etc all that a common traditionalist sets up beside God. May God reward them. My point is that all hope is not lost, you can atleast teach them to be nice but critical.

@kaiokenred
I do know what you are talking about, but wisdom tells me not to label all of them as stupids. Many don't even get to know the truth because of these hypocrite expert level concealers known as sheikhs/rabbis/priests/mullahs. It is our duty to use wisdom and nice ways of delivering the truth, the true muslim hears God's command and obeys, the hypocrite seeks another Qur'an.

Peace
---------- Student of Allah

[Jafar]

Sunni's hate list in order of priority

1. Ahmadis
2. Shiites
3. Quranites a.k.a the anti hadits..
4. Jews
5. Christians and the West
6. Hindus (If the sunnis happened to be a pakistanis, other than them they're usually not even aware on the existence of hinduism)
7. Gays and Lesbians
8. Atheists

Luckily Taoists, Buddhists, Shintoists, Humanists, Confucianists are (not yet) on their priority list again due to their unawareness.

[Bigmo]

I dont know whether I am right or not, but whenever I speak to a sectarian about the quranist perspective, they always seem to insult me. How are the reactions you guys got?

Now here I am sharing a message I got from a sunni male when he asked me whether quran-aloners or quranist consider headscarf as being fard

Basit What are the quranist view on lashing, cutting off the hands and headscarf?
Maha Headscarf for muslim women is not required, but both males and females should look modest. Lashing is hard to practise, since the requirement for 4 witness is given in Surah Noor. Most Quranist dont interpret cutting off hands as you sunni do.

Basit That really shows that you people are a bunch of kaafiirs who have nothing to do with Islam or Quran. You people even have a problem with the verses regarding lashing and cutting off hands i.e. you are even against Quran. And than you say muslim women should look modest? Is a women in bikini modest? Is a woman showing her breast modest? You guys have no limits because you consider ahadith being meaningless. Therefore you and your quranist fellowers are in reality standing for a christian version of Islam, which is in reality an amputated Islam where everyone is free to interpret Islam according to his own wishes and desires, and that has NO worth in the side of Allah(swt) or the muslims.Maha No we just have a problem with some people like you attach barbaric practices to Islam, like opression, rape, murder, lashing, cutting off hands etc.
Basit You seem to be an islamophob since you call cutting off hands and lashing for being barbaric. The only barbaric thing is to alter Allahs law and think that you would still enter Jannah(paradise). Hell is excately for people who with their small brains think they have more knowledge than Allah(swt) himself.
Now the lashing and cutting off hands punishment is mentioned in the quran hence implemented by muslims for the past 1300 years, so I wonder how a little and submissive sect after 1300 years should discover the true meaning of Quran

Maha Listen, we study the quran and four witness are required in surah al noor for lashing. Do you really think its possible to lash people than? Do you think people would have sex on the streets or what?
Basit It happens that people have sex on streets. Now what you lash them if it happens?
And what if someone himself admit he did it what would you do? You quranist have a problem not only with ahadith but also with the punishments described in the quran which indicates that you people are a kuffar sect, a few hundreds submissive, stupid people who would not trust Allah (sws) law no matter what.
Thats why your few hundred quranist are disappearing compared to the hundreds of millions true muslims who love allah(swt)deen unconditionally.
Regarding what you said that quranist hold another point of view about cutting off hand vers, than IT REALLY shows how kuffar and unislamic you are. Do you want us to reward and hold parties for the theieves?
Maha I think you should leave your urge for judging other people all the time. What are you doing in the free kuffar West, go back to Iran or Saudi Arabia if you are so desperate to lash people.
Basit Please - no muslims want to have anything to do with quranists. I am in the free Kuffar West in order to tell the kuffar Westernes about islam so pagan souls like you dont give a bad picture of the true islam which yes contains lashing, cutting off hands but also contains justice, peace, and a economic/political version which are much better than the western version.
But slaves of west like you consider the west of being a master and thats why you quranist hesitate with saying anything against the West and try to alter allah(swt) law in order to please your Western masters - while you forget that its Allah you should please and not humans.
May Allah guide you and that little quranist sect.

1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

479-80 Say ?Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It?s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished by flogging just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It?s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet?s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That?s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someone?s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw.

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial. There is a rumour about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab the founder or rather the revivalist of Salafism (some call it wahhabism) stoned a women to death. This was the only time in Islamic history that we heard such a thing.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed much aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its was never easy in Islamic history to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken after the clerics lost clout and many aspects of the Sunnah became public. In the past the Sunnah wa sin the hands of a very few, most often clerics and people doing research. The public was only aware of the Koran. Modernity offered the Sunnah a public exposure like never before. That?s very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That?s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that?s very sad.

I found by dealing with the larger issues and over all picture is more effective that dealing with issue by issue. Dealing with issue by issue with Sunnis or Shias does not change the way they think. So when we talk about stealing or adultery, the Sunnis and Shias can now see how these issues must be dealt with with the issue of authority and justice in mind. They still think that sins need to be punished but in the Koran sins are not to be punished by men but crimes against another does. God has authority that humans don't have have. If God gave humans the freedom to believe or disbelieve than humans have absolute freedom as far as faith is concerned and actions are concerned , however this freedom is given as long as it does not infringe on somebody elses right. To say something is haram or not is one thing, to make it a punishable crime is another. Nobody can do worse than disbelieving yet the Koran gave humans that freedom.

