Caliphate system and Slavery
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You are a misgynist. As I stated before, most women get into prostitution for money
yes thats why a woman needs a husband... so he can feed her and clothe her.. otherwise she would opt for prostitution.... that is why god allowed us to have 4 wives in order to ensure that no woman would opt for prostitution in order to survive
It's not degrading to have sex with a man you don't want? Is it not degrading to have sex with a man when you are married to someone else?
please you sound so westerner. when allah has given us the permission to have female sex slaves then allah and his rasool has spoken and we are not allowed to question it. secondly when women become war booty their marriage is automatically cancelled
Reparations, but obviously that would be unlikely since it is viewed in Sunni Islam that disbelievers can be fought if they refuse Islam and Jizyah. It would have been better to leave them alone in the first place.
But then 1,5 billion people wont be muslims today.......
Muslim slave traders preferred black slaves and that's a fact. I can't believe you are justifying the catration of other humans.
as I told you the preferation of black slaves were due to keeping the modesty of muslim women and not due to racism... a muslim woman owning a black catred slave would not think about to have sex with him... but if you gave a muslim woman BRAD PITT as a slave sure she would fornicate with him all day and night long... do you want our women to act like slutes or what? In Islam adultery and fornication is a serious crime.
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This has to be the most ridiculous and desperate defense I have yet seen for the Sunnah. rotfl
The thing about Sunnis is they say that Muhamamd was the best of humans. The Koran tells us
2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.
So why didn't the best of humans fulfill that criteria the Quran laid out for righteousness and freed all the slaves he had?
They did the opposite of what the verse said, the elevated the Qibla and kept the slaves. rotfl
thats only a suggest... if it was fard the prophet wont have slaves... but the prophet freed many slaves as well.. in islam you can own slaves but to free them is also good.
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thats only a suggest... if it was fard the prophet wont have slaves... but the prophet freed many slaves as well.. in islam you can own slaves but to free them is also good.
But why did he not the want to be among the righteous and free all the salves he had? Isn't that what the most righteous person will do? If freeing slaves is an act of righteousness then you would expect the prophet to be the last not to do so. Notice verse 2.177 never said free your own slaves but free slaves. Nowhere in the Koran it even implied that believers had slaves of their own.
90.11. But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.
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And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?-
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(It is) freeing the bondman;
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Or the giving of food in a day of privation
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To the orphan with claims of relationship,
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Or to the indigent (down) in the dust.
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Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion.
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Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
Why did they not want to be among those who get saved from the drastic steep on judgment day if Muhammad and his companions were the best of mankind? Why did they not want to be among the best of the companions of the right? I know I would have surely freed the slaves I had since that is what i definently would want happen to me if i was a slave. Nobody wants to be a slave and lose his freedom. Nobody.
The reality to legailize slavery they had to make it a sunnah and by claiming that Muhammad and his companions (the best among mankind as they say) also owned slaves but treated them kind, this way its almost impossible for any authority to abolish slavery and claim its unislamic.
Hadith - Abu Dawood, Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab
When the prohibition of wine (was yet to be) declared, Umar said O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. So the following verse of Surat al-Baqarah revealed; "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say In them is great sin...." Umar was then called and it was recited to him. He said O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. Then the following verse of Surat an-Nisa' was revealed "O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged...." Thereafter the herald of the Apostle of Allah would call when the (congregational) prayer was performed Beware, one who is drunk should not come to prayer. Umar was again called and it was recited to him. He said O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. This verse was revealed "Will ye not then abstain?" Umar said We abstained.
Narrated Anas (raa) While I was waiting on my uncles and serving them with (wine prepared from) dates, and I was the youngest of them, it was said, "Alcoholic drinks have been prohibited." So they said (to me), "Throw it away." So I threw it away.
Drinks ? Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 69, Number 489
Muslims will tell you that when the verse about alcohol being a tool for the devil all the companions who used to drink suddenly threw away their bottles of wine.
So why when verse 2.177 came they did not free all their slaves out of the desire to be among the righteous ones?
