Ulil amri in 4:59
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i don't understand arabic that well..
and i'm not clear yet about this..anybody could explain more?
Salaam Andantino,
You don't have to understand Arabic language to see the patterns set in AlQuraan. Please follow
459
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
If you note there are only two OBEY why another obey is missing? Why there is no mention of obey before those in authority among you as you may see obey before the word Allah and before the word AlRasool.
Hope you understand inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam Andantino,
You don't have to understand Arabic language to see the patterns set in AlQuraan. Please follow
459
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
If you note there are only two OBEY why another obey is missing? Why there is no mention of obey before those in authority among you as you may see obey before the word Allah and before the word AlRasool.
Hope you understand inshaAllah.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanSalaam brother,
I don't think that it's His messenger, but the messenger
And for andantino
note also that the second part doesn't contain "those in authority"
459 "...But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and the messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing."Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam brother,
I don't think that it's His messenger, but the messenger
And for andantino
note also that the second part doesn't contain "those in authority"
459 "...But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and the messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing."Salaam,
BenderThose whom were entrusted among you (minkum) and not on you (alaikum). This is teh difference between chosing leaders from among us and not leaders on us as the case with dictatorship.
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Salaam brother,
I don't think that it's His messenger, but the messenger
And for andantino
note also that the second part doesn't contain "those in authority"
459 "...But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and the messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing."Salaam,
BenderSalaam brother Bender,
Thanks for the correction bro. I have just copied and pasted FM's translation without noticing it.
May Allah guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
459
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
If you note there are only two OBEY why another obey is missing? Why there is no mention of obey before those in authority among you as you may see obey before the word Allah and before the word AlRasool.
Salam!
I dont think its relevant to seek a third OBEY there and/or think that it is necessary. The Quran is very compact, it has to be so. There is "and" between the messenger and uli alamr. Why is there a "wa" there if uli alamr are not related to alrasool and obeying him?
Peace!
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Rather there are kinds of obey first, one to God and one to the Messenger and ulilamr.
Then if you differ, differ with whom? ulilamr are not mention here any more, just refer to God and the messenger.
We wee in the first part, Go is alone and the messenger is joined to ulilamr, in the second part ulilamr are left out and differences are to be referred to God and the messenger.
Would the discrepancy include discrepancy with ulilamr?
In that case, for people after the death of the messenger we would be left with God alone. The ressource to ahadith or to any precedent or counsel would just be that, a tool, but not a solution, because, the Prophet cannot judge or hold a view or mediate, since he is not there.
Salaam
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Salam!
I dont think its relevant to seek a third OBEY there and/or think that it is necessary. The Quran is very compact, it has to be so. There is "and" between the messenger and uli alamr. Why is there a "wa" there if uli alamr are not related to alrasool and obeying him?
Peace!
Salaam Ala
If it is as you think then it will be like ... without before AlRAsool. But look at the aayat below
459
It could mean "O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority among you also."
That means and are asked to obey Allah and obey the messenger.
I understand it in this way because of 2285, please take a look at the usage.
2285
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers "We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny."You can notice the waw before the word AlMu'mineen.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam Ala
If it is as you think then it will be like ... without before AlRAsool. But look at the aayat below
459
It could mean "O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority among you also."
That means and are asked to obey Allah and obey the messenger.
I understand it in this way because of 2285, please take a look at the usage.
2285
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers "We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny."You can notice the waw before the word AlMu'mineen.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanYes, you are right and that explains also why for the differences it is referred to God and the Prophet and not to ulilalmr
Salaam
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Salaam
When I read my Dutch translation, it seems that the verse can get a whole other meaning if I just replace a punctuation mark (but I don't know if it's allowed ) )
It would become something like this
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger. And those in authority among you, if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
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Salaam
When I read my Dutch translation, it seems that the verse can get a whole other meaning if I just replace a punctuation mark (but I don't know if it's allowed ) )
It would become something like this
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger. And those in authority among you, if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
Salaam Aby Zakariya,
There are not stops in quranic Arabic, so it is a matter of sintaxis, and in this case I do not hink that the Arabic text warrants the interpretation you put forward.
My take of it is that we are given the sensible advise of accepting the judgement of those who are expert or are have as their craft or profession to deal with whatever matters, which of course does not preclude that we may enquire and jufdge as to the extent of their capacity as such experts, or persons in charge.
Salaam
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Ok thnx. It's just that the verse is always used by the salafi's to prove we have to obey king saud, the king of morocco,.... And those who rebel are wrong for doing so.
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Peace,
I believe 459 rejects anarchy as a form of government.
You, you those who believed, obey the god and obey the messenger, and of the order/command from you.
We should on the other hand see to it that our government doesn't violate our god-given rights.
So if you disputed in a thing, so return it to the god and the messenger, if you were believing with the god, and the day the last, that is better and best interpretation/explanation.
Abdelilah
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Peace AZ,
Ok thnx. It's just that the verse is always used by the salafi's to prove we have to obey king saud, the king of morocco,....
The word "Salafiyun" itself does not exist in the great reading nor in any of the Hadith books, but it's a modern word. There are other words derived from the same root in the great reading though, but they seem to convey something different from what the inventors of the term "Salafiyun" intended. More specifically, this is what we find in the great reading when we look for the word "salaf"
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Those who consume usury do not rise except as one being influenced by the devil's touch. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While the god has made trade lawful, and he has forbidden usury. Whoever has received understanding from his lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this/"salaf" and his case will be with the god. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the fire, in it they will abide eternally.
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And do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done/"salaf". It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and a bad path.
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and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done/"salaf".
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O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to value what was killed against the livestock, which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you, and to make it as a donation to reach the kaaba. Or, its expiation shall be in using it to feed the needy ones, while he abstains from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; the god forgives what has past/"salaf". And whosoever returns, then the god will seek vengeance on him. The god is noble, capable of vengeance.
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Say to the rejecters "If they cease, then what has passed before/"salaf" will be forgiven to them, and if they return to it, then the example of the previous generations has already been given."
As we can see very clearly, the word "salaf" in the great reading always refers to something ugly and abhorrent from the past. It is always linked to ugly, reprehensible and forbidden customs like usury, marrying what the fathers married of women, joining between two sisters, violating the forbidden and what the rejecters did in rejection. Is it a coincidence that all signs that mention "salaf" in the great reading, without exception link this term to something ugly and abhorrent?
In addition to that, the almighty god describes the transgressing people of pharaoh as "salaf"
4351-56. And pharaoh proclaimed among his people "O my people, do I not possess the kingship of Egypt, and these rivers that flow below me? Do you not see? Am I not better than this one who is despised and he can barely be understood? Why then are not golden bracelets bestowed on him, or the controllers are accompanying him?" He thus convinced his people, and they obeyed him; they were a wicked people. So when they persisted in opposing us, we sought revenge from them, and drowned them all.
We thus made them a thing of the past/"salaf", and an example for the others.According to Classical Arabic dictionaries or any dictionary for that matter, "salaf" simply denotes something from the past. Linguistically and logically this is indisputable. And even the Sunni scholars knew this. Therefore, when they talked about a particular "salaf" they called it "salaf-u-saalih". Why do they call it such? Because they know that there is also corrupt "salaf", which by the way is intended every time the word "salaf" is used in the the great reading, and therefore this extra classification was needed. Either way, the term "Salafiyun" does not exist at all in the great reading nor in the Hadith books of both Sunnis and Shiites.
PS a loose translation of a section from ayman's .
Abdelilah
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