the promised paradise?
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Salaam
i recently had a discussion with christians about islam and christainity. They proided me with a booklet which compared the bible and Quran and later in the discussion tried to convince me the bible actually supercedes the Quran when i tried to say that i believe the quran supercedes previous scriptures.
In the booklet however i came across 2 points.the first was regarding the promised paradise bieng here on earth. this is the qoute directly from the booklet-
We read in surah 21 verse 105-{ We wrote in the Psalms after the torah had been given, the righteous will inherit the earth}. compare surah 39 verses 73 and 74.
Yes centuries before, Psalms (zebur) 3729 revealed that the promised paradise would be on earth. It reads {The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and the will reside forever upon it.}Then the booklet goes on to describe paradise from the Bible.
When reading the quran i always got the idea that the heaven would be somewhere else rather than specifically earth not like what the booklet stated above. Ive read the verses before 2110521103 (Asad) The supreme awesomeness will cause them no grief, since the angels will receive them with the greeting. ?This is your Day which you were promised!?
21103 (Y. Ali) The Great Terror will bring them no grief but the angels will meet them (with mutual greetings) "This is your Day,- (the Day) that ye were promised."
21103 (Picktall) The Supreme Horror will not grieve them, and the angels will welcome them, (saying) This is your Day which ye were promised;
21104 (Asad) On that Day We shall roll up the skies as written scrolls are rolled up; as We brought into being the first creation, so We shall bring it forth anew a promise which We have willed upon Our?selves for, behold, We are able to do !
21104 (Y. Ali) The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one a promise We have undertaken truly shall We fulfil it.
21104 (Picktall) The Day when We shall roll up the heavens and a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it.
21105 (Asad) AND, INDEED, after having exhorted ,We laid it down in all the books of divine wisdom that My righteous servants shall inherit the earth
21105 (Y. Ali) Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses) My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."
21105 (Picktall) And verity We have written in the Scripture, after the Reminder My righteous slaves will inherit the earth
these verses 103 and 104 tell me how we will return to God. and the verse 105 describes how the righteous inherit the earth from other those before them who did evil and has nothing to do with heaven well thats the way i see it. I would like to get others views on this matter so i can see other perspectives. insight from former christians and others who have knowledge of the bible would be much appreciated.
the second point the booklet made was how the bible cannot be changed. i quote-
Almighty God could by no means allow such a thing. The Quran declares {None can change the decrees of Allah}.- surah 6 verse 34.
The holy bible makes a similar declaration as follows { the green grass has dried up, blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite} Isaiah 408.
Compare surah 10 verse 94{if you doubt what We have revealed to you, ask those who have read the scriptures before you}the booklet follows on to say how the verses of trinity was added in the king james version of the bible and how apparently these verses are omitted from modern translations of the bible. It aso mentions that ancient manuscripts obviously older than the Quran are in museams todaya nd when the modern bible is compared these scriptures it means that the text is the same as those written by Gods "inspired" ancient servants.
This was the points above made by the christians i was talking to and they implied that it meant the bible supercedes the Quran because apparently it hasnt changed and is written before the Quran. But it does not go down well with me from the little i know of christain history i assume the writers of the bible didnt live at the time of Jesus. so did the messenger actually say everything in the bible. the quran for me provides a criteria of how to judge truth from false hood.
I would like to hear others views on these to points so i can see ideas i may have missed through my lack of knowledge and ignorance.
may God guide and show us all the truth
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Peace
God is ONE God, the same truth.
So all messages from God are the same message in essence.
Therefore the bible contains the quran, the quran contains the bible. Same with the book of moses, and all preceding books.
Simple as that. There is your furqan/criterion if both books agree it is the message of God. If both books disagree then we part ways, some follow quran, some choose bible. God will judge between us when the time comes. So prepare for that day and leave them alone to do what they wish.
peace
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Peace seekingtruth,
What organization name is listed on the pamphlet?
Keep in mind that no scripture says that the Bible, etc, will not change, it says that the word of God will not change. God's central message has not changed, even though it looks different in the Torah, Gospel, and Quran.
-Joel
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Salaam IAMOP and Maverick
I agree entirely with IAMOP's post. When i heard these points, what you posted are the thoughts that ran through my head at the time. The thing is none of what they said really made me think the bible superceeded the Quran but i just wanted a way to better clarify my position next time i encounter them, at first i thought they were just describing how the quran and bible are similar which i was already aware of but later i kind of got the feeling they were saying that maybe the bible was enough which i disagreed with as per the Quran the message of god is the same through the ages so similarities will be there but that doesn't imply we must follow the bible in its entirety.
Peace seekingtruth,
What organization name is listed on the pamphlet?
Keep in mind that no scripture says that the Bible, etc, will not change, it says that the word of God will not change. God's central message has not changed, even though it looks different in the Torah, Gospel, and Quran.
-Joel
The name on the booklet is given as watch tower and tract society.
I assume they dont believe jesus to be son of god but i never got around to asking them.
you make an interesting point about no scripture saying the bible will not change and the quote they provided { the green grass has dried up, blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite}from Isaiah 408, you have explained it really well in your post which were my initail thoughts on it. Gods word can never change and the main message will not change. God also mentions the Quran is protected which i assume is not given in previous scriptures.i thank you for your thoughts, much appreciated. It nice to know others share similar views to my own it refreshing. )
peace peace
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They are Jehovah Witnesses. They think differently then most Christian sects. The Jehovah's put out a magazine and booklets called Watchtower, they do not celebrate Christmas and Easter, Birthdays or anything else like that. I actually have 2 ladies come to my house every now and then for debate, but very friendly debate.
