Cleavage and Verse 24:31
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I understand, but you can't really compare breasts with genitals as breasts aren't considered as such according to the verse and thus separate. Basically the basic section of the breast is still covered and in the west that is considered as covered breasts, thus I wanna know if wearing something like that is haram?
Like for example say an actress is told to wear a top in movie that would show her cleavage. Can she she do it? She has her breast covered as said, yet there is cleavage being shown? What is the case here?
Shalom Aleikhom,
I spoke about the genitals not to compare cleavage with genitals, but to share my views on the reasoning behind such designs of tops. I think it all depends on the "intent". Every low cut design shares the purpose of "trailer" of breasts. And "as for me personally", I do not find it ok to wear clothes designed for such attentions. When a person is supposed to draw a shawl over her cleavage, I do not see it as sanctioning partial exposing of cleavage.
I recognize flexibility of interpretations. However, compare the point of " put forth their shawls over their cleavage " to the point of "low cut tops for showing just little bit of cleavage ".
If the point of covering your cleavage is sexual and is an order from God, why would you even think of exposing it to the slightest degree "willingly" ? If you think about it on a deeper level, One Who is concerned about covering cleavage, would He not be concerned about covering breasts ? Anyways, it depends on you why you think a little bit of exposing is ok or not. I am of the opinion that if it didn't matter, it wouldn't make it into the Qur'an atleast.
Peace
----------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhom,
I spoke about the genitals not to compare cleavage with genitals, but to share my views on the reasoning behind such designs of tops. I think it all depends on the "intent". Every low cut design shares the purpose of "trailer" of breasts. And "as for me personally", I do not find it ok to wear clothes designed for such attentions. When a person is supposed to draw a shawl over her cleavage, I do not see it as sanctioning partial exposing of cleavage.
I recognize flexibility of interpretations. However, compare the point of " put forth their shawls over their cleavage " to the point of "low cut tops for showing just little bit of cleavage ".
If the point of covering your cleavage is sexual and is an order from God, why would you even think of exposing it to the slightest degree "willingly" ? If you think about it on a deeper level, One Who is concerned about covering cleavage, would He not be concerned about covering breasts ? Anyways, it depends on you why you think a little bit of exposing is ok or not. I am of the opinion that if it didn't matter, it wouldn't make it into the Qur'an atleast.
Peace
----------- Student of AllahThe problem here is that translation of the Quran, it states "cleavage" when it better translates to "breasts" or "bosom" thus going by the meaning of breasts/bosom wouldn't the breast be covered and a bit of the middle (the cleavage) is being shown? Therefore with that in mind, is it a sin to show a bit of cleavage?
Also something to consider. Here are breasts fully covered
http//www.shirtsnob.com/pictures/max8way.jpgvs
Breasts covered but with a bit of cleavage showing
http//www.hairstyleswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/women-hairstyles3.jpgThe two aren't too different, with one only slightly more lower cut, but generally is covered. What is your say?
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The problem here is that translation of the Quran, it states "cleavage" when it better translates to "breasts" or "bosom" thus going by the meaning of breasts/bosom wouldn't the breast be covered and a bit of the middle (the cleavage) is being shown? Therefore with that in mind, is it a sin to show a bit of cleavage?
Shalom Aleikhom,
No it is partially exposed.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhom,
No it is partially exposed.
Peace
------------ Student of Allahbut then we gotta run into the definition of "Where do the breasts stop?" Cause they are attached via chest with the skin, so how far up would they stop as it unifies with the chest?
Basically what i'm getting at is, what does partly exposed mean if the breasts smoothly unify with the chest? So wouldn't a general coverage make sense with a bit of cleavage there? And i'm not talking sexually but rather other examples like if one is in a film and is asked to wear a top with a bit of cleavage. Is that a sin?
In fact if its about modesty, something like a bit of cleavage is seen a modest in western society (as long as its not overkill and goes all the way through and shows off way too much of it) so what is your take there?
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but then we gotta run into the definition of "Where do the breasts stop?" Cause they are attached via chest with the skin, so how far up would they stop as it unifies with the chest?
