Cleavage and Verse 24:31
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Salam Abdul-Hadi,
Which is better, knowledge and logic--or emotion and tradition?
I dont know who is talking emotions and traditions here, I havent seen that. I think emotion and traditions is when you say "its ok if you are uncomfortable and if its ok in your culture".
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of GOD, perhaps they will remember.
What is the best garment? sun
I anderstand this aya as it doesnt matter if you wear feathres or sack, beautifull or ugly clothes, it doesnt matter for God , but The God is actually telling us how to cloth, not what to cloth in 2431.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Are/should people be forced to follow the understanding of another? hmm
"Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD" that for me means reject evilish things like popular culture and trying to be like others, or show the beauty in wrong place and time. And believing in God is doing as told by God, regardless culture.
3114 And We enjoined man regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two years. You shall give thanks to Me, and to your parents. To Me is the final destiny.
Two years to wean is substantial time. Should a woman let her child go hungry if in public--or just stay at home all the time if breast feeding in public is "forbidden"? Just how long has baby formula been available, anyway?
Why should the baby go hungry, is there no middleway? either show breasts and feed or not feed? why not put something on her brest while feeding? (I dont have children I dont know, just wondering)
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
What people tryed to say here is only Gods ayas, showing them and insisting on not compromising with them. Actually I think its more dangerous to give the green light to do something God has allready told us not to do, just because you are not sure. Maybe better not to say anything?
What do you think cover your cleavages means?don't dress in a certain way if the dress is questionable.
I think that was supposed to be your answer from the begening. If cleavage is questionable and you are not sure, then simply dont do it.
ALLAH knows best.
Peace on you! -
Greetings and Peace, all group
To each their own.
Salaam Abdul-Hadi,
I guess this was a response to my post.1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
Which is better, knowledge and logic--or emotion and tradition?
I don?t exactly understand why you brought up this verse. This verse is talking about things we have NO knowledge of. But we have knowledge on what parts a believing female has to cover.
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your bodies, and feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from the signs of GOD, perhaps they will remember.
What is the best garment? sun
Do you think the red part cancels out the blue part of the verse? I don't think so, please note the AND between those 2 parts.
Also note in which way the second garment is used.2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
Are/should people be forced to follow the understanding of another? hmm
Sure bro no compulsion, totally agree. But you forget to highlight the second part of the verse, which is equally important (the red part).
I believe the proper way for believing women is clarified in 2431.3114 And We enjoined man regarding his parents. His mother bore him with hardship upon hardship, and his weaning takes two years. You shall give thanks to Me, and to your parents. To Me is the final destiny.
Two years to wean is substantial time. Should a woman let her child go hungry if in public--or just stay at home all the time if breast feeding in public is "forbidden"? Just how long has baby formula been available, anyway?
http//www.greenprophet.com/2010/06/breastfeed-your-baby-in-a-hijab-public-breastfeeding-in-the-middle-east/
You are making things very dramatic bro
Maybe I had to be clearer in my post. I meant breastfeeding in such a way that the woman?s breast can be seen. To my understanding if she covers her cleavage and she gives her child breastfeeding then of course that?s totally ok, as she still obeys the command of covering her cleavage. But with a naked breast, as some women do, that is I believe not correct. Sorry for not being clear.16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
If I invented a lie about Allah, then I did it because of my poor understanding. InshaAllah Allah will forgive me for that pr
To my understanding, everyone has to read the verse and take the best possible meaning of it not the easiest possible meaning. And of course I gave only my understanding, every woman has to verify for herself what she think is best. I am not a lawmaker , I just gave my opinion to my current understanding.
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
It sure sounds like different culture is accepted and well known--we don't have to look/act/be the same. Nudity is the norm in some cultures, but a person doesn't have to join that culture/can leave it.
No idea, what this has to do with the subject.
but of course there are different cultures, BUT there is only 1 correct deen (as far as I know).If doubt exists, there is no doubt--it is better not to do a thing where there is doubt involved. Don't eat a food item if the safety is dubious and likewise don't dress in a certain way if the dress is questionable.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
I agree, I believe we always have to take the best way in case we are not sure about somethings.
Salaam and may Allah increase is in knowledge,
Bender -
I anderstand this aya as it doesnt matter if you wear feathres or sack, beautifull or ugly clothes, it doesnt matter for God , but The God is actually telling us how to cloth, not what to cloth in 2431.
