Is the following fight in an Islamic spirit?
-
Ok, let's pretend you're not a troll but just a really stupid sunni, then what about Muhammad? You idiots believe Muhammad married Aisha at 6 years old and consumed the marriage at 9. Hypocrite aren't you?
just f++k off, okay? I really dont wanna waste more time on you, so stay away from me you perverse trolling kafir. Or I will contact the moderator.
-
I don't know about most other places, but some states here have a parental waiver for the period of time between 16-18 years old, where they have the ability to say that they consent to not having charged pressed against the person over 18. The law is in place in order to prosecute illicit relationships that may be based on some means of exploitation. Statistically, a person who engages in this kind of behavior with girls around late teens (15-17) is engaging in predatory behavior much the same way as a pedophile. While we emotionally find a pedophile more disgusting, an older adult who preys on teen girls is just as predatory and exploitative.
In other words, prosecutors often make exceptions for "Romeo and Juliet" situations, and use the statutes to put those who exploit teen girls in jail. It isn't black-and-white. Prosecutors can use aggravating and mitigating circumstances to determine a reasonable course of action.
Frankly, as someone who has worked with youth in juvenile systems, most 16-17 year old girls are not emotionally ready for the potential results of a sexual relationship - particularly one with an adult who just wants to make use of her body for a few times of fun. Perhaps you disagree, and that's fine. Just how I see it.
Peace,
JoelNo, it's not at all. It doesn't even make sense. A 17 year old doesn't differ to much from a 18, yet you would be put to jail even if she was a month younger, just because man-made laws say so. What you're doing is taking humans as your lord, agreeing with their awful methods that are just a lie for greedy people to lead the world. Did Allah say you can't have sex with let's say, a 16 year old? Or even a 15? They have a lot of lust and their body becomes able to seduce men for a reason. Yet man goes and say they need to be 18 for blah blah blah stupid reasons. It's just not right. They are so by Nature, and that's why the Natural Law with the guidance of Allah is the only right law there is.
-
Stay on topic and stop with the insults. Consider this a warning.
No, it's not at all. It doesn't even make sense. A 17 year old doesn't differ to much from a 18, yet you would be put to jail even if she was a month younger, just because man-made laws say so. What you're doing is taking humans as your lord, agreeing with their awful methods that are just a lie for greedy people to lead the world. Did Allah say you can't have sex with let's say, a 16 year old? Or even a 15? They have a lot of lust and their body becomes able to seduce men for a reason. Yet man goes and say they need to be 18 for blah blah blah stupid reasons. It's just not right. They are so by Nature, and that's why the Natural Law with the guidance of Allah is the only right law there is.
Did Allah say man cannot have any 'non-divine' laws? This argument is invalid.
Just because a 15 year old may be physically mature, doesn't mean they are mentally mature enough to deal with a sexual relationship and it's consequences. In most cases when a couple is ready to get married and are able to shoulder the responsibility of doing so, they are of an age that is older than 15. You won't find many men or women capable of getting married at 15. The sex part is moot then.
Obviously some will now raise the argument dude, my grandma was 12 when she got married, she had 16 kids and did just fine thanks. My response to that is sure, my grandpa worked in a coal factory since he was 6, other than the black phlegm he coughed up on his plate just before we had dinner, he did just fine thanks. Just because people adjust to crap, doesn't mean it's right and/or beneficial in the long run and for everyone because the 'success' stories in such cases are usually exceptions.
Bringing in 'natural law' and phrases such as 'by nature' is a dangerous thing. There is no such thing as she's hit puberty, that's it then. Do what thou wilt. 46 gives us an age of marriage, there are other verses calling it a solemn bond = serious business. How many teens would you say understand the nature of such contracts if they haven't even had much experience of living life yet? When they are in the adolescent stages of just starting to deal with their bodily changes and adjusting to what's around them? There's a reason why adolescents are termed as being in an unstable inbetween state and to undertake a serious commitment like marriage that might involve a consequence of dealing with a child? That's just heaping it on, no other way around it.
We gauge the age of marriage if the person is under our care and whether they are able to understand what it means and agree to it etc etc, if they are independent, they are obviously not as young. Hence, this entire issue of sex with 15 year old teens should be laid to rest.
-
But it totally doesn't matter what the laws are wherever you live. Those laws are totally man-made, thus stupid and non-divine.
False dichotomy. Just because a law is 'man-made' or 'un-divine', doesn't make it bad/wrong.
Punishing someone ( and who gave people the right to punish each other for stuff like that in the first place ) for asking a 17 year old girl, who, unless is very unique, does have the mental and physical maturity for sex, age doesn't matter, but then again, the majority is stupid.
