The truth behind the manucaturing of Apple, HP, Dell and Nokia
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Salam brothers and sisters.
This is a podcast I listened to the other day and was deeply concerned about what the reporter was uncovering. Mike Daisey a This American Life reporter is telling us about his journey from an Apple lover to an enlightened technology consumer. He travels all the way to Foxconn campus in Shenzhen China, where Apple, HP, Dell and Nokia have their biggest manufacturing. He interviews the workers and here is what he finds out. Its a 40 minutes long story by a good storyteller.http//www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory
I think this is really important information about how these products are made, as we all have or at least had one of these brands and so also supported this kind of human abusing. As consumers in this society of consumerism where we are almost stuck, the least we can do is to think about how things are done and what we should and should not support by what we buy.
These huge manufacturers care only about money, our money. They make millions of mobile phones, Ipads and computers every year depending on what people want. That may sound good but we who read the Quran know better, we know that what people want is not necessarily what is good for people, we have satan on our path deluding us in many ways. Media advertising which has even entered schools, temples, churches and even our bedrooms is one of the biggest weapons of satan. There he suggests to us a way of life thats far away from Gods way of life, he makes stuff important, he makes worldly life seem so important so we forget what we are here to do, so we forget about God. He also make us think that we have to have what everybody else have, he fool us to think if everybody has it then its good. Believers dont make satan win this game! Dont let him fool you to think these stuff are important! They are made by slaves, Quran encourages us to free the slaves. Dont buy these products! By buying them you indirectly say " I dont care about peoples work conditions, I want to have my precious Iphone". Thats egoism, thats hedonism. As muslims we should know better. Foxconn and Apple are just one example of many. Slavery is not extincted, its just covered with other labels.
Here is another article about Foxconn. In this article you can read about how everybody knows about this slavery but dont do anything to stop it. Foxconn chooses to set nets around their buildings to stop suicides... instead of make it better for the workers...http//online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704026204575267603576594936.html?mod=wsj_india_main
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Shalom Aleikhom,
Thanks for sharing it. Heard the first podcast. Its sad how slavery still exists and we all simply ignore it.
Peace
---------- Student of Allah -
Salam.
We can not be questioned about what we do not know, but we have responsibility from the moment we get the knowledge. The agressive massive advertising compains, word of moth stories and recommendations we are subjected to makes it so difficult to know anything about the truth.
But when we get to know that and not do anything about it, continou living our lives happy with what we got of these stuff then we become bad people.
Boycott them and spread the knowladge.
Peace! -
including Barbie (Mattel toys) and hundreds of other products.
This is not 'slaverly' in its truest sense (such as the slavery which was widely practiced in US and Middle East) where human are considered as 'assets'/'property' of other human and can be sold / traded as items.
The situation is similar to 'serfdom' in medieval europe. Where the 'serfs' were those without any assets/property and the economical/social system were being designed to always keep them in 'serf' status by forbidding them to own any parcel of the lands.
China is within their 'early period' of re-industrialization.
The labor earn their wage, albeit it's very low wage. and they don't/cannot own any property/assets as all land/property belong to the state. Thus the only way for them to earn more wealth is through more work.The main 'culprit' for this is NOT HP, Apple, Mattel etc..
Many of the blame should be put to the China government.
As they themselves allow those thing to happened to their own people.They should protect the labor by imposing certain regulation such as minimum wage (and it should be high enough and not just meet their daily needs), minimum work environment / condition, rights for labor to organize themselves in labor union, proper health insurance, right to perform strike etc..
China (as a state) is the RICHEST government in the world today.. with 3 Trillion USD worth of assets in their reserves. As comparison USA has merely 143 Billion USD of assets in their reserves.
Apparently the state of China's richness doesn't correspond well with their people (general) welfare.
As thus this is the case where the government is 'enslaving' their own people.Salam / Peace
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author=Jafar link=topic=9603478.msg292662#msg292662 date=1328272330
This is not 'slaverly' in its truest sense (such as the slavery which was widely practiced in US and Middle East) where human are considered as 'assets'/'property' of other human and can be sold / traded as items.
