Transalation of proper names of AQ?
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Peace NOMAD,
Lol, a Strong's Concordance is divided into sections for Hebrew words (Jewish Scriptures) and Greek words (Christian Scriptures). If you don't actually know the language, a Strong's search won't do you any good.
I'm not really sure what your point is with all of the proof-texting, so here's all I'm going to say. If you want to transliterate the names as they are, go ahead. BUT if you aere doing i to say that they are not the same as the people in the Torah and Gospel, then you are trying to rewrite history. Make whatever argument you want about the names themselves, the context connects them to the stories found in prior scripture.
Peace,
JoelSalaam )
Peace, somehow even in hebrew is easy to search
IN HEBREW OT
STRONG`s CONCORDANCE
Miryam a sister of Aaron,
Original Word
Transliteration Miryam
Phonetic Spelling (meer-yawm'
Short Definition MiriamNAS EXAUSTIV CONCORDANCE
Word Origin
from the same as Merayah
Definition
a sister of Aaron,
NASB Word Usage
Miriam (15).15 Occurrences
l?mir?ym ? 1 Occ.
mir?ym ? 11 Occ.
?mir?ym ? 3 Occ.Exodus 1520
BIB
NAS Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's
KJV And Miriam the prophetess, the sister
INT took Miriam the prophetess sisterExodus 1521
BIB
NAS Miriam answered them, Sing
KJV And Miriam answered them, Sing
INT answered Miriam Sing to the LORDNumbers 121
BIB
NAS Then Miriam and Aaron spoke
KJV And Miriam and Aaron spake
INT spoke Miriam and Aaron MosesNumbers 124
BIB
NAS and Aaron and to Miriam, You three
KJV and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out
INT Aaron and to Miriam come threeNumbers 125
BIB
NAS Aaron and Miriam. When they had both
KJV Aaron and Miriam and they both
INT called Aaron and Miriam come had bothNumbers 1210
BIB
NAS behold, Miriam leprous,
KJV from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam leprous,
INT the tent behold Miriam leprous snowNumbers 1210
BIB
NAS toward Miriam, behold,
KJV looked upon Miriam, and, behold, leprous.
INT Aaron toward Miriam behold she leprousNumbers 1215
BIB
NAS So Miriam was shut up outside
KJV And Miriam was shut out
INT was shut Miriam out the campNumbers 1215
BIB
NAS on until Miriam was received
KJV journeyed not till Miriam was brought
INT until was received MiriamNumbers 201
BIB
NAS at Kadesh. Now Miriam died
KJV in Kadesh; and Miriam died
INT died there now Miriam was buried thereNumbers 2659
BIB
NAS and Moses and their sister Miriam.
KJV and Moses, and Miriam their sister.
INT Aaron and Moses Miriam and their sisterDeuteronomy 249
BIB
NAS did to Miriam on the way
KJV did unto Miriam by the way,
INT God your God to Miriam the way came1 Chronicles 417
BIB
NAS and she conceived Miriam, Shammai
KJV and she bare Miriam, and Shammai,
INT and Jalon bare Miriam Shammai and Ishbah1 Chronicles 63
BIB
NAS Moses and Miriam. And the sons
KJV and Moses, and Miriam. The sons
INT Aaron Moses and Miriam and the sons of AaronMicah 64
BIB
NAS you Moses, Aaron and Miriam.
KJV thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.
INT Moses Aaron and MiriamWhy they just dont translate Marya? oopss O0
I keep saying even in Portuguese or whatever all this are different names MIRI?(?=M), MARIA, MARISA, MARIANA, MARI, MIRNA, MARILDA,MARIETA, MariSTela, Majorie, whatever...
Each person have its own name, no translations.(point)
sunSallam and may Allah(The Creator) guide us into Enlightment peace pr
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Every name has a meaning....Even "Khan" who said there is no meaning to his name is wrong, as the word "Khan" means "King/Leader".
Salaam Layth,
I did not say that there is no meaning to names. I said names cannot be translated, it means for calling. Even if Khan means King/Leader we don't use it for calling someone. Right? Hope you understand my point.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Whatever opinion one may have on the persons or places who are named in the Qur'an if the "translate" them, they are putting the Qur'an accuracy at the mercy of historical interpretations or vision of facts or non facts of which we may not have certain knowledge, then anybody could say the the Qur'an was wrong because somebody's assumption on what the translation of a certain might be is attributed tot he Qur'an, whereas it is the assumption of a person. Why make the accuracy and the meaning of the Qur'an dependente on something else?
