Caliphate system and Slavery
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Is Quran written in the Kufic script and recited in Qurayshi dialect of Arabic ? It's my understanding that after the death of Prophet Muhammed there were power struggles for leadership and control of the Muslim ummah which resulted in the community splitting into different factions. The leaders of these factions began to produce hadith to support their claims to power and the religious priests (imams) began to obscure and manipulate the meanings of many Arabic words to further there own agendas as well. Different interpretations can become attached to words such as slave instead of servant. Also language and meanings evolve and change over time anyway. When I have looked at translations of "Maliki yawmid deen " in Al Fateha some translate as Master of the Day of Judgement and some translate it as Owner of the Day of Judgement. Which is correct? Does it depend on whether you view the world through male eyes or female eyes? May God forgive my errors.
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my dear new friend maybe i am still young but arabic is my native language so you cannot play games with me.
Fatyaat is the plurat of 'fatah' which litterally means 'girl' thus fatyaat means 'girls'. So how did you came up with 'maidens'?
'Bagha' litterally means breaking limits. So how did you know it refers to something sexual?
'kra' litterally means to 'hate' .
So if it was not for the explanation of our prophet sws and sahaba karam the translation would be something like 'And dont hate your girls if they break certain limits as long as they desire to keep chaste etc.'
You just proved to me that ahadith are necessary in order to know the true meanings behind the verses.
But what does fatiyat has to do with slaves? Plus there are tons of verses that the hadith does not explain. Hadiths mainly deal with Muhammad's life even though we have over 20 prophets mentioned in the Koran. Plus there are many verses we will never understand anyways. But the main and core issues the Koran explains. Whatever we neeed for our salvation is clearly explained.
3.7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding
Any ruling from the Koran must deal with the EXPLICIT and not implicit verses.
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obviously it is the interpretation and translation of bigha' as prostitution that starts setting the meaning of that part of the aya as "sexual". It is rediculous to come then and argue that it has no sexual connotation. If it hasen't, then why consider that it is talking about prostitution. But arguing for the sake of arguing and coming on top seems to be very important for some people, or rathewr than that, to confuse things and twist everything that is said so that as to derail the debate is the job trolls are supposed to do, and as I said Mr. sunnahheroe is a troll and probably not even Arabic speaking.
Girs or maidens as to the meaning of the aya does not matter, but to put in a "slavees" where there are none" does matter, and the troll has been trying to push the idea that "of course slavery is uheld by the Qur'an" and what better for that than to to invent words and insert them in the Qur'an and insert them so as to make it look as if even proxenetism would be ok if the "girls" are not forced, they just like it. But apparently, for the troll the slaves can be forced, provided they are not prostituted.
So, for the readers, please read the messages themselves and not take the word of somebody else as to what they really say.
Salaam
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Fact Quran does not state slavery as haram or declare war to it. 'Riba' is a good example of how Quran seriously want to put stop to something bad.
Don't be funny Qur'an does declare war to oppression and does prohibit opression. Are you suggesting slavery is not opression?
I would like to see some of those who think it is ok the Qur'an does not prohibit slavery offer themselves for sale.
Salaam
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Don't be funny Qur'an does declare war to oppression and does prohibit opression. Are you suggesting slavery is not opression?
I would like to see some of those who think it is ok the Qur'an does not prohibit slavery offer themselves for sale.
Salaam
Maybe Quran doesn't see slavery as an oppression. In fact, it established law for slave.
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Maybe Quran doesn't see slavery as an oppression. In fact, it established law for slave.
?No? So why it promotes and imposes on believers the freeing of slaves and why doesn't if foresee for any legal means of acquiring them?
Law for slaves? Which law for slaves?
Salaam
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?No? So why it promotes and imposes on believers the freeing of slaves and why doesn't if foresee for any legal means of acquiring them?
Except for accidental killing(492), oath cancellation(589), estrangement of women(583) cases, other verses related to freeing slaves are more like encouragement to its believers. It is not a 'wajib' to free or 'haram' to keep slaves.
Law for slaves? Which law for slaves?
Unless you have better explanation on the Arabic meaning of 'ma malakat aymaanukum', verse 425 is a good example.