The situation is similar to 'serfdom' in medieval europe. Where the 'serfs' were those without any assets/property and the economical/social system were being designed to always keep them in 'serf' status by forbidding them to own any parcel of the lands.
What is slavery in its true sense? Slavery gives the right to some to own others, have them as property, do whatever they want with people in order to safe their own interests. Does this counts only when we are talking about slaves like the famous Kunte Kinte? I think we should consider slavery in its essence. To make somebody in need of you so he/she can not decide what to do with their own life, you can do that by setting people in debt like the one the majority of the westeners are stuck in or let big companies wolf the peoples resources and consequently "force" them to work for any wage and any conditions just to make some living.
China is within their 'early period' of re-industrialization.
The labor earn their wage, albeit it's very low wage. and they don't/cannot own any property/assets as all land/property belong to the state. Thus the only way for them to earn more wealth is through more work.Do you mean its ok for China to take such measures against their own people because its important to re-industrialize and make up on the western countries?
The main 'culprit' for this is NOT HP, Apple, Mattel etc..
Many of the blame should be put to the China government.
As they themselves allow those thing to happened to their own people.They should protect the labor by imposing certain regulation such as minimum wage (and it should be high enough and not just meet their daily needs), minimum work environment / condition, rights for labor to organize themselves in labor union, proper health insurance, right to perform strike etc..
China (as a state) is the RICHEST government in the world today.. with 3 Trillion USD worth of assets in their reserves. As comparison USA has merely 143 Billion USD of assets in their reserves.
Apparently the state of China's richness doesn't correspond well with their people (general) welfare.
As thus this is the case where the government is 'enslaving' their own people.I agree that the Chinese gov. should make it harder for investors to make people work in slavelike situations, but, talking about the Chinese gov. makes it far mor harder and more complicated to take any actions, to do something we actually can do if we are many enough! Governements and people sitting in big chairs dont care about small people suffering for living. many of them want to appear richer and stronger for the world in order to gain more power. They let big companies (with the same goals) destroy their land and use people and nature for their own favor, nothing else.
We shall not underestimate the power of the people nor shall we underestimate the damage those big companies are doing in order to become bigger and stronger.You are talking about rights to the workers and how governements should protect the labour. In China its punishable to even join a labour union.
I see it as my duty as muslim to take responsibility for what I consume. I realise Im too small to change the Chinese gov. but Im not small enough to know that products manufactured this wayt are not compatible with Gods laws. In the Quran God uses the word AKL as eat and also as consume, ex.
429
You, you those who believed, do not eat/annihilate/consume your properties/possessions between you with the falsehood except that (it) be commercial trade/buying and selling on acceptance/approval from you, and do not kill your selves, that God was/is with you merciful.another example
6111-124. I understand AKL that is mentioned 3 times here as consume, becouse there is nothin before or after talking about any food, the ayas discuss rather a way of being and a bunch of choices in life.
My conclusion is what we buy, what we consume or even make living of matter for what way we chose in life, and thats either a way that brings us closer or further to God.
Peace!
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author=Jafar link=topic=9603478.msg292662#msg292662 date=1328272330
What is slavery in its true sense? Slavery gives the right to some to own others, have them as property, do whatever they want with people in order to safe their own interests. Does this counts only when we are talking about slaves like the famous Kunte Kinte? I think we should consider slavery in its essence. To make somebody in need of you so he/she can not decide what to do with their own life, you can do that by setting people in debt like the one the majority of the westeners are stuck in or let big companies wolf the peoples resources and consequently "force" them to work for any wage and any conditions just to make some living.
Do you mean its ok for China to take such measures against their own people because its important to re-industrialize and make up on the western countries?
Nope it's not ok, what I'm saying is They're undergoing things which happened in the 'western countries' around 100 years ago. And they're learning it now..