I understand what they are saying yet how can they say the bible super-cede the Qur'an when the bible does in fact contain over 10,000 contradictions in the new testament alone. The TRUE word of God can not be changed however the Gospels started to appear over 70 years after Jesus.
They are fully focused on Islam due to it's growth. They strive to fullfil Matthew 2414, basically stating, Once everyone knows about Jesus the world will end.
Here is the exact verse "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
Basically the Qu'ran just makes clear the truth of previous scriptures. Just because the torah and gospels are older does not make the better. The Qur'an was sent as a confirmation as to what was sent before so ppl could know it was from God.
Basic beliefs...
No trinity at all. They don't follow that, they only believe in a single, solitary God and his name is Jehovah. Jesus, as Jehovah's son, is a separate individual second only to his father. The holy spirit is simply Jehovah God's active force.God did not Create the Universe Directly- this is where it gets goofy! They believe that Michael the Archangel is the only thing which Jehovah created personally. Michael created everything else under Jehovah's direction. They also believe that Jesus was in fact Michael made flesh. Michael, now called Jesus, is second only to Jehovah in power and authority.
No Eternal Damnation. Hell as mentioned in the Bible, merely describes the grave after death. In some cases, it may also refer to everlasting destruction. Note that they reject the Christian belief in a human soul. Living things (including humans) do not have a soul, but instead they are souls in and of themselves.
Only the 144,000 go to Heaven, All non-Witnesses and "Worldly" Orgs are under the devil's control and they even have excommunications by their elders.
as far as heaven they also believe An earthly resurrection and paradise as non-anointed Witnesses expect to live forever right here on Earth. They have no "heavenly hope." It is believed that only faithful Witnesses will survive Armageddon and live to see Christ's Millennial Reign. Nearly everyone who ever lived will be resurrected and made young again, but this excludes those killed during Armageddon. The surviving Witnesses will train the resurrected to believe the Watchtower Society's teachings and to worship as they do. They will also work toward making the Earth a paradise. Any resurrected person that refuses to go along with this new arrangement will be killed permanently by Jesus, never to be resurrected again.
Anyway hope it helps
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Salaam Indelwyn
Thank you for response. I rarely get visits from jehovahs witnesses, i had heard of them growing up but hadnt met any till recently. Your post has been extremely useful, i dont like to be too ignorant of others beliefs so atleast when i meet them again i can have a healthy discussion about their ideas and if God wills it maybe bring the truth to them through the Quran because when talking to them they seem to assume i was a traditional muslim and maybe they could be enlightened to the true beauty of the Quran.
Thanks again much appreciated.
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Yes! The ladies I speak to tried using traditional islam, aka hadiths for their proof, but when I told them about the history of hadith and what I believe, they really started to listen! They seriously come every 2-3 weeks and have tea with me. But I love discussing this stuff so I don't mind
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The Bible is a collection of selected writings. It includes the (older) Old Testament section and the (newer) New Testament section. The Bible contents were translated through other languages to make the modern language Bibles.
There have been found, from all indications apparently undisturbed for close to some two thousand years prior, ancient copies of texts of some of the same works ("books" that are included among the Old Testament scriptures. The ancient texts long pre-dated the Quran and any versions of the Bible. Scholars working backwards through the translations of those particular Biblical works -- retracing their translations back from the Bible translations through the intervening translations from prior source texts -- agree that there is remarkable correspondence between what were the source texts from which those works began to go through translations to become part of the Bible, and those older texts stored long before the translations for the Bible creation project began. That archaeological find of even much older texts of those particular works made possible comparison of them to what would have been those other later texts from which some Bible contents were first translated in the series of translations that ended in their inclusion in modern language Bibles. The correspondence between the much older stored texts and the Bible source texts shows that there was no noteworthy change in those Hebrew texts produced and used by the Jewish people in the intervening centuries between the time of the storage of the older texts and the time that those particular Old Testament source texts were copied. Its real significance is that it indicates that those who had been copying (independently of the older stored scrolls) those particular Hebrew scriptures to keep written copies extant and in use had taken great care to do faithful copying. It does not prove that the Bible has not been altered. Further, it does not mean that the Bible per se was made from the direction of God.
The Quran assures us that it is a protected book. It also tells us that it is a confirmation of the teachings sent before. Clearly, the Bible content includes some teachings sent before. This is not to say that (the entirety of) the Bible (in any of its variations) per se is the teachings that were sent before.
On this linked thread are some posts I made some time back that touch a little on the history/development of the Bible. I hope my little posts there will be helpful to your understanding.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602994.0
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Yes! The ladies I speak to tried using traditional islam, aka hadiths for their proof, but when I told them about the history of hadith and what I believe, they really started to listen! They seriously come every 2-3 weeks and have tea with me. But I love discussing this stuff so I don't mind P
Some local ones come to visit me pretty regularly too. )
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No need to debate...
This is similar to "Who is greater? Jesus or Muhammad or Moses?"..Quran never claimed to 'supercedes' / 'more superior' than the Bible.
Trinity in Christianism is like Shahada in Sunniism.
There are no trinity verse in Bible! And there are no Shahada in the Quran!.When discussing with Christians I usually show them what true islam is all about
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come,
Let Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.Salam / Peace