Salaam Ala,
Thank you, I didn't noticed that, every day I am learning alhamdulillah a little bit more
ps. I really liked your post about Qaroon
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Peace all,
I think on the subject of breastfeeding, we have to be careful in considering it as the same kind of "exposure" as inappropriate dress. As a father of three kids who all have breastfed, I can tell you from experience that 1) some kids will not nurse with something over their head, which is necessary to completely cover the breast, and 2) when a child is done nursing, he will unlatch without warning, which will momentarily leave the entire breast exposed.
That being said, anyone who considers this kind of exposure to be the same as a woman intentionally dressing lewdly has issues with the female form. They need to avert the eye because the problem is with them, not the woman. If I caught some guy leering at my wife while she was nursing, I'd punch him because she isn't exposing herself for any other reason than my son needs to eat. His staring is an unwelcome invasion of her person. If we were out at a restaurant and someone were to tell my wife to cover up or go to the car or the restroom, I'd take the plate off of their table and take it to the restroom. If my kid has to eat in the bathroom, then so do they.
In other words, when applying this verse we need to use some God-given common sense and realize that nursing moms are not exposing themselves because they want to. They have a hungry child who needs milk immediately. Similarly, when infants become sick or injured, they want to nurse because it is the only coping mechanism that they have for pain and stress. The fact that the Quran, out of all of the writings of monotheistic religions, is the ONLY text that explicitly protects a mother's right to nurse, should weigh heavily in understanding this passage.
Peace,
Joel -
As a mother that has exclusively breastfed 2 children for 2 years each, I know that the breast will be shown at some point in public. Some babies will not breastfeed with a cover on them (they aren't embarassed about what they are doing!). They will kick the cover off, pull the cover off, or latch off at any given moment and thrust themselves away from you. I know there is nothing wrong with this.
I have sometimes seen the above ayah translated as "keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is NECESSARY". This translation really resonated with me in regards to breastfeeding.
Also about the cleavage, you are going to have to determine what is right for you. This, like so many other things in the Quran, is not black and white. A woman's clothing is such a personal issue. Only you know your situation, intentions, comfort and all the other factors that will decide the best garment for you.
Let's leave arguing over the ONE female dress code to the Sunnis and Shias. They really excel in that area.
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Ala,
The verse is not talking about material things it s talking specific about the beauty of a woman s body even if it can mean both like you said, this time it doesn't.
What I like about quran is that it's reasonable and that one has to use his logic.
Nowhere did I say it s ok to brag about your possesions especially like in the man in the story in the hope to make people feel less.
I quote you''He also liked to show off what he had as a measure of self-expression/self-realisation'' I have to say that the fault he made is bragging, not self expressing because there is nothing wrong with self expressing, people are free to show their culture and taste wich is part of their identity. Like I said earlier I don t support this kind of mindset because to me it s dangerous.Also who decides what is zeenah/beauty and what is not? People differ in taste. what s beautiful in your eyes could be hideous in mine.
I'm going to qoute verse 2431 and show you the way I see it but I think the verse speaks for it self to be honest. I'm also over this topic because I caught myself in repeating how I think about it and it feels tiring so if it's any use to you that would be nice but if it's not that would be fine either.
to each their own offcourse.2431
And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment/ZEENATUHUM except that which appears thereof and to wrap their covers over their chests and not expose their adornment/ZEENATHUNA except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment/ZEENATIHIM.
And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.If you look at the verse it says to not expose their beauty exept wich is necessarily and that they should cover their chest so they don t expose their beauty and than the following of people where this is not necessary.
Like you see that includes males who don t have physical desire and children who are not aware of the private aspects. So it s about not making someone sexually desire you, a male won t be sexually desired because your dress has such a nice tone of green.
and the verse ends with not stamping your feet because that can make your beauty shown, wich doesn t matter how you put your feet if it s about your clothing because that is being showed anyways.Hope it s clear now.
Peace
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Salam!
Thank you Amouna and MaverickMonotheist for sharing your experiences about breastfeeding.
I have sometimes seen the above ayah translated as "keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is NECESSARY". This translation really resonated with me in regards to breastfeeding.
Breastfeeding is necessary.
Gotto think about it, may God guide us.Peace peace
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I anderstand this aya as it doesnt matter if you wear feathres or sack, beautifull or ugly clothes, it doesnt matter for God , but The God is actually telling us how to cloth, not what to cloth in 2431.
Peace,
Interesting perspective!