Another thing is the concept of sin as understood in the Koran maybe different than how Sunnis or Shias see them. Highlighting what Koran consideres to be grave sin could help a Sunni or Shia prioritize issues. Hijab is not a big deal as far as the Koran is concerned so is drinking alcohol or eating pork. These issues do not reveal anything about a character of a person or his faith like being a miser or a lyer or muderer or a theif or a trecherous person. Some of these are crimes agianst another human others are crimes against ones own self. What is considered a crime against another is wher humans have authority to act other than that humans have no authority.

One of the goals of the Sunnah was to elevate the prophetic authority to divine authority and therby this authority can be transfered to the muslim ruler by default.

Also how the Koran understand faith is different than how a Sunni or Shia does, that is why they throw the kaffir label generoulsy. By highlighting who is considered a believer in the Koran or who is not can help them see better. A believer in the Koran is someone who believes in God and the hereafter. It does nt matter what religious community he belongs to as long as he has faith in God and the herafter. Sunnis and Shias have many criteria needed for faith like the 5 pillars of Islam and the consensus of the Muslims scholars. So rejecting the Qibla for them is kufr however in the Koran the Koran downplays the significance of the Qibla. It tells us the Qibla direction is not a matter of faith or righteousness and that wherever we turn we will find God.

[amuslim]

Peace,

If you were trying to prove something to him, quote from the Qur'an. Your debate with him looks like its just a back and forth battle of "I'm right and you're wrong" between the both of you. Also, from what you posted here, you didn't answer his question when he asked about lashing people who have sex in the public (more than 4 witnesses) or if one admits to it. Lashing is indeed prescribed in the Qur'an for such people, there's no way around it. Avoiding it just places more doubt for him in regards to people that follow the Qur'an alone. Also, why do most Quranists (I'd personally refrain from using that word) see that cutting off the hands is unQuranic? You need to be able to explain these things and not just state them. He's basically doing the same thing.

Peace

[Emil]

Peace,

If you were trying to prove something to him, quote from the Qur'an. Your debate with him looks like its just a back and forth battle of "I'm right and you're wrong" between the both of you. Also, from what you posted here, you didn't answer his question when he asked about lashing people who have sex in the public (more than 4 witnesses) or if one admits to it. Lashing is indeed prescribed in the Qur'an for such people, there's no way around it. Avoiding it just places more doubt for him in regards to people that follow the Qur'an alone. Also, why do most Quranists (I'd personally refrain from using that word) see that cutting off the hands is unQuranic? You need to be able to explain these things and not just state them. He's basically doing the same thing.
Peace

Peace Maha

I second amuslim, always always quote a verse from the Quran. It is the only way to put weight into an argument with the type of individual you are facing. Nothing else works.
And whenever he/she/they point out according to them a "flaw" in the QA movement such as the punishment for thieves (lets face it, we QA are not 100% in agreement) then it is better to surrender with humbleness and say "yes, there is a difference of opinion regarding that matter" If they proclaim your surrender as a victory for them you could always point out the embarrasing fact that within sunni or whatever they belong to there are also differences of opinion, for example some sunnis think it is ok to blow themselves up......

Humility, kindness and absolutely no pie-throwing. Whenever I am discussing with a hard-liner like this guy I am not writing to him, trying to prove him wrong. I think more of the people who are reading what we write, and maybe one of them will think "this QA movement seems interesting, maybe I will check it out"

[Maha]

Shalom,

Thats typical type of response. However, I have personally had discussions with hardcore sunnis/shias who are far better than this person. They do not agree with me, but do not verbally abuse me and start being so judgmental. In most cases, the female sunnis behaved with love and care , and all the hatred I received were always from male sunnis. Its funny how he called you "Christian"..lol. Usually they say that Qur'an alone is a jewish propaganda/conspiracy. Right infront of me in a chat room/forum they tell each other not to visit my blog or any other quranist blog because they are sponsored by JEWS. brickwall

Anyways, I always find it helpful to use diplomacy. Because of their disposition, its hard for them to grasp the concept of FREEDOM and using YOUR OWN brain and following ONLY WHAT YOU CAN UNDERTSAND/VERIFY. So, instead of telling them the number of times I do my Salat in a day, I tell them that I do it as much as I find stated in Qur'an. If he can prove me its 17 times, I will do it !! Then, instead of attacking my interpretation with "name calling", he will come to the topic of "Sunnah and its importance". Which is a common ground for refutation for all God alone muslims.

Peace
------------ Student of Allah

Thanks for your advices. It was really the first time I had a discussion with sunnites, so I really dont have experience in talking with them as you have. And it seems like they just want to listen to you nomatter how good arguments you may have. It seems like its impossible for them to even imagine an islam without hadith because than it would not be islam anymore (as they know it). I've been called kafir 1000 of times by them due to this.

[Maha]

Peace to you all
The example that we see above, is so typical. I was a Christian and Sunni Islam after 9 years I am, thank God!!!! woke up. My husband called me with exactly the same accusations, he even forbade me to bring our children out of the country of fear.(my homeland is Switzerland) It's sad how dogmas can wipe out the common sense and aggression and homicide and barbarism can be tolerated. It goes so far that one's family must jump over the cliff .. elektro Better the woman described as Apostatin than to lose his face and the family's honor. '(
Often with such extremists is the honor at stake, where Western-educated people do not know this, the honor plays here (Egypt) a huge role. The brainwashing is totally scary, but comprehensible, why There are instilled the beliefs of the children since "hadana" from 3 Years old. What says Rasul = What Allah says this is stored, cemented .... . hypno I have also tried to talk with friends, but until now I have joined only on walls and total rejection. Here is a rejection of the headscarf equal to relapse in the kufr. and there's no way to discuss.In front of Allah, i'm responible for the children education but, in fact, what i can do now? To be quite and see, how they become also brainwashed? Allah may help me and all and give us power.