They threw away their bottles of wine but kept the slaves. rotfl
Can you all imagine Muhammad preaching these verses of the Koran about freeing slaves to the pagans while the pagans are seeing him having slaves? rotfl
They will tell him why don't you free your slaves than came and tell us about freeing slaves. rotfl
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But why did he not the want to be among the righteous and free all the salves he had? Isn't that what the most righteous person will do? If freeing slaves is an act of righteousness then you would expect the prophet to be the last not to do so. Notice verse 2.177 never said free your own slaves but free slaves. Nowhere in the Koran it even implied that believers had slaves of their own.
90.11. But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.
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And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?-
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(It is) freeing the bondman;
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Or the giving of food in a day of privation
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To the orphan with claims of relationship,
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Or to the indigent (down) in the dust.
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Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion.
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Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
Why did they not want to be among those who get saved from the drastic steep on judgment day if Muhammad and his companions were the best of mankind? Why did they not want to be among the best of the companions of the right? I know I would have surely freed the slaves I had since that is what i definently would want happen to me if i was a slave. Nobody wants to be a slave and lose his freedom. Nobody.
The reality to legailize slavery they had to make it a sunnah and by claiming that Muhammad and his companions (the best among mankind as they say) also owned slaves but treated them kind, this way its almost impossible for any authority to abolish slavery and claim its unislamic.
Hadith - Abu Dawood, Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab
When the prohibition of wine (was yet to be) declared, Umar said O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. So the following verse of Surat al-Baqarah revealed; "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say In them is great sin...." Umar was then called and it was recited to him. He said O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. Then the following verse of Surat an-Nisa' was revealed "O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged...." Thereafter the herald of the Apostle of Allah would call when the (congregational) prayer was performed Beware, one who is drunk should not come to prayer. Umar was again called and it was recited to him. He said O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. This verse was revealed "Will ye not then abstain?" Umar said We abstained.
Narrated Anas (raa) While I was waiting on my uncles and serving them with (wine prepared from) dates, and I was the youngest of them, it was said, "Alcoholic drinks have been prohibited." So they said (to me), "Throw it away." So I threw it away.
Drinks ? Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 69, Number 489
Muslims will tell you that when the verse about alcohol being a tool for the devil all the companions who used to drink suddenly threw away their bottles of wine.
So why when verse 2.177 came they did not free all their slaves out of the desire to be among the righteous ones?
They threw away their bottles of wine but kept the slaves. rotfl
Can you all imagine Muhammad preaching these verses of the Koran about freeing slaves to the pagans while the pagans are seeing him having slaves? rotfl
They will tell him why don't you free your slaves than came and tell us about freeing slaves. rotfl
You have a point dude... I was also thinking about the same thing... that if freeing slaves were an act of righteous deeds our prophet sws would be the last person to own slaves.... but u see dude, the problem is that sunnah tells us that the prophet did actually own slaves although he freed some of them... and the prophet sws could never go against the quran coz the prophet sws was a living quran... so the reason perhaps could be that the prophet wanted to abolish slavery but was not able to do it because it was so rooted in the society? For instance alcohol wasn't prohibited all at once but was prohibited in stages.. first the sahaba karam could not pray while being drunk, second they were told that alcohol has more harm then benefit and finally the ban came when alcohol was declared the handwork of satan.. our prophet sws said Alcohol is the mother of all diseases.
So perhaps prophet sws was not able to abolish slavery but could only encourage his followers to treat their slaves well. -
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You have a point dude... I was also thinking about the same thing... that if freeing slaves were an act of righteous deeds our prophet sws would be the last person to own slaves.... but u see dude, the problem is that sunnah tells us that the prophet did actually own slaves although he freed some of them... and the prophet sws could never go against the quran coz the prophet sws was a living quran... so the reason perhaps could be that the prophet wanted to abolish slavery but was not able to do it because it was so rooted in the society? For instance alcohol wasn't prohibited all at once but was prohibited in stages.. first the sahaba karam could not pray while being drunk, second they were told that alcohol has more harm then benefit and finally the ban came when alcohol was declared the handwork of satan.. our prophet sws said Alcohol is the mother of all diseases.