Basically what i'm getting at is, what does partly exposed mean if the breasts smoothly unify with the chest? So wouldn't a general coverage make sense with a bit of cleavage there? And i'm not talking sexually but rather other examples like if one is in a film and is asked to wear a top with a bit of cleavage. Is that a sin?
In fact if its about modesty, something like a bit of cleavage is seen a modest in western society (as long as its not overkill and goes all the way through and shows off way too much of it) so what is your take there?
Shalom Aleikhom,
As for me, it stops when there is no slope that can be measured. The picture you posted for example, leaves enough space of skin open for anyone to poke the breasts with a needle (on the exposed space). This alone demonstrates that the breasts are visible (partially).
East and West belongs to God. So no matter where I am, I would fear and cover, instead of partially exposing "just a little bit". Trust me, no matter which civilized society you run into, there is clear difference between "cleavage" and "chest".
By the way, are you going be be a film star ? D Curious
Peace
---------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhom,
As for me, it stops when there is no slope that can be measured. The picture you posted for example, leaves enough space of skin open for anyone to poke the breasts with a needle (on the exposed space). This alone demonstrates that the breasts are visible (partially).
East and West belongs to God. So no matter where I am, I would fear and cover, instead of partially exposing "just a little bit". Trust me, no matter which civilized society you run into, there is clear difference between "cleavage" and "chest".
By the way, are you going be be a film star ? Curious
Peace
---------- Student of AllahOh no, I haven't gotten into any films yet but just planning for the future ) Basically I wonder in regards to being given a shirt where the cleavage would be exposed in a film. Basically what i'm getting at is that the verse simply says "cover the breasts" which they are generally covered yet I wanna know if that rim or bit are not a sin to have out as long as its not overkill and stilll generally covered up.
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Oh no, I haven't gotten into any films yet but just planning for the future Basically I wonder in regards to being given a shirt where the cleavage would be exposed in a film. Basically what i'm getting at is that the verse simply says "cover the breasts" which they are generally covered yet I wanna know if that rim or bit are not a sin to have out as long as its not overkill and stilll generally covered up.
Shalom Aleikhom,
Best of luck with your career.
You see my friend. Sometimes, I go conservatively. When it says to cover, I make sure no body can point fingers. Otherwise, what is overkill for you may be fashionable for me. I take "breasts" in its entirety and apply cover fully. Because when you start partial uncovering, then remember that what is overkill for you may simply be "normal" for me.
By the way, do you have red eyes ?
Peace
----------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhom,
Best of luck with your career. )
You see my friend. Sometimes, I go conservatively. When it says to cover, I make sure no body can point fingers. Otherwise, what is overkill for you may be fashionable for me. I take "breasts" in its entirety and apply cover fully. Because when you start partial uncovering, then remember that what is overkill for you may simply be "normal" for me.
By the way, do you have red eyes ?
Peace
----------- Student of AllahI understand, but considering this feels like a grey area as its both covered and yet somehow isn't, would it be a sin? especially considering wearing a shirt in a movie that shows it.
regardless, no lol I don't have red eyes but I wear red eyes when I cosplay D (as well cleavage in regards to cosplaying too considering the anime or video game character one might cosplay P)
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Peace and welcome to the forum. Stay nerdy and proud.
Juyoob being translated as 'cleavage' is a severe extrapolation, imo. Do note that men, too, are to lower the gaze (2430), so I would have to disagree with this 'women should cater their dress-code to appease to the "short-comings" of the man' and such.
Intent is vital, if your intent is to get attention from men, etc, I don't think that's allowed. If it is for an acting role etc, I think that would be okay, as you are not doing it to get sexual attention, etc. I also think that some of the key terms in that verse are subjective for a reason, as the message is universal and timeless.
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Very interest exchange, thanks to all, indeed.
I think on the whole, though, I agree with Jack.
24.31 as to this question of how one should look at others, I think that it is adressed to each one.
Emil, in a thread I can't remember, said something to the point in this matter, men -and I add women- are directed as to what they should do to protect themselves from being tempted.
