The need to follow some one!
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I am new to this place. so this would be my first post (not rply).
one of the members have sent me a private e-mail. this is what i replyed.
he insits that we do not need to follow anyone to understand the Quran.Thanks for the mail. But I have some reservations-
First
As I understand you said that we don?t need to follow any one. Now my question is, ?why should I follow as to what you say?? When did you become qualified to give me advice? (It is like me giving advice to a NASA astronaut on how to behave in space). If I want to follow, I rather follow some one from the earlier generation, because they were close to the period of revelation.Secondly
Allah said in the Quran, obey Allah and obey the Messenger. Obeying the messenger means, do what he said, did or some one said, did but he the prophet approved of it. If we do not follow the prophet, then we have no value for the Quran. Allah said in the Quran ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger?. We should do what the prophet told us to do. And he said to follow his companions. They showed us how to implement the Quran in our life. From political, economic, social and personnel life. In short the acts and sayings of the prophet (Ahadith) that we have in effect are foot notes to the Quran. Certain Ayah needs more clarification. For example. ?If you are blind in this world, you will be blind in the hereafter?Thirdly
Allah said in another place ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and the people of authority?. ?It is also mentioned in the Quran, ?if you do not understand a mater then ask the people of knowledge?. Now if I take you as a knowledgeable person then I could take your advice. Then again there are people more knowledgeable than you and them and them and them?is it not correct? The most knowledgeable person in the world to exist was the prophet himself. By law of nature, logic, intellect the next knowledgeable would be his companions, then their students and so on so forth, until we come to you. Now why should I take your word for it, after all, Allah did say to ask the people of knowledge.Lastly
When it comes matters related to this world we take advice from so many people. From student to businessman, from layman to head of state, from taxi driver to bank manager. We all take advice from the people we thing are in a better place to give good advice. Why? Because we take this assumption that they are in a better position in terms of knowledge to give us good advice. So when it comes to the most important matter of out existence in this life and the life after, we are so at ease. So let us come and understand the deen of Allah, and not follow our self desire. This self..self..self has destroyed our great enemy the shytan himself. Allah in His wisdom gave him eternal life. That is his wisdom we can not question that can we? When Allah created every thing in the universe in SIX days. Now can we question why he did that? no. What did he do on the seventh day? Rest? Lo! Allah is free from that he does not need rest. So what did he do than on that day? Or seven days before for that matter? We ask the Messenger s.a.w for that.
MAY THE LORD OF THE WORLDS GUIDE THOSE THAT ARE IN NEED OF GUIDE NESS. -
Hello; I am not Muslim, but I wish for non-Muslims to see that hadith-followers are idolworshippers
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=11628#p171851
It will help save the world from its implosive self-love and need for identity. The more idols you worship, the greater your sense of identity, yes?
To be quite frank, your post is full of misinformation. Let me let you know that Sunnis have been debunked a long time ago, and all that is required is a mop-up.
Your first point is irrelevant, but your second point is debunkable
?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger" does not refer to two different sources, as we learn from 480. Otherwise ?obey Allah and obey the Messenger? would actually mean ?obey Allah and obey Allah?.
In English, if I say ?obey me and eat your food?, it means ?do what I say (as a general statement) with the ?and? acting as emphasis or specification. This is confirmed (for the Qur?an) by 350, 26108-110, 26126, 26131, 26144, 26150, 26163, 26179, 4363, 713 which state that the means of being careful of Allah is to obey the Messenger. Literally, obeying the Messenger is just a ?part of? obeying Allah.
According to 331-32 and 1436, ?following? is synonymous with ?obeying? (331 is complemented by 924 which clarifies that loving ?Allah and His Messenger? means loving Allah and His way of life (331). ?Allah and His Messenger represents the ?entity? resulting from the relationship between Allah and the Messenger (Allah delivers His words through the Messenger (91-3))).
1435-36, 1943-44 and 2043 show that ?following? and ?obeying? the Messenger means departing from a life of idol-worship.
2090 does not mean that Haroun was a separate source of law to Musa (2093), just as Musa was not a separate source of law from Allah.
26105-111 shows again that ?following? is synonymous with ?obeying?.
Here (26108-109) the Messenger says that he requests no reward for giving the people something to follow, and Prophet Muhammad said the same when delivering the Qur?an (689-90, 12104, 3886, 4223).
This confirms that giving the people something to follow and obey meant teaching them the Message.