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Except for accidental killing(492), oath cancellation(589), estrangement of women(583) cases, other verses related to freeing slaves are more like encouragement to its believers. It is not a 'wajib' to free or 'haram' to keep slaves.
Unless you have better explanation on the Arabic meaning of 'ma malakat aymaanukum', verse 425 is a good example.
Huruf is right. Because Moses did refer to slavery as an oppression and the Koran did refer to Pharoah as an oppressor. Plus when the Koran talked about the freeing of slaves if never refered to the believers' slaves but other people's slaves. It never said free your slaves. It always assumed that believers never owned slaves but since most people are not believers the Koran can only order the believers. The Koran equated freeing of slaves with feeding the poor and the orphan.
90.11-18 But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep. And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?- (It is freeing the bondman; Or the giving of food in a day of privation To the orphan with claims of relationship, Or to the indigent (down) in the dust. Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion. Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
This is not encouraging, this is warning. Anotherwords the only to escape hell fire is so and so. This is a warning not encouragement.
Here the Koran says that to save yourself from judgement day freeing the slaves is one of them. The Koran said many times that those who do not feed the poor or abuse the orphans with go to hell. Those who don't spend on what God gave them will pay a price.
As far as wajib and haram this is Sunni terminology and not Koran.
As far as what Huruf said we can see it clearly here
Moses said "I did it then, when I was an ignorant . So I fled from you when I feared you. But my Lord has granted me right judgments of the affairs and Prophethood, and appointed me as one of the Messengers. And this is the past favor with which you reproach me that you have enslaved the children of Israel."
Moses certainly saw it like Huruf did.
There seems to be a confusion between encouraging and warning.
As far as encouraging the Koran did encourage people to forgive those who did them wrong as a charity but people have the right to demand retribution. This is encouraging. But feeding the poor is not a choice. So why should freeing slaves be a choice?
MMA does not mean slaves. If you think so that means the whole Koran has passed you by.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.0
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Except for accidental killing(492), oath cancellation(589), estrangement of women(583) cases, other verses related to freeing slaves are more like encouragement to its believers. It is not a 'wajib' to free or 'haram' to keep slaves.
Unless you have better explanation on the Arabic meaning of 'ma malakat aymaanukum', verse 425 is a good example.
Of course there is a much better explanation for Mamalakat aymanu... In fact the exlanation of it being slavery is no explanation at all but falsehood.
That you even take this as a possibility for slavery is shocking after all the ink that has gone in this very forum on that count. You can phantasize as much as you want on the Qur'an just as others have done before you. But that would show something about you or those who uphold such a preposterous view not about the Qur'an. We are told to take the best meaning of the Qur'an and not to look how we can make it mean the worst. It is your pick.
Salaam
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But what does fatiyat has to do with slaves? Plus there are tons of verses that the hadith does not explain. Hadiths mainly deal with Muhammad's life even though we have over 20 prophets mentioned in the Koran. Plus there are many verses we will never understand anyways. But the main and core issues the Koran explains. Whatever we neeed for our salvation is clearly explained.
3.7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding
Any ruling from the Koran must deal with the EXPLICIT and not implicit verses.
i never said that fatyat means slaves, dude. Fatyaat means young girls but then why do they quraniyoo translate fatyat to 'maidens' if they only accept quran?
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MMA does not mean slaves. If you think so that means the whole Koran has passed you by.
Of course there is a much better explanation for Mamalakat aymanu... In fact the exlanation of it being slavery is no explanation at all but falsehood.
Then why don't you both tell us what is MMA?
While waiting for both of you to come back with MMA meaning, others can study the below verses regarding usury (riba).
2275 Those who consume usury do not rise except as one being influenced by the touch of the devil. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While God has made trade lawful, and He has made usury unlawful. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
2276 God condemns usury, and He grants growth to the charities. And God does not love any wicked sinner.
2277 Those who believe and do good works, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification; they will have their recompense with their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2279 And if you will not do this, then be informed of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
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Then why don't you both tell us what is MMA?
While waiting for both of you to come back with MMA meaning, others can study the below verses regarding usury (riba).