So perhaps prophet sws was not able to abolish slavery but could only encourage his followers to treat their slaves well.Alcohol is also rooted in society even more than slavery so how was he able to abolish it? Even though slavery is no longer here, at least not like it used to be, alcohol is everywhere. Even if he was not able to abolish slavery he still could have freed the slaves he had. Who would stop him?
As far as prohibiting alcohol in koran, there is no indication that the Koran dealt with it in stages.
Koranist who believe alcohol is prohibited would probably believe it was prohibited from any of the verses that mentioned it equally.
- do not approach prayer while intoxicated could be seen as prohibition of alcohol since it can get you intoxicated and mess up yourprayer.
- alcohol has benefits but also harm and its benefits outweight its harm could be a reason why some Koranist believe it therefore should be prohibited for believers
- alcohol is the impurities from the devil because it can create hostilities between people and make them abandon their prayers can be seen as a prohibition from the danegrs that alcohol can produce.
But,
at the same time those Koranist who do not see alcohol as a prohibition can tell you all of the above can be avoided if people consume alcohol moderately and responsibly. After all not everyone reacts the same with alcohol. if eating disorder and obesity is your problem that eating fatty foods with high colesterol is prohibited for you. Money can create hostilities and make people forget their religious duties also. Should we abolish that also? So it can work both ways.
But to tell me upon hearing the verse about alcohol the sahabas would throw their bottles of wine away and yet ignore slavery is ridiculous. Plus aboloshing is not the point here but how you deal with your own slaves. There is no reason for anyone to continue owning a slave. Nobody will persecute anyone who wants to free his own slaves. These hadith made aboloshing slavery impossible and in fact encouraged slavery as now it was seen as a sunnah of the prophet and his companions.
Throughout Islamic history the Islamic empires never once discouraged slavery. Most muslims are not really aware of this as these things are never preached in Juma'a prayers.
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Alcohol is also rooted in society even more than slavery so how was he able to abolish it? Even though slavery is no longer here, at least not like it used to be, alcohol is everywhere. Even if he was not able to abolish slavery he still could have freed the slaves he had. Who would stop him?
As far as prohibiting alcohol in koran, there is no indication that the Koran dealt with it in stages.
Koranist who believe alcohol is prohibited would probably believe it was prohibited from any of the verses that mentioned it equally.
- do not approach prayer while intoxicated could be seen as prohibition of alcohol since it can get you intoxicated and mess up yourprayer.
- alcohol has benefits but also harm and its benefits outweight its harm could be a reason why some Koranist believe it therefore should be prohibited for believers
- alcohol is the impurities from the devil because it can create hostilities between people and make them abandon their prayers can be seen as a prohibition from the danegrs that alcohol can produce.
But,
at the same time those Koranist who do not see alcohol as a prohibition can tell you all of the above can be avoided if people consume alcohol moderately and responsibly. After all not everyone reacts the same with alcohol. if eating disorder and obesity is your problem that eating fatty foods with high colesterol is prohibited for you. Money can create hostilities and make people forget their religious duties also. Should we abolish that also? So it can work both ways.
But to tell me upon hearing the verse about alcohol the sahabas would throw their bottles of wine away and yet ignore slavery is ridiculous. Plus aboloshing is not the point here but how you deal with your own slaves. There is no reason for anyone to continue owning a slave. Nobody will persecute anyone who wants to free his own slaves. These hadith made aboloshing slavery impossible and in fact encouraged slavery as now it was seen as a sunnah of the prophet and his companions.