You mentioned earlier that juyoob doesn't mean breasts (which juyoob doesn't in other verses), how would you translate that portion of 2431, then? Pockets just doesn't make sense? Why would we need an extra layer over the pockets, etc?
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Salam Ikram )
This word of "show off" has maybe been an unnecessary discussion, we shouldn't expect the worse when talking to each other, so I am sorry if I misunderstood what you meant there.
I see your point about 2431 and i agree, maybe we can summarize it in being discreet and of course remember what we shall cover? I think that is a good understanding as it ends by not stamping your feet because that can make your beauty shown, so dont make your beauty visible. Now im thinking if I paint my eyes in a nice way that will make my eyes look nicer, so Im making them more visible and attracting with the assistance of makeup which is material. Im not free from accessories myself, I still like them and wear them because God dont forbid them but I always think about being as discreet as I can. Of course that is very subjective and personal, but God know what is in our hearts and he is the judge.
Have a nice day.
peace -
Peace all,
I think on the subject of breastfeeding, we have to be careful in considering it as the same kind of "exposure" as inappropriate dress. As a father of three kids who all have breastfed, I can tell you from experience that 1) some kids will not nurse with something over their head, which is necessary to completely cover the breast, and 2) when a child is done nursing, he will unlatch without warning, which will momentarily leave the entire breast exposed.
That being said, anyone who considers this kind of exposure to be the same as a woman intentionally dressing lewdly has issues with the female form. They need to avert the eye because the problem is with them, not the woman. If I caught some guy leering at my wife while she was nursing, I'd punch him because she isn't exposing herself for any other reason than my son needs to eat. His staring is an unwelcome invasion of her person. If we were out at a restaurant and someone were to tell my wife to cover up or go to the car or the restroom, I'd take the plate off of their table and take it to the restroom. If my kid has to eat in the bathroom, then so do they.
In other words, when applying this verse we need to use some God-given common sense and realize that nursing moms are not exposing themselves because they want to. They have a hungry child who needs milk immediately. Similarly, when infants become sick or injured, they want to nurse because it is the only coping mechanism that they have for pain and stress. The fact that the Quran, out of all of the writings of monotheistic religions, is the ONLY text that explicitly protects a mother's right to nurse, should weigh heavily in understanding this passage.
Peace,
JoelSalaam Joel,
I believe we must not take extreme examples and set that as guidelines on how to understand things. InshaAllah Allah is forgiving if someone does something out of necessity.
See for example the food laws, they are very clear but Allah will inshaAllah forgive if someone violates them out of necessity. Each person knows for him/her-self what this necessity is for him/her.Salaam,
Bender -
I think that the aya imparts a sense of normality and common sense. It doesn't go into exreemes of obsession. And anybody who reads it that way finds no problem finding the sense of measure in the whole thing. You are not going to abstain from sucking a child because that is a normal, a common need of people. People who do not like do not look and that is it. it is not a display just as writing is not a display of beautiful hands. The bosom, we know is an item on which women who pride in their beauty do feel pride, so do not display, but a feeding breast is not a zeena. At any rate is far more peaceful that a baby craying through the roof because he wants to be fed.
On the other hand, unless there is a need women do not usually suck in front of anybody if they can avoid it, and unless of course, anybody plants himself in from of them when they do so.
I think common sense is also useful when reading and understanding the Qur'an. There is nothing in 24.31 that makes it extraterrestrial or hard to get. Although may be I am wrong. May be is the obsession with sex treatment hat we have had for ages concenring these things that may turn into something obscure and complicated laden with guilt things that are really not so.
Salaam
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Salam Jack,
I would say in general any opening in the clothes where you can put in and take out your hands without difficulty considering the usage of the word in the Quran. Maybe in 2437 its a bit different thinking about juyoob being zeenah there. So its about women,its an opening in the clothes (or maybe the body??) which is something beautiful and sexual attracting and also its something that should be covered. Cleavage makes sense, could even be an opening from a miniskirt?
Thank you for asking, made me think deeper about it. handshake
Peace!
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Ala,
The verse is not talking about material things it s talking specific about the beauty of a woman s body even if it can mean both like you said, this time it doesn't.
What I like about quran is that it's reasonable and that one has to use his logic.
Nowhere did I say it s ok to brag about your possesions especially like in the man in the story in the hope to make people feel less.
