Caliphate system and Slavery
-
Hello,
I have a question about the Caliphate system - is it specified in the Quran? According to other Muslims, it is permissible if a Caliph choses to fight disbelievers if they refuse Islam or paying jizyah as subdied dhimmis to keep their religion as an alternative - do you agree? And slavery - the Islamic slave trade in Asia and Africa saw the enslavement of millions simply on the basis that they were not Muslims. Most of the female slaves were used as sex slaves. Some Caliphs required children to be given as jizyah. Is it permissible according to the Quran in your view?
Peace to all.
There is nothing called conquest in the Koran. Koran only alolows defensive war. There is nothing called Caliphate in the Koran. We have prophets in the Koran and not Caliphs. Jizya came in the Koran as the believers were entering Mecca as a compensation for the loss of property and wealth they suffered as a result of their forced exile. Prophets are frobidden in the Koran for accepting monetary rewards from people except for charity.
Slavery was existed in Islam because the Muslim authorities wanted it and they relied on the verse of the Koran about "ma malakat aymunukum"(right hand possess) to justify that. Slavery is a function of Muslim hadith teachings and not Koran. Slavery was forbidden in the Koran and was one of the accusations Moses gave against the Pharoah. It was also one of things done by Joseph's brothers on Joseph. These characters in the Koran are characters who were condemned and not praised. Slavery in the Koran is an act of tyrants and not believers. The Koran repeatedly called for the freeing of slaves so how can it then condone it?
-
Interesting.... thank you for your comments. I am just trying to understand as I've heard differently from Sunni Muslims.
What about this
Qur'an (235-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (7029-30).
Qur'an (1675) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 1671, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).
Are prisoners of war lawful to be enslaved? According to Islamic history, Muhammad killed the men of Banu Qurayza and allowed the women to be taken as booty. Did he break the rules?
Please do not lose patience with me, as I am trying to understand.
Peace.
-
The only reasonable system is Natural Law. Read this http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/6/26/
-
Interesting.... thank you for your comments. I am just trying to understand as I've heard differently from Sunni Muslims.
What about this
Are prisoners of war lawful to be enslaved? According to Islamic history, Muhammad killed the men of Banu Qurayza and allowed the women to be taken as booty. Did he break the rules?
Please do not lose patience with me, as I am trying to understand.
Peace.
The Koran provided two options for captives, either freedom or ransom. The Sunnis and Shias added two more, enslavement for women captives and death for the male. The ruler decides the fate of prisoners as far as Sunni/Shia Islam is concerned.
Over here we follow the Koran and are not that interested in Sunni or Shia doctrine unless we are comparing them with the Koran.
As far as the verse in the Koran about slaves not having dominion (16.75) this is a parable the Koran used to compare those who worship other gods as compared to God. That is the whole point of slavery, its a destructive practice.
Why Muslim authorities later on allowed it probably has to do with what the political rulers wanted. They can invent any historic narrations they want after all Muhammad was not around to dispute them. Here we are concerned with the Koran.
As far as verse 23.5-6 the word "captive" was included in the translation even though it is not part of the Koranic text. That is how they interpret the verse based on some hadith they have. We don't follow hadith here. This is a Koranist forum.
-
From what is known of authentic history, did Muhammad himself ever take captives or women as booty?
-
The Quranist perspective?
-
As you can see CuriousGirl... things are not so black and white as one might think.
Islam is no longer Islam. The famous and known Islam (as we "see" it today) is a construct of people over hundreds of years. It has in essence nothing to do with what is written in the quran.Those question you put forth mainly deal with stories, myths and often times stupid things that has ended up being called Islam... by both people who count themselves as belonging to this Islam and not. So, we have Islam and we have Islam. They are not the same in any sense.
I don't think most christians of today would like to count burning of witches, and so many other horrible things, as being part of their religion. Same story. All bad, ridiculous and destructive things come from people, not from a merciful Creator.And whether some prophet took slaves etc, who cares? How can we know? We were not there to see. And those so called authentic and reliable sources are not necessarily more authentic than any cheap lie. So.... If the quran does NOT support slavery, and it was the prophet who received the quran thru inspiration, and promoted it.... naturally he didn't support slavery either! Isn't that quite logical??
May I ask you purpose of these question? Is it that you are interested in turning towards Islam, whatever that is... or is it some research work.... or.? I'm asking because depending on the underlying intent and purpose, one can streamline the question/answer stream accordingly for higher efficiency of learning.
Asking questions is very very good. But it is an art too.
All the best
Peace -
As you can see CuriousGirl... things are not so black and white as one might think.