Your story is just same as mine.... I always feel comfort in this verse The Quran 6116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

[Pakistani_Assassin]

The majority of my close friends are Sunni Muslims. I don't think I'd ever be able to discuss the fallacies of ahadith with them or the Quran-Only approach, because I already know what kind of reactions I'll get. )

It is almost impossible.

[Maha]

1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

479-80 Say ?Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It?s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished by flogging just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It?s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet?s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That?s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someone?s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw.

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial. There is a rumour about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab the founder or rather the revivalist of Salafism (some call it wahhabism) stoned a women to death. This was the only time in Islamic history that we heard such a thing.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed much aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its was never easy in Islamic history to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken after the clerics lost clout and many aspects of the Sunnah became public. In the past the Sunnah wa sin the hands of a very few, most often clerics and people doing research. The public was only aware of the Koran. Modernity offered the Sunnah a public exposure like never before. That?s very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That?s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that?s very sad.

I found by dealing with the larger issues and over all picture is more effective that dealing with issue by issue. Dealing with issue by issue with Sunnis or Shias does not change the way they think. So when we talk about stealing or adultery, the Sunnis and Shias can now see how these issues must be dealt with with the issue of authority and justice in mind. They still think that sins need to be punished but in the Koran sins are not to be punished by men but crimes against another does. God has authority that humans don't have have. If God gave humans the freedom to believe or disbelieve than humans have absolute freedom as far as faith is concerned and actions are concerned , however this freedom is given as long as it does not infringe on somebody elses right. To say something is haram or not is one thing, to make it a punishable crime is another. Nobody can do worse than disbelieving yet the Koran gave humans that freedom.

Another thing is the concept of sin as understood in the Koran maybe different than how Sunnis or Shias see them. Highlighting what Koran consideres to be grave sin could help a Sunni or Shia prioritize issues. Hijab is not a big deal as far as the Koran is concerned so is drinking alcohol or eating pork. These issues do not reveal anything about a character of a person or his faith like being a miser or a lyer or muderer or a theif or a trecherous person. Some of these are crimes agianst another human others are crimes against ones own self. What is considered a crime against another is wher humans have authority to act other than that humans have no authority.

One of the goals of the Sunnah was to elevate the prophetic authority to divine authority and therby this authority can be transfered to the muslim ruler by default.

Also how the Koran understand faith is different than how a Sunni or Shia does, that is why they throw the kaffir label generoulsy. By highlighting who is considered a believer in the Koran or who is not can help them see better. A believer in the Koran is someone who believes in God and the hereafter. It does nt matter what religious community he belongs to as long as he has faith in God and the herafter. Sunnis and Shias have many criteria needed for faith like the 5 pillars of Islam and the consensus of the Muslims scholars. So rejecting the Qibla for them is kufr however in the Koran the Koran downplays the significance of the Qibla. It tells us the Qibla direction is not a matter of faith or righteousness and that wherever we turn we will find God.

Very enlightening post from you, brother Bigmo. Thanks a lot. However, the most extremely difficult thing to discuss with the sunnites and shiites - more difficult than sunnah - is the concept of faith. You beautifully said

A believer in the Koran is someone who believes in God and the hereafter. It does nt matter what religious community he belongs to as long as he has faith in God and the herafter. Sunnis and Shias have many criteria needed for faith like the 5 pillars of Islam and the consensus of the Muslims scholars. So rejecting the Qibla for them is kufr however in the Koran the Koran downplays the significance of the Qibla

Thats the most dangerous thing for a sunni or shiite to hear, because it would break their monopolistic hold on religion. To say that there are OTHERS who would enter paradise than them, is totally unacceptanle for a sunni or shiite.

Beside that I found that whenever I speak with them.. for instance HIJAB for women is VERY important for the sunnites and shiites... To say that hijab is not required for women is KUFR for them.. now hijab and beard is a small issue for quranists but for sunnites and shiites its very big issues which defines your faith.. so the first questions i get from them is always something about hijab and beard and if I dont support the requirement of hijab they would label me as a kafir and refuse to listen to me further, like it happened in my small conversation with that sunni.

Moreover I experienced that sunnites and shiites despite all their disagreements, fighting etc. when it comes to quranists they join each other against the quranists. Quranist are the only people who unconsciously create peace and love between the sunnites and shiites, because they both have a common enemy to fight than.

It seems like there is a barrier between us and them which is very hard to break.

[Maha]

The majority of my close friends are Sunni Muslims. I don't think I'd ever be able to discuss the fallacies of ahadith with them or the Quran-Only approach, because I already know what kind of reactions I'll get. )

It is almost impossible.

Please paki tell me more. I lost my best friend due to my openess about my conversation. I think I hurted her by converting out of her religion, but it was very difficult for me not to reveal my thoughts and opinions to my close friends. How do you manage to keep your opinions to yourself only? And dont your friends have any idea about it?

[Maha]

Peace,

If you were trying to prove something to him, quote from the Qur'an. Your debate with him looks like its just a back and forth battle of "I'm right and you're wrong" between the both of you. Also, from what you posted here, you didn't answer his question when he asked about lashing people who have sex in the public (more than 4 witnesses) or if one admits to it. Lashing is indeed prescribed in the Qur'an for such people, there's no way around it. Avoiding it just places more doubt for him in regards to people that follow the Qur'an alone. Also, why do most Quranists (I'd personally refrain from using that word) see that cutting off the hands is unQuranic? You need to be able to explain these things and not just state them. He's basically doing the same thing.