One must protect him(her)self, and females are directed, just as males to veil or lower their gaze.The part that is adressed to women only in 24.31 does not have anything to do with tempting men. The Qur'an does not say so, and on the other hand says that the more conscious attirement is to be observed in from of men and women, with the exceptions mentioned, so the idea that protecting men from temptation would be a matter for women is not there.
On the other hand, as Jack says, that less conscious attirement is not detailed nor exact limits for are given. Women are enjoined not to what has been translated as "display" (yubdina). To display is different from just dressing in a certain way. Display is something intended.
I think it is not warranted at all to interpret this aya as a direction to prevent sexual temptation. That may be addressed when females as well as males are told to lower their gaze. The intent of saying "not display" is precisely that not show off, forget about vanity, however much it may be praised as a "feminine" trait. If you have jewellery, do not display, if you have a gorgeous bossom, do not display. That is not sexual necessarily, but it is vain and encourages jealousy amonst women.
So, concerning that cleavage, I think that what our sister should do is what she knows is respectful for herself. That is, I would follow what is self-respect. Other than that, may be it is more a question as to whether there should be some limits to acting as a profession and which those limits should be, and as to that I think I would be as lost as anybody could be.
Salaam
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Salam everybody,
Jiim-Ya-Ba = to cut out a collar of a shirt, opening at the neck and bosom of a shirt, an opening in a shirt (e.g. where the head goes through or the sleeve), pocket (derived because Arabs often carry things within the bosom of a shirt), bosom, heart, place of entrance for a land/country, hollowed.
jayb n.m. (pl. juyub) - 2431, 2712, 2832
I totally agree with Jack. Intentions are really important. I would not wear those tops in the picture simply because I know it would take some attention considering that all men are not muslims and therefore they dont know what God is ordering them to do. I also know that if I ask myself honestly why I would have a top with cleavage the answer would probably be to look nicer, to look like everybody else (living in Sweden ) ) simply to be able to compare myself to other beautiful girls and think Im not less beautiful, in case Im one of them.
It was hard for me to accept the way of clothing as I understood it from the Quran. Especially because I really loved to make my self pretty, I loved putting on make up and make my eyes look bigger, and using accessories gladly the big colorful ones -* because I love colors. I also liked to have a little cleavage or maybe some tighter top or a shorter skirt, all for the same reason. Men think women do all that to make them look, but in fact women do that to compete with each other (my experience). The ideals that is being showed to us since childhood are beautiful women, those who take care of themselves in that shallow way. Maybe I am exaggerating now but around 98% of all women in TV are pretty, we don't even have to talk about magazines and advertising posters. You hardly see an overweight woman although there are many of them, you don't really see woman in bad shape unless they are "low class" or suffering from a disease or simply don't belong to our culture. All that big clothing, make up, accessories, hair care products industries are fed on us trying to catch up to those role models we are almost forced to have. As long as I was stuck in this culture and this way of thinking of comparing myself with others superficially I simply couldn't do as the Quran is telling me, I tried because I wanted God to be happy with me but still I always found ways to compromise with my faith. Until i started seeing what culture I was influenced by. I dont really care about being pretty to compare myself with others anymore and it feels wonderful. It feels wonderful because I dont have to use high heels although that hurt, I dont need to spend so much time every morning putting colors on my face, I dont need to go with that non ending "beautification" struggle and most important of all I am happy with myself because I do as God is telling me to do and thats freedom. I agree with Student of Allah cover means only cover not cover partially, or cover a little. I can not say that I am extreme in my covering as God is telling us he didint give us the Quran to make life harder for us, I still want to be able to move and be recognizable
This was just my story, I thought that maybe a female view is needed as all answers came from males (guess ) )
Wish you an enlightened future sun (we all need that ) -
24.31 as to this question of how one should look at others, I think that it is adressed to each one.
Emil, in a thread I can't remember, said something to the point in this matter, men -and I add women- are directed as to what they should do to protect themselves from being tempted.
