Kiling in the Quran
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Peace everyone. Member Gnosis who posted in Paradox uncreated thread about homosexuals and atheists made me think about the subject of whom can you kill and why.
Now in Australia where I live and I would say in the most if not whole of the world the only time you can do that us in a just war or self defence if war is not involved.
However, in one of the stories in The Quran one of the servants of God among other things kills a youth because of what he might do. I find this part of the story rather a bit rough but not unbelievable.
Following are the verses that deal with it
1874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said "Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!"
1880 "And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we were concerned that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief."
I would like to ask others as to your reasoning in regards to this part of the story. So my question is Why was it ok for this servant if God to kill this youth?
Thanks
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Some people treats Quran as a 'constitution' / 'law book', because they find people did X in the Quran they think it's ok to do the same thing as well.
This is within context of "teaching wisdom to Moses".
A child was being killed out of nothing.. he had done nothing wrong.Sometime things which we see as 'bad' might be 'good', if we know the things which are 'unknown' such as the future.
If somebody murdered Adolf Hitler while he was a little boy, perhaps the murderer has done a 'good deed' for the world. Perhaps what he did has 'saved' millions of people being brutally murdered and burnt to death during WWII.
But, of course this do not 'justify' the murder of a little boy named Adolf, and the murderer when caught must be put to justice for murdering a little boy named Adolf.
Again, the whole context of this series of events, can only be answered and explained if the future is known..
The summary is
Everything happened for a reason.. and things which we recognized as 'bad' might be necessary to bring out the 'good' in the long run.Salam / Peace
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Those ayas are from sura al kahf (The Cave). They shock taken on their own or taken as a factual narration, but, as Jafar says, they should be taken in context.
al kahf sur
The whole of the sura is made up of parables, and the name of the sura itself is a parable. It suggests what we cannot grasp, visualize, comprehend on a the usual level. We do not grasp destiny, either our own or humanity's, or the universe's. We are not the wise man whom Musa accompanied, so we could never dream of killing anybody based on what we do not know, but we must always accept that God does know, and accept what befalls us or anybody as Him being absolute knower and us unknowers.There is no instructions for people here as to do this or that, it is a general conmination to trust God and trust the destiny He has appointed for everything, because He knows and we do not.
We are called to trust only Him, to forget about our powers and possessions, and trust only His power.
To do that will be a great service to ourselves.
Alhamdulil-lah!
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Peace everyone. Member Gnosis who posted in Paradox uncreated thread about homosexuals and atheists made me think about the subject of whom can you kill and why.
Now in Australia where I live and I would say in the most if not whole of the world the only time you can do that us in a just war or self defence if war is not involved.
However, in one of the stories in The Quran one of the servants of God among other things kills a youth because of what he might do. I find this part of the story rather a bit rough but not unbelievable.
Following are the verses that deal with it
1874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said "Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!"
1880 "And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we were concerned that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief."
I would like to ask others as to your reasoning in regards to this part of the story. So my question is Why was it ok for this servant if God to kill this youth?
Thanks
It is interesting you brought this up. You could have also brought this one also about Solomon and his huhud and Queen Sheeba
27.20. And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said "Why is it I see not the Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees? "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
Also in the same chapter regarding Solomon sending a letter to Sheeba and then warning her
27.28-31 "Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...(The queen) said "Ye chiefs! here is delivered to me - a letter worthy of respect. "It is from Solomon, and is (as follows) 'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful "Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"
The Queen then decided to send Solomon some gifts and see what he says. Solomon then tells his messengers with the Queen
27.36-37 Now when (the embassy) came to Solomon, he said "Will ye give me abundance in wealth? But that which Allah has given me is better than that which He has given you! Nay it is ye who rejoice in your gift! "Go back to them, and be sure we shall come to them with such hosts as they will never be able to meet We shall expel them from there in disgrace, and they will feel humbled (indeed)."
It is interesting that those who wish to accuse the Koran of forced conversions and violence never quote these verses. The reason is that both the Muslims who want to justify forced conversions and offensive wars and the Islam bashers who want to say Islam is violent rely on the Muhammedan verses. Verses like 9.5 and 9.29 etc. Both the Islam bashers and Sunnis and Shias look to the Muhammedan traditions when dealing with Islam. However as can be clearly seen, these verses about Moses and Solomon in the Koran certainly seem at face value an attempt to enforce forced cpnversions and offensive wars.