Peace

Well everyone who debates is convinced that he is right and the otherone is wrong untill he is prooved wrong. So whats your problem? Do you want me to tell him from the beginning that i am wrong and he is right?? rotfl rotfl Look at your own post before you begin to attack others. Your own posts reveal that you ALWAYS think that you are right and the otherone is wrong.
Lashing is prescribed in the quran however its more symbolic, prescribed for people having public sex (hence the need of 4 witnesses) and I wonder if someone would dare to have public sex if he knew that he would be lashed for it.
I explained to him why most quranists hold another view on hand cutt off, and he didnt replied to that. What I discovered is that quranists know the quran 1000 times better than the sunnites do. Many religious sunnites never red the entire quran, but they know everything about what the mullah says and how they should practise their religious duties according to the hadithes. It seems like their scholers and hadith are given so much attention that the focus and emphasize is very little on the quran. In opposite to that, a quranist knows the quran in and out because his entire faith is based on that book, hence if a sunni and a quranist have a dialoge or debate based ONLY on the quran, the qunite would win and the sunnite would loose. Thats why sunnites mostly avoid talking about the quran with quranists but instead label them with various names and emphasize the need of hadith, history and scholers.

[Maha]

Peace Maha

I second amuslim, always always quote a verse from the Quran. It is the only way to put weight into an argument with the type of individual you are facing. Nothing else works.
And whenever he/she/they point out according to them a "flaw" in the QA movement such as the punishment for thieves (lets face it, we QA are not 100% in agreement) then it is better to surrender with humbleness and say "yes, there is a difference of opinion regarding that matter" If they proclaim your surrender as a victory for them you could always point out the embarrasing fact that within sunni or whatever they belong to there are also differences of opinion, for example some sunnis think it is ok to blow themselves up......

Humility, kindness and absolutely no pie-throwing. Whenever I am discussing with a hard-liner like this guy I am not writing to him, trying to prove him wrong. I think more of the people who are reading what we write, and maybe one of them will think "this QA movement seems interesting, maybe I will check it out"

Thanks dear Emil and welcome back. Well quoting quran verse does not always work because they use yousef ali translation of the quran and hence their quran translation is different on significant issues. Secondly, even when I quote quran verses the sunni would not look at the verse as I do because in his backhead he would have some hadith who ''explain'' that this verse of the quran is not really as it looks like. For instance when I quote to them quranic verse 569 which says that jews and christians would enter paradise if they believe in God and the last day, they quickly response that it means christians and jews BEFORE the coming of mohammed and not AFTER mohammed came and hence all christians and jews from the time of mohammed to today are all going to hell no matter what they believe. And than they give references to Ibn Kathir and some hadith to proove their point. So even quran quotings dont work with them.

And when I tell them that there are disagreements between the quranists about this or this issue they just laugh and claim that its excately due to NOT having disagreements that we need hadith and scholers. So once again they think, that haditherism is prooved right.

I cannot see any way out other than Gods guidence to them. Really.

[Pakistani_Assassin]

Please paki tell me more. I lost my best friend due to my openess about my conversation. I think I hurted her by converting out of her religion, but it was very difficult for me not to reveal my thoughts and opinions to my close friends. How do you manage to keep your opinions to yourself only? And dont your friends have any idea about it?

Thats it.

I don't think I'd be able to discuss such things because I may lose some of my closest friends. Religion is what they're main identity, particularly the 'Sunnah of Muhammad' and thats what they've been brought up with, essentially being brainwashed to the point they think it's absolute truth. I've noticed that Muslims in particular are much more serious about they're beliefs than say religious Christians/Sikhs due to the conservative nature of they're culture that is ingrained in their families (since most Muslims in the West are immigrants, or the children of immigrants).

If I do decide to discuss this topic, I know what the exact reactions of my friends will be. Something like "Astagfirullah, how can you not follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad", "Saying such things is shirk and will turn you into a non-muslim", "are you saying you know more than the great scholars of Islam?", "you're acting like the Qadianis" etc. It's funny because I used to be exactly like this, the arrogant religious type. I used to dislike Ahmadiyya Muslims too and join in on with my friends talking about how misguided they were. When we used to talk about topics such as the arrival of the Mahdi, Isa and Dajjal, I used to be at the front of the conversation reciting this Hadith and that Hadith, talking about prophecies etc.

It's hard keeping my opinions to myself, it really is but I somehow do. It's not uncommon for a friend to butt in on a particular conversation and say something along the likes of, "But I don't think it's Islamically correct", or "you shouldn't get too close to girls", and sometimes backbiting (when talking about a particular person - in this case a women who wears hijab) - "whats the point of wearing hijab when they wear it in such a fashionable way, thats not proper hijab". Such things are so irritating for me to hear and I often get the urge to interrupt and tell them how ethically wrong their views are and how they shouldn't be so quick to judge someone else, but instead I usually end up changing the topic and start talking about something else.

