What are the rights of non-muslims?
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Depends on who you talk to and what "beliefs" you are talking about.
Traditional Sunni Islam, you can't even eat with the left hand with out a huge argument, I have seen women smack a child's hand red over this, which makes me mad! It is a child and it is not the end of the world!
Partner's with God .. well no.
Besides what is the non-muslim/muslim thing? Islam is not a religion of treat Muslims good and everyone else like crap.
Being Muslim is not that hard. You have the basics from the Qur'an, if you follow them then in your heart and way of life you are Muslim. I have family members who are Christians, that act more Muslim than most Muslims I know
Islam is actually not a religion of any kind. You should read the articles on the website on Abdun Nur's signature
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Salaam,
a Muslim is an invented concept in its common understanding, a believer is a person who believes the truth, any truth based upon investigation and the application of reason, who is willing to reject any and all proved falsehoods when the evidence and reason prove them so, a non-believer is a person who rejects a truth to hold fast to a dogma, indoctrination, imposition, invention or falsehood, someone who seldom applies reason or investigates the evidence beyond a superficial level.
Islam is a Deen not a religion.
Who are you to judge another, to make the distinction between a believer in truth and a non-believer in truth?
We are each one of us equal under natural prescriptive law, as natural rights are that which have the same force among all mankind as we are all in sight of the law created equal in dignity, privilege, benefit, nobility, value; and vary only in knowledge and skills.
I'm borrowing the bold
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Islam is of course a religion, and it has a deen.
The reason I regard Islam as a religion WITH a deen is that whilst there is a deen (system), there is a divine aura about it (religion).
A deen may lead to a decent world, assuming it is intended for that, and that people follow it for that reason. However, from empirical observation I conclude that we do not need instructions to recognise ?what is best?.
There is no inconsistency between self-evidence and self-evident instructions (judged by their intention). Nevertheless, let us take the example of 100 hidings.
I agree that adultery is ?bad?. The Qur?an does not say why adultery is bad, but I agree with the Qur?an that it should not be practiced. Therefore I project my reasoning as the intention of the Qur?an.
Suppose I suppose that the punishment for proven adultery should be public exposure.
The Qur?an mandates public exposure + 100 hidings.
I agree with the Qur?anic attitude to adultery, but I disagree with the rigidity of its laws. If I do not implement 100 hidings, I disobey the deen thus expose my disbelief in the religion.
My intention to prevent adultery is the same, but I recognise people will do what they want, and that society?s attitude to adultery does not depend on what the Qur?an says, but what people are willing to accept (e.g. the Qur?an?s or my punishment). This means that the punishment of 100 hidings is the result of other people?s willingness to implement it, thus a result of human opinion/desire which I am self-evidently free to argue with. Even if 100 hidings achieves the purpose of preventing adultery, since its implementation depends on human desire and opinion of the Qur?an, I disagree that we have to do 100.
The other obvious example is inheritance, where fixed portions are specified on threat of Hell (413-14). This is odd since 2180 suggests we use our brain (via a will), but does not trust society to do it equitably (411-12).
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Wrong, Islam is a DEEN in front of which ALL religions are worthless.
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Islam is of course a religion, and it has a deen.
The reason I regard Islam as a religion WITH a deen is that whilst there is a deen (system), there is a divine aura about it (religion).
What is "Divine Aura"?
And Deen is 'judgement'/'attitude'/'opinion' (towards something)... and not a 'sect' and/or 'religion'.
Salam / Peace
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What is "Divine Aura"?
And Deen is 'judgement'/'attitude'/'opinion' (towards something)... and not a 'sect' and/or 'religion'.
Salam / Peace
"Divine Aura" was written as "divine aura". Unlike "Divine Aura", it means what the words mean. I of course use it to describe the belief in divinity which is part of Islam. Thus Islam is a religion.
I assume "judgement" is the best, as in judgement which leads to a system. That fits with 839 etc..
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Allah does not like unbelief, so in His eyes they are not equal. However, Muslims are ordered to be equitable (58, 608 etc.). Thus Muslims must adhere to Allah's will.
2138, 532 and 545 taken together indicate that the penalty for killing an innocent person is equal regardless of being Muslim or not.
They are allowed in Mecca (2225). 928 refers to specific people.
P.S. Here is a good explanation of 2138, if you are asked
"Killing one is like killing all of humanity, so it is a matter of justice (256. Obviously it does not mean that if a man kills a female, he must sacrifice one of ?his? females (that?s not justice). Simply, if a free man kills a free man, he is subject to the penalty (unless forgiven). If a free man kills a slave, he is still subject although there may be other factors/considerations (maybe the servant was a captive serving punishment for a bad crime). If a man kills a woman, he will be subject to the penalty. If a woman kills a man, there will possibly be forgiveness. If she kills a woman, maybe different.