2275 Those who consume usury do not rise except as one being influenced by the touch of the devil. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While God has made trade lawful, and He has made usury unlawful. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
2276 God condemns usury, and He grants growth to the charities. And God does not love any wicked sinner.
2277 Those who believe and do good works, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification; they will have their recompense with their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2279 And if you will not do this, then be informed of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
In Judaism
In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage#In_the_Bible
In ancient times, a concubine was a woman living in a lawful marriage arrangement with a man, but whose status was regarded as being less than a wife. Concubines were respected, had legal rights, and their children were regarded as legitimate, although the children of the wife (or wives) were most often given preference in matters of inheritance. While the inability of a wife to have children was a practical reason for the presence of a concubine in the family (e.g. Sarah suggested that her husband Abraham take Hagar as a concubine i.e. Genesis 161-3), the situation also sometimes reached absurd proportions, such as with Solomon who had 300 concubines along with his 700 wives (1 Kings 113).
Examples of concubines in Bible History"Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country." (Genesis 255-6 RSV)
"Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring, for he had many wives. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech." (Judges 830-31 RSV)
Four of the tribes of Israel (Dan and Naphtali, and Gad and Asher) originated from Jacob's concubines Bilhah and Zilpah. See Children of Jacob
"Now Saul had a concubine, whose name was Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah." (2 Samuel 37 RSV)
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem, after he came from Hebron; and more sons and daughters were born to David." (2 Samuel 513 RSV)
"Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened." So they pitched a tent for Absalom upon the roof; and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." (2 Samuel 1621-22 RSV)
"King Belshazzar made a great feast for a thousand of his lords, and drank wine in front of the thousand. Belshazzar, when he tasted the wine, commanded that the vessels of gold and of silver which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem be brought, that the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them." (Daniel 51-2 RSV) (see The Writing On The Wall)
http//www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010114.htm
24.33. Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves (MMA) ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
Now we can see why the Sunni translation of MMA is wrong. Its not slave but concubine. The Koran says if they ask you for a book in wriiting(marriage contract) than give them one.
There is no real difference between a wife and concubine. Hagar, Ismael's mother, was a concubine.
Sunnis took MMA to mean slave and assumed the deed is writing. Anyways there is nothing in Sunni Islam that says aperson has to free the slave if the slave asks for it. How can that be of course since there would have never been slaves ever. But that was not the case.
Slavery is the most despicable act a human can do. The reason why the Koran forbade usury is bacause usury is exploitation, so what you think about slavery?
The Koran never said do not rape but we know its wrong. neither did it say not have sex with animals, but we know its wrong.
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I'm still waiting for huruf to provide the meaning of MMA.
While doing so, can you tell me why are you using other kitab or 'hadith' to 'complete' the Quran? You condemned Sunnis for associating Hadith with Quran but at the same time you are doing the same thing.
In Judaism
In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage#In_the_Bible
In ancient times, a concubine was a woman living in a lawful marriage arrangement with a man, but whose status was regarded as being less than a wife. Concubines were respected, had legal rights, and their children were regarded as legitimate, although the children of the wife (or wives) were most often given preference in matters of inheritance. While the inability of a wife to have children was a practical reason for the presence of a concubine in the family (e.g. Sarah suggested that her husband Abraham take Hagar as a concubine i.e. Genesis 161-3), the situation also sometimes reached absurd proportions, such as with Solomon who had 300 concubines along with his 700 wives (1 Kings 113).
Examples of concubines in Bible History"Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country." (Genesis 255-6 RSV)
"Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring, for he had many wives. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech." (Judges 830-31 RSV)
Four of the tribes of Israel (Dan and Naphtali, and Gad and Asher) originated from Jacob's concubines Bilhah and Zilpah. See Children of Jacob
"Now Saul had a concubine, whose name was Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah." (2 Samuel 37 RSV)
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem, after he came from Hebron; and more sons and daughters were born to David." (2 Samuel 513 RSV)
"Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened." So they pitched a tent for Absalom upon the roof; and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." (2 Samuel 1621-22 RSV)
"King Belshazzar made a great feast for a thousand of his lords, and drank wine in front of the thousand. Belshazzar, when he tasted the wine, commanded that the vessels of gold and of silver which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem be brought, that the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them." (Daniel 51-2 RSV) (see The Writing On The Wall)
http//www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010114.htm
24.33. Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves (MMA) ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
Now we can see why the Sunni translation of MMA is wrong. Its not slave but concubine. The Koran says if they ask you for a book in wriiting(marriage contract) than give them one.