[amuslim]

Peace

Well everyone who debates is convinced that he is right and the otherone is wrong untill he is prooved wrong. So whats your problem? Do you want me to tell him from the beginning that i am wrong and he is right?? rotfl rotfl Look at your own post before you begin to attack others. Your own posts reveal that you ALWAYS think that you are right and the otherone is wrong.
Lashing is prescribed in the quran however its more symbolic, prescribed for people having public sex (hence the need of 4 witnesses) and I wonder if someone would dare to have public sex if he knew that he would be lashed for it.
I explained to him why most quranists hold another view on hand cutt off, and he didnt replied to that. What I discovered is that quranists know the quran 1000 times better than the sunnites do. Many religious sunnites never red the entire quran, but they know everything about what the mullah says and how they should practise their religious duties according to the hadithes. It seems like their scholers and hadith are given so much attention that the focus and emphasize is very little on the quran. In opposite to that, a quranist knows the quran in and out because his entire faith is based on that book, hence if a sunni and a quranist have a dialoge or debate based ONLY on the quran, the qunite would win and the sunnite would loose. Thats why sunnites mostly avoid talking about the quran with quranists but instead label them with various names and emphasize the need of hadith, history and scholers.

You really need to get that chip off your shoulder. I in no way was I attacking you. I was only giving you advice on how to talk to people. You push your agenda without giving adequate proof. You speak of other peoples interpretation that youve read about (not that there's anything wrong with it) but you provide no proof. It's fine to believe in what you believe, but if you don't give any proof to back up your claims, then you shouldn't say anything.

Similarly, when the Jews and Christians make their claims about paradise, God says to tell them

2111 Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

And regarding the way you choose to relay the message, God has another ayat for you. Maybe you should take advice from this, as I see you attack people that have views different from yours, something that this forum is not a stranger to

16125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.

Peace

[Jafar]

Thats the most dangerous thing for a sunni or shiite to hear, because it would break their monopolistic hold on religion. To say that there are OTHERS who would enter paradise than them, is totally unacceptanle for a sunni or shiite.

Yup.. that's #1 criteria for sectarians..
And it's not only happening in Sunniism or Shiaism but commonly found within Catholicism and Orthodox Christianism as well. The notion of 'you should join my religion unless you shall go to hell' were being started by them anyway, around 3-4th century. The sunnis and shiites just copied the same concept.

Thus the joke

A Hindu man dies and goes to heaven..
When he gets there, the attendant says,
Welcome!!, you'll be in room 19, but be very quiet when you walk past room 4.
The man ask why I have to be so quiet when I walk past it?
The attendant says Oh, those are the Catholics, they think they're the only ones here...

Feel free to replace "Catholics" with "Sunnis", "Shiites", "Orthodox", "Mormons", "Ahmadis", "Quranists" or whatever sect who think that they're the only one who shall go to Heaven..

Moreover I experienced that sunnites and shiites despite all their disagreements, fighting etc. when it comes to quranists they join each other against the quranists. Quranist are the only people who unconsciously create peace and love between the sunnites and shiites, because they both have a common enemy to fight than.

The jews, christians, ahmadis, buddhists, hindus, atheists can also play the same role perfectly.
But afterwards they will still be at each others throat again..
The same thing happened on any sects...

Salam / Peace

[Maha]

Jafar

Yup.. that's #1 criteria for sectarians..
And it's not only happening in Sunniism or Shiaism but commonly found within Catholicism and Orthodox Christianism as well. The notion of 'you should join my religion unless you shall go to hell' were being started by them anyway, around 3-4th century. The sunnis and shiites just copied the same concept.

Thus the joke

A Hindu man dies and goes to heaven..
When he gets there, the attendant says,
Welcome!!, you'll be in room 19, but be very quiet when you walk past room 4.
The man ask why I have to be so quiet when I walk past it?
The attendant says Oh, those are the Catholics, they think they're the only ones here...

Feel free to replace "Catholics" with "Sunnis", "Shiites", "Orthodox", "Mormons", "Ahmadis", "Quranists" or whatever sect who think that they're the only one who shall go to Heaven..

Lol that joke was a good one... It should be like this ''Join my religion and you would SURELY go to hell'' ;D ;D ;D ;D

I dont have so much contact with quranists, but both brother Bigmo and some other 'quranists' have clearly mentioned that anyone who believes in God and the last day (quran 569) would enter paradise no matter his religion or no matter how ateist he must be. I Myself also believe that there are muslims everywhere and kafirs everywhere. But whenever I say that, sectarians begin to hate me.
But it should not surprise me if some quranists hold the opinion that everyone except themselves should go to Hell.

We must begin a new topic about the danger of becoming a quranist sect.

[Maha]

Thats it.

I don't think I'd be able to discuss such things because I may lose some of my closest friends. Religion is what they're main identity, particularly the 'Sunnah of Muhammad' and thats what they've been brought up with, essentially being brainwashed to the point they think it's absolute truth. I've noticed that Muslims in particular are much more serious about they're beliefs than say religious Christians/Sikhs due to the conservative nature of they're culture that is ingrained in their families (since most Muslims in the West are immigrants, or the children of immigrants).

If I do decide to discuss this topic, I know what the exact reactions of my friends will be. Something like "Astagfirullah, how can you not follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad", "Saying such things is shirk and will turn you into a non-muslim", "are you saying you know more than the great scholars of Islam?", "you're acting like the Qadianis" etc. It's funny because I used to be exactly like this, the arrogant religious type. I used to dislike Ahmadiyya Muslims too and join in on with my friends talking about how misguided they were. When we used to talk about topics such as the arrival of the Mahdi, Isa and Dajjal, I used to be at the front of the conversation reciting this Hadith and that Hadith, talking about prophecies etc.

