God Alone Flag Design
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Salam,
So interesting!SoA its not just you, it really looks like Israels flag but I can see the reason and it makes sense in case the question of a flag is current.
Yet I am inclined to agree with Zulf about us and them mentality and what that may cause.
Labels are exclusive and create separation. In any case, what is important is not belonging (which causes separation), but intention and action.
Very well said bravo
Peace to you all peace
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Yes, it does resembe an Israeli flag. Perhaps God-alone Movement should follow the lead of Unitarian and Universalist Christians. A wide range of views are supported within the movement, and they do have symbolism....
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Peace,
Maybe so, and maybe with good reason. Jesus said in the gospels that "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you , and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matt. 2143)."
Lol, at least the flag wouldn't have to change too much under the new management. rotfl
-Joel
Shalom Aleikhom,
I dont know if its just me, but it looks very much similar to Israel's flag.
Peace
----------- Student of Allah -
Peace Layth and all,
I myself likes the idea of creating a flag... it's an identity thing... but at the same time I personally don't think it would have the desired result as a unifying symbol for the God Alone movement. I believe it is useless and a waste of effort to create such a flag, or other symbol, or name for that matter, simply because the concept of God Alone is too universal and cannot be captured like that
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I think it would be impossible to define exactly what would come under this flag. What is God Alone, and who is supposed to create the definition? Just look at this forum... so many people on the God Alone side and still they cannot agree on so many things.... and many people love endless ego debates, splitting hair and getting nowhere, deliberately misunderstanding each other.
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If the flag is created and starts having "members"... it is likely that factions would arise that would start disputing the rights of the flag... all claiming to be the right "owners", throwing mud and insults in each others' faces.... exactly like all religious sects of today and the history. This is how the story goes in this world, sadly. I don't think the mix of ego and us-vs-them thinking would allow this flag to exist in peace.
Personally I have stopped calling myself anything but a fellow human being and a believer in God, for similar reasons. All other labels will cause a wrong idea of who I am and what I stand for. Labels are exclusive and create separation. In any case, what is important is not belonging (which causes separation), but intention and action.
Sorry to come with such a negative outlook... but that's what I believe is the case.
Other than that, I love the idea itself. I'm rather fond of symbols and graphics in general.Peace
The differences in this forum are not major differences. The attitude about differences comes from the religious backgrounds people come from. Most of us were not born into a Quranist faith but came to it from other religious background. The Koran tolerates differences (ikhtilaf) but does not tolerate seperation(tafreeq). The differences we have are not core issues but tend to be minor issues that some may see as major. Whatever the Koran does not explicitly talk about and explain is not a major issue. Overall I have noticed that those who come from a Muslim background have problems handling differences. In any case differences must never lead to seperation. The Koran warned about communities who let their differences lead to seperation. The Koran shound unite us and our differences simply make the Koranist persuasion much more attractive and flexible and adaptive. The Koran says any ikhtilaf will be dealt with by God on judgement day so we should never let ikhtilaf lead to tafreeq or that will be our end.
To be honest I have not seen differences here that led to people seperating from one another and forming groups and sects based on these differences. The only ones I know that have seperated themselves from others are the submitters crowd but not all of them. Its usually when we add some other religious authority other than the Koran where the problem comes. When we make something binding that the Koran did not.
As far as a Quranist flag, that depends on what the flag is for. Are we talking about a nation's flag or just a group's flag. I don't know of any religion that has a flag. A good symbol however can be a verse from the Koran.
Real Quranist can be divided as such
- Those who accept the Koran and previous scriptures as authority.
- Those who accept only the Koran as authority.
- Those who accept the Koran and the rituals of Muslims
- Thos who accept the Koran and the rituals and also some hadiths that does not contradict the Koran.
All reject abrogation of any Quranic verse and all accept than only matters mentioned explicitly in the Koran should be binding and all agree that anything that contradicts whats explicit in the Koran is to be rejected outright. Any breaking of this will lead to seperation. I have not seen that here however.