Are you claiming all 17 year olds are physically and mentally mature for sex, irrespective of upbringing, experiences, etc? Irrespective with whom they are getting involved with? Please cite studies for this.
The majority of the world's age of consent is closer to 16 (and many much closer to 13) than it is to 18 with usually a loophole (i.e. both parties must be within a couple of years of each other). So your lust for 'rebelling against the majority' falls flat on the face of this quasi-hipster thing called "reality".
-
We should all be encouraging sex in wedlock. That is the upright way. And people do change when they find God. We are all born to different circumstances/societies which does affect our initial standards of morality (subjective, product of upbringing). Only when you find the truth do you align to the true balance - if you believe.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of God, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God graced you, so investigate carefully. God is expert over what you do.
-
Peace.
I am going to fight this injustice with or without any moral and or other suport by any of you. I have agood legal team already engaged. I am njot a danger to children, I never have been and I am not going to confirm to laws that treat me like I am.
By the way, the the junky street hooker who tried to rip me of that I raped didn't change a year later. She was still doing drugs and prostituting. Maybe some of you guys can really in suport of them. St kilda is the place
Thanks
-
We should all be encouraging sex in wedlock. That is the upright way. And people do change when they find God.
We are all born to different circumstances/societies which does affect our initial standards of morality (subjective, product of upbringing). Only when you find the truth do you align to the true balance - if you believe.Gross oversimplification, that is not the point. It is not even about the fact that people may change, which they can, sure. It's about those people admitting to "change" and justifying violent, unforgivable acts. If you are unsure, hey check out his latest post! Oh look she was still prostituting a year later! You don't support me? Oh you must support prostitutes! Textbook George Bush, 'you are either with us or you're with the terrorists' logic.
Again, a gross oversimplification; the world isn't black and white. It's not us vs them, peaceful vs disbeliever, nor rapist vs prostitute. I don't see anywhere where Ervin is being called a 'disbeliever', can you please find this reference for me?
I listened to the recording you posted of him with his psychiatrist(s) and frankly I was unequivocally creeped out. As previously pointed out, lots of 'you are all out to get me' stuff which is typical from schizophrenics and a very aggressive, self-serving attitude to match. When they ask him how he knows he is healed, of course he has no real answer; no independent observation necessary. If you justify heinous acts in any way, you have not changed, sorry. You don't go around talking about them, unprovoked, either and coming up with ridiculous excuses to rationalize them.
You are right, there is a balance to surmise at the truth and that balance doesn't involve having infinite blinders on.
-
Peace.
I am njot a danger to children, I never have been and I am not going to confirm to laws that treat me like I am.
Seem to be living in denial. Well, good luck with that.
By the way, the the junky street hooker who tried to rip me of that I raped didn't change a year later. She was still doing drugs and prostituting. Maybe some of you guys can really in suport of them. St kilda is the place
Thanks
It's not you vs THEM, the world doesn't revolve around you, nor is it you vs prostitutes/druggies. If you are truly sorry, stop rationalizing your unforgivable behavior. It doesn't matter who she was or what she did, you wronged her. Own up to it and stop coming up with excuses. Just because somebody doesn't 'support' you doesn't mean they support prostitutes. This is, seriously, elementary logic and we are somehow supposed to trust your self-diagnosis? Okay, man. Okay.
-
Yea I would have to agree with Jack there. If you go on rationalizing something like that, there is something seriously wrong with you mentally and spiritually, I am still heart broken over mistakes i made disrespecting my parents. And trying to rationalize rape after the fact is just twisted.
-
False dichotomy. Just because a law is 'man-made' or 'un-divine', doesn't make it bad/wrong.
Are you claiming all 17 year olds are physically and mentally mature for sex, irrespective of upbringing, experiences, etc? Irrespective with whom they are getting involved with? Please cite studies for this.
The majority of the world's age of consent is closer to 16 (and many much closer to 13) than it is to 18 with usually a loophole (i.e. both parties must be within a couple of years of each other). So your lust for 'rebelling against the majority' falls flat on the face of this quasi-hipster thing called "reality".
I see no reason why man made laws are right either. No reason whatsoever. Even if they are, who you believe in? Allah or man?
-
This isn't a competition between belief in God or man. Get that straight please. This is about the need to have some sort of structure; usually the end result of consensus and research as to the pros and cons for its growth, safety and benefit etc; to deal with the practical application of general principles which may be 'divine' in nature additionally. I don't see what the issue is that causes it to be such an outrage.
-
Thanks brother. Sometimes I think that a lots of brothers and sisters on the forum just wont to be like non believers so that they get accepted by the west. Personally, what God wants is much more important to me and I am ready to go prison for that. If they are just going with the flow and not with God, justice and fairnes then are they really Muslims or are they atheists materialists who just wont to live as comfortable and trouble free lives.