There is no real difference between a wife and concubine. Hagar, Ismael's mother, was a concubine.
Sunnis took MMA to mean slave and assumed the deed is writing. Anyways there is nothing in Sunni Islam that says aperson has to free the slave if the slave asks for it. How can that be of course since there would have never been slaves ever. But that was not the case.
Slavery is the most despicable act a human can do. The reason why the Koran forbade usury is bacause usury is exploitation, so what you think about slavery?
The Koran never said do not rape but we know its wrong. neither did it say not have sex with animals, but we know its wrong.
Using my common sense, slavery is a humiliation to humanity and it is wrong. Keeping concubine is a humiliation to women and it is wrong.
Study the verse 425, if a man come to asking to make your daughter as his concubine will you give your daughter to him?
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
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I'm still waiting for huruf to provide the meaning of MMA.
While doing so, can you tell me why are you using other kitab or 'hadith' to 'complete' the Quran? You condemned Sunnis for associating Hadith with Quran but at the same time you are doing the same thing.
Using my common sense, slavery is a humiliation to humanity and it is wrong. Keeping concubine is a humiliation to women and it is wrong.Study the verse 425, if a man come to asking to make your daughter as his concubine will you give your daughter to him?
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
I quoted many aspects of the Old Testament which the Quran recognized. There are many aspects of the Talmud that appeared in the Koran like Solomon and the hudhud, Abraham and the fire, Solomon and the Jinns and the story of the sons of Adam and the raven etc. MMA is one of the terms in the Koran that is not explicitly explained wbut there are many such terms in the Koran. The Koran tells us that if there are ambigious verses in the Koran we are not to speculate. Legalism can only be created in Islam through explicit verses. So I can use other religious traditions to explain the Koran but I would not use them to create a legal framework. But looking at the verses of the Koran regarding MMA the explanation we see in the Old Testament seems to fit. MMA is a marraige done by oath only. All mariages in the West are technically concubinage marries since there is no dowry. Some have said that MMA is also marriages without engagement. Manny marriages today are done like that.
As far as giving your daughter as a concubine well could you imagine having to ask a slave permisiion from her parents? This shows that MMA is not a slave.
From the Koran however it is clear concubinage is not a recomended marriage but so is polygamy which the Koran discouraged but allowed. Divorce is another issue where it is allowed but the Koran did not always recommend. This is life which is why the Koran talked about concubinage in the same context as poverty.
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I'm still waiting for huruf to provide the meaning of MMA.
If you are wating for that, you better sit down. I think I have already said in this thread, and you know it also, that there have been long and whole threads en this forums dealing with MMA where the question has been discussed extensively and in depth. If you are too lazy to go into that, and even though you may be believe in slavery, I am not going to do that work all over again so you can relax as an slave master while others run your errands.
Rather you have to prove satisfactorily that MMA are slaves. Do that. First do that. Find somewhere in the Qur'an where MMA being bought and sold is approved and quote the aya. Your imagination or that of others are not a proof of anything.
Salaam
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If you are wating for that, you better sit down. I think I have already said in this thread, and you know it also, that there have been long and whole threads en this forums dealing with MMA where the question has been discussed extensively and in depth. If you are too lazy to go into that, and even though you may be believe in slavery, I am not going to do that work all over again so you can relax as an slave master while others run your errands.
It is not just for me only but also for those that new to this forum. You have more than 1000 posts and hard for us to find which one you are referring too.
Rather you have to prove satisfactorily that MMA are slaves. Do that. First do that. Find somewhere in the Qur'an where MMA being bought and sold is approved and quote the aya. Your imagination or that of others are not a proof of anything.
The 425 referring to two class of female. First is free or independent female. Using common sense, opposite of free or independent female is slave female. No ayat available as Quran does not provide explicit explanation on the meaning of MMA. Bigmo indirectly agreed to this and that is the reason he used other source to understand the MMA. I had fulfilled your request and it is your turn now.
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As far as giving your daughter as a concubine well could you imagine having to ask a slave permisiion from her parents? This shows that MMA is not a slave.
Sorry I'm not the one who recognized concubine. It is you who did. The bolded 'your' in the above quote should be referring to you not me.
Please be more responsible. Responsibility is one of the Quran's good teaching.