This phenomenon is known as "Wage Slavery".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slaveryAnd speaking of "Wage Slavery"... there are lot of "Wage Slavery" happening in the Middle East too!!
The phillipinos, indonesian, sri lankan, indians etc.. working in Saudi Arabia or other gulf countries as maid, or other low laborer for example. They're earning FAR LESS than the chinese labor in Shenzhen ! and can be as low as <$100 a month.
And more often they're also being (Sexually and non sexually) abused by their employer..
For example Saudi couple "hammer 24 nails" into Sri Lankan maid
http//www.reuters.com/article/2010/08/26/us-srilanka-maid-idUSTRE67P17420100826What do you think we should do for them??
Boycott the Arab's oil?????I agree that the Chinese gov. should make it harder for investors to make people work in slavelike situations, but, talking about the Chinese gov. makes it far mor harder and more complicated to take any actions, to do something we actually can do if we are many enough! Governements and people sitting in big chairs dont care about small people suffering for living. many of them want to appear richer and stronger for the world in order to gain more power. They let big companies (with the same goals) destroy their land and use people and nature for their own favor, nothing else.
We shall not underestimate the power of the people nor shall we underestimate the damage those big companies are doing in order to become bigger and stronger.Yup it's the Chinese Govt that all of those 'protest' should be aiming for...
And only the Chinese Govt can solve this problem.. no other choice.. it's not simple perhaps.. but it's the only way to go.
Those 'companies' are just taking advantage of the situation..Again back to the 'wage slavery' that happening closer by in Middle East..
What do you think we should do for them??
Boycott the Arab's oil?????And those 'wage slave' in middle east are mostly being employed not by the 'big companies' but by 'small companies' and 'common household'.
You are talking about rights to the workers and how governements should protect the labour. In China its punishable to even join a labour union.
Yes it is, and that need to change, by putting pressures to the Chinese government..
And / or educate the chinese labor regarding their rights..The same with those 'low laborer' in middle east..
They must be well protected by the labor law too..
And they need to be educated about their rights..I see it as my duty as muslim to take responsibility for what I consume. I realise Im too small to change the Chinese gov. but Im not small enough to know that products manufactured this wayt are not compatible with Gods laws.
My conclusion is what we buy, what we consume or even make living of matter for what way we chose in life, and thats either a way that brings us closer or further to God.
The way we treat other human beings shall be the main criterion between good or evil.
Nobody is ever too small to change things.. but again the core of the problems lies within Chinese Government AND for the case of low laborer in middle eastern countries, also within Middle East countries government.Salam / Peace
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Salam,
Nope it's not ok, what I'm saying is They're undergoing things which happened in the 'western countries' around 100 years ago. And they're learning it now..
This phenomenon is known as "Wage Slavery".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slaveryIm aware of what China is going through and why they allow wage slavory. Im just saying that doesnt justify whats happening. In general I dont think modernisation is the goal of humanity as most of the worlds governements think. I would rather see people growing their own food and taking care of themselvs in small societies far from corruption.
And speaking of "Wage Slavery"... there are lot of "Wage Slavery" happening in the Middle East too!!
The phillipinos, indonesian, sri lankan, indians etc.. working in Saudi Arabia or other gulf countries as maid, or other low laborer for example. They're earning FAR LESS than the chinese labor in Shenzhen ! and can be as low as <$100 a month.
And more often they're also being (Sexually and non sexually) abused by their employer..
For example Saudi couple "hammer 24 nails" into Sri Lankan maid
http//www.reuters.com/article/2010/08/26/us-srilanka-maid-idUSTRE67P17420100826What do you think we should do for them??
Boycott the Arab's oil?????I know about slavery in the Middle East by rich oil countries. And I feel as bad for them as I feel for the Chinese labour. I have relatives living in UAE and I never had any desire for visiting them in their horrible country (thats boycotting)
U are asking about boycotting arab oil in a sarcastic way but I think that would be the best thing humanity would do for itself. I dont have a car and I refuse to buy one. Im greatfull I live in a city where I can walk or bike almost everywhere, even if its -10 degrees cold. When I travel I take train and/or busses, and I make all those choises consciously. I think the world would be a better place without oil.Yup it's the Chinese Govt that all of those 'protest' should be aiming for...