One must protect him(her)self, and females are directed, just as males to veil or lower their gaze.The part that is adressed to women only in 24.31 does not have anything to do with tempting men. The Qur'an does not say so, and on the other hand says that the more conscious attirement is to be observed in from of men and women, with the exceptions mentioned, so the idea that protecting men from temptation would be a matter for women is not there.
On the other hand, as Jack says, that less conscious attirement is not detailed nor exact limits for are given. Women are enjoined not to what has been translated as "display" (yubdina). To display is different from just dressing in a certain way. Display is something intended.
I think it is not warranted at all to interpret this aya as a direction to prevent sexual temptation. That may be addressed when females as well as males are told to lower their gaze. The intent of saying "not display" is precisely that not show off, forget about vanity, however much it may be praised as a "feminine" trait. If you have jewellery, do not display, if you have a gorgeous bossom, do not display. That is not sexual necessarily, but it is vain and encourages jealousy amonst women.
That is an answer based on a Quranic understanding in my opinion as I got to the same conclusion after reading and thinking about those ayas.
Thank you Huruf.Peace!
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lol really??
well I really could care less if other women wear nice jewellery and I think your reasoning is fault and even offensive towards women like were some kind of jealous species.
So guys shouldn't drive nice cars because it encourages jealousy against you guys, hmm or how about some nice shoes.In my opinion the verses talk about the body not about material things.
Also I think there s nothing wrong with wearing nice clothes and pretty things as long as you stay inside the boundry s Allah has given us. I even feel that men can wear gold if they like too and also silk if they think it s nice and not like what hadith says.
And about cleavage I think it s definetely part of the breasts and men like to stare at it. almost nobody walks topless in everyday life but they do wear cleavage and it does attract in a wrong way but that s just how I see it.peace
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author=Ikrame link=topic=9603500.msg292889#msg292889 date=1328697585
[well I really could care less if other women wear nice jewellery and I think your reasoning is fault and even offensive towards women like were some kind of jealous species.
So guys shouldn't drive nice cars because it encourages jealousy against you guys, hmm or how about some nice shoes.Jealousy is a human attribute, God is telling us about it many times.
I think the point is not to show off. If you need to get from point A to point B and need a car to do that, wouldn't any car do the job? Why would a man drive a Ferrari if its not to show off?peace!
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what if that s the car he s driving? and it s his favorite kind of car and he thinks it drives nice.(btw I think a ferrari is ugly)
A question, When you go shopping for clothes and assecoires do you buy things that is your personal taste/flavor or do you buy what people would think it looks good on you?
So if your dress is really pretty it suits your complex etc but still modest and lets say there s a big chance some people would envy you, would you still not wear it?
if not, what would you wear then, a black dress? what if there are other persons are going to envy your black dress.and also what s not to show off, your beauty the one Allah given us or material things if you think it s the second please provide evidence from quran
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My reaction was also towards Huruf I would appreciate an answer from him as well, if he thinks that jalousy is a thing that only plays a part with women or not because if Im correct the verses are adressing women, so I want to know if he thinks it only counts for women. thanks
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Shalom Aleikhem,
I do not see the ayaat to be directing towards anything apart from BODY parts. The good fortune that God grants me, I will enjoy them in this life and on the next life, if I am successful, they will be exclusively for the successful ones. So, being jealous of my Super Car is your problem. However, when God bothered to reveal this ayaat, one must pay heed.
I do understand extenuating circumstances. I understand why at certain times I may be forced to break and bend some rules for the greater good. But to disobey a command because of my culture ???? To fit it ?? Which part of "La ilaha illah Allah" do I not understand ? Some worship statues, some worship cultures, some simply obey their own desires beside God.
I know its all simply my opinion. But given the opportunity, I want to be Ibrahim and go against my society/fore fathers. No matter how strong the social pressure is, I want to be Moses and face this cultural-Pharoah and inform them that I do not submit to their will and will not sell my God's ayaat for cheap price.
In any case, these are just my opinions. And indeed, Gabriel doesn't type on my behalf.
So, Peace be on you all.