Throughout Islamic history the Islamic empires never once discouraged slavery. Most muslims are not really aware of this as these things are never preached in Juma'a prayers.
your point is valid. its a mystery for me whether slavery is a punishment of unbelief or a mercy for the captives.......... I mean, I really never understood why they didnt made the captives to employed workers instead of slaves...
but why do then some quranist support slavery? Even if I for the sake of argument if I forget the sunnah, would u please explain the following quranic verses to me
''and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 2433)"
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I could be wrong but I heard it means to take of them. Food, shelter, clothing. This way they don't go out to "sell" themselves for the basic rights and necessities, all human beings should have. If she wants to be chaste this means, don't rape her or force her into sex. I know you are young, so try to imagine being held down against your will crying and being scared, not to mention the pain that goes along with forced intercourse. Do you think our beloved Prophet did this?
Even the Quran states to the married man when he approaches his wife, "Your women are like your fertile fleids, so cultivate them as you wish, but ALWAYS do something BEAUTIFUL beforehand (to make them feel loved). Be aware (of your duty to God), knowing that you'll have to stand in His presence one day, so convey good news to the faithful. (2-223- Quran translation, Yayha Emerick)
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regarding Caliphate, please see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603475.msg292556#msg292556
in short, there is no islamic concept of an Islamic caliphate. Indeed, the first "caliphs" didn't even refer to themselves as caliphs, but rather, used the title 'amir ul momineen'. the caliph abdul malik is the one who declared himself 'khalifatullah' and deified the concept of the caliphate.
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''and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 2433)"
Tehere no slave girls mentionned there. It says fatayaat, that its, maidens. So do not force you maidens (that is, the maidens amongst you, it is not talking about property) into sex when they want chastity, in order to enjoy worldly pleasures and whoever forces them, God, after their being forced ghafuran rahiman.
I do not think it is talking about prostitution as in that the man would become a proxenet, I think it refers tot he very common phenomenon in all ages of men pursuing and harping on a woman in order to get her by hook or crook. That from that could ensue that she becomes a prostitute due to her becoming pregnant is a possibility and has also been a common phenomenon. I guess that is what Indelwyn is saying.
That the man would become a pronxenet of women under his care may be included in the preceeding aya, but would would obviously be something even worse and more disgusting.
It is interesting to note that bigha', the word that has been translated as prostitution is shortly followed by the word tabtaghuu (pursue the pleasures of this life) which is the same root as bigha'. It emphasizes that what they do is sacrifice maidens to their pleasure idol.
Salaam
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Tehere no slave girls mentionned there. It says fatayaat, that its, maidens. So do not force you maidens (that is, the maidens amongst you, it is not talking about property) into sex when they want chastity, in order to enjoy worldly pleasures and whoever forces them, God, after their being forced ghafuran rahiman.
I do not think it is talking about prostitution as in that the man would become a proxenet, I think it refers tot he very common phenomenon in all ages of men pursuing and harping on a woman in order to get her by hook or crook. That from that could ensue that she becomes a prostitute due to her becoming pregnant is a possibility and has also been a common phenomenon. I guess that is what Indelwyn is saying.
That the man would become a pronxenet of women under his care may be included in the preceeding aya, but would would obviously be something even worse and more disgusting.
It is interesting to note that bigha', the word that has been translated as prostitution is shortly followed by the word tabtaghuu (pursue the pleasures of this life) which is the same root as bigha'. It emphasizes that what they do is sacrifice maidens to their pleasure idol.
Salaam
my dear new friend maybe i am still young but arabic is my native language so you cannot play games with me.
Fatyaat is the plurat of 'fatah' which litterally means 'girl' thus fatyaat means 'girls'. So how did you came up with 'maidens'?
'Bagha' litterally means breaking limits. So how did you know it refers to something sexual?
'kra' litterally means to 'hate' .
So if it was not for the explanation of our prophet sws and sahaba karam the translation would be something like 'And dont hate your girls if they break certain limits as long as they desire to keep chaste etc.'
You just proved to me that ahadith are necessary in order to know the true meanings behind the verses.