I quote you''He also liked to show off what he had as a measure of self-expression/self-realisation'' I have to say that the fault he made is bragging, not self expressing because there is nothing wrong with self expressing, people are free to show their culture and taste wich is part of their identity. Like I said earlier I don t support this kind of mindset because to me it s dangerous.Also who decides what is zeenah/beauty and what is not? People differ in taste. what s beautiful in your eyes could be hideous in mine.
I'm going to qoute verse 2431 and show you the way I see it but I think the verse speaks for it self to be honest. I'm also over this topic because I caught myself in repeating how I think about it and it feels tiring so if it's any use to you that would be nice but if it's not that would be fine either.
to each their own offcourse.2431
And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment/ZEENATUHUM except that which appears thereof and to wrap their covers over their chests and not expose their adornment/ZEENATHUNA except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment/ZEENATIHIM.
And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.If you look at the verse it says to not expose their beauty exept wich is necessarily and that they should cover their chest so they don t expose their beauty and than the following of people where this is not necessary.
Like you see that includes males who don t have physical desire and children who are not aware of the private aspects. So it s about not making someone sexually desire you, a male won t be sexually desired because your dress has such a nice tone of green.
and the verse ends with not stamping your feet because that can make your beauty shown, wich doesn t matter how you put your feet if it s about your clothing because that is being showed anyways.Hope it s clear now.
Peace
I do not think it is about sexual attraction, because all those preventions in front of the people who are not close must also be followed in front of women. What you cover, if you cover something is for the benefit of men and women not only for the benefit of men.that is what the aya says. So what is there of sexuality is about sexual vanity, not specifically about tempting anybody but about awaking jalosy or covetousness, unless of course one understand that it is including same sex sexual attraction, but in that case, one misses the same thing adressed to men.
?From where do we get that it refers to the physicalattributes exclusively of women and does not include every other resource that women may use to make themselves attractive? ?Where are other zina excluded? ?Why doesn't it cover the whole zeena a woman may use to be liked, to be attracting to be admired to highlight whatever she may want to highlite? Women who dress and beaufy themselves to that end do not rely on sexual attributes just for that, they make a "whole" of the matter of appearance and usually people do not take their appearance apart as to say this is sexual atraction and this is beauty. The whole comes in a unified pack. And they, dependign on the society, may get standing through their appearance and improvement in their lot in life or that may be their hope.
No, I do not see that it is speaking about sexual arousement but as the use of sexual beauty, amonst other means, in order to impress beyond what they would without that display.
Salaam
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@Ala
You didn t need to apologizes it s ok, I think we just have different opinions and I also agree this subject is personal.
have a nice day as well peace peace@huruf
It can be both but still it comes down to the physical attributs because if not, the same would count for men.
And it does speak about sexual attraction because a man who hasn't physical desires there s no harm in exposing your beauty and also around children.I'm not talking about highlighting your beauty(again I refer to physical attributs)because obviously that s wrong when the command is to cover this kind of beauty. and the vanity of other women you re talking about is also in my opinion towards your physical attributs and offcourse exept what appears thereof and isn t neseccesary to be covered. I think the verses are clear. Women can be beautiful and take care of thereselves as long as they don t expose their physical attributs, wich should be covered. If you have a nice face there s a chance as well people will be jalous so one should stick to the rules of the Quran. beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one may think this is ugly and the other may think it's beautiful and there s definetely a difference between appearing beautiful and appearing sexually attractive especially to men but that s my opinion. The one like before lol so let s leave it at this.
peace
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Ala,
The verse is not talking about material things it s talking specific about the beauty of a woman s body even if it can mean both like you said, this time it doesn't.
What I like about quran is that it's reasonable and that one has to use his logic.
Nowhere did I say it s ok to brag about your possesions especially like in the man in the story in the hope to make people feel less.
I quote you''He also liked to show off what he had as a measure of self-expression/self-realisation'' I have to say that the fault he made is bragging, not self expressing because there is nothing wrong with self expressing, people are free to show their culture and taste wich is part of their identity. Like I said earlier I don t support this kind of mindset because to me it s dangerous.Also who decides what is zeenah/beauty and what is not? People differ in taste. what s beautiful in your eyes could be hideous in mine.
I'm going to qoute verse 2431 and show you the way I see it but I think the verse speaks for it self to be honest. I'm also over this topic because I caught myself in repeating how I think about it and it feels tiring so if it's any use to you that would be nice but if it's not that would be fine either.
to each their own offcourse.2431
And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment/ZEENATUHUM except that which appears thereof and to wrap their covers over their chests and not expose their adornment/ZEENATHUNA except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment/ZEENATIHIM.