?Be careful of Allah? = ?Obey Allah?
?and obey me? = ?Obey the Messenger?Correspondingly, rejecting the Messenger actually means rejecting the Message (26105), just as following the Messenger means obeying the Message (331-32).
7316 demonstrates that disobeying the Messenger means disobeying the Message.
The ayat 461 and 5104 declare that people should ?come to what Allah has revealed and (come) to the Messenger?. As per 2447, this does not imply ?coming to? two different sources of religion. The Messenger only followed ?what was revealed? (2170, 650, 6106, 73, 7203, 1015, 10109, 332, 469), therefore this is another example of why ?obey Allah and obey the Messenger? means ?obey Allah by obeying the Messenger/Qur?anic decisions.
459 shows us that ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger? does not refer to two separate sources (i.e. the second ?obey? does not constitute separate obedience). If it did, Islam would be authored by three different entities. The verse instructs ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger AND those in authority.?
?Those in authority? are not scholars since they would be expected to obey ?Allah and His Messenger? anyway. They were contextual leaders (483). ?Those in authority? are being included in the statement that usually only reads ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger?.
Therefore ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger? means obeying the words of Allah delivered by the Messenger, as well as Qur?anic situational decisions made with community consultation (3159, 459, 423. These decisions are derived from the Qur?an, thus they are categorised as obeying the Message/Messenger.
All situational/contextual decisions should be in keeping with the principles of the Qur?an (2176, 459, 542, 548, 6114).
The only thing that he is commanded to do is worship and recite (2791-92). Thus there is only a recitation, debunking the ?sunna?.
All this is why 592 says that his only mission is to deliver.
542 tells us a Messenger is not needed to help us judge by the Qur?an.
Do you know not a single Sunni has been able to rescue their argument?
Your third point was addressed above, although your claim about the people of knowledge requires a reference. I know what you refer to, but I want you to post it and learn what you say before you say it.
I assume that your last point is not asking for the ?book and the wisdom? refutation. Please understand that the Qur?an is easy if you study it diligently. You claim to believe in Allah, yet you will be caught out if you don't think He was good enough to write a good-enough book.
Muhammad was not sent to explain it. He only delivered it and taught it (599), just as Allah taught it (551-2). It was Allah?s duty to explain the guidance, not the Messenger?s (169, 9212).
Muslims are also expected to study, convey and teach it to those who wish to learn (244, 2121, 379, 6105, 6156, 7169, 3444, 4724, 6837).
Insincere readers (and people who do not want to understand it) are diverted from the meaning of the Qur?an (7146, 1745-46, 1857, 2252, 4144).
Muslims must follow the Qur?an alone (238, 263, 291, 2120-121, 2213, 2176, 332, 373, 4105, 53, 547-48, 599, 619, 6114-115, 6155-6157, 73, 7144-147, 7169-171, 12111, 179, 1827, 20113, 20123-124, 20133-134, 2127, 2145, 2216, 2254, 2349, 2373, 2530, 2849, 2856, 331-2, 3367, 346, 3923, 3941, 4144, 456, 5045, 981-8 etc.).
You serve Allah by following the Qur?an (379, 111-2). 379 tells you that all knowledge of Islam comes from the Qur'an, so not sure why you suppose Muhammad had more knowledge than a Qur'an-alone expert has today.
It is the best explanation, besides (2533). You will of course ask many ?how to?? questions in order to sustain the identity which you want for yourself. If you are interested in a one-on-one debate, do let me know; I have yet to find an actual "Sunni-Muslim".
Cheers
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As I understand you said that we don?t need to follow any one. Now my question is, ?why should I follow as to what you say?? When did you become qualified to give me advice? (It is like me giving advice to a NASA astronaut on how to behave in space). If I want to follow, I rather follow some one from the earlier generation, because they were close to the period of revelation.
peace,
since the point above was said to be irrelevant, then my reply is also irrelevant to this topic .i just feel like commenting on the analogy since it implies how most of us see things. which i don't quite agree.
yes it's logical to consider the experts when it comes to an advice. but it's not always true.
i just hate the fact that people 'simply' associating knowledge to one's status (be it education/social) or look or title.to me the content is where the focus should be.
if a beggar saying something that make sense why should we buttthurt
why the first thing came up to our mind is 'who do you think you are to give advice'some people are wiser than we thought they were. regardless of their appearance.