And only the Chinese Govt can solve this problem.. no other choice.. it's not simple perhaps.. but it's the only way to go.
Those 'companies' are just taking advantage of the situation..So why let them take advantage of the situation? Why not telling them as consumers of their products "look, we dont want your stuff if you dont make it better for your workers, where ever you are!" If you had a friend who takes advantages others weaknesses wouldent you tell him to stop? Or even stop being friends with him? Or would you excuse him becouse he is not the bad guy, he is just taking advantage of other peoples weanesses?
The Chinese gov.is a corrupt one just as the oil rich Arabic governements, who only care about staying in power. The same thing is happening all around the world in all countris that aim to become modern and catch up with western countries at the expense of the poor and the needy.Again back to the 'wage slavery' that happening closer by in Middle East..
What do you think we should do for them??
Boycott the Arab's oil?????And those 'wage slave' in middle east are mostly being employed not by the 'big companies' but by 'small companies' and 'common household'.
Yes it is, and that need to change, by putting pressures to the Chinese government..
And / or educate the chinese labor regarding their rights..The same with those 'low laborer' in middle east..
They must be well protected by the labor law too..
And they need to be educated about their rights..So how do you think thats gonna happen if nobody cares enough? If you listen to the podcost about Foxconn you will see that people stop work around the age of 30 becouse of the damages on their bodies after years and years of doing the same movement day in and day out up to 15 hours a day. Thats not unique but that tells us how little the owners of Foxconn care about the workers health they dont even shift the workers from place to another to avoid such injuries coused only becouse nobody cares enough. The capitalists set the rules, thats why its called capitalism. When a capitalist only cares about lower costs and bigger volumes then the rules become ugly.
True that gov. make laws and that might protect the poor or labour in this case. But we can not lay back untill gov. start to act. Why not do the minor little thing we can actually do? I know you dont think its right whats happening in China or other places, but I dont understand how you can not see the huge role those capitalists have in this matter.
Peace!
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Peace!
Perhaps a step in the right direction would be for the electronics market to emulate the coffee market and institute some kind of credible "fair trade" branding. That way consumers can support decent conditions and wages for the factory workers if they care enough and don't mind paying a little more for their gadgets.
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I've visited Shenzhen many times and I know what's happening there.. the same case for those 'low laborer' in Middle East oil rich countries I know their plight too..
It's not fair to blame the Taiwanese originated "Foxconn" specifically as they themselves also has 'low margin'. Check out their financial report as they're publicly traded company.
Let's simulate what shall happened.
Pressuring the "Brand Owners" -> They cutoff their contract with Foxconn -> Foxconn lay off thousands of laborer -> thousands of chinese laborer out of work.
Hmm and then what?
Thousands of chinese laborer work as maid and low laborer in Middle East?
That will be a 'worse hell' than before... Chinese low laborer in Shenzen on average still earn $200 a month with overtime they can make $300-$400 a month, in middle east as maid they shall only made $100 a month with much worse working condition as it's working all around the clock and no overtime. And as we can see from the news.. many of them constantly receive physical abuse or even rape.Let's see the other option
China adopted more labor friendly policy -> Foxconn need to renegotiate their contract demanding higher price due to higher cost -> Brand owners has two choices A accept the higher cost and increase their selling price or B seek out cheaper "Sweat Shops" elsewhere and maintain the selling price.
Most likely Brand owners will choose A, and as an effect the price of those iPads, Barbie Dolls etc.. will be higher..
Some might choose option B.. if it's available ... most likely it will be Vietnam or Philippines as it's close by..
As thus need to ensure the Vietnamese and Philippines government also enforcing "Labor Friendly Policy" as well to avoid the whole cycle repeating itself.