It's hard keeping my opinions to myself, it really is but I somehow do. It's not uncommon for a friend to butt in on a particular conversation and say something along the likes of, "But I don't think it's Islamically correct", or "you shouldn't get too close to girls", and sometimes backbiting (when talking about a particular person - in this case a women who wears hijab) - "whats the point of wearing hijab when they wear it in such a fashionable way, thats not proper hijab". Such things are so irritating for me to hear and I often get the urge to interrupt and tell them how ethically wrong their views are and how they shouldn't be so quick to judge someone else, but instead I usually end up changing the topic and start talking about something else.

Subhanallah so true what you are writing. I excately feel as you do. When I first lost my sunni best friend i became very afraid of loosing my others friends so i was very consious about not revealing too much of my views although i felt it was an act of an coward... true friends would remain your friends even when you disagree with their religion (but its hard for sunnites to understand that since they made islam their identity). But believe me, its when you disagree with your friends you would get to know if they are your true friends or not.
I am a former sunni so I can best talk on the behalf of sunnites.
Just ponder on this The West have reached the moon while the sunnites still discuss whether a woman is allowed to drive or not What kind of joke have these sunnites made their own religion into?? And than they wonder why the West is far more advanced then they are??

Excately as you mentioned, whenever - especially us from muslim backgrounds - question the sunni belief instead of getting an answer we get 'ASTAGHFIRULLAH' on our faces, we are threaten with hell and in this way the sunnites have made hell on the earth for people who question them. They have prevented the mind from questioning, choosing (by declaring death sentence for murdad, apostates) and comapring(by not allowing other religions to propegate) even though its the same mind God gave people in order to choose between paradise and hell. The truth is, that God honored every human being by allowing him/her to choose his path of life, but these sunnites simply disagree with God himself.

However, I would advice you to next time you make ''new friends'' to choose more open-minded liberal ones, as I do now when I make ''new friends''.

[Maha]

Peace

You really need to get that chip off your shoulder. I in no way was I attacking you. I was only giving you advice on how to talk to people. You push your agenda without giving adequate proof. You speak of other peoples interpretation that youve read about (not that there's anything wrong with it) but you provide no proof. It's fine to believe in what you believe, but if you don't give any proof to back up your claims, then you shouldn't say anything.

Similarly, when the Jews and Christians make their claims about paradise, God says to tell them

2111 Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

And regarding the way you choose to relay the message, God has another ayat for you. Maybe you should take advice from this, as I see you attack people that have views different from yours, something that this forum is not a stranger to

16125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.

Peace

If you read my post you would have known that I provided proof afterwards, but you simply have a problem with your attitude.

16125 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.

This verse really dont make sense for you since you dont argue, you simply attack. If you are so rude with a God-aloner like me, I really cant imagine how rude you must be with the sectarians. I am waiting to see improvements from you regarding your negative attitude and rudeness towards me.

[Bigmo]

Very enlightening post from you, brother Bigmo. Thanks a lot. However, the most extremely difficult thing to discuss with the sunnites and shiites - more difficult than sunnah - is the concept of faith. You beautifully said

Thats the most dangerous thing for a sunni or shiite to hear, because it would break their monopolistic hold on religion. To say that there are OTHERS who would enter paradise than them, is totally unacceptanle for a sunni or shiite.

Beside that I found that whenever I speak with them.. for instance HIJAB for women is VERY important for the sunnites and shiites... To say that hijab is not required for women is KUFR for them.. now hijab and beard is a small issue for quranists but for sunnites and shiites its very big issues which defines your faith.. so the first questions i get from them is always something about hijab and beard and if I dont support the requirement of hijab they would label me as a kafir and refuse to listen to me further, like it happened in my small conversation with that sunni.

Moreover I experienced that sunnites and shiites despite all their disagreements, fighting etc. when it comes to quranists they join each other against the quranists. Quranist are the only people who unconsciously create peace and love between the sunnites and shiites, because they both have a common enemy to fight than.

It seems like there is a barrier between us and them which is very hard to break.

Thats true but lets look at it from their point of view. Most Muslims don't have even a fraction of the knowledge every Koranist has since we had to find our way here. When our children grow up and become Koranist because dad and mom are Koranist then they too might be ignorant since they got into the religion based on their parents upbringing rather than their own research. But as of now nearly all Koranist became Koranist because of self research.This means we are far more knwoledgeable than the average Muslims especiallya s far as the Koran is concerned.

Now the average Muslims would ask himself this question. Are all the Muslims wrong and these guys are right? Are all the scholars of Islam throught history not aware of what the Koran says? Why isn't anybody following this Islam then? How come I don't see any Koranist around and how could it be that all the Muslims are wrong and these few guys are right?

That is why abrogation is such an avoided topic by many Sunni/Shia scholars since it makes people realize that they are not following all the Koran. But anyways my guess is as the number of Koranist grow and people hear and see them more, these very same people who are wondering how can the Koranist be right will be the pigeons that will follow the Koranist way. I guess what I am trying to say is 90% of humans are conformist and not individualist when it comes to religion. At one time the Sunnis and Shias were a minority and they faced many criticism. Al Shafi was considered a heretic and a controversial person. looking at his treatise "Al Risala" we can see how his ideas about the Sunnah was an innovation unheard of by most Muslims at his time.

Al-Shafi and the invention of the so called Sunnah

knowledge and how much should men know of it?

30. Shafii replied Legal knowledge is of two kinds one is for the general public, and no sober and mature person should be ignorant of it.

31. He asked For example?

32. replied For example, that the daily prayers are five, that men owe it to God to fast the month of Ramadan, to make the pilgrimage to the House whenever they are able, and to the legal alms in their estate; that He has prohibited usury, adultery, homicide, theft, wine, and of that sort which He has obligated men to comprehend, to perform, to pay in their property, and to abstain from He has forbidden it to them.