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Flag of Israel?
even if i'm an atheist i hate that flag seriouslyand i hate it not because i have to (doctrine or sumthing) but because what the nation DID to the Children of Palestine.
Pharisaic nation is what israel is. Their loyalty is to the Talmud.
Jesus Pronounces Seven Woes Upon the Scribes and Pharisees, 2313-36
In this section, climaxing the controversy of Christ with the scribes and Pharisees, seven solemn woes are pronounced upon them. Only Matthew records this scathing denunciation of these religious leaders of the Jews. These woes, in contrast to the Beatitudes, denounce false religion as utterly abhorrent to God and worthy of severe condemnation. No passage in the Bible is more biting, more pointed, or more severe than this pronouncement of Christ upon the Pharisees. It is significant that He singled them out, as opposed to the Sadducees, who were more liberal, and the Herodians, who were the politicians. The Pharisees, while attempting to honor the Word of God and manifesting an extreme form of religious observance, were actually the farthest from God.
His first condemnation, in 2313, related to the fact that they did all they could to shut out others. False religion and pretense are always the worst enemies of the truth and are far more dangerous than immorality or indifference. As the religious leaders of the Jews, they were held guilty before God of blocking the way for others seeking to enter into the kingdom of God.
In verse 14, another woe is indicated, in which the scribes and Pharisees were charged with devouring widows? houses and making long prayers to impress others. The verse, however, is omitted in most manuscripts and probably should not be considered as rightly a portion of this Scripture. It may have been inserted from Mark 1240 and Luke 2047.117 If it is included, it would bring the total woes to eight instead of seven.
In Matthew 2315, the second woe is mentioned. In this one, the Pharisees were described as extremely energetic on both land and sea to make proselytes of the Jewish religion. But when they were successful, Jesus charged, ?Ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.? In referring to hell, Christ used the word Geenna or Gehenna, a reference to eternal damnation, rather than to Hades, the temporary abode of the wicked in the intermediate state. The Pharisees and their proselytes both would end up in eternal damnation.
A third woe is mentioned in verse 16, based on the trickery of the Pharisees, who held that swearing by the gold of the temple bound the oath. Jesus denounced them as both fools and blind, as obviously the gold was meaningless unless it was sanctified by the temple, and the gift on the altar was meaningless unless it was given significance by the altar. Repeating His accusation, He declared in verse 19, ?Ye fools and blind for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?? Accordingly, Christ concluded that an oath based on the temple was binding, just as an oath based on heaven carried with it the significance of the throne of God and God who sits on the throne.
The fourth woe, mentioned in verse 23, has to do with hypocrisy in tithing. While they were so concerned in paying the tithe down to the smallest spice or seed, they omitted the really important matters obeying the law and manifesting mercy and faith. He repeated His charge that they were blind, straining out a gnat or a small insect, but swallowing a camel. He was, of course, speaking figuratively of their dealing with minutiae but omitting the really important things.
The fifth woe is pronounced in verse 25, where He repeated the charge that they were hypocrites, merely actors acting a part. He charged them with cleaning the outside of the cup and the platter but being unconcerned about what was inside, where cleanliness really matters. He meant by this that they were concerned with ceremonial cleanliness, that which men observed, but not really concerned with holiness. While observing ceremonial rites of cleansing, they were not above extortion and excess.
In verse 27, Jesus mentioned the sixth woe. In this one, He described them as whited sepulchres, graves that had been made beautiful and white on the outside but within were full of dead men?s bones. This illustrated that the Pharisees were outwardly righteous but inwardly full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Jesus concluded with the seventh woe, in verse 29, in which He charged them with building tombs of the prophets and garnishing them with decorations and claiming that they would not be partakers with their fathers in martyring prophets. Jesus called their very witness to account, that they were the children of those who killed the prophets, and He told them, in verse 32, ?Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.? In other words, do what your fathers did and even do worse. Jesus was, of course, referring to their intent to kill Him and to their later persecution of the church.