Addressing and pressuring the government is the most effective method.. and that includes the Middle east government. or any other government in the world. To ensure all laborer are being protected.
Again 'our disagreement' is only on 'methodology' and not the 'objective'...
From my POV the plight of those "Low Laborer" in middle east is still far worse than the "plight" of those "Low Laborer" in Shenzhen.
Salam / Peace
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Salam Ala
Since you mentioned UAE / Dubai, I've found this entry in Wikipedia.. which again agree with my hypothesis regarding 'low laborer' in middle east.
Lowest wages
In the 21st century Dubai, employers pay low wages to many workers?often less than ?120 ($180) a month, for a 60-hour work week. Often 'employment contracts', if they are given, "are not worth the paper they are written on," and collective bargaining and trade unions are illegal in Dubai. It all starts in their home countries, often India or Bangladesh, where local recruitment agents promise them high salaries and generous overtime payments. In these workers' home countries they are charged a "visa" or "transit" fee, averaging 200,000 taka, or ?2,000 ($2,980), which in these home countries is supposed to be illegal. Extended families often contribute by taking out loans or selling ancestral lands to raise the money needed. Families see the money paid as an investment, since they believe the promises made to them about future wages. While such high returns are occasionally possible, this is increasingly less so today. Nowadays it generally takes the entire 2-3 year contract for them just to pay back that fee and break even.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
Worse thing happened closer to 'home'...
Salam / Peace
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Perhaps a step in the right direction would be for the electronics market to emulate the coffee market and institute some kind of credible "fair trade" branding. That way consumers can support decent conditions and wages for the factory workers if they care enough and don't mind paying a little more for their gadgets.
Salam.
thats what I am talking about fare trade branding is not a governemental movement. These are some organisations coming togather and making agreements between producers and consumers that benefit both. That could be a better solution for all.
here you can read more about faretrade and what they achieved http//www.fairtrade.net/?id=361&L=0Peace!
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Salam.
thats what I am talking about fare trade branding is not a governemental movement. These are some organisations coming togather and making agreements between producers and consumers that benefit both. That could be a better solution for all.
here you can read more about faretrade and what they achieved http//www.fairtrade.net/?id=361&L=0Peace!
Interesting... but again it doesn't address those 'low laborer' in middle east.. which are living a much worse life than those in Shenzhen... Any solution for them? Or you just don't care too much about them..
Salam / Peace
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quote author=Jafar link=topic=9603478.msg292762#msg292762 date=1328465989
I've visited Shenzhen many times and I know what's happening there.. the same case for those 'low laborer' in Middle East oil rich countries I know their plight too..
It's not fair to blame the Taiwanese originated "Foxconn" specifically as they themselves also has 'low margin'. Check out their financial report as they're publicly traded company.
o Foxconn which employs some 820,000 workers throughout China, is the world's largest electronics contract manufacturer by revenue. (http//online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704026204575267603576594936.html?mod=wsj_india_main)
In 2009 Foxconn or in the original name Hon Hai had $60 billion in revenue.
Terry Gou the chairmen of Foxconn is actually one of the richest people in the world.
I dont know what low margins make a company worlds biggest and the owners worlds richest?Let's simulate what shall happened.
Pressuring the "Brand Owners" -> They cutoff their contract with Foxconn -> Foxconn lay off thousands of laborer -> thousands of chinese laborer out of work.
Hmm and then what?
Thousands of chinese laborer work as maid and low laborer in Middle East?
That will be a 'worse hell' than before... Chinese low laborer in Shenzen on average still earn $200 a month with overtime they can make $300-$400 a month, in middle east as maid they shall only made $100 a month with much worse working condition as it's working all around the clock and no overtime. And as we can see from the news.. many of them constantly receive physical abuse or even rape.Let's see the other option
China adopted more labor friendly policy -> Foxconn need to renegotiate their contract demanding higher price due to higher cost -> Brand owners has two choices A accept the higher cost and increase their selling price or B seek out cheaper "Sweat Shops" elsewhere and maintain the selling price.