I am a true believer and I can confidently say that for my self. I can also say confidently that you are one as well. In the end only God knows everything aboput us, such as are we following his book and and sense of fairnes that he has instilled it in us or secular materialistic so called values. I believe that basic morality is inate and then there are some things that God wants from us on top of that.
By the way. I have asked some Quran alone Arabs about the interpretation of the Quran by the monotheist group and there are some wrong things in it wich means that they have fallen for a satans trap of trying to please the materialists version of justice wich is why I think its good to have another copy of the Quran by Abdel Haleem.
I supose since God is infinite than no matter how many people go to hell there is always going to be room for them. Thats how I reason why are there so many bad people who insist they are believers. I have just read the posts on Free minds and someone is ssaying that that tape prooves that I am paranoid and sick, so they are siding with psychiatrists drug pushers who would probably diegnose them as sick because of there "exsesive interest in religion". They would do it to everyone if they could.
Alhumdulilah brother. I either win in the end and have a good life or I sufer on the path of Allah and or die on the path of Allah InshAllah. I pray to God to giv me, you and all the true believers strenght in overcoming our nmb 1 enemy Shaytan and his followers.
I am going to mpost this letter on the Free Mindds forum as well.
Once again everyone. I am SORY to God and I am also sorry to my victims for hurting them. I don't think that sex outside marriage is alowable by the Quran. I haven't had sexual relations with a woman in aproximatelly eight years and I don't wont it unless I get married InshAllah. I think that if I murdered an inocent person you wouldn't judge me as much as you judge me for my sexual offending.
By the way I was in Australian military prison my self about twelwe years ago. I was in prison when I was fifteen years old over break and enter. But all that is in the past as now I am a believer. I believe that I will be responsible for my actions before God and I am ready now to do what it takes to deserve his mercy InshAllah.
Those of you who said that my crimes where unforgivable are obviously my enemy and unless you change your statement I don't want to be your brother because your statement is not in line with Islamic teaxchings but secular materialist so called values. Who are you not to forgive me. I don't need forgiveness from unforgiving so called Muslims.
Thanks
-
Once again an extremist opinion. Lots of brothers and sisters on the forum who want to be like non-believers so they get accepted by the west. What kind of nonsense reply to what's been discussed in the thread is this? It's a choice between God and the 'West'/'atheist materialists who want to live comfortable lives' when what's been said therein is nothing of the sort. And just who on earth is the post addressed to anyways?
Next comes an 'attack' on the monotheist group now in the form of a general statement. Oh because some 'Quran Alone Arabs' said it, they are trying to please the materialists version of 'justice', they are bad people. No response once again to most of what's raised on the thread...but lets just go out on a limb and vilify them anyways because that's the 'Islamic' thing to do.
A passing reference to Hell and the space available for 'certain' people and certainly, Ervin leaves no room for doubt exactly who these 'brothers and sisters' are. They are the ones who in his mind didn't offer him the blind solace and support that was expected. And of course an observation that they would be branded just as sick as him not because they might ACTUALLY have a mental disease like he apparently did, but because they spend time on a 'religious forum/quran'. Because that's what they do, the people in the white coats. They are out to get everyone.
A rousing morale boosting cry we see next, making sure TRUE believers are addressed. Him and those that support him being TRUE believers and the rest NON BELIEVERS who are going to HELL. Seen this at play on this forum alone, countless times. When things don't work out one's way, start making it out to be a battle between good and evil, God and Satan and of course, Believers and Non Believers.
You think wrong because most of what has been said on the thread inclusive of yourself has passed you by or has been deliberately/involuntarily blocked.
Why don't you give us a timeline plus details about each and everything once and for all so that you don't feel the need to post bits and pieces of personal history here and there? Yes we know it's all in the past. We get it.
This isn't about being a brother or sister, enemy or friend, heaven or hell. This isn't about God vs the evil West, Islam vs Secular Atheists/materialists or whatever else that can be dredged up as a rallying call for battle against. It's obvious that there will be no actual discussion on what has transpired on this thread at least from OP's side. Well it is what it is.
-
I am very sorry and pained for what has become of this thread.
Somewhere along the line it has taken the look of finding fault and showing attitudes that are not well explained nor well understood by those who read them.
I do not know whether Ervin could have taken a better decision or not, but he had already taken it. I think we should have stuck to that and proceed from there. Instead of that, the questi?n grew to general laws and offenses and how this or that was unreasonable. I can understand why that happenned, but I think we got away from the question that was raised by Ervin, which is understandable, because fortunately we are all feel strong about sexual crimes, but it is also understandable that it upset our brother, who came for support and got a new judgement or trial and things were surmised.