This kind of knowledge may be found textually in the Book of God, or may be found generally among the people of Islam. The public relates it from the preceding public and ascribes it to the Apostle of God, nobody ever questioning its ascription or its binding force upon them. It is the kind of knowledge which admits of error neither in its narrative nor in its interpretation; it is not permissible to question it.

33. He asked What is the second kind?

34. Shafii replied It consists of the detailed duties and rules obligatory on men, concerning which there exists neither a text in the Book of God, nor regarding most of them, a sunna. Whenever a sunna exists , it is of the kind related by few authorities, not by the public, and is subject to different interpretations arrived at by analogy.

35. He asked Is replied There is a third kind .

36. He asked Will you explain it, give its source, and state what of it is obligatory, and on whom it is binding and on whom it is not binding?

37. replied The public is incapable of knowing this kind of knowledge, nor can all specialists obtain it. But those who do obtain it should not all neglect it. If some can obtain it, the others are relieved of the duty ; but those who do obtain it will be rewarded.

ON THE OBLIGATION OF MAN TO ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE PROPHET

A Declaration Concerning the Duty Imposed by God, as Laid Down in His Book, To Follow the Prophets Sunna

86. Shafii said God has placed His Apostle His religion, His commands and His Bookin the position made clear by Him as a distinguishing standard of His religion by imposing the duty of obedience to Him as well as prohibiting disobedience to Him. He has made His merits evident by associating belief in His Apostle with the belief in Him. For God, Blessed and Most High, said

So believe in God and His Apostles, and do not say Three. Refrain; better for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him. His having a son is something alien to him .

And He said

The believers are only those who have believed in God and His Apostle, and who when they are with him on some common affair do not go away until they ask his permission .

Thus prescribed that the perfect beginning of the faith, to which all other things are subordinate, shall be the belief in Him and then in His Apostle. For if a person believes only in Him, not in His Apostle, the name of the perfect faith will never apply to him until he believes in His Apostle together with Him.

So the Apostle laid down the sunna for testing the faith of every man

https//www.fonsvitae.com/OnlineStore/tabid/58/pid/143/0863-Treatise-on-the-Foundations-of-Islamic-Jurisprudence-Al-Shafiis-Risala.aspx

Notice Al Shafi claiming two source and maybe three exist in Islam. Something that people at the time have not heard of. Notice how he had to explain why its obligatory, something no Muslims today would even ask. Notice also how he says that this revelation (the Sunnah) is not availbale to the public but is in the hands of a few authorities. Finally notice Al Shafi using verses of the Koran to make way for this new revelation since the Koran wa sthe only source people had at the time. We can see he used the same verses that Sunnis use to validate the Sunnah. Mainly the"obey God and obey his meesenger" verses and "the Koran and wisdom" verses. Shafi claimed that the term "wisdom" meant in those verses was the Sunnah.

During Al Shafi the Mutaziltes (the Koranist) were in power. The Sunnis came to power by political alliance with the Abbasids (Al Mutawakkil era) since the Mutaziltes could not find the ink in the Koran to give the ruling class absolute authority the way the Sunnis and Shias can. They simply need to manufacture some hadiths to do that. This is why we see such discrepancy regarding the prophetic authority between the Koran and Sunnah. By elevating the prophetic authority to divine like status, the Sunnis and Shias were then able to transfer that authority to the ruling elites by default. That is probably whyall the ruling classes in Islamic histiry allied themselves with the Sects since the sects gave that authority to the ruling class especially the Sunnis. The Shias as the main oppossition party gave that authority to the Cleric since they were not the ruling Sect in the Abbasid era. The Sunnis were the ruling Sect so they gave all authority to the ruler. Something the Mutaziltes could never do since the only source they had was the Koran and the Koran is exlplicit about the prophetic authority. Unless someone infringes on another human being;s right, the prophet had no authority over him. Whether that person wants to believe or give Zakat or fast Ramadan or do whatever is not his business. Since the highest authority a person can have n Earth is prophetic authority, this meant that nobody could have a higher authority than the prophet had. This was seen as dangerous and not useful by the ruling class, mainly the Abbasids and all that came after them.

The ruling classes in islam were predominately Meccans and they have no real claim to fame except their geneology so it made sense to them to trace their political authority to Muhammad just like they relied on their geneology to rise to power. This is how tribal societies operate and no tribe can be more noble than the Muhammadan tribe, the Banu Hashims who the Abbasids trace their origins to. Abbas was Muhammad's uncle and his son was Abdullah Ibn Abbas appears many times in Bukhari's hadith as a narrator.

The Meccans elites couldn't claim to have hadiths from Moses or Noah so it made sense to them to elevate muhammad's toi divine like status both in status and in revelation, than to emphasize his humanity and thus this authority and status can now be transfered to the Meccan elites by default. They became the most noble of the tribes with absolute authority. The companions were the bride that transfered that authority to the ruler since it=f they kept that authority with Muhammad himself than it would have meant that this suthority may not be able to transfer to anybody else except another prophet. The Ridda war of Abu Bkar is a perfect example of that authority transfer so are many hadiths about Umar and Ali. perhaps these four companions who ruled after Muhammad were not down with this game so the Meccan and their allies assasinated them.

We can see from the Koran that one of the requests made by the Meccans was

10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

This sounds very similar to this

The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an

The Sunnah can be divided into three parts

Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.

Explanatory Sunnah.

This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.

Sunnah that brings new legislation.