In the severest terms, in verse 33, Jesus addressed them, ?Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?? He described the scribes and Pharisees as poisonous snakes, destined for terrible judgment which would be theirs in hell, specifically Gehenna, the place of eternal punishment.
Jesus declared, in verse 34, that He would send to them prophets, wise men, and scribes who were also believers. Some of them they would persecute, some they would scourge and drive out of the synagogue, and others they would kill and crucify. Their works would justify bringing upon them the just condemnation coming from all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from the time of righteous Abel, killed by Cain (Gen 4, to the martyrdom of Zacharias, the son of Barachias (2 Ch 2420-22). Zacharias, mentioned as the son of Jehoiada in 2 Chronicles 2420, probably was the grandson of the priest and Barachias was his actual father. Richard Glover, in his outline of Matthew 23, summarizes the characteristics of hypocrisy in these words, ?Hypocrisy is a hard taskmaster?lives only for the praise of men?concerns itself with the small things of religion?deals with externals chiefly?reveres only what is dead?finds a fearful judgment.?118
The present sad chapter in the days of Israel?s apostasy was the climax of the religious rulers? long rejection of the things of God. Jesus solemnly pronounced that all these acts of rejection of God and His prophets would cause judgment to come upon this generation, which they would bring to culmination by their rejection of God?s only Son. This prophecy was tragically fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the children of Israel over the face of the earth. Jerusalem, the city of God, and the magnificent temple, the center of their worship, were to lay in ashes as an eloquent reminder that divine judgment on hypocrisy and sin is inevitable.
http//bible.org/seriespage/chapter-23-jesus-condemns-scribes-and-pharisees
Matt 2331-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"
Matt 231-5 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men."
Matt 1514 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
Matt 2313 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."
Mark 75-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
Matt 2325-26 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
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hi Andantino,
man you are sayin that u r hating .... ?
i want to ask here in the form, is it Right to hate or to be hated??
me 2 sometimes say that i hate bla bla.... i hate when it beomes disgusting u know... i know it is normal but is it right?
objectivily saying, to hate or to love is a sense, while good sense is love.. and bad one is "hate". I think we shall not hate anybody or anything, we shall try to make/change our sense perception. we shall understand it. by understanding it will get more sensible what we are calling it
"hate". GOD says to us to pardon and be patience. so to hate is not rational. to hate is very sensible.
and what happens to palestine is not to be hated it should be changed. wich means !!!!!!!!!!GO AND FIGHT!!!! elektro -
hi Andantino,
man you are sayin that u r hating .... ?
i want to ask here in the form, is it Right to hate or to be hated??
me 2 sometimes say that i hate bla bla.... i hate when it beomes disgusting u know... i know it is normal but is it right?
objectivily saying, to hate or to love is a sense, while good sense is love.. and bad one is "hate". I think we shall not hate anybody or anything, we shall try to make/change our sense perception. we shall understand it. by understanding it will get more sensible what we are calling it
"hate". GOD says to us to pardon and be patience. so to hate is not rational. to hate is very sensible.
and what happens to palestine is not to be hated it should be changed. wich means !!!!!!!!!!GO AND FIGHT!!!! elektroi got ur point, and my rejection upon the flag of Quranist above, is a part of my "Go and Fight" peace
And i don't like the state of Israel (194 NOT because i hate jews or christian or whoever.. religion/belief plays no role here.
every human that has a sense of humanity, they won't support any of Israeli foreign policy. -
Andantino,
I think humanity based on religion/belief. so Israeli policy has a owntheir way of playing ; do u agree with me?
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Salam Bigmo.
I really dont want to high jack the flag thread, but I felt I need to clarify something.
Overall I have noticed that those who come from a Muslim background have problems handling differences.