Islam is no longer Islam. The famous and known Islam (as we "see" it today) is a construct of people over hundreds of years. It has in essence nothing to do with what is written in the quran.Those question you put forth mainly deal with stories, myths and often times stupid things that has ended up being called Islam... by both people who count themselves as belonging to this Islam and not. So, we have Islam and we have Islam. They are not the same in any sense.
I don't think most christians of today would like to count burning of witches, and so many other horrible things, as being part of their religion. Same story. All bad, ridiculous and destructive things come from people, not from a merciful Creator.And whether some prophet took slaves etc, who cares? How can we know? We were not there to see. And those so called authentic and reliable sources are not necessarily more authentic than any cheap lie. So.... If the quran does NOT support slavery, and it was the prophet who received the quran thru inspiration, and promoted it.... naturally he didn't support slavery either! Isn't that quite logical??
May I ask you purpose of these question? Is it that you are interested in turning towards Islam, whatever that is... or is it some research work.... or.? I'm asking because depending on the underlying intent and purpose, one can streamline the question/answer stream accordingly for higher efficiency of learning.
Asking questions is very very good. But it is an art too.
All the best
PeaceGood point. In the opening home page of this forum you can see a summary of some of the differences between Quranic Islam and sectarian Islam.
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY'S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows
In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the ?Straight Path? (6151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books?
In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (9012-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war?
In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...
In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (412), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man?s guardianship (43), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut?a)...
In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a waiting period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (651, 654), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (1276), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...
In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (242), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...
In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2256, 1099; 1829; 8821-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths...
In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter ?Muslim? must work to attain the status of Faithful ?Mumin? (4914), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...
In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards...
In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (2227-2, Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (1712, 936), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time?
In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (327), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...
In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(732-33, 16116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...
In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (548, 423. Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.
Therefore, the clearest difference is that Islam is a monotheistic, clear, consistent, dynamic, progressive, balanced system...a system that eliminates conjectures, hearsay, fairy tales and contradictions...therefore it eliminates hardship, confusion, chaos, and division. It is a system which puts more accent on the usage of intellect, reason, pondering over God, His Creation, meaning of life, pondering over everything...While the sects represent superstition, unfair treatment for non-cult members, inequality of the sexes, oppression of human rights, inability to contribute to human progress, amputations or physical violence, regression of ideas and thoughts to primitive levels of barbarism, and most importantly setting-up partners with the One True God and thus promoting polytheism.
http//free-minds.org/god-alone
26.18-22 (Pharaoh) said "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life? 18. (Pharaoh) said "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life? "And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art an ungrateful (wretch)!" Moses said "I did it then, when I was in error. "So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the apostles. "And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!"
2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing. hail
-
I have learned a lot about Islam from the sunnis and I would like to understand the Quran only view and how that works. I don't like the religion of Islam I have seen, I would never convert to it.
-
I have learned a lot about Islam from the sunnis and I would like to understand the Quran only view and how that works. I don't like the religion of Islam I have seen, I would never convert to it.
Unfortunantly God is not too concerned with what we like. If yu are looking for something to like you might try the movies. The path to God is filled with things we do not like. Just ask the prophets and they will tell you.
-
Unfortunantly God is not too concerned with what we like. If yu are looking for something to like you might try the movies. The path to God is filled with things we do not like. Just ask the prophets and they will tell you.
Your post needs to be edited. The path to God is filled with things the EVIL PEOPLE dont like. For instance, sunni rapists wont like to abolish sexual slavery of women and children as it would decrease the chances of having multiple sexual partners and onenight stands.
But the path to God is filled with blessings and hope for the good god-fearing people.Peace
-
Interesting.... thank you for your comments. I am just trying to understand as I've heard differently from Sunni Muslims.
What about this
Are prisoners of war lawful to be enslaved? According to Islamic history, Muhammad killed the men of Banu Qurayza and allowed the women to be taken as booty. Did he break the rules?
Please do not lose patience with me, as I am trying to understand.
Peace.
ok so the issue is that you heard from the sunnis that muhammed was a rapist during wartimes and now you want to know whether we quranists support sex-slavery i.e rape during war?
My question to you is Do you really think that a god-fearing person would rape or suppport rape of women and children? Sunnism is an act of heresy in itself.
Peace
-
Unfortunantly God is not too concerned with what we like. If yu are looking for something to like you might try the movies. The path to God is filled with things we do not like. Just ask the prophets and they will tell you.
I have no problem with Islam as YOU have shown, I am referring to what I have seen and learned from the Sunnis. Calm down!!!!
ok so the issue is that you heard from the sunnis that muhammed was a rapist during wartimes and now you want to know whether we quranists support sex-slavery i.e rape during war?