In all circumstances there may be room for forgiveness, but basically ?equality? is being emphasised. ?Free man for a free man?? emphasises that not all cases are the same (e.g. free man for criminal)."
Hello mesmorial. I have noted several times as well on your youtube account that you are an half sectarian sunni and a half quranist. Or maybe you are just confused. In any case you mix traditional sunni islam into quran.
Let me just demonstrate my point by asking you a simple question to your above statement of having the ''non-muslims'' into mekka Can you please tell me from quran 2225 where the word 'mekka' is?
Peace
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As I mentioned, it is a religion. If you are going to say I am wrong, please offer proof and address my counters.
Again you act as a sunni. Brother Kaikonred is absolutely correct that deen does not mean religion and even some sunnies admit that. Well bring YOUR proof that deen means religion.
peace
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What are the rights of non-Muslims? What are the duties of Muslims toward non-Muslim (people of the book or not)?
the non-muslims have ALL the same rights as muslims according to me and other quranists(with the exceptions of half-sunnis and half-quranists)
Peace
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Dear Maha;
You may not have visited my YT in a while.
I am not a Muslim, and have not been for a while.
Thus 2225 does not actually matter to me whether it is Mecca or not. Perhaps you should ask the other person why they asked about Mecca and Medinam rather than directing your queston at me.
As for religion and deen, my statement was that the religion had a deen, thus I never argued that they were the same.
Please explain why accepting a traditional understanding (such as "Mecca" as many "Quranists" do) makes one even part "sunni". It is considered un-Qur'anic to use the term "Quranist".
I am interested in the logic which motivated your post.
@ Jafar
Divinity is relating to a creator God whereby you feel that SPECIFIC practice (deen, including what I mentioned) will give you benefit (religion).
You will have to answer my post before asking questions, since it provides the rationale.
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Dear Maha;
You may not have visited my YT in a while.
I am not a Muslim, and have not been for a while.
Thus 2225 does not actually matter to me whether it is Mecca or not. Perhaps you should ask the other person why they asked about Mecca and Medinam rather than directing your queston at me.
As for religion and deen, my statement was that the religion had a deen, thus I never argued that they were the same.
Please explain why accepting a traditional understanding (such as "Mecca" as many "Quranists" do) makes one even part "sunni". It is considered un-Qur'anic to use the term "Quranist".
I am interested in the logic which motivated your post.
@ Jafar
Divinity is relating to a creator God whereby you feel that SPECIFIC practice (deen, including what I mentioned) will give you benefit (religion).
You will have to answer my post before asking questions, since it provides the rationale.
so i ask you again dear mesmorial, why you think you should teach others about a religion you dont believe in?
The other person did not asked for the quranic verse which you wrongfully presented to him. He just asked if non-muslims are allowed in mekka, which is an another question. Your ideas and talks are so flawed and confusing that its very hard to take you serious.
Secondly, there are religions without deen. Look at some eastern religions for evidence. And your defination of the word ''religion'' as something giving a benefit, is also flawed. And last but not least, not all religions requires a specific practice, neither does deen means a specific practice.
Peace
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I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
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I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
Shalom Aleikhem,
I can only answer the questions according to my understanding. I will try to answer them one by one with references. Let us begin
whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal
No. All are not equal. But it depends on what you mean by the question. Let me explain myself, why all are not equal.
987 As for those who believe and do good works, they are the best of creation
I do not recognize a rapist and a Saint to be equal. Neither are the blind and the seer the same. For the sake of practicality, all are not equal. There are good people and bad people. By the way, this has nothing to do with "how to treat innocent people".
Entering Mekkah
I dont know about Mekkah. But, as far as I understood, the restricted mosque there should not be trespassed by non-believers (92.
The restricted mosque is not a tourist spot. If I do not like your presence in my home or my room, this does not mean that I believe in inequality and injustice or discrimination. It is called Privacy. Any group should have the right to privacy provided that they are not harming others.
Greeting with PEACE
This is encouraged by the author of Qur'an (2427,1010,494,486).
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things
This tells me to be nice or nicer when "anyone" greets me with peace. Would you greet me with Peace ? I would have to apply the system taught in that verse. So, in the context of "greeting" and thats even with "peace", your question only makes sense if I "ignore" Qur'an and follow my desire and dont greet you with peace even when you come in peace.
Justice
1733 And do not take a life, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earth.
So, the way I understood it, these teachings are for all. "Anyone"/"Whoever" . By saying that it was "murder" that you wanted to use as an example, you made me use these verses. I think you would agree with me that the author of Qur'an didnt say that when a muslim murders an innocent non-believer, the rule is different. Whoever sheds blood of innocent is bad according to the author.
If you do have time, go through the book (Qur'an). You can solve these issues yourself.