However in both these cases we do not have sufficient information to make judgement. In Moses's case we do not even know whether this traveler of his was human or jin. And he seems to be dealing with the metaphysical world. He seems disconnected with the physical world we live in. It is a very mysterious event. I have found no similar story in the previous scriptures regarding Moses.
As far as Solomon we do know the details between him and the Queen. We know the Bible talked about such encounter between the Queen of Sheeba and Solomon. Maybe Solomon assumed that they were wicked.
But unlike the situation between Muhammad and the pagans of Mecca, we do not have enough details to make judgement on these verses.
The hudhud upon returning to Solomon said
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But the Hoopoe tarried not far he (came up and) said "I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
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"I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.
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"I found her and her people worshipping the sun besides Allah. Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,-
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"(Kept them away from the Path), that they should not worship Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what ye hide and what ye reveal.
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"(Allah)!- there is no god but He!- Lord of the Throne Supreme!"
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(Solomon) said "Soon shall we see whether thou hast told the truth or lied!
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"Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...
Maybe the hudhud lied to Solomon about what he saw happening in Sheeba's kingdom. Maybe he told Solomon these were an oppressive people who oppressed people. So we don't know. The Koran then tells us Solomon met Sheeba and they got along fine. So maybe he threatened the hudhud because the hudhud had a history of lying to Solomon. Solomon did say we shall see what the hudhud said the truth or not. So we need more details.
As far as Moses, our concern here is what Moses said since he is the messenger of God the Koran talked about and gave authority and not his traveling companion . Moses said
18.74. Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
Here Moses was refering to the Koranic law of a soul for a soul(an eye for an eye and equal retribution.) A person can only be executed if he committed murder intentionally. The Koran also allowed exile from the community for such matters. This is what concerned us and not what his travel companion said since the travel companion had insights to the future that we do not have. More imporatantly its Moses who was sent by God to mankind and not his travel companion who knew Moses would not understand what he is doing. So how can we understand?
The Koran allowed killing either in self defense or when one commits murder intentionally. Moses was refering to that when he questioned his traveler and this is what should concern us or we will start speculating. Any form of legalism in the Koran must rely on explicit, and not implicit verses.
The Koran stipulates an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and a nose for a nose and a soul for a soul. Equal retribution and equity in justice. The punushment should always fit the crime. Sunni and Shia Islam, and also Judaism broke that law. They allow disproportionate justice which is not justice at all by claiming (the Jews) that a Jewish life is worth athousand gentile life. So a Jewish soul for a thousand gentile soul. This is why the Koran says they were told a life for a life but started commiting excesses. Meanhwile the Muslims intriduced capital punishment for all kinds of things other than intentional murder like adultery, apostasy and homosexuality. They also introduced amputation for theif which violates the hand for a hand justice of the Koran. This is refered to in the Koran as qist (equity or balance). That is why the symbol of justice is the balanced scale. The ounishment should fit the crime.
Muslims tell you that amputationg the their is so as to prevent stealing altogether, howvere the Koran never said justice should be done to prevent crime since crime will always exist. But the Koran ordered us when we judge between people to use qist and adl. Justice and equal retribution.
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Peace everyone. Member Gnosis who posted in Paradox uncreated thread about homosexuals and atheists made me think about the subject of whom can you kill and why.
Now in Australia where I live and I would say in the most if not whole of the world the only time you can do that us in a just war or self defence if war is not involved.
However, in one of the stories in The Quran one of the servants of God among other things kills a youth because of what he might do. I find this part of the story rather a bit rough but not unbelievable.
Following are the verses that deal with it
1874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said "Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!"
1880 "And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we were concerned that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief."
I would like to ask others as to your reasoning in regards to this part of the story. So my question is Why was it ok for this servant if God to kill this youth?
Thanks
Shalom Aleikhem,
First thing first.... interpretation matters. This is my approach
The key
1865 So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him knowledge from Us.
1866 Moses said to him "Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?"
1867 He said "You will not be able to have patience with me."The highlighted red part for me is the key to the story. The person did not go around killing anyone whom he guessed to be deserving death sentence. But, he was given the knowledge by God Himself. We do not know the future, so we can not take such actions. But God knows the future. Under any circumstance, He has the legal rights on His creations.
Amazingly, considering 1865 and reading the story, one message I get is "Do not go around being judgmental based on guesswork".
Peace
----------- Student of Allah