And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.If you look at the verse it says to not expose their beauty exept wich is necessarily and that they should cover their chest so they don t expose their beauty and than the following of people where this is not necessary.
Like you see that includes males who don t have physical desire and children who are not aware of the private aspects. So it s about not making someone sexually desire you, a male won t be sexually desired because your dress has such a nice tone of green.
and the verse ends with not stamping your feet because that can make your beauty shown, wich doesn t matter how you put your feet if it s about your clothing because that is being showed anyways.Hope it s clear now.
Peace
There is no denying that the sexual desire and urge in a man, who is otherwise physically fit/is holder of completely developed genitalia, never vanishes altogether at any point in time in his life or feels unfit to perform.
Amongst men, the above two possessive phrases will, therefore, signify those men who are other than men who are the holders of physical capability and desire for marriage, i.e., such "men" having deficiency-under developed manly-hood, whereby they do not naturally have the urge and desire for seeking women for Marriage/Nikah. Interestingly, the next entry with "or" is about children who have not as yet known as to what are the "sexual privacies of women" like these types of otherwise "men". Perhaps this is the only occasion where we find mention of otherwise existing concept and such people.Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan
a) Total occurrences 2
b) No of constructions 2
This Root signifies and denotes Desire or need which requires exercise of energy, a helping source/instrument for accomplishment; distinct and complete part of body such as is made complete not wanting anything. Lane's Lexicon quotes the word and suggests that the most common reading is with Fatha on Hamza denoting and meaning the desire/urge but some read with Kasra which specially means the specific part of man, the genital. He seems referring to this entry in Lisan- the Classic lexicon
. . .
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Huruf wich question?
I feel women are included because this sets a bad example for them and pressures them to expose their own physical attributes as well. the media and magazines are a good example of that. It makes them act the same so they will be desired as well but obviously for the wrong reasons and not for their intellect and if I look at reality this is also being confirmed and as a woman that s the only influence that I could get from other woman exposing their body because in what way would it affect me otherwise?
That s how I see it.Peace
@Mazhar yeah that makes sence I do think older men are unfit to perform because that s why they invented pills but probably not all older men. You can t take the risk offcourse and with children you know it s not harmfull.
thanks for contributing.(also wanted to add in general even if any women chooses to expose her physical attributes it doesn't justify the faults a man makes by sexually harrasing women and desiring her as a lust object even if she projects herself as one. It's not all to blame on women.
Covering can help not being harrased as stated in the quran but men should take their own responsibilities offcourse) -
Salaam Joel,
I believe we must not take extreme examples and set that as guidelines on how to understand things. InshaAllah Allah is forgiving if someone does something out of necessity.
See for example the food laws, they are very clear but Allah will inshaAllah forgive if someone violates them out of necessity. Each person knows for him/her-self what this necessity is for him/her.Salaam,
BenderPeace Bender,
Certainly. I was just making the point that, while nursing a child may expose part or all of a breast, it is categorically different than this verse. The intent of a woman who dresses provocatively is different than a nursing mom. One kind of intent should be censored, the other protected, even though both on the surface involve some sort of exposure. Now, if a woman is nursing openly in a public place solely for the purpose of being contentious and to provoke some sort of reaction, then I think the verse applies. While there are not many women like this, there are some out there, and I think they've made the natural act of feeding their child into an ugly thing.
Peace,
Joel -
@Mazhar yeah that makes sence I do think older men are unfit to perform because that s why they invented pills but probably not all older men. You can t take the risk offcourse and with children you know it s not harmfull.
thanks for contributing.(also wanted to add in general even if any women chooses to expose her physical attributes it doesn't justify the faults a man makes by sexually harrasing women and desiring her as a lust object even if she projects herself as one. It's not all to blame on women.
Covering can help not being harrased as stated in the quran but men should take their own responsibilities offcourse)The statement was already qualified one
who is otherwise physically fit/is holder of completely developed genitalia, never vanishes altogether at any point in time in his life or feels unfit to perform.All older men are capable to perform, except those suffering from some disease. Evidence is REM sleep........ which demonstrates performance capability of men of all ages.
Women are asked to cooperate while in public by not making such parts prominent which incite or become stimuli for automatic inbuilt sexual system of men becoming operative or agitated. Men are advised not to fucus their vision on women, in other words not to harrass women by looks.