------------ Student of Allah
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My reaction was also towards Huruf I would appreciate an answer from him as well, if he thinks that jalousy is a thing that only plays a part with women or not because if Im correct the verses are adressing women, so I want to know if he thinks it only counts for women. thanks
I am not a "him" but a "her".
Vanity and jealousy are not "feminine" shortcomings but human shortcomings, just like anger and highhadedness are not male shortcomings but human shortcomings.
BUT many times, vanity is socially approved in women, far more than in men, competitivenes on beauty is somehow fostered in women, but not as much or not at all in men, whereas highhandedness and anger have been socially condoned in men more so than in women. Many times historically it has been done in the laws, more so even than in the customs.
Not the qur'an does that, but societies some times or many times do. So, as in many other things, the Qur'an stands out of that and sets things straight, vanity is not good, jealousy is not good, anger is not good highhandedness is nto good... for anybody, either males or females. But some things are "sold" more to one sex than the other. And in certain teenagers environments this far from getting better is getting worse.
Beauty is a "beatiful" thing, we should enojoy it, but not make a show off of it nor use it as a weapon for competition. Just as punch power is a gift, but not something to show off or make the wrong use of it.
Not to make a show of our attributes and to use of them for the common good is modesty and the opposite is arrogance.
Hope now it is clear what I meant.
Salaam
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I understand but I disagree that jalousy is something that you can find more in women
I don t think it s gender related I do think women are pressured to be beautiful and men not that s the biggest difference but if you look at men they compete with other things like power and fortune so I leave that to Allah cause he knows humanity best and he knows what s in the hide and whats in the open.And about anger I totally disagree as well because men are physically far mor stronger than woman and maybe if we had the same strenght and power the damage would be equal, Allah knows best.
I just think people should stick to the boundry s of Allah and not decide on their own what s not to be done because where do you draw the line, look at my previous post what if a simple black dress looks beautiful on you what should you were then?
people differ in taste.if somebody bakes a nice cake and make it really good looking some will probably say that person is showing off??
and further more I think people are free to express their personality and their culture through clothing and other materials and also yes look beautiful and show their nice taste I love it if people change ideas and learn from eachothers cultures.
I think nice things are a delight for my eyes and something I can appreciate very muchLook how bad it is in Saudi Arabia, everyone is wearing black, no expression no culture, because why? people can t express their self.
I think that s a dangerous mindset and Im definetely not supporting it.If people can t appreciate nice things it s kind of their problem, especially if they take it as arrogance, let Allah be the judge
and showing off is not a synonym for arrogance, arrogance is feeling/acting that your better if you ask me.I think we better agree to disagree.
Peace peace
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I understand but I disagree that jalousy is something that you can find more in women
I don t think it s gender related I do think women are pressured to be beautiful and men not that s the biggest difference but if you look at men they compete with other things like power and fortune so I leave that to Allah cause he knows humanity best and he knows what s in the hide and whats in the open.And about anger I totally disagree as well because men are physically far mor stronger than woman and maybe if we had the same strenght and power the damage would be equal, Allah knows best.
I just think people should stick to the boundry s of Allah and not decide on their own what s not to be done because where do you draw the line, look at my previous post what if a simple black dress looks beautiful on you what should you were then?
people differ in taste.if somebody bakes a nice cake and make it really good looking some will probably say that person is showing off??
and further more I think people are free to express their personality and their culture through clothing and other materials and also yes look beautiful and show their nice taste I love it if people change ideas and learn from eachothers cultures.
I think nice things are a delight for my eyes and something I can appreciate very muchLook how bad it is in Saudi Arabia, everyone is wearing black, no expression no culture, because why? people can t express their self.
I think that s a dangerous mindset and Im definetely not supporting it.If people can t appreciate nice things it s kind of their problem, especially if they take it as arrogance, let Allah be the judge
and showing off is not a synonym for arrogance, arrogance is feeling/acting that your better if you ask me.I think we better agree to disagree.
Peace peace
Disagree in what? You are saying the same I said. I quote myself
"Vanity and jealousy are not "feminine" shortcomings but human shortcomings, just like anger and highhadedness are not male shortcomings but human shortcomings. "
Salaam