What brother Ervin wrote about the unfortunate woman (the whore, but still a woman, and an unfortunate one) who suffered his attack when he hadn't still become a believer may have sounded callous, but I do not think that it was taken at the reading end as thought out at the writing one. I do not think Ervin wanted to justify in any way what he did or not be charitable to the poor woman, still poorer if she hasn't got out the "business", and...
I am sorry for the way that has gone this thread and I trust and pray God that we all turn to Him and pray for wisdom.
We have to be able to get the best of people, from everybody, from those poor women who came in the way of Ervin, for people who live afraid of what might happen to them or their children, who may include also those poor women, for people who have found the worst in life and try very hard to find the best, like Ervin...
I am afraid this sounds too goodist and idealist and not down to earth, but that is the way I feel. We all coould have expressed ourselves better and asked some pointed questions before jumping to conclusions or could have done better in expressing our fears or sensitivities or strong views.
I still wish and encourage our brother Ervin to be strong and pure and to have compassion, more of he can, for everybody. It is very difficult for people who have not fallen in the punishing establishment mill to put themselves int he place of those who have. Or may be some of those who have written here in fact know a lot about it and therefore have spoken, I do not know, but what is inside the heads of people and what we get from their words some times may be quite different. Sometimes knowing too much also puts blinders.
May God forgive us all the pain we cause to others so many times inadvertently, and I am sorry if I have been unfair to anybody writing this message.
Let us calm down and may be go about it some other way.
Salaam
-
Huruf, I appreciate your kindness and idealism but we all have different ways of seeing the world and responding to it. Empathy is needed and should be tempered with the perception of realities. We all want things to have a good resolution, sometimes it takes time to get there especially when there are issues that people have to work through to get there.
Let me explain what happened on the thread
-Ervin wanted to know if his 'fight' was in an Islamic spirit but he had already made up his mind like on his other thread as to it being one.
-People responded with what it was he wanted to hear and it was all good.
-People responded with what he didn't want to hear and it took a tangential life of it's own; turning it into a battle between various unrelated/irrelevant issues.
Threads usually are organic like this, which is fine as long as they stay somewhere within the vicinity of what has actually been brought up and being discussed. It starts going off the deep end when irrelevance and lack of logic start showing up. Why are you sorry for the way it's gone? Who knows the way it's gone may actually help him and/or others to better understand.
-
You keep using that word; I do not think that word means what you think it means. Do get back to us when you have an actual, cogent argument.
Then you're thinking wrong. Have fun serving the government.
-
Peace all,
I guess we can only see what the judge thinks now. And Ervin has got his answers. I believe he should be admired for putting his trust in God.4238 And those who have responded to their Lord, and they hold the salat, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give.
-
Then you're thinking wrong. Have fun serving the government.
Do you even have an argument here? Or do these irrelevant statements serve a purpose beyond the evident?
Peace all,
I guess we can only see what the judge thinks now. And Ervin has got his answers. I believe he should be admired for putting his trust in God.Yep, lets look on the bright side of life.
What bothers me on this here thread besides the obvious is the whole look for what we think is best in a pile of trash attitude deliberately ignoring everything else in the heap. The mollycoddling approach whilst walking on eggshells because if there's a confrontation and we are perceived as having 'annoyed' the person asking for 'help and support', we are the worst type of people and must ask forgiveness from God for this 'grave sin'. Like we are dealing with children rather than with adults. The way we turn a blind eye to normally weird and offensive statements (they never happened, must've been a misunderstanding, lost in translation, didn't mean it really, even though they repeat and up the ante with each successive post) and continue with the big happy family mindset.
This is a forum for discussion, when something is put up for discussion voluntarily, you will have ALL sorts of opinions on it. The good, the bad and the ugly depending on perspective. I wouldn't want an imposition on the types of responses. This is how we learn, from criticism and from 'support', if we want to. It shouldn't be restricted to 'well, i'd only like to see x type of responses because I think that's really nice n goodly'. Of course, if someone wants to see only a certain type of response, should be clarified from the start, so that we know what the hot buttons are. And whether or not to push them.
As far as the OP and his plight goes
Good luck!
Sincerely,
From a 'non believer'/materialist/atheist/evil west type person who wants to live a comfortable life pandering to Satan'. -
Then you're thinking wrong. Have fun serving the government.
Correction. You are not thinking at all. You repeatedly commit logical fallacies. Has nothing to do with the government and you know it. Stick to the topic and actually respond to the arguments. If you don't actually have a logical argument, as you you have demonstrated repeatedly, quit wasting our time. The trolling act was cute at first, now its just tiresome and bland.