This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.

http//www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php?p=1

The red part and blue example we can see is

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

So a general statement like this was made specific and not refering to all Jews and Christians but perhaps Jews and Christians before Muhammad or the Jews and Christians during Jesus's time and Moses' time. They then added the 5 pillars to change that criteria. The 5 pillars is an example of the blue part highlighted.

(9.29) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Here a verse that was aimed at the Meccans and their Jewish allies who persecuted Muhammad and drove him and his followers out of Mecca and how they now should be compensated for their losses (war reperation) was made to be a general statement that is to be applied on all Jews and Christians that live under Muslim rule. They then came and made hadiths about how Abu Bakr and Umar etc imposed Jizya on non Muslims and came up with the infamous hadith "I was ordered to fight the people till they say La Ilaha Ila Allah" that changed the war criteria in the Koran from a defensive war to an offensive hence began the era of the Islamic conquest. Here we see how things made specific was made general and vice versa and how things were added to fulfill the Meccan requirements that the Koran be changed, Unabale to change the Koran they opted for the other request they gave Muhammad which is to come up with another Koran which they called the Sunnah than they can do the changing they wanted.

We know of course there is another place the Sunnah has that dare not say its name and that is the Sunna can abrogate the Koran. But of course clerics hate to say this in public. Apostasy law is a an example of that which is why throughtout Islamic history we know of very little cases when this law was applied since its too controversial. Abrogation is a crime against humanity and a conspiracy against the Koran. Stoning the adulterer is another law never practiced in Islamic history except nowadays with the rise of the Islamist. It was one of the added legislations but it was seen as too much of an addition and hence avoided. Muhamamd Ibn AbulWahhab, the founder of the Wahhabi movement was the firt person rumored to have actually applied this lwa but its not certain. He was then rumored to have been expelled from the city by taking the law into his hands. He was an idiot who was not probably trained and probably did not understand why this issue was controversial, typical salafis. They are not smart or trained as the other Sunni authorities who understood that this can open a whole can of worms for them.

Lets look at the verse again

10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

Notice the answer Muhammad gave them was "i don't have that authority to add legislation, to spin verses and make general specific and vice versa and I certainly don't have the authority to abrogate (delete) verses if your agenda requires me to do so". That is probably when the Meccans realized they have no way out but to finish off with Muhammad since he was not cooperating with them. But the answer given in that verse tells us the limited authoity he has when it came with the laws of the Koran.

Of course this is only one aspect of the Sunnah (political class influences), there are pre Islamic paganism influences, Persian and Zoroastrian influences, Judaic influences, common culture and beduin influences and there are even probably many Koranist influences also in the Sunnah. The Sunnah reflects the ideological and cultural battles that Muslims communities engaged in hence the contraditions we see in the Sunnah. As Koranist we probably don't really care what the agendas was and how they went about promoting them since its the Koran's agenda we are interested in but it's very interesting how we see the agendas unfolding in the Sunnah. But in the end its not really a concern to us.

[Paradox_Uncreated]

The reactions I got, more than 7 years ago probably now, when I first enganged them, coming to their website having followed the Quran for a few years, loving God, even crying when I read the Quran because I found it to be so beautiful, they called me disbelievers, would not listen to logic about satan, did not accept homophilia as bad, told me to "fill your heart with the love of sahaba", and me thinking that wasn`t God enough.

And then they threatened to take away my priveledges in the forum, and give access to "disbelievers" only.

And then they banned.

I tried going back there, but same thing, only mentioning "following Quran Alone" got me banned.

Later I met them on a social network local to Norway.
One moderator talked about "being an idol to their children".
Another had hasish-smoking nuns on their profile.
Their imam is frequently making rabid statements.
The ones who banned me in the forum, make "cool guy" ban statements.
Another imam in the forum says "I am not of the saliheen (godconscious)", all of the quran, and prayers are so you shall be godconscious.
that social network did close down, due to much unserious activity.
I met them in another social network now defunct also, where again I was banned for defending Quran Alone. A much stronger feeling of sectarianhood athmosphere there. I could almost feel how their feared their imams, and couldnt say anything. And like they didnt know the country around them, and democratic prinicples, of freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.

Other than these, I see on youtube that some sectarians take the teachings of satan seriously, and that is good.
Then again you see muslimvlogguy and he is an ignorant provocateur. He is probably worshipped and lashes out agains Quran Aloners, because they don`t worship him.

I have however looked a bit at Iran lately, and I am getting some good vibes.
In Norway people react on this country, but I see so many good things.
First of all hadith, don`t seem that central there. And even if they are followed, they also include statements on intelligence.

• No interests in their banks.
• Drugbarons are executed. (imagine they complain about that here)
• Gays are executed. (They harassed me for years on the internet, I can only imagine a place without them being wonderful.)
• Ofcourse they have and know the Quran. Which for serious people, should mean intelligence, non-promiscuity, morality, familyvalues, etc.
• I am going to go there, when I get the money. I might travel to other muslim countries too. We`ll see.a

Even in wahabbi Saudi-Arabia I can see people with sense. They sendt back an extremist to norway, on 9/11-2011, that talked about a new 9/11 on norwegian grounds. I interpreted that as giving that day a better name, by working against an extremist.

I am going to do some more research though, and when time and money allows I am going to travel abit. There are probably good people in this country, that arent enemies of Quran-followers. Even if it should be a problem, I dont need to make a big political fuss, and make it known. I just want to see some culture based on the Quran

Ofcourse if they turn out to be like the sectarians in the forums over here, its going to be a big dissapointment. But people cant all be taht stupid.