I see why you tend to think its about Muslim societies, but in fact its about collectivist versus individualist societies. I have experienced both. The collectivist society dont look at and dont judge only you, your deeds represent your family and every wrong thing you do would be reflected on your family, in worst cases the entire clan. Thats why it looks like its about Muslim societies because especially Middle Eastern countries have this collectivist clan mentality and they are Muslim. On the other hand I dont know how Malaysia, Indonesia and other smaller Asian Mulsim countries work. Are those as collectivist as the Middle Easterns?
In the Quran God is giving us the possibility to be individuals in our faith, how we understand and perform Islam within the scope of Quran. But it is even encouraging us to be collectivists by caring for and helping each other, being nice and tolerant towards each other as an "ummah".
In any case differences must never lead to seperation. The Koran warned about communities who let their differences lead to seperation. The Koran shound unite us and our differences simply make the Koranist persuasion much more attractive and flexible and adaptive. The Koran says any ikhtilaf will be dealt with by God on judgement day so we should never let ikhtilaf lead to tafreeq or that will be our end.
Well said!
Separation (tafreeq) is a possible scenario if we dont get rid of our traditions and egos. Thats a hard but extremely important task for muslims (not Shia or Sunna) and the future of Islam.
peace
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The collectivist society dont look at and dont judge only you, your deeds represent your family and every wrong thing you do would be reflected on your family, in worst cases the entire clan. Thats why it looks like its about Muslim societies because especially Middle Eastern countries have this collectivist clan mentality and they are Muslim.
Death to all Jews!!! The only good Jews is a dead Jew!
Death to all Arabs!!! The only good Arabs is a dead Arab!And the Jews as well... apparently.. share the same mentality as their cousins..
On the other hand I dont know how Malaysia, Indonesia and other smaller Asian Mulsim countries work. Are those as collectivist as the Middle Easterns?
Far easterner folks such as Malays, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Indonesians are much better on tolerance.. no buddhist harass another buddhist because they have a different way on meditation, or speaking the mantra in a non-Pali language. And there are no standardized form of meditation / praying in eastern cultures.. that is before the coming of Christianism and Sunniism and other sectarian culture from the 'west'.....
Salam / Peace
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Here is my suggestion as a flag ), which I included in Peacemakers Constituion, drafted by Layth and me
The dimensions of Peaceland?s flag will be in the golden ratio, representing our respect for nature. A human fetus is located in the center of nineteen hexagons atop a black background, respectively representing our emphasis on intellectual and spiritual qualities of humanity and the importance of human life and integrity; the nineteen rules of deduction installed in our brains by our Creator, and the mystery, unity, and providence in our common and specific origins the Big Bang and a mother?s womb. The hexagons represent honeycomb and numerous lessons from bees work ethics, community work, efficiency, unity against aggressors, etcetera? The grey background represents wisdom and justice; the green color stands for our respect for the environment and ecological system, while the orange color represents joy and optimism. The hundred-and-fourteen stars represent the number of stable elements in our universe, and our progressive values and aspirations.
http//19.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Flag-Peaceland-2.jpg
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Salam
If we are going to have a flag then it should be uniting. I know not everybody believe in 19, or see it as fundamental in Islam. I think the idea of honeycombs is nice, they are mentioned in the Quran and bees have very nice qualities as you say.
i dont understand why the stable elements are important to include in the flag? Are they only 114 or is there any which we maybe haven't discovered yet?
I think the flag should be more simple and plain, maybe just coz Im influenced by the Scandinavian tasteSalam peace
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Well... On the other hand, flags have become modern idols serving as unifying symbols within a border and dividing symbols externally. Flags end up becoming packages of self-righteous, arrogant and tribalistic emotions accummulated by manipulative politicians... They are props to quickly hypnotize masses and motivate them to do whatever the politicians and the one percent want them to do... The most dangerous animals are those who wave a flag in one hand and a holy book in another.
You may have a little fun with flags here.
Peace,
Edip