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
I would like to understand the rights of non-muslims in order to determine whether or not Islam truly teaches that all people are equal. If non-believers are not allowed into Makkah, or cannot be greeted with Salaam alaykum, or deserve the same justice that would apply if a believer was murdered, then Islam does not teach equality.
I fully agree with you. But islam is not a religion, hence being a muslim has nothing to do with what religion or sect you belong to.
Peace
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No. All are not equal. But it depends on what you mean by the question. Let me explain myself, why all are not equal.
987 As for those who believe and do good works, they are the best of creation
I do not recognize a rapist and a Saint to be equal. Neither are the blind and the seer the same. For the sake of practicality, all are not equal. There are good people and bad people. By the way, this has nothing to do with "how to treat innocent people".
A criminal is not equal with a obedient citizen.
But good explanation. Who are non-muslims by the way? is it people who are not quranist or people who do not consider themselves beloning to a muslim sect like sunnism, shiitism and so on?
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Maha;
so i ask you again dear mesmorial, why you think you should teach others about a religion you dont believe in?
Please do not lie to me by implying you ever asked that question before. Your last post thought I was Muslim.
The other person did not asked for the quranic verse which you wrongfully presented to him. He just asked if non-muslims are allowed in mekka, which is an another question.
It is normal and reasonable to assume that if the person thought Mecca was not the place, they would not be asking official rulings not in the Qur?an. However, since they felt there was a divine commandment relating to non-Muslims going to Mecca, they thought that Mecca had the qiblah.
Your ideas and talks are so flawed and confusing that its very hard to take you serious.
The same for you, except you are clearly lying and making things up. That is not Islamic.
Secondly, there are religions without deen. Look at some eastern religions for evidence.
That is not what we are talking about.
But nothing is more beneficial than avoiding Hell, yes?
And last but not least, not all religions requires a specific practice, neither does deen means a specific practice.
But the deen as sanctioned by the Qur?an does.
Peace
You did no answer my question. Please stop acting like that.
Cheers.
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mesmemorial
Please do not lie to me by implying you ever asked that question before. Your last post thought I was Muslim
So because you cannot answer my question you begin to accuse me of lying? Lol good try, but now answer my question instead of changing the topic. Why do you preach a religion for others in which you yourself dont believe in ? Why do you LIE to peope? Sometimes you are a muslim and sometimes you are not a muslim.. what do you lie to people mesmorial?
It is normal and reasonable to assume that if the person thought Mecca was not the place, they would not be asking official rulings not in the Qur?an. However, since they felt there was a divine commandment relating to non-Muslims going to Mecca, they thought that Mecca had the qiblah.
it doesnt matter what they thought or what they assumed. On What basis do YOU preach that the sacred mosque is in MEKKA?
The same for you, except you are clearly lying and making things up. That is not Islamic
You are such a hopeless imbecile , mesmorial. Remember that.
But nothing is more beneficial than avoiding Hell, yes?
why do you change the topic. The defination of religion is not 'being beneficial' . look at a Dictionary
But the deen as sanctioned by the Qur?an does.
please stop lying about quran, its a book you clearly know NOTHING about. Now I ask you again, on what basis do you claim that deen means religion ?
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Dear Maha;
I have only known you from a few posts, yet I?ve learnt more about you than you appear to have during your time of studying me. So here is my experience with you
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I had never known you before yesterday, yet you accuse me of acting like a Sunni-Qur?anist. It does not matter whether you thought I was Muslim or not (certainly wasn?t Sunni or ?Qur?anist?), but the point is that you must explain why people like Edip Yuksel and Ahmed Bahgat who follow a qiblah in Mecca are not likewise Sunni-Qur?anists? You did not answer my point relating to that.
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Secondly, you deliberately twisted my words by implying I had to prove ?religion? and ?deen? were the same when I had already clearly said that they were different.
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Thirdly, you lie to my face by implying you ALREADY asked me why I am teaching a religion that I don?t believe in (so why did you use the word ?religion??).
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Fourthly, you say my logic is flawed and that I cannot be taken seriously, meantime having answered none of my points whilst making things up. You seem to have a hidden agenda, and you label me a hopeless imbecile.
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Fifthly, during this time you adopted a spiteful and targeted approach (with me). Now you accuse me of lying.
I do not know you, so if you have a problem with me, rather than targeting me here, come onto my YouTube. I do not know if you think the others will help you here because you call yourself ?Qur?anist? (whilst I say I am not Muslim), but I?m almost used to this. If I want to talk to such people, I would normally go to SunniForum or Faithfreedom.org. But I am not going to leave here just because you want me to. You should perhaps have ?researched? me more before trying this.
If you are too embarassed to explain yourself here, just remember my offer.
Cheers.
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