That is what has been done many a time to the detriment of the Qur'an like the nonsense about the angels running a way where the hair of a woman shows or whatever. That is not the Qur'an but from the Jewish tradition. Now the muslims are stuck with it. That is a bigh mistake.
We cannot make the Qur'an dependent on any other religious literature.
Salaam
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We cannot make the Qur'an dependent on any other religious literature.
Salaam
Peace,
I understand what you are saying. There is much that has to be undone in terms of separating the hadith from the Quran. But don't make a bigger mistake by separating the Quran from its place among the other revealed texts. Maybe it is easier for me to see because I don't have the baggage of the hadiths to get rid of, but the Quran cannot properly be understood in any other way than as a part of what was revealed to Moses, to the prophets, and to Jesus.
-Joel
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Sallaam
3444
Sahih International
And We had not given them any scriptures which they could study, and We had not sent to them before you, , any warner.Pickthall
And We have given them no scriptures which they study, nor sent We unto them, before thee, any warner.Dr. Ghali
And in no way have We brought them any Books which they study, and in no way have We sent them before you any constant warner.3445
Sahih International
And those before them denied, and the people of Makkah have not attained a tenth of what We had given them. But the former peoples denied My messengers, so how was My reproach.Pickthall
Those before them denied, and these have not attained a tithe of that which We bestowed on them (of old); yet they denied My messengers. How intense then was My abhorrence (of them)!Dr. Ghali
And (the ones) before them cried lies, and in no way did they reach a tenth of what We brought them. So they cried lies to My Messengers. Then how was My disclaiming!Allah knows best pr
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Salaam,
I agree with Nomad. I actually have no problem that
Ibrahim = Abraham
or
Yusuf = Joseph
etc.BUT
Idries = Enoch ??? When I first read this name on the FM translation I really had no idea to who it was referring to, I am also very curious why the translator thinks that it is the same person, because there is almost no "relevant" data in The Quran to link Idries to the Biblical Enoch.Yahya = John ??? the meaning of Yahya is different from what John means.
Also Thalut = Saul and Zjalut = Goliath is in my opinion very confusing
There are also some words (not people's names) which I think can be better left untranslated for example ?Saqar? it is translated as "scorching heat" (7426) while it doesn't mean that according to The Quran. The verses next explain in full detail what the exact definition is.
Or "hawiya" 1019 is not "the lowest" according to 10111.
I know, maybe in "normal" arabic they mean "scorching heat" and "the lowest" but The Quran gives them other definitions.There are much more examples.
Anyhow I believe that the FM translation is one of the best and I like to thank the translator for it because it was without doubt very time-consuming and a lot of hard work, thank you )
Salaam Bender
ps. I don't know if Ibrahim and Yusuf have meanings in Arabic and if the arabic meanings corresponds with the english meaning of Abraham and Joseph, would be a nice study.
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BUT
Idries = Enoch ??? When I first read this name on the FM translation I really had no idea to who it was referring to, I am also very curious why the translator thinks that it is the same person, because there is almost no "relevant" data in The Quran to link Idries to the Biblical Enoch.And recall in the Book, Enoch; he was a man of truth, a prophet. And We raised him to a high place. (1956-57)
Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. (Genesis 524)
While I know there is debate on whether or not the verb in Arabic means an actual physical raising or a giving of respect, I believe there is at least one use of the verb where it literally means something/someone was raised in the air. Besides, like you said, some words in the Quran are given their own meaning despite meaning something different in Arabic.
Yahya = John ??? the meaning of Yahya is different from what John means.
Yahya is closer to the Hebrew name for John = Yahanan. In Hebrew it means "God is generous", what does Yahya mean?
Also Thalut = Saul and Zjalut = Goliath is in my opinion very confusing
And their prophet said to them "God has sent Saul to you as a king." They said "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said "God has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." God grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. (2247)
There was a man of Benjamin whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, son of Zeror, son of Becorath, son of Aphiah, a Benjaminite, a man of wealth. And he had a son whose name was Saul, a handsome young man. There was not a man among the people of Israel more handsome than he. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people. (1 Samuel 91-2)
Do you see how prior scriptures help the use of the names make a lot more sense because of the context of the events? Edit while it might seem like a contradiction that the Quran says that he was not given an abundance of wealth, and the Jewish scripture says that his father was wealthy, the likelihood is that Saul was very young, likely so young that he was not eligible to receive his inheritance from his father. This would be the reason why the people in the Quran did not want him to be king.
ps. I don't know if Ibrahim and Yusuf have meanings in Arabic and if the arabic meanings corresponds with the english meaning of Abraham and Joseph, would be a nice study.