status and rank is human-made thing, it might not be/reflect the truth.
even worse nowadays people could buy status and ranks3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the
best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are
the ones who possess intelligence.my key point is listen to what being said.
even a bad thing just listen not jumping
it's up to us to brain it afterwards.and i wonder if those that were close to the period of revelation is reliable enough.
again here we simply look at the status not the content.
since they're companions, close to that period then the content is good? more reliable?next
listen to those with turban with beard kind of guy to ask for relegious maters coz
they are more like arabs thus more likely related to the messenger and so on -
elektro
peace,i think this "need" is psy one, it is like psychopath-opatia.
it is about how we reflect. and human being should be careful who he/she talks, listen 2!!!!
human just should put his/her trust to SUPREME being, and follow the Quran. indeed this book is enlightenment for human being. -
MesMorial yes i love to have one to one, but i like others to see theboth side. i have started a threed in the HADITH section. u may want to see it.
as u are not muslim your prespective view is diff.from say Muslim.
and as for those Muslim. Allah said ' o enter in the fold of Islam fully,and do not obey the shytans...' -
Go take an IQ test.
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MesMorial yes i love to have one to one, but i like others to see theboth side. i have started a threed in the HADITH section. u may want to see it.
as u are not muslim your prespective view is diff.from say Muslim.
and as for those Muslim. Allah said ' o enter in the fold of Islam fully,and do not obey the shytans...'That is fine; I will only use the Qur'an so you will not tell the difference (during debate) between myself and Muslims.
Here's it
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603520.msg293086#msg293086
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man our NEED is GOD.
we shall follow GOD!!!!!!!elektro
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Hello; I am not Muslim, but I wish for non-Muslims to see that hadith-followers are idolworshippers
http//forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=11628#p171851
It will help save the world from its implosive self-love and need for identity. The more idols you worship, the greater your sense of identity, yes?
To be quite frank, your post is full of misinformation. Let me let you know that Sunnis have been debunked a long time ago, and all that is required is a mop-up.
Your first point is irrelevant, but your second point is debunkable
?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger" does not refer to two different sources, as we learn from 480. Otherwise ?obey Allah and obey the Messenger? would actually mean ?obey Allah and obey Allah?.
In English, if I say ?obey me and eat your food?, it means ?do what I say (as a general statement) with the ?and? acting as emphasis or specification. This is confirmed (for the Qur?an) by 350, 26108-110, 26126, 26131, 26144, 26150, 26163, 26179, 4363, 713 which state that the means of being careful of Allah is to obey the Messenger. Literally, obeying the Messenger is just a ?part of? obeying Allah.
According to 331-32 and 1436, ?following? is synonymous with ?obeying? (331 is complemented by 924 which clarifies that loving ?Allah and His Messenger? means loving Allah and His way of life (331). ?Allah and His Messenger represents the ?entity? resulting from the relationship between Allah and the Messenger (Allah delivers His words through the Messenger (91-3))).
1435-36, 1943-44 and 2043 show that ?following? and ?obeying? the Messenger means departing from a life of idol-worship.
2090 does not mean that Haroun was a separate source of law to Musa (2093), just as Musa was not a separate source of law from Allah.
26105-111 shows again that ?following? is synonymous with ?obeying?.
Here (26108-109) the Messenger says that he requests no reward for giving the people something to follow, and Prophet Muhammad said the same when delivering the Qur?an (689-90, 12104, 3886, 4223).
This confirms that giving the people something to follow and obey meant teaching them the Message.
?Be careful of Allah? = ?Obey Allah?
?and obey me? = ?Obey the Messenger?Correspondingly, rejecting the Messenger actually means rejecting the Message (26105), just as following the Messenger means obeying the Message (331-32).
7316 demonstrates that disobeying the Messenger means disobeying the Message.
The ayat 461 and 5104 declare that people should ?come to what Allah has revealed and (come) to the Messenger?. As per 2447, this does not imply ?coming to? two different sources of religion. The Messenger only followed ?what was revealed? (2170, 650, 6106, 73, 7203, 1015, 10109, 332, 469), therefore this is another example of why ?obey Allah and obey the Messenger? means ?obey Allah by obeying the Messenger/Qur?anic decisions.
459 shows us that ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger? does not refer to two separate sources (i.e. the second ?obey? does not constitute separate obedience). If it did, Islam would be authored by three different entities. The verse instructs ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger AND those in authority.?