Most likely Brand owners will choose A, and as an effect the price of those iPads, Barbie Dolls etc.. will be higher..
Some might choose option B.. if it's available ... most likely it will be Vietnam or Philippines as it's close by..
As thus need to ensure the Vietnamese and Philippines government also enforcing "Labor Friendly Policy" as well to avoid the whole cycle repeating itself.
Addressing and pressuring the government is the most effective method.. and that includes the Middle east government. or any other government in the world. To ensure all laborer are being protected.
With respect to your opinion but I dont think those are the only ways. I dont think that its either arabic slavery or capitalist slavery. I think the capitalists like Apple and HP for example can put some pressure on their manufacturers to have better conditions for the workers, Foxconn or other manufacturers like them want to satisfy their clients. And for capitalists to take a step in the right direction (setting pressure on the manufacturing conditions) I think we consumers have to act because capitalists depend on us buying their stuff. We can not expect to have it all, we can not expect having advanced fun playthings to lower and lower prices and think that no one is getting hurt. So if we consumers accept that we can buy a Dell computer for a higher price and use it for 10 years istead of 5 or even less in order to make the capitalists make their job better then I think we can actually help them. There is nothing wrong in telling for example Apple that they should use their power of capital for the benefit of those who make the magic happen.
And about UAE you dont have to convince me that they are bad guys. I know that, I wish I knew how to help the workers there. Im talking about the manufacturers of electronics because I know that if I and others like me demand better conditions for workers by boycotting products then capitalists will demand better conditions for workers. They want to get our money and all we have to do is telling them "you can get my money but only if you provide me a product as I want it, in other words a fair manufactured, fair trade one"
Again 'our disagreement' is only on 'methodology' and not the 'objective'...
Sure!
From my POV the plight of those "Low Laborer" in middle east is still far worse than the "plight" of those "Low Laborer" in Shenzhen.
Agreed! But in the second case we can actually affect it. Low laborer in the Middle East is a much more difficult case to affect just by changing some little consumption habbits.
Peace!
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Interesting... but again it doesn't address those 'low laborer' in middle east.. which are living a much worse life than those in Shenzhen... Any solution for them? Or you just don't care too much about them..
Salam / Peace
Of course i care about them too! brickwall
I think your question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Just because I am trying to have som attention for the chinese workers who manufacture stuff we use everyday doesnt mean I dont care about others.
Your question is unpleasant. -
Of course i care about them too! brickwall
I think your question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Just because I am trying to have som attention for the chinese workers who manufacture stuff we use everyday doesnt mean I dont care about others.
Your question is unpleasant.My apology.. sometime 'things which are unpleasant' is very effective to act as a 'wake up call'.
I'm all ears to any solution / ideas that you might have to address those 'poor slaves in the middle east'.Salam / Peace
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My apology.. sometime 'things which are unpleasant' is very effective to act as a 'wake up call'.
I'm all ears to any solution / ideas that you might have to address those 'poor slaves in the middle east'.Salam,
I already gave my opinion about the people enslaved by the rich Arabic oil countries and what we can do for them in my previous posts, so please go back and read them carefully.
I think this last post of yours is nothing but argumentation for the sake of argumentation. That?s only time consuming and dividing.Peace!
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peace be upon you guys as well.
low wages would not be the same illicit gains no?
just like trading for a low price -
Salam everybody,
I have to share this new podcast about the apple factory. This is a retraction made by This American Life because they discovered many reported errors about the conditions there. Please listen ti this as well in order to get the right picture.
http//www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/460/retraction -
Salam everybody,
I have to share this new podcast about the apple factory. This is a retraction made by This American Life because they discovered many reported errors about the conditions there. Please listen ti this as well in order to get the right picture.
http//www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/460/retractionShalom Aleikhem,
I can't believe what happened !! Really ???!! Anyways, thanks for letting us know, thanks to you and "This American Life Podcast" for the honesty.
Peace
----------- Student of Allah