Agreed. )
-Joel
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Salam, Peace,
Peace,
I understand what you are saying. There is much that has to be undone in terms of separating the hadith from the Quran.
True, separating the truth from falsehood is an obligation.
But don't make a bigger mistake by separating the Quran from its place among the other revealed texts. Maybe it is easier for me to see because I don't have the baggage of the hadiths to get rid of, but the Quran cannot properly be understood in any other way than as a part of what was revealed to Moses, to the prophets, and to Jesus.
-Joel
But here you should apply the same methodology as you do for hadith. In this regard you should first precisely define what I have underlined above.
What is for you "other revealed texts"?Thanks
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Peace,
I understand what you are saying. There is much that has to be undone in terms of separating the hadith from the Quran. But don't make a bigger mistake by separating the Quran from its place among the other revealed texts. Maybe it is easier for me to see because I don't have the baggage of the hadiths to get rid of, but the Quran cannot properly be understood in any other way than as a part of what was revealed to Moses, to the prophets, and to Jesus.
-Joel
You have nailed it. Exactly, separate Qur'an from hadith. The Bible IS hadith.We must separate Qur'an from the Bible.
If there are some inspired words in the bible amongst other thins that are whatever they are but not inspired, so there many inspired words in the hadiths, no less than in the Bible. In fact, there are sublime hadiths that melt the heart. The problem is exactly the same as the Bible, the hadith as a collection is a heterogeneous one, in which the best is mixed with the worst and the mediocre. Hadiths taken as a unit and bible taken as a unit are a figment.
In order to get something out of them one must undo that unit and take every single piece on its merits. And that is more easily done with hadith than with the bible, because the units of the bible themselves are not homogeneous as to quality, authenticity or content. Some may be better than others, but the whole offers room for doubt as to its soundness.
So no way of putting the Qur'an on a level with the Bible. The Bible, at best, is on a level with hadith.
This of course I say as one convinced of the veracity of the Qur'an.
Salaam
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What is for you "other revealed texts"?
Thanks
The Torah and Gospel.
You have nailed it. Exactly, separate Qur'an from hadith. The Bible IS hadith.We must separate Qur'an from the Bible.
If there are some inspired words in the bible amongst other thins that are whatever they are but not inspired, so there many inspired words in the hadiths, no less than in the Bible.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
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Salaam sun
Read all chaprer 3 (AAl Imran ) then read 19 (MAryam)
Theres no prove that theres are 2 Isa and 2 MAryam.. thats what the ibiBLIST think...
its a shame to see self called Quransits giving so descartinh islam hadith and taking Catholic hadith to say AQ is Wrong &So for you theres only INGIL AND TAWRAT? what about ISa Upanishads? Its also a sacred religious text.. if you read AQ and like to compere to the Darkeness hadiths of the Bible you should read also and compere the Hindu texts
AQ is complete, detailed, simple, and Wordf God
The rest i dont trust, ive pessad more than 10 years in search for Bible Caracters.. what i found is a SALADAQ is complete, no need to be analized on the "light" tempt, of thge bible, thats too do the same as our Ancestors, and its not what AQ comand US
Salaam, have a nice week
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Salaam sun
Read all chaprer 3 (AAl Imran ) then read 19 (MAryam)
I have. Many times.
Theres no prove that theres are 2 Isa and 2 MAryam.. thats what the ibiBLIST think...
its a shame to see self called Quransits giving so descartinh islam hadith and taking Catholic hadith to say AQ is Wrong &There is one Isa al Masih, there are TWO Miriams. One is the sister of Moses, the other is the mother of Jesus. I never said Quran is wrong. On the contrary, I am upholding it by insisting that there be no distinction between messengers. Abraham, Moses, the prophets, Jesus, and Mohammed.
So for you theres only INGIL AND TAWRAT? what about ISa Upanishads? Its also a sacred religious text.. if you read AQ and like to compere to the Darkeness hadiths of the Bible you should read also and compere the Hindu texts
AQ is complete, detailed, simple, and Wordf God
The rest i dont trust, ive pessad more than 10 years in search for Bible Caracters.. what i found is a SALADUpanishads are not quoted in the Quran. You are comparing apples to oranges there. Quran is complete, but Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel, does it not? Salads are good for you, you should eat them. In all seriousness, prior revelation is a different style than the Quran. It takes getting used to - just like me getting used to the style of the Quran took about a year of reading it.