?Those in authority? are not scholars since they would be expected to obey ?Allah and His Messenger? anyway. They were contextual leaders (483). ?Those in authority? are being included in the statement that usually only reads ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger?.
Therefore ?Obey Allah and obey the Messenger? means obeying the words of Allah delivered by the Messenger, as well as Qur?anic situational decisions made with community consultation (3159, 459, 423. These decisions are derived from the Qur?an, thus they are categorised as obeying the Message/Messenger.
All situational/contextual decisions should be in keeping with the principles of the Qur?an (2176, 459, 542, 548, 6114).
The only thing that he is commanded to do is worship and recite (2791-92). Thus there is only a recitation, debunking the ?sunna?.
All this is why 592 says that his only mission is to deliver.
542 tells us a Messenger is not needed to help us judge by the Qur?an.
Do you know not a single Sunni has been able to rescue their argument?
Your third point was addressed above, although your claim about the people of knowledge requires a reference. I know what you refer to, but I want you to post it and learn what you say before you say it.
I assume that your last point is not asking for the ?book and the wisdom? refutation. Please understand that the Qur?an is easy if you study it diligently. You claim to believe in Allah, yet you will be caught out if you don't think He was good enough to write a good-enough book.
Muhammad was not sent to explain it. He only delivered it and taught it (599), just as Allah taught it (551-2). It was Allah?s duty to explain the guidance, not the Messenger?s (169, 9212).
Muslims are also expected to study, convey and teach it to those who wish to learn (244, 2121, 379, 6105, 6156, 7169, 3444, 4724, 6837).
Insincere readers (and people who do not want to understand it) are diverted from the meaning of the Qur?an (7146, 1745-46, 1857, 2252, 4144).
Muslims must follow the Qur?an alone (238, 263, 291, 2120-121, 2213, 2176, 332, 373, 4105, 53, 547-48, 599, 619, 6114-115, 6155-6157, 73, 7144-147, 7169-171, 12111, 179, 1827, 20113, 20123-124, 20133-134, 2127, 2145, 2216, 2254, 2349, 2373, 2530, 2849, 2856, 331-2, 3367, 346, 3923, 3941, 4144, 456, 5045, 981-8 etc.).
You serve Allah by following the Qur?an (379, 111-2). 379 tells you that all knowledge of Islam comes from the Qur'an, so not sure why you suppose Muhammad had more knowledge than a Qur'an-alone expert has today.
It is the best explanation, besides (2533). You will of course ask many ?how to?? questions in order to sustain the identity which you want for yourself. If you are interested in a one-on-one debate, do let me know; I have yet to find an actual "Sunni-Muslim".
Cheers
if you are not muslim so why do you bother teaching anyone a religion you dont believe in yourself?
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Dear maha;
Here it seems is your first questioning, so I should apologise for saying you lied (thinking you meant you asked on that thread). However, your other antics remain.
Either way, your question is irrelevant since nowhere in the above post did I preach.
Now, I put that response here because it is effective. If it were left to your efforts, reform would get nowhere (if I am wrong, you may wish to explain yourself on the other thread. Unfortunately you said "bye" when you knew you could not).
I do not care about Islam or the Qur'an, and I am happy to let people say it is not a religion, so if I am going to interact with "Qur'an-alone", it means it will be in a way which will help "Qur'an-alone" Muslims (not people like you) argue more effectively. Unfortunately religion is like a lamp for the individual (genie), so it is actually non-Muslims who will be carrying the arguments which Qur'an-aloners (OR thinkers) can present.
This is because the problems with the world are psychological. If your solution is to instruct people to believe something, you might as well tell them to believe anything. People already know what is "good" and "bad" ("better" and "worse", and you need to provide them what religion provides the religious people (identity, but without faith).
This is acknowledged by Qur'an-alone Muslims, which is why they do not like to think of Islam as "religion". They prefer it to be a system or philosophy, but unfortunately this makes the Qur'an very redundant.
Therefore I see the Qur'an as redundant, and have an alternative approach. My priority is not salvation through external worship, but satisfaction through being me (self-awareness). This involves knowing what is "good", and therefore working for it. In a sense, I took the philosophy from religion ("religion" = "philosophy" + "faith" where "philosophy" needs "faith". A religion is a philosophy that does not empirically stand up without faith.
Cheers.