My question to you is Do you really think that a god-fearing person would rape or suppport rape of women and children? Sunnism is an act of heresy in itself.
Peace
So I gather that you don't believe he did such things. I don't know what to make of the sunnah and hadith. Can anyone prove that it is false or truthful outright? But to be safe, the Quran should always be the source of guidance - I agree with you there.
-
There is a line of study of hadiths. They are classified and all. The question is that it is a free for all, where the good is mixed with the bad, where many hadiths contradict other hadicths about the same thing, so it is ovious not a homogenous thing. Certainly not a a single piece, like Qur'an is a unit. Teh word hadith is a basket where different people, many different people have thrown the most heterogeneous material in. The only unifying trait, is that they are purported to go back to the Prophet or someone known to him. Stressed PURPORTED.
The only reaosnable way to treat hadiths is by what they say in the field where they are supposed to be good, that is, spiritual and moral guidance. As history , they should be subjected to the exigencies of historical research noless than anything else. As spiritual teachings they are to be judged by how much they teach or guide, and of course it goes weithout saying that you have to take one by one, because they are not related, and the only way to judge them is by their content and not rely on any puported authorship.
Each one of them is regardless of any other.
Salaam
-
I have no problem with Islam as YOU have shown, I am referring to what I have seen and learned from the Sunnis. ) Calm down!!!!
So I gather that you don't believe he did such things. I don't know what to make of the sunnah and hadith. Can anyone prove that it is false or truthful outright? But to be safe, the Quran should always be the source of guidance - I agree with you there.
When a sunni tries to defend rape in the name of god you should simply ask him of whether he also approves rape of his own mother.
Its only an imbecile who can defend rape. Being a sunni is being an imbecile.
Peace
-
On the concept of Slavery in the Quran
424 - Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
2221 - Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind That they may celebrate His praise.
589 - Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
It would seem prima facie that Islam does condone slavery and which can only occur by taking captives. (But as someone already pointed out, Muslims may only engage in defensive fighting). However, even a slave women must be sought in marriage - though the opinion of others is that it is nothing short of the institutionalization of sex-slavery and concubinage.
But on a more thorough reading of the Quran one can see that slavery is discouraged.
-
When a sunni tries to defend rape in the name of god you should simply ask him of whether he also approves rape of his own mother.
Its only an imbecile who can defend rape. Being a sunni is being an imbecile.
Peace
The reality is most Muslims are not aware what the Sunnah teaches and are not aware of what Islamic history was actually doing. Unlike the Europeans, the Muslim authorities kept their population in the dark. Clerics are very selective which aspects of the Sunnah and their Shariah law they preach. Most Muslims are not ware of slavery and prisoners of war in the Shariah law preached by these sects.
Muslim authorities did what the political establishement wanted them to do. This way the Sunnis can cotrol the mosques while the dictator controls the palace and the army. Its only recently when some of this stuff started coming out. Mostly its the Salafist and terrorist and the availablity of the printing press and the internet that helped many aspect of the Sunnah to come out.
After 9-11, many Wetsreners became heavy Islami critics and many found the Sunnah as an easy way to attack Islam. This actually helped some Muslims get acquianted with the more problematic aspect of the Sunnah.
But,
Those same Islam bashers will deny us since we are harder to critique than the sects since the Koran is not the Sunnah. They will try to downplay our significance and insist on the authority of the Sunnah since they need it to attack Islam. Most of these guys want to justify some wars and they find Islam bashing an expedient way to garnish public support to justify wars against Muslim countries. The Neocons are probably at the forefront of this Islam bashing campaign. We therefore are not good news to them.
Also, as far as we are concerned, we have a lot more issues with sectarian Islam than simply the problematic issues. Our differences with the sects ranges many areas including many rituals, beliefs and practices that Muslims are told to do. Many of them maybe not be problematic such as eating with the right hand or prohibiting men from wearing gold and silk etc or forcing women not to pray during their menstraution or the belief in stoning the devil practice during the haj etc. Plus there are many aspects of the Koran that the sects simply ignored.
Its our job to educate the public. But our agenda is much larger than just problematic issues.
-
On the concept of Slavery in the Quran
424 - Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
2221 - Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind That they may celebrate His praise.
589 - Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
It would seem prima facie that Islam does condone slavery and which can only occur by taking captives. (But as someone already pointed out, Muslims may only engage in defensive fighting). However, even a slave women must be sought in marriage - though the opinion of others is that it is nothing short of the institutionalization of sex-slavery and concubinage.
But on a more thorough reading of the Quran one can see that slavery is discouraged.
please keep your haditherized translation of the quran to yourself and. Secondly if you are such a huge supporter of slavery, than sell yourself to me, I really wanna buy you because I need someone to clean my toilet.