AQ is complete, no need to be analized on the "light" tempt, of thge bible, thats too do the same as our Ancestors, and its not what AQ comand US
Quran is complete, and confirms prior revelation. It is possible to misinterpret Quran if you are not familiar with prior revelation.
Salaam, have a nice week
Peace.
-Joel -
The Torah and Gospel.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
First things first.
The Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, is divided into three parts (1) the five books of the Torah ("teaching" or "law", comprising the origins of the Israelite nation, its laws and its covenant with the God of Israel; (2) the Nevi'im ("prophets", containing the historic account of ancient Israel and Judah focusing on conflicts between the Israelites and other nations, and conflicts among Israelites ? specifically, struggles between believers in "the Lord God" and believers in foreign gods, and the criticism of unethical and unjust behavior of Israelite elites and rulers; and (3) the Ketuvim ("writings" poetic and philosophical works such as the Psalms and the Book of Job
The Christian Bible is divided into two parts. The first is called the Old Testament, containing the (minimum) 39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and the second portion is called the New Testament, containing a set of 27 books.
Do you think when ever AQ refers to tawrat and Injeel it refers to these 39 + 27 books?
regards
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The Torah and Gospel.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
No, man, they are not quoted. You are running away with your imagination. The Qur'an speaks of prople who, seemingly also show up in the bible, that is not quotation. God does not quote anybody. No, do not make fun of us.
Either you believe in the Qur'an or you don't. If you do believe, then you CANNOT say that God is quoting somebody be it coincidental with what anybody might said, or not coincidental, God does not quote, unless he himself says He is quoting. and then, when He would quote, surly not out of any writing or ppurported wrting but if His own total knowledge.
I cannot believe that somebody who says things like these reallyb elieves in the Qur'an. You want to use the Qur'an to get unsuspecting muslims to swallow a camel called the Bible, that is what it seems to me.
The bible is hadith on a level at best with the hadith of the muslim tradition, not one notch higher.
Salaam
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Do you think when ever AQ refers to tawrat and Injeel it refers to these 39 + 27 books?
regards
Peace Herbman,
The Hebrew word Torah simply means "teaching/instruction". While some Jews believe that the only way to refer to the Jewish scripture as the TaNaK (Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim), the word Torah is often synonymous with all instruction given to the Jews from God. Very often, what is in the prophets is a correction to incorrect or corrupt applications of the Torah, sometimes altering the letter of what was said in order to maintain the core instruction in righteousness. The Quran does the same thing. It does not match the commands of the Torah letter-for-letter, but it confirms the central message and alters what needs to be altered. As the Quran says, it does not change anything without bringing something better. But if you do not know what the previous commands were, how can you properly understand what was altered by God and why?
To explain my view of the relationship of the Gospel (Injil) to the New Testament would take more space and time than either you or I probably would want in this particular thread. Maybe another thread another time. I'm currently working on going through the entire Quran and annotating it with quotes, concepts, and allusions to prior revelation so a reader of the Quran can see how the Quran can both be complete and yet built upon the history of God's dealings with the Jews and the disciples of Jesus. Will I absolutely say that the New Testament is, letter-for-letter, the Injil mentioned in the Quran? Not without some qualification or explanation. But I think these conspiracy theories about forged texts and documents and switching the true Torah and Gospel for a false one is ridiculous. I've seen the manuscript evidence. I've seen how they analyzed the handwriting, comparing it to non-religious texts (personal letters, inventories, etc) from a particular time period in order to determine the age of the handwriting. I've studied the manuscripts with variant readings. There is simply no way that a reasonable person can believe that those texts are not the same texts that were around at the time of Mohammed.
I think the problem with this is two-fold. First, some of the people here who are insisting on Quran Alone divorced from God's dealings with Jews and Nazarenes is because of current ethnic tensions and foreign policy decisions in the middle east between Arabs and Jews backed by America. I get it. My country sucks. They've screwed the Palestinians, their rhetoric about Islam being evil and trying to convert them to Christianity, all the while giving Orthodox Jews a pass is just plain wrong. But that is another issue. People need to stop bringing their FEELINGS about these things to discussions about the Quran. Second, those who have to deal with hadithists are in difficult position if they admit what I'm saying is true, because it would be too easy then for a traditional Muslim to say that the same logic applies against the Quran Alone arguments. Frankly, that logic would not work. It is a very simple thing to show that there is no comparison between hadith and prior revelation in Torah and Gospel. Nonetheless, I understand the apprehension. But again, these two issues have nothing to do with what I'm saying. They are simply the emotional baggage and fears that get in the way of having a reaxsonable and logical discussion.