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Is Quran written in the Kufic script and recited in Qurayshi dialect of Arabic ? It's my understanding that after the death of Prophet Muhammed there were power struggles for leadership and control of the Muslim ummah which resulted in the community splitting into different factions. The leaders of these factions began to produce hadith to support their claims to power and the religious priests (imams) began to obscure and manipulate the meanings of many Arabic words to further there own agendas as well. Different interpretations can become attached to words such as slave instead of servant. Also language and meanings evolve and change over time anyway. When I have looked at translations of "Maliki yawmid deen " in Al Fateha some translate as Master of the Day of Judgement and some translate it as Owner of the Day of Judgement. Which is correct? Does it depend on whether you view the world through male eyes or female eyes? May God forgive my errors.
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my dear new friend maybe i am still young but arabic is my native language so you cannot play games with me.
Fatyaat is the plurat of 'fatah' which litterally means 'girl' thus fatyaat means 'girls'. So how did you came up with 'maidens'?
'Bagha' litterally means breaking limits. So how did you know it refers to something sexual?
'kra' litterally means to 'hate' .
So if it was not for the explanation of our prophet sws and sahaba karam the translation would be something like 'And dont hate your girls if they break certain limits as long as they desire to keep chaste etc.'
You just proved to me that ahadith are necessary in order to know the true meanings behind the verses.
But what does fatiyat has to do with slaves? Plus there are tons of verses that the hadith does not explain. Hadiths mainly deal with Muhammad's life even though we have over 20 prophets mentioned in the Koran. Plus there are many verses we will never understand anyways. But the main and core issues the Koran explains. Whatever we neeed for our salvation is clearly explained.
3.7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding
Any ruling from the Koran must deal with the EXPLICIT and not implicit verses.
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obviously it is the interpretation and translation of bigha' as prostitution that starts setting the meaning of that part of the aya as "sexual". It is rediculous to come then and argue that it has no sexual connotation. If it hasen't, then why consider that it is talking about prostitution. But arguing for the sake of arguing and coming on top seems to be very important for some people, or rathewr than that, to confuse things and twist everything that is said so that as to derail the debate is the job trolls are supposed to do, and as I said Mr. sunnahheroe is a troll and probably not even Arabic speaking.
Girs or maidens as to the meaning of the aya does not matter, but to put in a "slavees" where there are none" does matter, and the troll has been trying to push the idea that "of course slavery is uheld by the Qur'an" and what better for that than to to invent words and insert them in the Qur'an and insert them so as to make it look as if even proxenetism would be ok if the "girls" are not forced, they just like it. But apparently, for the troll the slaves can be forced, provided they are not prostituted.
So, for the readers, please read the messages themselves and not take the word of somebody else as to what they really say.
Salaam
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Fact Quran does not state slavery as haram or declare war to it. 'Riba' is a good example of how Quran seriously want to put stop to something bad.
Don't be funny Qur'an does declare war to oppression and does prohibit opression. Are you suggesting slavery is not opression?
I would like to see some of those who think it is ok the Qur'an does not prohibit slavery offer themselves for sale.
Salaam
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Don't be funny Qur'an does declare war to oppression and does prohibit opression. Are you suggesting slavery is not opression?
I would like to see some of those who think it is ok the Qur'an does not prohibit slavery offer themselves for sale.
Salaam
Maybe Quran doesn't see slavery as an oppression. In fact, it established law for slave.
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Maybe Quran doesn't see slavery as an oppression. In fact, it established law for slave.
?No? So why it promotes and imposes on believers the freeing of slaves and why doesn't if foresee for any legal means of acquiring them?
Law for slaves? Which law for slaves?
Salaam
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?No? So why it promotes and imposes on believers the freeing of slaves and why doesn't if foresee for any legal means of acquiring them?
Except for accidental killing(492), oath cancellation(589), estrangement of women(583) cases, other verses related to freeing slaves are more like encouragement to its believers. It is not a 'wajib' to free or 'haram' to keep slaves.
Law for slaves? Which law for slaves?
Unless you have better explanation on the Arabic meaning of 'ma malakat aymaanukum', verse 425 is a good example.