Think about it. This discussion, and related ones on other threads, are clogging up this forum. It is clearly an emotional issue for some. I wish they would simply think about why their emotions are so strongly against what I'm saying when there really isn't any good argument against it.
Make sense?
Peace,
Joel -
The Torah and Gospel.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
Salaam Joel,
I believe that AlInjeel is not Gospel.
As per 33 only AlTawraat was sent down not AlInjeel, as per 546 AlInjeel was given to 'Eisa son of Maryam unlike AlTawraat.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Here are a few posts to look at. Question have you actually read the prior revelation to know whether or not the Quran quotes it?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16997.msg223836#msg223836
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599077.msg222545#msg222545
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602327.msg282475#msg282475
These posts are hardly comprehensive. I'm currently working on all of the connections and will make them available once I'm done. But this will take a few more months.
-Joel
No, man, they are not quoted. You are running away with your imagination. The Qur'an speaks of prople who, seemingly also show up in the bible, that is not quotation. God does not quote anybody. No, do not make fun of us.
Either you believe in the Qur'an or you don't. If you do believe, then you CANNOT say that God is quoting somebody be it coincidental with what anybody might said, or not coincidental, God does not quote, unless he himself says He is quoting. and then, when He would quote, surly not out of any writing or ppurported wrting but if His own total knowledge.
I cannot believe that somebody who says things like these reallyb elieves in the Qur'an. You want to use the Qur'an to get unsuspecting muslims to swallow a camel called the Bible, that is what it seems to me.
The bible is hadith on a level at best with the hadith of the muslim tradition, not one notch higher.
Salaam
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just an example
quote from wiki
Solomon's sinsAccording to 1 Kings 114 Solomon's "wives turned his heart after other gods", their own national deities, to whom Solomon built temples, thus incurring divine anger and retribution in the form of the division of the kingdom after Solomon's death. (1 Kings 119-13)
1 Kings 11 describes Solomon's descent into idolatry, particularly his turning after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites. In Deuteronomy 1716-17, a king is commanded not to multiply horses or wives, neither greatly multiply to himself gold or silver. Solomon sins in all three of these areas. Solomon collects 666 talents of gold each year, (1 Kings 1014) a huge amount of money for a small nation like Israel. Solomon gathers a large number of horses and chariots and even brings in horses from Egypt. Just as Deuteronomy 17 warns, collecting horses and chariots takes Israel back to Egypt. Finally, Solomon marries foreign women, and these women turn Solomon to other gods.
According to 1 Kings 119-13, it was because of these sins that "the Lord punishes Solomon by tearing the kingdom in two"
And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the LORD commanded. Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.
Islamic traditionMain article Islamic view of Solomon
In contrast to the Christian tradition (taken from the Hebrew readings of the books of Kings and Chronicles) that Solomon (Sulayman) fell into idolatry in his declining years, Islam denies that any such event took place, nor that Solomon ever turned away from Allah in any way prior to his death and views him as famed throughout the lands for his wisdom and fair judgments."And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the scripture threw away the book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know. And they followed what the devils gave out falsely of magic of the reign of Solomon; for Solomon did not disbelieve but the devils disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down at Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut, but neither of these two (angles) taught anyone (such things) until they had said we are only for trial, so don't disbelieve. And from them (magicians) people learn that through which they would cause separation between a person and his spouse, but they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's leave; and they learn that which harms them rather than profits them. And indeed they knew that its practitioner would have no share in the Hereafter. And how bad indeed was that for which they sold their own selves if they but knew" (2101-2).
King Solomon was also a prophet and a messenger from Allah. He was the youngest son of the Prophet David (Dawud). King Solomon was a talented man with versatile gifts, and so his father had made him his heir. After the death of Dawud he ascended the throne of Judia on account of his sagacity, power of judgement, right understanding, and spiritual insight. The Qur'an says "And We verily gave knowledge to Dawud and Sulayman and they said praise be to God (Allah) Who has preferred us above many of his believing servants". (2715)
I can give you other examples e.g. Lot but I won't.
About what you are saying regarding jews and arabs.
I don't care about the origine of people what I do care is about their deeds, if you want my point of view regarding Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I do judge with what The God gave me, and I see an oppressor vs an opressed, that's it.
peace -
The wiki is crap. The actions of Solomon's son caused the split. The book of Ecclesiastes explains Solomon's actions in 1 Kings 11. See 3831-33. He enjoyed the wealth of his empire more than he should have, and longer than he should have, but he repented. This does not contradict the account from the Jewish scriptures.
Peace,
Joel